WAR: 1 step forward, 2 steps back? (realistic flame)

irishsausage

Originally posted by Jeremy8419

Originally posted by Adythiel

Look at it like this. When DAoC came out, yes they had a ton of classes. They also had an even bigger problem with class balance. Warhammer is one of the oldest (notice I didn't say "The Oldest") fantasy worlds in existence. They've been going solid for well over 20 years and are closing in very quickly on the quarter century mark.



The original plan was to include something like 48 or so professions across the races. Unfortunately I can't remember if it was Mark Jacobs or Paul Barnett that said it nor can I find the post containing said information. But they were cut because Mythic felt by focusing on a smaller amount of professions right out of the starting gate would give us a better overall game experience. They wouldn't have to worry about balancing as many classes and can focus on more of what will make the game fun.



As for the factions...you really can't do a 3 sided faction war in WAR. Nor can you do the skirmishes between races on the same side. Even raising the race count to 9 would present problems because who would you put in the third faction? Mythic can't split out the 4 Chaos gods. Slaanesh would remove the teen rating. Khorne is all about warriors only. Nuurgle while some people would find cool, most would not want to play anything that ugly. That's why Mythic went with Tzeentch. Who would you add to each of the racial pairs? High Elves historically fight Chaos or Dark Elves. They do take on the other races, but not enough to build anything around a 3 way war without destroying other racial pairs. The Empire is pretty much the front line on Chaos. They have small battles with Bretonnia and Wood Elves and sometimes take on Greenskins but not to the same kind of level as with Chaos. Hard to add a third race into that one. Dwarves and Greenskins. This one is as old as it gets for a racial war. Dwarves also do fight other races, but not like they do Greenskins. High Elves and Dwarves have fought in the past, but you can't make Dwarves the third race in the High Elf/Dark Elf war.



The way Mythic has gone about developing this game is I feel the best way to handle it. I'm just glad it isn't Climax that's developing it because we'd quite literally have another WoW on our hands as it was being designed as a pure PvE game. That doesn't feel like Warhammer at all.



Games Workshop is very protective over their IP. They have to be, it's their bread and butter. 40k is the more popular of the two, but Fantasy Battle is not an unpopular game. They hold global campaigns for it every year. In fact, the latest one is called the Nemesis Crown. Mythic is still making leaps and bounds in the advancement of the MMO genre. The Public Quest system is absolutely revolutionary. The Tome, while we have extremely limited information about it, could also be a revolutionary aspect to the game. The fact they are completely cutting out stealth, long duration CC and Buffbots are also huge steps forward. Reducing the war to two sides and the classes to a starting 24 doesn't mean they are taking steps back. It means they are putting much more energy into putting the "fun, you ****ers" back into the MMO genre. (By the way, that quote is from Paul Barnett, you can find it here:www.mmognation.com/2007/05/16/face-the-nation-paul-barnett-pt-1/)

This is the full quote:

MG: Excellent. One of the things that I took away from one of the conference calls, I thought it was just inspiring: “Fun, F#ckers?”
Paul: “Fun, you F#ckers!” I tell you what, the amount of people who don’t get that just drives me mad! Right, it drives you mad. The people who work on this game, they have to understand that this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. There are people all over the world who want our job. There are people who would kill to get our job. Look at where the planets are in alignment: we got a really good property, we’ve got the right timing, we’ve got good tech, we’ve got a good design, we’re going to win! And you sit there and you say to yourself, “It’s not going to happen again! It’s not going to happen for another 10 years, there isn’t another property out there. It’s … just unbelievably good.” So that’s a really good thing. So then you have to say, our job then is: don’t be crap. Make something what is not rubbish. So then you say, what’s important? It’s a weird thing, right? You talk to people about what’s important they get obsessed on the product. The get obsessed on the frames per second, the colors, the brightness, the usability of the interface. And you go: “It’s none of those things!” That’s just the dressing, that’s the just the stuff that makes you go: “Yes, yes, yes, I see, I see, I see.” What is at the core of it? FUN! Fun, you F#CKERS!
And that is what it’s about. Don’t give me another mechanic! Don’t give me another great design idea! Make sure it’s fun. Do I laugh, do I cry? Do I want to play? If I go down to QA, and they are are play RvR scenarios off their own back, and laughing, and keeping count, and bragging … if I walk round and find that the animators are giggling at their own animations, that they’re actually doing the quests and laughing about them … if I look around and see happy people … people that are overworked and underpaid, obviously, but happy people … then I get better. You’d be amazed … fun is this sort of nebulous thing, it’s like last on the agenda. So in the end we wrote it on the white board in great big letters. And you have to swear, because if you don’t swear they don’t take you sensibly. It’s like when people say “compelling”. And you go, “What the bloody hell does that mean?” Or they go “engaging.” No! FUN! You F#CKERS! You do that, they’ll play it, and they’ll love it, and it’ll be huge, and I won’t have wasted four years of my life.
This is why I feel WAR is taking many steps forward and none back. How long has it been since we've really had fun playing an MMO? I know for me it's been quite a while.

