Again, what is so unreasonable about believing this "oversight committe" resembles a strange stunt?
CCP apologists claim that this is something groundbreaking. Yet we have always since the UO days had player correspondents, or player representatives. They don't do much, never have, and there is no indication this "oversight committee" will act any differently. Because CCP is not obligated now, nor ever can be obligated to provide customers with oversight powers.
CCP apologists claim that this is similar to an investor oversight board. The problem is that we are not investors. We have no financial stake in CCP, and we have no ownership rights over CCP.
CCP apologists claim that nothing CCP can do will satisfy the 'CCP haters.' I'm trying to figure out exactly why it's so unreasonable for CCP to just comply with the standards MMO gamers have come to expect from a Pay to Play service, because that's all the 'CCP haters' are asking for.
That means CCP has to grow up, be a responsible producer of games, and create a service for the consumers to enjoy, not for them to enjoy. If they want to create a game they can enjoy, they can offer it for free.
But I and everyone else pay CCP to be served by EVE, not to serve EVE. That means an exclusive game for customers only.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You definitely have a valid point there bud, if CCP would just toe the line on what is acceptable for employee behavior that the rest of the industry seems to do then they wouldn't have had a problem to begin with.
I do support CCP's employees playing the game but they need to do so with characters like any other players, no Dev/GM abilities, no positions of leadership, completely annonymous, no insider game knowledge of mechanics unless it is released to all players etc... Well I can see that I'm not as confident that CCP employees could pull all of that off as I originally felt but it could happen.
<blockquote><em>Originally posted by Beatnik59</em> <br /> <strong> <p>I like to say CCP a lot</p> </strong></blockquote> <p> </p> <p>What ever they do, you like the rst of the eve haters will never be happy.. You have slated and flamed eve-online, its developers and fans for quite some time now and yet you have learned nothing about the game. One of the most common complaints by players in the MMO field is that the devs and GMs don't have a clue about their own games. Yet CCP play their own game and people like yourself have to moan about it.</p> <p>As you have said yourself you don't play the game, so why do you constantly troll the eve-o posts taking a pop at them when ever you can? If the game bugs you so much don't visit this area of the forum of bother to address any of the posts dealing with eve-o. But then again as its already been established you are one of the long term trolls so you would miss your fix.<br /> </p>
I love the game. The only thing that is holding it back is CCP and it's stupid greyshard way of administering a consumer service.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Its interesting that they aren't willing to address the issues, that the game is played by DEV's with devs powers in the public server. if we had direct information that they have researched fully and that they can tell us this isn't happening, that BOB's confirmation isn't true that they aren't in constant contact with the dev's ( or other alliances, and they don't hafve MSN chat), I'd feel like an oversight commitee isn't even needed. They cannot do this though. Will an oversight commitee made up of 9 people who go out there be able to do the research to show this? Its not easy to prove a negative....
The things that BOB says they talk to dev's on MSN, that they are part of the politics of EVE on a day to day basis, that the DEV's of CCP are playing the game with GOD Powers, and that they using said powers to their alliance's benefit, is what is the biggest stumbling blocks for CCP going forward are. If the 9 go out there and say they found nothing, how hard is it for us to believe they were wined and dined and didn't look very hard or didn't have access to verify anything? Don't they speak a different language than English, I'm clueless, just concerned if language is another potential problem for verifying anything.....
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
Erm... CCP has clearly stated that devs don't play the game with dev accounts. When devs play eve they play with normal accounts the same as everyone else. The only 'dev power' they have on those accounts is that they don' thave to pay for the game.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Erm... CCP has clearly stated that devs don't play the game with dev accounts. When devs play eve they play with normal accounts the same as everyone else. The only 'dev power' they have on those accounts is that they don' thave to pay for the game.
Erm... CCP has clearly stated that devs don't play the game with dev accounts. When devs play eve they play with normal accounts the same as everyone else. The only 'dev power' they have on those accounts is that they don' thave to pay for the game.
I would say dev's playing in anything other than official dev accounts is the problem. Devs have knowledge of up comming devolpments, game machanics, and other player/ alliance resorces. Its only human nature to help your self or your freinds out. Their is a conflict of intrest having devs play in player corps. Dev's should only play in marked Dev accounts that all who bump into them in game could clearly reconize.
