If players respawn in my hypothetical PD world their not going to quit. They can stillr respawn X more times. If they Permadie they probably still won't quit because the game is not designed around only building their character. The world is dynamic and controlled by players. If a player dies, all the NPCs he hired are still there, all the tamed monsters are still there, all the structures he built or help build are still there, all the undead guards he created are still there etc etc. There should be MORE holding a player to a game then JUST their Character.
i have a question about this BalanceFX. What if i lose all my lives from this subclass A system (all 100 lives aka Trails of Ascension is adapting that I think)- well all that cool stuff i owned belonged to my other chaarcter that now has a statue probably built where he dived to preserve his memory
Well- the new toon i create- can i give him the same name? also, can my new toon inherit the kingdom my old avatar helped to build?
one thing that I heard EvE online does is if a guild loses a titan their wreckage is forever left there hanging in space for all time. would be kinda neat if this could happen because im thinking its gonna be rare when players let their toon die perhaps
I dunno its still sorta hard to imagine losing my stuff but i think I see where you're going with this now. ive read your blogs etc so slowly lights are flickering on. I'm thinking u must have a dynamic world for this to really work like you say
that way there is no repitition that you have to do after u die and come back
Its sad so many ppl jump into this discussion w/o reading one word of your blog about the different PD systems. when i get more time I'll read more of it btw can you link me to the original place where u posted that article (your rebuttal)?
What I've never really gotten is exactly what permadeath advocates really want. On one had, you talk about how the risk of death makes things meaningful instead of just some cheap respawn, but then argue that it should only take a couple of hours to have a character to replace the old one. How exactly does a 'permadeath' that takes an evening's play to recover from really differ from a game where you have an XP debt and so take an evening's play to recover from a death? You talk about being able to deal a lasting defeat to a foe, being able to strike down the evil overlord or archrival. Yet at the same time, you want player-created content which, with the aforementioned quick recover, means that the evil overlord's replacement (with a new name but the same player) is on the scene instantly, and is back up to his old strength after an evening. There appears to be a fundamental contradiction in what you want.
I was advocating a 3 month ramp up from noob to veteran in terms of in game skills with a reduction of disparity of power between a noob and a veteran with the ideal ratio of 1:3. (Ie a veteran is about 3X as powerful in terns of their in game avater as a noob avatar) So essentially I should ask whats your argument?
If you were to simmer my argument down to the grinds you would be focusing on a game where WHAT YOU DO in game is more important then your skill in Magery or your Runed Totem staff.
IE... A complete change of the fundamental mechanics of the game.
You however have percieved a contridication in that you think an expert could in a single night not only kill off another player with 100 lives but also that the player killed off could get back to where they were in a single night.
Your logic is flawwed and not representative of anything I said. You can attempt to twist what I said but facts are permenant things. Even a noob could pose a challenge to an oldbie but not to a skilled oldbie. These are fundamentals a PD game must live by to be successful.
To more concisely address your point, it is possible that a player leading an aberrant play style that other players sought to end could roll a new character and act the same way and perhaps take up the same role as they did before. The flaw in your logic lies in the fact that the world is controlled by the players and if someone managed to Permadie chances are those that put them in that state will put them there again. Permadeath is not about PUNISHING players, its about giving players a way to control the world they live in.
The server should be run by players and controlled by players and they need the tools to do so.
So I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about Guild Wars and I was telling him how much cooler the game would be with a "hardcore" option like in Diablo 2. For those of you that don't know, hardcore mode in Diablo 2 was where you kept your character on the server and when he / she died... that was it. Being a veteran Rogue-like player, this kind of thing is my bag baby!
So anyway, the conversation shifted to the old P2P vs. Item shop thing and then it hit me. Rather than sell items in F2P games, why not sell characters? The game would be free, but you'd have to pay something like $5 for a character and once they were gone that would be it. Think of it as an arcade game. You pay for X number of lives and when their gone... well, you had your fun now didn't you? The difference here is that you get on life per. It could last for 5 years or 5 minutes depending on how well you actually play.
I'm also not seeing to many downsides to this idea. Here are a few advantages:
Gold selling won't be as big of a deal because who wants to pay cash for something you're just one bad decision away from losing forever?
