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Why do companys keep making mmos for the next gen computer then asking why the population is so low?
sctt888
Member Posts: 128
KK EQ2 came, EQ2 was very computer intensive at that time, not alot of people could play it, and if you could it definatly wasnt enjoyable. SO people flocked to WoW a fun good game where graphics were okay and not computer intensive. Vanguard comes out, VERRRRY computer sensitive. If you can run vanguard most of the time it wont be enjoyable low FPS etc. Then people are like it feels so empty, wheres the population. Because the majority of people dont have the money to upgrade and put down for big upgrade to allow for the game to be even somewhat enjoyable.
TO my suprise companys STILL are not learning from this mistake, take GW/EVE and even LOTRO LOTRO graphics are fantastic and you dont need a godlike computer to run it, matter fact you dont need a GREAT comp to enjoy it yet its graphics are outstanding.
Then i hear its just like a console game if i cant play a PS3 game with nice graphics on a PS2 yes this is true but we are talking about one MMO game,why pay alot of money to upgrade when i can simply go to the next best thing with good graphics and not requiring a god like computer.
This was vanguards downfall it was too advanced for its time.
Comments
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I really completely agree and to this day believe had the SOE/EQ2 team put asside this sillly notion of developing "next-gen" graphics in an MMO, it would have been a much greater success and a better game for it. The developement time alone could have been used to really put some solid effort into gameplay mechanics instead of crazy amounts of textures and mapping algorithims.
I'm really befuddled by this bahavior from developers and production teams. I understand the need and want to make a really good looking game, after all that's what get's the press but IMHO, SWG looked amazing certainly wasn't "next-gen" at around the time of EQ2 release.
Vanguard also falls under this umbrella for me. I hasten to say that even with all the kafuffle these people put up over these supposed next gen graphics, I really don't find them all that impressive.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
I am not rich by any stretch but I do pretty decent. Our household is dual income and we don't have children. My wife and I were both going to put a couple hundred dollars into our rigs to play vanguard when it released but in the end we decided against it. 300 bucks per computer... Now, I look at that as gas for a month and I think a lot more people are starting to look at things the same way. Hmmmm, I can put 300 bucks in my rig to play a new game, or I can play a current gen title and stick that 300 bucks in my savings account. Maybe I am just cheap but I tend to not upgrade until I actually NEED to.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
/agree
Besides the Wii, what games/consoles of the "next generation" have really been anything but updated graphics? True, many hit PC, XBOX360 and PS3 games have updated physics engines, advanced AI, etc... but again, besides the Wii, who's really been thinking outside the box?
It's the lack of communication with the people.
Devs Think They know Everything and we just follow.
Blizzard nuked that idea by handing out a simple yet amazing game.
And yes we saw the same with the Wii
Point being is that "Good" and "Flashy" isn't the same.
"New, exciting and polished" is what sells, the Devs just don't know that..
I got a friend who's just the type of gamer the Devs want. He HATED Cameo for the X360, until he put it on a HD monitor and then all of a sudden it was great.
Needless to say, he's a minority. And the Devs should get a grip soon enough.
"Flashy" BAD "Polished" GOOD. K?
Simple enough, being Unique takes you a long way. Looking like the other I don't know how many clones won't.
WoW is unique in style, WoW is the biggest.
VG - SW:G - EQ2 - L2 and many many more, look just about the same.
It's not about "Ooh look at This flashy new race!"
it's about "Hey, that's not Van Gogh, that's obviously a Picasso" that makes people come.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
I agree with the OP and with the good folks pointing out that next gen graphics do not equal next gen gameplay. To that I would add the observation that there's something to be said for good art direction and a solid sense of style. Even if you hate the cartoony look of WoW, it is true to what the other Warcraft games looked like and there was a lot of depth and detail in that world without requiring most people to upgrade. Likewise, Lineage 2 still *looks* pretty, even if you don't like the gameplay, and it does it on very low specs.