Erm... CCP has clearly stated that devs don't play the game with dev accounts. When devs play eve they play with normal accounts the same as everyone else. The only 'dev power' they have on those accounts is that they don' thave to pay for the game.
I would say dev's playing in anything other than official dev accounts is the problem. Devs have knowledge of up comming devolpments, game machanics, and other player/ alliance resorces. Its only human nature to help your self or your freinds out. Their is a conflict of intrest having devs play in player corps. Dev's should only play in marked Dev accounts that all who bump into them in game could clearly reconize.
And yet the advantages of devs playing the game outweigh this possable disadvantage dont it?
As in the devs understand EvE from a palyers perspective and therefore have a better idea on what to change/add/fix next.
Their is to much wealth and power at stake in EVE to have Dev's bluring the line of playing in player corps.Its human nature to help your freinds or your self. I think anyone being honest would have to agree it would be very hard to not play favorites. Think about how you fell about the guys/gals you play with on EVE. Ive made real life freindships. Could i be 100% objective twords the hole EVE comunity, No I couldnt. But DEV's are paid employes of EVE they have to be impartial or at least shuld be.
Some like to say well a Dev only helped/cheated one time and it was delt with. Sorry but that hole T2 wasnt realy dealt with properly, it took CCP over 6 months after finding out and a hacker to make them do anything.The wistle blower was crusified on the EVE cross while Sir Molle gets to make cameo apperences representing CCP in the NY times. Thier is much more circumstantail evidence that CCP dev's blur the line in their EVE community governing choices.Wish we all had a MSN to a dev freind.
CCP should have no problem fixing and progresing EVE if they are active with petitions,forums,and fly throught EVE in official Dev accounts.They also have the test server to fool around on.
Many in EVE feel its all about the DEV's we are just here to fill the servers. The devs are rabid fans of EVE, many have the highest sp pilots in EVE. CCP has to decide do they want to make EVE about the players or themselves.We after all are the ones who actually pay for our accounts.
Their is to much wealth and power at stake in EVE to have Dev's bluring the line of playing in player corps.Its human nature to help your freinds or your self. I think anyone being honest would have to agree it would be very hard to not play favorites. Think about how you fell about the guys/gals you play with on EVE. Ive made real life freindships. Could i be 100% objective twords the hole EVE comunity, No I couldnt. But DEV's are paid employes of EVE they have to be impartial or at least shuld be. Some like to say well a Dev only helped/cheated one time and it was delt with. Sorry but that hole T2 wasnt realy dealt with properly, it took CCP over 6 months after finding out and a hacker to make them do anything.The wistle blower was crusified on the EVE cross while Sir Molle gets to make cameo apperences representing CCP in the NY times. Thier is much more circumstantail evidence that CCP dev's blur the line in their EVE community governing choices.Wish we all had a MSN to a dev freind. CCP should have no problem fixing and progresing EVE if they are active with petitions,forums,and fly throught EVE in official Dev accounts.They also have the test server to fool around on. Many in EVE feel its all about the DEV's we are just here to fill the servers. The devs are rabid fans of EVE, many have the highest sp pilots in EVE. CCP has to decide do they want to make EVE about the players or themselves.We after all are the ones who actually pay for our accounts.
I think they have already decided, its all about the DEV's and keeping us in the dark. Anyone who questions anything important with the DEV's on their forums is deleted and sometimes banned....
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
ok explain how t20 spawned the illegal BPO if he cant use his dev powers in game?