Grind will be no more. Since the player is paying per character rather than per month or for perks to make the game less boring, developers will be inclined to make the game more challenging. Imagine a game that holds your attention every minute that you're actually playing it! When you threaten to kill the l337 speaking asshat that's making everyone miserable, it'll actually hold some weight. Yeah, he can just buy a new character but most people don't have access to an unlimited amount of $5 bills. I'm thinking that you could actually sell $5 cards (kinda like phone cards) to sell characters with. You could actually have the games web site on the cards to keep from all the packaging overhead. This also keeps you from needing to give out your Credit Card information online. I've never really been comfortable with using that information online. Cash is always better IMHO. $5 is totally within even the tightest budget and that can last as long as you're able to play.
No more level cap! Most people aren't going to make it past a certain point anyway.
And the rest is just the standard arguments in favor of permadeath (achievements mean something, adds tension, is the default condition of human experience, etc.). I'm not sure if this would be the best way to charge for an MMORPG, but I'd bet good money that someone will probably try at least once within the next five years or so. The system has actually proven in the arcades of old. This would also be great for indie setups.
at any rate.... It's just an idea....
There arent enough hard core players anymore to make perma-death a good path to follow for mmo creators. Buying characters? Buying items? Good mmo's dont have either. Not alot of people would be willing to play a game where if they get ganked/gangbanged/ or make one bad choice, they will have to pay money to get another char. Also, how fast do you think people would receive their characters? If the game had a big population it cant be very fast. Unless the company has a sh!t load of workers.
If players respawn in my hypothetical PD world their not going to quit. They can stillr respawn X more times. If they Permadie they probably still won't quit because the game is not designed around only building their character. The world is dynamic and controlled by players. If a player dies, all the NPCs he hired are still there, all the tamed monsters are still there, all the structures he built or help build are still there, all the undead guards he created are still there etc etc. There should be MORE holding a player to a game then JUST their Character.
i have a question about this BalanceFX. What if i lose all my lives from this subclass A system (all 100 lives aka Trails of Ascension is adapting that I think)- well all that cool stuff i owned belonged to my other chaarcter that now has a statue probably built where he dived to preserve his memory
Well- the new toon i create- can i give him the same name? also, can my new toon inherit the kingdom my old avatar helped to build?
one thing that I heard EvE online does is if a guild loses a titan their wreckage is forever left there hanging in space for all time. would be kinda neat if this could happen because im thinking its gonna be rare when players let their toon die perhaps
I dunno its still sorta hard to imagine losing my stuff but i think I see where you're going with this now. ive read your blogs etc so slowly lights are flickering on. I'm thinking u must have a dynamic world for this to really work like you say
that way there is no repitition that you have to do after u die and come back
Its sad so many ppl jump into this discussion w/o reading one word of your blog about the different PD systems. when i get more time I'll read more of it btw can you link me to the original place where u posted that article (your rebuttal)?
vajuras, yes in theory you could have the same name. (Perhaps we should lock the exact name choice for 48 hours... Its a good question)
I equate it to the real world, what if you met someone named George Walker Bush. Would you have predefined ideas about him? Would you be able to seperate this person from the actual president of the United States?
In a MMORPG I would say you dont have the means to distinguish them. In the system I advocate... no floating names at all... it may be even harder... but it also solves the 'Can I have the same Name?' question.
I'll expand a bit. First off, in the system I advocate no one, not even monsters have floating names. If a dark skinned elf attacks you then you would see in your combat display a loose description of the player that attacked you combined with the effect. You would likely overlook that since the effect should be graphically readily appearant to you.
The system I advocate is an intro system similar to real life. If someone tells you their name, your character will always know that name. Whether or not that is the characters real name is really a problem for that character to keep track of and meaningless to the game. If you see that character again there is a 99% chance that you will remember them as that name. (All with in game rulesets) However, if that character has gone out of their way to disguise themselves, perhaps you wont recognize them. You can however, if you as a player discern who that person is, label that disguised version as a paticular name and address them in anyway you wish. If that player is similarly disguised in the future and you have thus labeled them you would see them that way again.
The system is called an intro system.
Now for true accountibility, there are magical ways to discern a persons true name. You could also have spell that puts a magical aura of a color you choose around someone or a hex that causes an invisible symbol to float above their head that only mages could see. Doing so would allow you track someone despite their disguise and possible without their knowledge.
There is also the possibilites of tatoos etc etc.