Some people want to use every bell and whistle they've got available to them. That's really understandable. Maybe games need to be able to scale better, to include people like me who are grouchy and stingy about upgrades and also to please the guy who just dropped $500 on his new video card so he can see the sweat rolling off his character's brow.
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This is where I draw the line: __________________.
LoTRO actually requires a pretty strong computer to play at the high level settings, but the low level settings that I normally run at still look and play real smooth...so they made the game accessable for most everyone....
But I think VG just might have been a bit ahead of their time...I think AOC, WAR and other new games are going to require more of our hardware and we're going to have to upgrade to play the games....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One of the FEW reasons to play PC games over platform titles is graphics potential along with MMO's and FPS shooters. Asking devs & publishers to STOP pushing the graphics envelope in PC gaming is like cutting you're own throat.
EQII circa 2004 & Vanguard are examples of bad optimization and coding that didn't allow scalability & nothing more. let's not forget both Lineage II & Guild Wars of the same time period produced excellent graphics that didn't require the latest greatest system to run. That's also the main reason I don't buy the bad WOW graphic apologists excuses either. The next evolution is bringing cutting edge game play, AI, up to the level of cutting edge graphics.
NO...the answer isn't to take steps backwards graphic wise it's to move MMO's forward in ALL aspects.
Let's also be honest here, If you're still running a circa 2003 rig in 2007 and crying about system reqs you need to either start saving you're money or move along.
Technology has always and will continue to move forward (as well it should)
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Whilst the constant upgrading issue is annoying it is, to some extent at least, necassary.
However with some of the game examples used above, the problem as I see it is more to do with coding ability than higher standard specced. A lot of so called next gen games now are simply poorly coded and as such need those better machines to compensate. In the mmo scene as it is now with production dead lines etc, a lot of the routines are taken from other places and much of the time carry unseen baggage.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
The majority doesn't have duo/quad cores and GF 8X00 cards.
The devs shouldn't go Backwards, they should go Slower.
Distinct difference.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
specially prince of persia series and now the new Teenage mutant ninja turtles
where you you kill to fill up the bar on top left corner... thing is that it gets repetitive.
and to correct an above poster, SWG (pre-Cu) was next gen concept game. they brought the player housing (from UO) to a new level,
the crafting was PURE GENIUS, the loot system as welll (the NGE killed all that but this is not the correct forum), what other game could you have multipassenger ships where some one could walk inside the ship, at the same time the pilot was maneuvering it across a fleet of imperial tie fighters? that was a new concept as well.
EVE online had also new concepts with space system and the player economy based, there was no NPC that would sell or buy stuff.
I still hold Anarchy Online's graphics in high regard, Rubi-Ka still looks as beautiful as ever to me.
Now, I for one certainly have a crappy computer by today's standards. I made some bad choices and also got a horrid video card series to begin with for an upgrade. I'm certainly working up to an upgrade now. And, as much as I can't wait to be able to try out some of the current and next gen titles, MMO and non, on maximum settings, I've always been the kind of guy who can say, "As look as I can hit 1024x768 and it runs smoothly I'm happy". That'll change a bit with my new widescreen, I demand 1440x900 now XD but I don't need every single graphic maxed out, I don't need the super realistic lighting effects and textures and such, I just want to be able to play the game on moderate settings with no slow down, and the majority of the gamer market, especially in this day and age, is the same. When I played WoW (I want my god damn 9 months back, Blizzard...) things were plenty smooth on above average settings with a sub-par system. Was a big reason I played it so religiously for a while was because I was able to.
I think thats the points where Vanguard and EQ2 failed most, the engines just didn't scale good enough so the graphic looked really bad on older PCs or these could not even run the game.
But with an mmo you want to be on the market for years so you also have to think about the future and upgrades. Thats part of the problem if you don't do that then your game won't be able to compete that good with games that come out 2-3 years in the future. Theoretically you could upgrade the graphic engine with time (like most older MMOs allready did), but you will still be limited with some older design decissions. On such engine changes old areas usually only get a slight graphical improvement from better textures or new technics like shaders, but they most likely won't look as good as the new areas that were designed for the new engine. completely redoing the old areas is usually not a real option cause in a game thats around for a few years that would take forever and that time is usually better spent in adding new content (players probably will be more excited about a new area, a new boss... than over a old area that looks better now).