and for most part the major items CCP /volunteers have been accused of is giving AWAY intel not abuse of the dev powers ie where to be for the mothership event
ISD person is in sys x and is too close to me
enemy fleet is approaching from route X into location X
and if the devs are being contacted at CCP, CCP could monitor the msn contacts so long as it goes over their network most tech companys DO monitor suck things just to fend off industrial espionage
and the inspection crew is in reality a PR ploy as how are reg folks going to be able to dig into log files and documentation looking into accusations?? and who can afford to take off from their lives few times a year to conduct inspections
if they wanted this to be real they would hire industry pros to audit themselves like an accounting audit-you dont audit a companys books by bringing in a team of jolt cola and twinkies insomniacs
I refer you to a post i cut and pasted by a blizzard employee in these forums from the offical forums where he pointed out how finely drawn the lines were at blizzard about employee conduct ingmae both on and off the clock
he also made a later post about the ridiculous way CCP responded to to dev scandal #2
AND WHAT HAPPENED TO dev scandal #2 subpart 4-arkanon MENTIONS it but only 3 investgations were published?!?!?
ok explain how t20 spawned the illegal BPO if he cant use his dev powers in game?
Ever thought that he may of used his dev account to spawn those items onto his player account..
You do know that they can do this.. i've had stuff replaced in the past from a petition when i have been offline and its been spawned directly into my hanger..
Erm... CCP has clearly stated that devs don't play the game with dev accounts. When devs play eve they play with normal accounts the same as everyone else. The only 'dev power' they have on those accounts is that they don' thave to pay for the game.
I would say dev's playing in anything other than official dev accounts is the problem. Devs have knowledge of up comming devolpments, game machanics, and other player/ alliance resorces. Its only human nature to help your self or your freinds out. Their is a conflict of intrest having devs play in player corps. Dev's should only play in marked Dev accounts that all who bump into them in game could clearly reconize.
As does anyone else who bothers to read the forums, read the whats in delopment section or uses the test server...
for example the cargo expander II bpo switch.. when all cargo expander I bpos changed from tech I to tech II... this was common knowlage by all those who used sisi.. which lead to a large number of buy orders going out in attempt to get as many CE I as they could before the change..
As for having dev marked account.. well that would be counter productive wouldn't it... the whole point is that they play as normal players.. having a dev marked account would lead to every tard and his dog trying to contact them whining about their petition or wanting stuff spawned etc..
Anyone who goes on about devs shouldn't play the game forget the fact in for the most in pretty much most mmo's the devs and GM are really clueless about the game and the way it works.. hell i've had to explain to more then one GM in the past on other games how something should work and that because of x patch it no longer works because they didn't have a clue. ... but these people are know trolls of this forum.
Anyone who goes on about devs shouldn't play the game forget the fact in for the most in pretty much most mmo's the devs and GM are really clueless about the game and the way it works.. hell i've had to explain to more then one GM in the past on other games how something should work and that because of x patch it no longer works because they didn't have a clue. ... but these people are know trolls of this forum.
Dev's dont need to be in player corps to know how EVE works. They could Play in NPC corps or just fly around in politicaly neutral official Dev corps.I agree it is nice to have active Dev's that know whats going on. Problem is EVE is like no other MMO out right now.Empires in EVE are to rich and to powerfull, Bob alone has to be worth 500k US cash. Ships in EVE can be worth thousands of dollars. Their is alot at stake in EVE when you loose. These facts make seperation of DEv's from player corps necessary. Empirers are at stake here with real consequences. Dev's have to be neutral in EVE. That cant happen if they are in player corps.
Itsmee I feel for you man . Playing all these games with Gm's and Dev's that wont just listen to you. Thier clueless. why dont they just check with you before they try and make game patches. You would think they would learn.
I agree devs does not be in player corps..oh noe...did you saw a single battle with noob corp force? They have to be. there are a lot of things workin others that was intended in a player driven world. U cannot imagine how is gonnause a player the brick u just created.
so i don`t agree with the devs not beeing allowed to play in player corps.
And there is a mor esensible matter, nobody is talkin about it. Since when is a model on all these forums to deny a human beeig his right to play legally a game. Do you like playing games that are made by guys that are not enjoying playing them? The market is full of these hyped games made by big producers, where an employee is denied to do these kind of things because is not politically correct with the player base. Is almost as worse like those companies fireing you because u got a date with the girl from the competition.
What would you guys like, CCP hacking team to see what devs play at home? I find it pifull to talk about banning peole to play this game if they did not do anything wrong. Ban all T20 chars, erase them from the server and kick his a** , but rest c`mon....