Im only taking this tangent to the point that there are ways to track a players true name if neccesary. That tracking would be done by players and enforced by players.
As far as inheritance. I guess it would really depend on what you did. Imagine you had a son and that son, upon your death, automatically inherited all of your knowledge. Your son would have to work a bit to become as good as his old man in game, but all the knowledge, you as a player had transfers.
Therefore if your dad opened a bank account only your dad had accessed to and secured it by true name then there would be no way for the son to access that account and after X days or months, the bank (Which is player run) gets to keep everything invested in that account. (Perhaps they have to contract a mage to divine the person that opened the account has really passed on.... Passed on could mean permadeath or not logging into the world for X time.)
However if the dad opened a Safe deposit box that had a key to access and he duplicated the key and buried it somewhere only he the player could ever find then when he rerolled he could go there, get the key, etc etc.
Same thing with building a house or a keep. If you die the house and keep are still there. If you dont claim ownership perhaps someone will bash the door and take ownership by changing the locks. There is little to stop you from challenging that claim and if your dad hired guards perhaps they respond to a special phrase or keyword.
The whole point is to put the entire world in players hands. They hire and control the npcs. They make the quests, siege the cities and run the gamut in their involvement. If you want to be a forest ranger that protects the forest then play that role. Stake out your claim, post signs, kill people trying to chop down or burn down your trees. Warn them and interact with them. Set traps. Hire guards. Charm treants. Etc etc etc...
Whatever you decide to do in the world you should be able to try to do and it should have a real effect on the world. Your actions and what you do in game should mean more then your skill in magery and your uber armor.
Its a complete refocus of the game that is scary for producers because the world would be controlled and crafted by players. (Paying customers who should be entitled to atleast that!)
Granted this is all just theory that I would flesh out more over time, but the whole can I have the same name is a good question to think about. I try to picture what would happen in real life circa 550 AD. And then add magic in terms of technology we could have today.
People sometimes want something so bad, they become blind to any opposite needs than others can have, because they would be agaist what You needs are. There is allways different needs in different people and there isn't right or wrong, just a opinion.
Originally posted by BalanceFx You can attempt to twist what I said
Or I could be talking in general terms about things said by multiple people and not one specific quote from you. Maybe you'd find more converts to your side if you responded calmly to people trying to converse with you instead of going on rants and accusing them of twisting what you said.
To more concisely address your point, it is possible that a player leading an aberrant play style that other players sought to end could roll a new character and act the same way and perhaps take up the same role as they did before.
It is not only possible, it's completely expected. If character Bob leads the BOB empire, then mike successfully assassinates Bob, why is the player of Bob going to abandon the friends he has running his empire, the website and vent server they use to communicate outside of game, and why would they want to be rid of a leader that's been leading them successfully? You're trying to act like this is some vague theoretical thing that might happen, but it's exactly what I would expect people to do.
The flaw in your logic lies in the fact that the world is controlled by the players and if someone managed to Permadie chances are those that put them in that state will put them there again.
It's not permanent death if you have to do it multiple times to make it stick. How exactly is forcing the player to be BobJr after a death and play for 60 hours to get his new character as good as the old one (5 hours a week, 12 weeks was your time figure) instead of 6 in another game so fundamentally different? If Eve increased the cost of ships such that replacing a high-end ship would take a player 5 hours a week for 3 months to replace and required that each clone have a new name, would that qualify as permadeath?
I don't care about whether or not to call whatever he does in the 60 hours 'grinding', or whether the activity that occurs is a 'punishment', that's just silly semantics games.
There arent enough hard core players anymore to make perma-death a good path to follow for mmo creators. Buying characters? Buying items? Good mmo's dont have either. Not alot of people would be willing to play a game where if they get ganked/gangbanged/ or make one bad choice, they will have to pay money to get another char. Also, how fast do you think people would receive their characters? If the game had a big population it cant be very fast. Unless the company has a sh!t load of workers.
Have you taken a survey to see how many "hardcore" players there are? Neither have I, but I'm pretty certain that there are enough people that want permadeath that a niche game by a small indie setup could be marginally profitable.
As for "good" MMOs not selling items or characters, I can count all the "good" MMOs I've ever played on one hand. Here's the list:
Eve Online
City of Heroes
Guild Wars
What's sad is that one of those isn't even an MMO. I thought about putting Space Cowboy up there, but it's a little too grindy.