 

Very good post.

 

48 would be far too many starting off.  However, I think they went overboard when cutting back on the number of classes.  6 tanks, probably another 3-6 dps tanks.  I dont like playing either.  I dont like playing "evil" characters either.  This gives me about 7-8 classes to choose from.   So far, I find about 2-3 of those to be interesting.   I guess I dont like the way the realms and nations are setup.  I would prefer if they had found some way to make it so that each of the 6 races didnt have to have an equivelant.  Could have just chosen 12 unique classes per side and scattered the races between them.  Then there wouldnt need to be 3-6 tanks on each side.  Probably they decided that it wasnt WAR enough tho to have a straight united front with PVP groups always being mixed race.

 

Ironbreaker/Hammerer/Knight   VS  BlackOrc/OrcChoppa/Chosen/Marauder   ........

Sorry, those just dont seem that great, or cool, or unique, or anything that would make me find it cool to play as any of them.  Witch Hunter alone stands out.   Seems like they just kinda killed over on their creativity in choosing those 7 classes.  They would be cool if they were 7 out of 35, but 7 out of 24?  thats a third of the classes seeming stale, and thats if there arnt any dull looking tanks in the High/Dark Elves.  Maybe im just a jerk, but they came up with some other cool choices for classes, why couldnt they have come up with more for the tank-like ones? like the Witch Hunter?  2-3 total tanks like that per side would be fine, but thats like half the classes looking like stale unimaginative classes.   NO ONE else thinks that they could have made better, more creative choices for classes?

 

I understand the 2 Realms is due to the IP, was just hoping for more from Mythic's next game.  I concede to their choice for WAR as an IP as a great business choice, though.

 

I can understand that they want it to be as "fun" as possible, and I am a huge fan of Mythic, as I've been playing their games since 96, but I honestly dont think I am going to have that much "fun" playing the game.  I'm sure i will enjoy parts of it for a while, but I doubt I will stay with it for long-term.  It's just looking very "cookie-cutter" and "simple" to me.  I like complex games with tons of possibilities where you really have to think and plan.  I know people can say  "well thats WAR!", but compared to DAoC, this just looks really cookie-cutter and simple, even though there are some nice features.

  You said you don't like playing evil classes, hate to burst ya bubble but there is no such thing as good and evil in the warhammer universe. The raelms in the order faction have commited various evils during there time. thats what makes warhammer cool!!

Jetrpg

YOUR right the biggest factor i feel you missed however.... PVP will largely take place in instances.

No 3 sides why WAR ip is perfect for this.

The classes is another issues ... i know FOR A FACT that most tactics between similar classes are almost the same (ie BW and Magus).

As for the spells i know  FOR A FACT that they are quite different. Still what i see is magus spells being like a mix between  BW spells (bit less agressive) with some of the shamans status effects mixed in.

All and All a different class that others SIDEs can match in dps and utility however strung across a few classes.

As for the prime melee classes they look more different from each otehr than they did in DAOC , however, i do not see classes of animist, vampire, thuerg, bonedancers, or warlock uniqueness. AT ALLL. Still all but thruegs are x-pack classes. So hopfully with WAR x-packs ew will get new classes and maybe new races even ... heck some people still hope for a new allience to make the game a 3 way. (thsi last one would be hard... too hard but its doable ).



In any case I agree i think EA Mythic is taking this game in many directions that are great , but i also feel they sold out a bit to capture more of the market and thats their right to... doesn't mean i have to be happy about it. But i am sure the game will be the best release for a few years to come.



"I hear there's a boycott by 2 of the sides in DAoC because one side is more powerful, doesn't sound like pvp fun to me)" - really when what ? I played daoc forever ... am right now in fact i am playing all three sides at once ... they are all pretty much equal.

There are a lot of people basing doac classes but i never had any issues minus i think timers for cave shaman dd should be removed. (still this is not a make or break issue.)



"I offer nothing more than simple facts, plain arguments, and common sense; and have no other preliminaries to settle with the reader, than that he will divest himself of prejudice and prepossession, and suffer his reason and his feelings to determine for themselves; that he will put on, or rather that he will not put off, the true character of a man, and generously enlarge his views beyond the present day." - Thomas Pain