I still remind that i never saw a single big company doing what CCP did and with the level of transparency they did. And i ask? There is cheating from blizzard employees or volunteers in WoW? Ah i forgot, Blizzard has a better PR team.
EDIT: talking about real life money value of things in a virtual world u should play for fun is ....how can i say ....retarded. I`m sad for you sir!
EDIT: talking about real life money value of things in a virtual world u should play for fun is ....how can i say ....retarded. I`m sad for you sir!
Why are you sad for me? Game money being worth real money is a fact of life. All games have a currency to real dollar value. I didnt say if it was right or not just that it exists. Why is it you try to attack the person instead of the facts?Why is it in EVE when some of the large alliances in 0.0 where at war or folded isk to dollar values went up in the past.Supply and demand my freind. I brought up the point of alliance dollar values to show scale to those that cant see the big picture in EVE.
Not being able to see or want to see things that are their is ....how can i say ....retarded. I'm sad for people that cant see the big picture.
i feel sad for al those player buying isk with real life money. I pay my accounts from my income. Income is from work, game is for fun. So they are retarded, not u.
Nothing will satisfy those who desire to hate something.
Hate to break this to you but there's really nothing more that they can do. CCP has bent over backwards to try to make it apparent that they are not corrupt but nothing makes you people happy. Just stop posting, really. They have changed their internal policies, added new internal divisions for monitoring, are adding a 3rd party oversight committee, removed the bpo's which were added by T20 from the game, appologised for it happening, clearly stated that they will not allow it to happen again and if it somehow DOES happen again will react much more swiftly and thoroughly,
Furthermore the 'recent' allegations were all fake. The only question remaining from that goon letter is whether some BoB members have CCP Dev team members on their MSN Chat. That's it... it's minor... hell it's nothing. Anyone in the game can hop on the IRC support channel anytime they want to. Further they can PRIVATE MESSAGE CCP employees, including devs, through that interface. Just as fast and just as easily as MSN chat. (Actually IRC is much more powerful than MSN).
So what's left? Just hate CCP because you are still steamed over something that occurred a year ago? Or sit up and realize that maybe you were wrong and CCP is honestly trying to make things right?
If CCP were transparent and actually took the correct actions to begin with, we woudn't be having this discussion.
Everyone involved should have been made publically aware of their firing, and all players involved should have been banned.
That didn't happen... and everything was hush hush, and posts deleted.
Can you blame people for thinking something underhanded is going on when the people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible?
Nothing will satisfy those who desire to hate something.
Hate to break this to you but there's really nothing more that they can do. CCP has bent over backwards to try to make it apparent that they are not corrupt but nothing makes you people happy. Just stop posting, really. They have changed their internal policies, added new internal divisions for monitoring, are adding a 3rd party oversight committee, removed the bpo's which were added by T20 from the game, appologised for it happening, clearly stated that they will not allow it to happen again and if it somehow DOES happen again will react much more swiftly and thoroughly,
Furthermore the 'recent' allegations were all fake. The only question remaining from that goon letter is whether some BoB members have CCP Dev team members on their MSN Chat. That's it... it's minor... hell it's nothing. Anyone in the game can hop on the IRC support channel anytime they want to. Further they can PRIVATE MESSAGE CCP employees, including devs, through that interface. Just as fast and just as easily as MSN chat. (Actually IRC is much more powerful than MSN).
So what's left? Just hate CCP because you are still steamed over something that occurred a year ago? Or sit up and realize that maybe you were wrong and CCP is honestly trying to make things right?
If CCP were transparent and actually took the correct actions to begin with, we woudn't be having this discussion. I partly agree here tho i still feel some eve haters would have still leaped at this even if it was dealt with woithin say 2 days for example. What should also be noted was at the begining of this T20 incident is that CCP like many other companys kept internal disaplinary actions and stuff like that private...which is within there rtights but now they are telling us a lot which i like but in the end they dont have to tell us anything at all.
Everyone involved should have been made publically aware of their firing, and all players involved should have been banned. Problem is not every player involved knew that those illegally spawned items were illegal the dev gave them over in 'good faith'. A large part of the investigation was to try and determin who knew and who did not.