I agree that the price will probably be too high if the game is set too hard, so I'm thinking about $1 per life. For $3 you get two respawns on your character. I figure that if you spent $15 in respawns AND you had access to teleport scrolls that could get you out of danger quick AND it was possible for someone in your party to rez you (or carry your body back to town where it could be rezed), then the price would be roughly the same as a subscription MMO, plus you would still have the possibility of being permanently killed.
I'm thinking that you would have to open a free account with the game and when you buy either another character or more respawns, they would be added to that account. In the case of a new character, a new character slot would be open for the player to create a new one. In the case of respawns, I figure that there would be tokens that the character would carry and that could also be automatically placed in the character's inventory. Either way, the process would be largely automated with the staff only tracking down bugs in the distribution system.
There arent enough hard core players anymore to make perma-death a good path to follow for mmo creators. Buying characters? Buying items? Good mmo's dont have either. Not alot of people would be willing to play a game where if they get ganked/gangbanged/ or make one bad choice, they will have to pay money to get another char. Also, how fast do you think people would receive their characters? If the game had a big population it cant be very fast. Unless the company has a sh!t load of workers.
Have you taken a survey to see how many "hardcore" players there are? Neither have I, but I'm pretty certain that there are enough people that want permadeath that a niche game by a small indie setup could be marginally profitable.
As for "good" MMOs not selling items or characters, I can count all the "good" MMOs I've ever played on one hand. Here's the list:
Eve Online
City of Heroes
Guild Wars
What's sad is that one of those isn't even an MMO. I thought about putting Space Cowboy up there, but it's a little too grindy.
I agree that the price will probably be too high if the game is set too hard, so I'm thinking about $1 per life. For $3 you get two respawns on your character. I figure that if you spent $15 in respawns AND you had access to teleport scrolls that could get you out of danger quick AND it was possible for someone in your party to rez you (or carry your body back to town where it could be rezed), then the price would be roughly the same as a subscription MMO, plus you would still have the possibility of being permanently killed.
I'm thinking that you would have to open a free account with the game and when you buy either another character or more respawns, they would be added to that account. In the case of a new character, a new character slot would be open for the player to create a new one. In the case of respawns, I figure that there would be tokens that the character would carry and that could also be automatically placed in the character's inventory. Either way, the process would be largely automated with the staff only tracking down bugs in the distribution system.
That pretty much cover it? You havent played many good MMO's then, have you? There is no point in making a survey, its only common sense that people would not want their chars, on which they have probably wasted hours of their lives on, to suddenly disappear after they die, and that group of people is larger than the ones who want everyone to play a hardcore rpg where if you die you suddenly lose all that progress and time you wasted. Perma-death wont be a common feature in MMO's anytime soon, but if you need the feature so badly just delete your char every time you die and create a new one. That way you dont have to pay for a new char and you can do it as many times as you want.
Or I could be talking in general terms about things said by multiple people and not one specific quote from you. Maybe you'd find more converts to your side if you responded calmly to people trying to converse with you instead of going on rants and accusing them of twisting what you said.
To more concisely address your point, it is possible that a player leading an aberrant play style that other players sought to end could roll a new character and act the same way and perhaps take up the same role as they did before.
It is not only possible, it's completely expected. If character Bob leads the BOB empire, then mike successfully assassinates Bob, why is the player of Bob going to abandon the friends he has running his empire, the website and vent server they use to communicate outside of game, and why would they want to be rid of a leader that's been leading them successfully? You're trying to act like this is some vague theoretical thing that might happen, but it's exactly what I would expect people to do.
The flaw in your logic lies in the fact that the world is controlled by the players and if someone managed to Permadie chances are those that put them in that state will put them there again.
It's not permanent death if you have to do it multiple times to make it stick. How exactly is forcing the player to be BobJr after a death and play for 60 hours to get his new character as good as the old one (5 hours a week, 12 weeks was your time figure) instead of 6 in another game so fundamentally different? If Eve increased the cost of ships such that replacing a high-end ship would take a player 5 hours a week for 3 months to replace and required that each clone have a new name, would that qualify as permadeath?
I don't care about whether or not to call whatever he does in the 60 hours 'grinding', or whether the activity that occurs is a 'punishment', that's just silly semantics games.