So i think mmo developers should plan the game with older computers in mind but as well keep doors open for improvements on future computers.
I am saving money to get a new pc right now, but as some one else stated with the price of gas and other expenses (remodeling part of my house) it is not a major concern.
Game companies should push the envelope with graphics but that doesn't mean they have to make it so "normal" everyday household computers can't run it. There should be a middle ground some where.
For those of you who think I am wrong go ask a working family how often they want to spend money to upgrade or get a new pc, the reply will not be "Every 6 months to a year". Its not even about what they can afford its about priorities. Most families buy a middle of the road PC to begin with, we are not spending a few Gs on our rigs.
Kings and Sons of God
Travel on their way from here
Calming restless mobs
Easing all of their, all of their fear
Strange times are here.
Yah, I have to pay rent and school expenses and its not fun. I was going to upgrade my computer at christmas time but someone breaking into my car and stealing my PSP delayed that till I graduated college and got some money from loving relatives. It also saved me lots of money by waiting because the depreciation on computer parts is unimaginable. I just got me a a new 2.4GHz dual core, 2 gig of 800MHz ram and a mother board and the mother board cost the most! Everyone has their priorities with their money and I'm getting better at making those decisions.
In the past there as been MMORPGs that take into consideration the amount of computer power it takes to run their games. Asherons Call for instance listened to their community and didnt up the graphics to the point where the majority of their population wouldnt be able to handle. Thing is now no one looks at playing that game due to the lack of graphics. Its a really unique game that many pass down due to that reason now. I agree that most devs are pushing graphics further but they should be looking at the majority of the population and what might their specs be and if they can suit the game for different computers and specs (which most do right now).
I think that's the wrong approach. Design your game to look good right now, not in 8 years. You can always do a graphics update later, IF your game is successful, and it's got a lot more chance of being successful if everyone can play it right now.
Besides that, graphic wise games look very good right now. I'm totally satisfied with current graphics quality in MMORPGs. I don't need the devs to get all the way to photo realistic. The game design still needs a lot of work, not the graphics. It seems from this thread most gamers will put up with the current standard in graphics, and don't need bleeding edge graphics, if you come up with some good gameplay. But, we're still waiting for the Devs to get that part straight, while they are still working on the graphics.
MMORPG Maker
Agreed, i mean look at World of Warcraft, it's 2 years old and spent what 5 years in development.... and in some areas, it still looks amazing (of course if you look beyond the cartooony aspect).
The way the sun stretches over the horizon as you fly over the barrens, with animals leaping below you and battles raging with mobs. The Crossroads learing up over the plains as you dive up and over a mountain. Seeing the rows of alliance raiding the town, dead bodies lying askew, as you come into land.. and as you touch down, you pull out your axe and jump into the fray.
graphics wise, not looking dated amazingly because of the simple approach. It plays well, it has a lot of content, and it's a real playable world.
Perfect - gawd no, still a lot more to do. And if done right, can last another 2-4 years. (although i very much doubt it'll be at the top by then). I'm sure Blizzard are hard at work, on their "next gen" MMO, they're keeping secret just now.
But graphics shouldn't be the main emphasise on the game. I know some people are graphic mad, but we're reaching a nice stage in technology we can actually pull back a little. I mean they got Half-Life 2 working on an xbox. The launch of the 360 games saw basic xbox style graphics with a few minor upgrades rather than the full power.
Worse next-gen seems to be about "darker areas" and "gritty graphics", i've lost count on how much 'next-gen' games i've had to yank up the brightness (first thing i did on LOTRO was put it from 1 to 1.10)
There is a difference between taking advantage of new tech and requiring your customer to puchase that tech. LotRO graphics look great on powerful hardware and scales down to lower powered hardware. Vanguard does not scale down well. It looks like crap on even medium machines.