That didn't happen... and everything was hush hush, and posts deleted. The posts were delited because the forums were suddenly being spammed with multiple topics on the same subjec therefore messing the forums so they created ONE dedicted thread and stickied it to help keep things tidy and any other threads that pop up were got rid off so as to not mess up the forums. This is standard procedure for any news item and ahs been around since castor.
Can you blame people for thinking something underhanded is going on when the people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible? No i cant after all its in human nature to be suspicious or to take information at face value. And just as i side note T20 and MAYBEE sir mole should have had his main delited too as a token punishment to BoB at least, asasuming of course there was solid evidence he knew of course.
Just one point id like to highlight not every high end member of BoB who recieved those illegal items knew they were illegal which is probably why BoB wasant badly punished for this T20 incident.
Dev's dont need to be in player corps to know how EVE works. They could Play in NPC corps or just fly around in politicaly neutral official Dev corps.I agree it is nice to have active Dev's that know whats going on. Problem is EVE is like no other MMO out right now.Empires in EVE are to rich and to powerfull, Bob alone has to be worth 500k US cash. Ships in EVE can be worth thousands of dollars. Their is alot at stake in EVE when you loose. These facts make seperation of DEv's from player corps necessary. Empirers are at stake here with real consequences. Dev's have to be neutral in EVE. That cant happen if they are in player corps. Itsmee I feel for you man . Playing all these games with Gm's and Dev's that wont just listen to you. Thier clueless. why dont they just check with you before they try and make game patches. You would think they would learn. Do you include yourself on that known forum troll list, ltsmee?
Problem is in order for a dev to fully apreciate EvE and understand how it workes they need to experience ALL aspects of EvE If they were limited to NPC corps or a dev NPC corp or a dev only corp then there would be severall aspects of eve they couldnt directly experience. Bellow ill list these areas so you can see why i feel this is an important point.
First of all the corp structure true they will ahve it with the 'Dev only' corp but then every memeber will have good knoledge of how it works meanwhile player corps wont. In player corps it will vary and from this ways of making it easier to understand could come out and new processes could be developed.
Wars - Now im sure dev corps would do small scale wars for a short while for fun and to try out the various mechanics of this part of eve but i think you would a gree an alliance led by developers would be seen as unfare by the playerbase so they would not do it [remember we are assuming these are model behaviour devs]. So This Dev corp cant join an alliance or create one either. So the devs will be unable to experience directly Alliance mechanics such as the polotics/soverenty etc.
These are just 2 parts of eve that i could think of but now yuu see that these areas may suffer if devs were not allowed to paly eve. Now in eve today all changes and new stuff to eve is generally very good works fr eve and doesant unballance eve. In fact compared to some games EvE's patches tend to be very popular to the playerbase as a whole. This is because the Devs paly eve and therefore understand how Eve works from the Customers perspective. And this is why i will always support the idea of devs palying with ordanary acconts. Can this be abbused? Of course just look at the T20 incident. But now we ahve better safeguards now while tho not perfect [it is run by humans after all] it is pretty good now.
Well after reading all this and the other many,many threads regarding this issue I can only see one point can be made.
Its not about what CCP did or didn't do any more its about getting the respect and trust of their paying customers back.
And its fine for all the BoBettes and Goonies etc to banter this all around but until CCP does what every other Gaming company does and restrict its employee's from being able to give unfair help to others, this will keep coming back to bite them, be it TRUE OR NOT.
I know that some are your friends but that CCP's fault for not making this standard practice from the start. When taking and employing people from within the game you will always end up with this.
Even if this is ....... as people say some one trying to pull CCP down, hey if they put this right there is no one can say jack because there will be no one to point the finger at.
I see those saying this is Tinfoiling or something or forum trawling but what ever it is just the fact that people still care enough to post here or the 170+ pages on their own forums should tell CCP people arn't happy and won't forget.
And I remember the heady days off 33k online and now ? best i've seen for awhile is 28k maybe people are doing what Kieron said.
CCP kieron
(If you feel we as an entity are corrupt and abhorrent, we bid you good luck in finding a game and company that suits your interests.)
Damn shame to see people leave I would hope we could all agree on that...