If the players killed him off once why wouldnt they do it again? Would the player consistently attempting to play a role in the game that consistently ends up with him rapidly becoming permadead continue to play that role?
The answers are easy to guess at but at the same time almost irrelavant. The world would be crafted and controlled by players.
Regarding your 60 hour grind speech. Perhaps a pro could do it in 30... who knows. We would definitely have to balance it, BUT if a skilled player started over new and could pose a challenge to a veteran the disparity of power is greatly reduced and grinding is optional. Also consider that it takes a while to permadie.
Again... Think about the system, It would be very rare to see one player kill off another player permenantly in a single night.
Comments
i have a question about this BalanceFX. What if i lose all my lives from this subclass A system (all 100 lives aka Trails of Ascension is adapting that I think)- well all that cool stuff i owned belonged to my other chaarcter that now has a statue probably built where he dived to preserve his memory
Well- the new toon i create- can i give him the same name? also, can my new toon inherit the kingdom my old avatar helped to build?
one thing that I heard EvE online does is if a guild loses a titan their wreckage is forever left there hanging in space for all time. would be kinda neat if this could happen because im thinking its gonna be rare when players let their toon die perhaps
I dunno its still sorta hard to imagine losing my stuff but i think I see where you're going with this now. ive read your blogs etc so slowly lights are flickering on. I'm thinking u must have a dynamic world for this to really work like you say
that way there is no repitition that you have to do after u die and come back
Its sad so many ppl jump into this discussion w/o reading one word of your blog about the different PD systems. when i get more time I'll read more of it btw can you link me to the original place where u posted that article (your rebuttal)?
If you were to simmer my argument down to the grinds you would be focusing on a game where WHAT YOU DO in game is more important then your skill in Magery or your Runed Totem staff.
IE... A complete change of the fundamental mechanics of the game.
You however have percieved a contridication in that you think an expert could in a single night not only kill off another player with 100 lives but also that the player killed off could get back to where they were in a single night.
Your logic is flawwed and not representative of anything I said. You can attempt to twist what I said but facts are permenant things. Even a noob could pose a challenge to an oldbie but not to a skilled oldbie. These are fundamentals a PD game must live by to be successful.
To more concisely address your point, it is possible that a player leading an aberrant play style that other players sought to end could roll a new character and act the same way and perhaps take up the same role as they did before. The flaw in your logic lies in the fact that the world is controlled by the players and if someone managed to Permadie chances are those that put them in that state will put them there again. Permadeath is not about PUNISHING players, its about giving players a way to control the world they live in.
The server should be run by players and controlled by players and they need the tools to do so.
i have a question about this BalanceFX. What if i lose all my lives from this subclass A system (all 100 lives aka Trails of Ascension is adapting that I think)- well all that cool stuff i owned belonged to my other chaarcter that now has a statue probably built where he dived to preserve his memory
Well- the new toon i create- can i give him the same name? also, can my new toon inherit the kingdom my old avatar helped to build?
one thing that I heard EvE online does is if a guild loses a titan their wreckage is forever left there hanging in space for all time. would be kinda neat if this could happen because im thinking its gonna be rare when players let their toon die perhaps
I dunno its still sorta hard to imagine losing my stuff but i think I see where you're going with this now. ive read your blogs etc so slowly lights are flickering on. I'm thinking u must have a dynamic world for this to really work like you say
that way there is no repitition that you have to do after u die and come back
Its sad so many ppl jump into this discussion w/o reading one word of your blog about the different PD systems. when i get more time I'll read more of it btw can you link me to the original place where u posted that article (your rebuttal)?
vajuras, yes in theory you could have the same name. (Perhaps we should lock the exact name choice for 48 hours... Its a good question)I equate it to the real world, what if you met someone named George Walker Bush. Would you have predefined ideas about him? Would you be able to seperate this person from the actual president of the United States?
In a MMORPG I would say you dont have the means to distinguish them. In the system I advocate... no floating names at all... it may be even harder... but it also solves the 'Can I have the same Name?' question.
I'll expand a bit. First off, in the system I advocate no one, not even monsters have floating names. If a dark skinned elf attacks you then you would see in your combat display a loose description of the player that attacked you combined with the effect. You would likely overlook that since the effect should be graphically readily appearant to you.