Sorry for long post but I was away when this all kicked off so have been saving this up
Nothing will satisfy those who desire to hate something.
Hate to break this to you but there's really nothing more that they can do. CCP has bent over backwards to try to make it apparent that they are not corrupt but nothing makes you people happy. Just stop posting, really. They have changed their internal policies, added new internal divisions for monitoring, are adding a 3rd party oversight committee, removed the bpo's which were added by T20 from the game, appologised for it happening, clearly stated that they will not allow it to happen again and if it somehow DOES happen again will react much more swiftly and thoroughly,
Furthermore the 'recent' allegations were all fake. The only question remaining from that goon letter is whether some BoB members have CCP Dev team members on their MSN Chat. That's it... it's minor... hell it's nothing. Anyone in the game can hop on the IRC support channel anytime they want to. Further they can PRIVATE MESSAGE CCP employees, including devs, through that interface. Just as fast and just as easily as MSN chat. (Actually IRC is much more powerful than MSN).
So what's left? Just hate CCP because you are still steamed over something that occurred a year ago? Or sit up and realize that maybe you were wrong and CCP is honestly trying to make things right?
If CCP were transparent and actually took the correct actions to begin with, we woudn't be having this discussion.
Everyone involved should have been made publically aware of their firing, and all players involved should have been banned.
That didn't happen... and everything was hush hush, and posts deleted.
Can you blame people for thinking something underhanded is going on when the people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible?
wow, you sound like an adult and very smart/reasonable about this situation. I think you summed it up very nicely....
The people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible........
I think its pretty obvious that CCP promotes cheaters when a player gets cheated and their response is tough, suck it up and live with it, and they refuse to admit the possible exploits. They create new systems that create more exploits ( contracts among others)...
basically the law says that if your aiding and abeding a crime, your part of the crime, and that is how I feel with player corruption, CCP is aiding and abeding if not outright helping....
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
Comments
I'm sure the players are happy to know that CCP is willing to actively make amends as they further develop the game.
Could you link the article/newsfeed?
Cheers!
Again, what is so unreasonable about believing this "oversight committe" resembles a strange stunt?
CCP apologists claim that this is something groundbreaking. Yet we have always since the UO days had player correspondents, or player representatives. They don't do much, never have, and there is no indication this "oversight committee" will act any differently. Because CCP is not obligated now, nor ever can be obligated to provide customers with oversight powers.
CCP apologists claim that this is similar to an investor oversight board. The problem is that we are not investors. We have no financial stake in CCP, and we have no ownership rights over CCP.
CCP apologists claim that nothing CCP can do will satisfy the 'CCP haters.' I'm trying to figure out exactly why it's so unreasonable for CCP to just comply with the standards MMO gamers have come to expect from a Pay to Play service, because that's all the 'CCP haters' are asking for.
That means CCP has to grow up, be a responsible producer of games, and create a service for the consumers to enjoy, not for them to enjoy. If they want to create a game they can enjoy, they can offer it for free.
But I and everyone else pay CCP to be served by EVE, not to serve EVE. That means an exclusive game for customers only.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You definitely have a valid point there bud, if CCP would just toe the line on what is acceptable for employee behavior that the rest of the industry seems to do then they wouldn't have had a problem to begin with.
I do support CCP's employees playing the game but they need to do so with characters like any other players, no Dev/GM abilities, no positions of leadership, completely annonymous, no insider game knowledge of mechanics unless it is released to all players etc... Well I can see that I'm not as confident that CCP employees could pull all of that off as I originally felt but it could happen.
<blockquote><em>Originally posted by Beatnik59</em> <br />
<strong>
<p>I like to say CCP a lot</p>
</strong></blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>What ever they do, you like the rst of the eve haters will never be happy.. You have slated and flamed eve-online, its developers and fans for quite some time now and yet you have learned nothing about the game. One of the most common complaints by players in the MMO field is that the devs and GMs don't have a clue about their own games. Yet CCP play their own game and people like yourself have to moan about it.</p>
<p>As you have said yourself you don't play the game, so why do you constantly troll the eve-o posts taking a pop at them when ever you can? If the game bugs you so much don't visit this area of the forum of bother to address any of the posts dealing with eve-o. But then again as its already been established you are one of the long term trolls so you would miss your fix.<br />
</p>
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Its interesting that they aren't willing to address the issues, that the game is played by DEV's with devs powers in the public server. if we had direct information that they have researched fully and that they can tell us this isn't happening, that BOB's confirmation isn't true that they aren't in constant contact with the dev's ( or other alliances, and they don't hafve MSN chat), I'd feel like an oversight commitee isn't even needed. They cannot do this though. Will an oversight commitee made up of 9 people who go out there be able to do the research to show this? Its not easy to prove a negative....