The system I advocate is an intro system similar to real life. If someone tells you their name, your character will always know that name. Whether or not that is the characters real name is really a problem for that character to keep track of and meaningless to the game. If you see that character again there is a 99% chance that you will remember them as that name. (All with in game rulesets) However, if that character has gone out of their way to disguise themselves, perhaps you wont recognize them. You can however, if you as a player discern who that person is, label that disguised version as a paticular name and address them in anyway you wish. If that player is similarly disguised in the future and you have thus labeled them you would see them that way again.
The system is called an intro system.
Now for true accountibility, there are magical ways to discern a persons true name. You could also have spell that puts a magical aura of a color you choose around someone or a hex that causes an invisible symbol to float above their head that only mages could see. Doing so would allow you track someone despite their disguise and possible without their knowledge.
There is also the possibilites of tatoos etc etc.
Im only taking this tangent to the point that there are ways to track a players true name if neccesary. That tracking would be done by players and enforced by players.
As far as inheritance. I guess it would really depend on what you did. Imagine you had a son and that son, upon your death, automatically inherited all of your knowledge. Your son would have to work a bit to become as good as his old man in game, but all the knowledge, you as a player had transfers.
Therefore if your dad opened a bank account only your dad had accessed to and secured it by true name then there would be no way for the son to access that account and after X days or months, the bank (Which is player run) gets to keep everything invested in that account. (Perhaps they have to contract a mage to divine the person that opened the account has really passed on.... Passed on could mean permadeath or not logging into the world for X time.)
However if the dad opened a Safe deposit box that had a key to access and he duplicated the key and buried it somewhere only he the player could ever find then when he rerolled he could go there, get the key, etc etc.
Same thing with building a house or a keep. If you die the house and keep are still there. If you dont claim ownership perhaps someone will bash the door and take ownership by changing the locks. There is little to stop you from challenging that claim and if your dad hired guards perhaps they respond to a special phrase or keyword.
The whole point is to put the entire world in players hands. They hire and control the npcs. They make the quests, siege the cities and run the gamut in their involvement. If you want to be a forest ranger that protects the forest then play that role. Stake out your claim, post signs, kill people trying to chop down or burn down your trees. Warn them and interact with them. Set traps. Hire guards. Charm treants. Etc etc etc...
Whatever you decide to do in the world you should be able to try to do and it should have a real effect on the world. Your actions and what you do in game should mean more then your skill in magery and your uber armor.
Its a complete refocus of the game that is scary for producers because the world would be controlled and crafted by players. (Paying customers who should be entitled to atleast that!)
Granted this is all just theory that I would flesh out more over time, but the whole can I have the same name is a good question to think about. I try to picture what would happen in real life circa 550 AD. And then add magic in terms of technology we could have today.
Oh the link to my rebuttal is on Damion's blog here: http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=871#comments
People sometimes want something so bad, they become blind to any opposite needs than others can have, because they would be agaist what You needs are. There is allways different needs in different people and there isn't right or wrong, just a opinion.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
Or I could be talking in general terms about things said by multiple people and not one specific quote from you. Maybe you'd find more converts to your side if you responded calmly to people trying to converse with you instead of going on rants and accusing them of twisting what you said.
It is not only possible, it's completely expected. If character Bob leads the BOB empire, then mike successfully assassinates Bob, why is the player of Bob going to abandon the friends he has running his empire, the website and vent server they use to communicate outside of game, and why would they want to be rid of a leader that's been leading them successfully? You're trying to act like this is some vague theoretical thing that might happen, but it's exactly what I would expect people to do.
It's not permanent death if you have to do it multiple times to make it stick. How exactly is forcing the player to be BobJr after a death and play for 60 hours to get his new character as good as the old one (5 hours a week, 12 weeks was your time figure) instead of 6 in another game so fundamentally different? If Eve increased the cost of ships such that replacing a high-end ship would take a player 5 hours a week for 3 months to replace and required that each clone have a new name, would that qualify as permadeath?
I don't care about whether or not to call whatever he does in the 60 hours 'grinding', or whether the activity that occurs is a 'punishment', that's just silly semantics games.
Have you taken a survey to see how many "hardcore" players there are? Neither have I, but I'm pretty certain that there are enough people that want permadeath that a niche game by a small indie setup could be marginally profitable.
As for "good" MMOs not selling items or characters, I can count all the "good" MMOs I've ever played on one hand. Here's the list:
Eve Online
City of Heroes
Guild Wars
What's sad is that one of those isn't even an MMO. I thought about putting Space Cowboy up there, but it's a little too grindy.
I agree that the price will probably be too high if the game is set too hard, so I'm thinking about $1 per life. For $3 you get two respawns on your character. I figure that if you spent $15 in respawns AND you had access to teleport scrolls that could get you out of danger quick AND it was possible for someone in your party to rez you (or carry your body back to town where it could be rezed), then the price would be roughly the same as a subscription MMO, plus you would still have the possibility of being permanently killed.
I'm thinking that you would have to open a free account with the game and when you buy either another character or more respawns, they would be added to that account. In the case of a new character, a new character slot would be open for the player to create a new one. In the case of respawns, I figure that there would be tokens that the character would carry and that could also be automatically placed in the character's inventory. Either way, the process would be largely automated with the staff only tracking down bugs in the distribution system.
That pretty much cover it?
Have you taken a survey to see how many "hardcore" players there are? Neither have I, but I'm pretty certain that there are enough people that want permadeath that a niche game by a small indie setup could be marginally profitable.
As for "good" MMOs not selling items or characters, I can count all the "good" MMOs I've ever played on one hand. Here's the list:
Eve Online
City of Heroes
Guild Wars
What's sad is that one of those isn't even an MMO. I thought about putting Space Cowboy up there, but it's a little too grindy.
I agree that the price will probably be too high if the game is set too hard, so I'm thinking about $1 per life. For $3 you get two respawns on your character. I figure that if you spent $15 in respawns AND you had access to teleport scrolls that could get you out of danger quick AND it was possible for someone in your party to rez you (or carry your body back to town where it could be rezed), then the price would be roughly the same as a subscription MMO, plus you would still have the possibility of being permanently killed.
I'm thinking that you would have to open a free account with the game and when you buy either another character or more respawns, they would be added to that account. In the case of a new character, a new character slot would be open for the player to create a new one. In the case of respawns, I figure that there would be tokens that the character would carry and that could also be automatically placed in the character's inventory. Either way, the process would be largely automated with the staff only tracking down bugs in the distribution system.
That pretty much cover it? You havent played many good MMO's then, have you? There is no point in making a survey, its only common sense that people would not want their chars, on which they have probably wasted hours of their lives on, to suddenly disappear after they die, and that group of people is larger than the ones who want everyone to play a hardcore rpg where if you die you suddenly lose all that progress and time you wasted. Perma-death wont be a common feature in MMO's anytime soon, but if you need the feature so badly just delete your char every time you die and create a new one. That way you dont have to pay for a new char and you can do it as many times as you want.
Or I could be talking in general terms about things said by multiple people and not one specific quote from you. Maybe you'd find more converts to your side if you responded calmly to people trying to converse with you instead of going on rants and accusing them of twisting what you said.
It is not only possible, it's completely expected. If character Bob leads the BOB empire, then mike successfully assassinates Bob, why is the player of Bob going to abandon the friends he has running his empire, the website and vent server they use to communicate outside of game, and why would they want to be rid of a leader that's been leading them successfully? You're trying to act like this is some vague theoretical thing that might happen, but it's exactly what I would expect people to do.
It's not permanent death if you have to do it multiple times to make it stick. How exactly is forcing the player to be BobJr after a death and play for 60 hours to get his new character as good as the old one (5 hours a week, 12 weeks was your time figure) instead of 6 in another game so fundamentally different? If Eve increased the cost of ships such that replacing a high-end ship would take a player 5 hours a week for 3 months to replace and required that each clone have a new name, would that qualify as permadeath?
I don't care about whether or not to call whatever he does in the 60 hours 'grinding', or whether the activity that occurs is a 'punishment', that's just silly semantics games.
If the players killed him off once why wouldnt they do it again? Would the player consistently attempting to play a role in the game that consistently ends up with him rapidly becoming permadead continue to play that role?
The answers are easy to guess at but at the same time almost irrelavant. The world would be crafted and controlled by players.
Regarding your 60 hour grind speech. Perhaps a pro could do it in 30... who knows. We would definitely have to balance it, BUT if a skilled player started over new and could pose a challenge to a veteran the disparity of power is greatly reduced and grinding is optional. Also consider that it takes a while to permadie.
Again... Think about the system, It would be very rare to see one player kill off another player permenantly in a single night.