The things that BOB says they talk to dev's on MSN, that they are part of the politics of EVE on a day to day basis, that the DEV's of CCP are playing the game with GOD Powers, and that they using said powers to their alliance's benefit, is what is the biggest stumbling blocks for CCP going forward are. If the 9 go out there and say they found nothing, how hard is it for us to believe they were wined and dined and didn't look very hard or didn't have access to verify anything? Don't they speak a different language than English, I'm clueless, just concerned if language is another potential problem for verifying anything.....
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
And yet the advantages of devs playing the game outweigh this possable disadvantage dont it?
As in the devs understand EvE from a palyers perspective and therefore have a better idea on what to change/add/fix next.
Their is to much wealth and power at stake in EVE to have Dev's bluring the line of playing in player corps.Its human nature to help your freinds or your self. I think anyone being honest would have to agree it would be very hard to not play favorites. Think about how you fell about the guys/gals you play with on EVE. Ive made real life freindships. Could i be 100% objective twords the hole EVE comunity, No I couldnt. But DEV's are paid employes of EVE they have to be impartial or at least shuld be.
Some like to say well a Dev only helped/cheated one time and it was delt with. Sorry but that hole T2 wasnt realy dealt with properly, it took CCP over 6 months after finding out and a hacker to make them do anything.The wistle blower was crusified on the EVE cross while Sir Molle gets to make cameo apperences representing CCP in the NY times. Thier is much more circumstantail evidence that CCP dev's blur the line in their EVE community governing choices.Wish we all had a MSN to a dev freind.
CCP should have no problem fixing and progresing EVE if they are active with petitions,forums,and fly throught EVE in official Dev accounts.They also have the test server to fool around on.
Many in EVE feel its all about the DEV's we are just here to fill the servers. The devs are rabid fans of EVE, many have the highest sp pilots in EVE. CCP has to decide do they want to make EVE about the players or themselves.We after all are the ones who actually pay for our accounts.
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
and for most part the major items CCP /volunteers have been accused of is giving AWAY intel not abuse of the dev powers ie where to be for the mothership event
ISD person is in sys x and is too close to me
enemy fleet is approaching from route X into location X
and if the devs are being contacted at CCP, CCP could monitor the msn contacts so long as it goes over their network most tech companys DO monitor suck things just to fend off industrial espionage
and the inspection crew is in reality a PR ploy as how are reg folks going to be able to dig into log files and documentation looking into accusations?? and who can afford to take off from their lives few times a year to conduct inspections
if they wanted this to be real they would hire industry pros to audit themselves like an accounting audit-you dont audit a companys books by bringing in a team of jolt cola and twinkies insomniacs
I refer you to a post i cut and pasted by a blizzard employee in these forums from the offical forums where he pointed out how finely drawn the lines were at blizzard about employee conduct ingmae both on and off the clock
he also made a later post about the ridiculous way CCP responded to to dev scandal #2
AND WHAT HAPPENED TO dev scandal #2 subpart 4-arkanon MENTIONS it but only 3 investgations were published?!?!?
Ever thought that he may of used his dev account to spawn those items onto his player account..
You do know that they can do this.. i've had stuff replaced in the past from a petition when i have been offline and its been spawned directly into my hanger..
As does anyone else who bothers to read the forums, read the whats in delopment section or uses the test server...
for example the cargo expander II bpo switch.. when all cargo expander I bpos changed from tech I to tech II... this was common knowlage by all those who used sisi.. which lead to a large number of buy orders going out in attempt to get as many CE I as they could before the change..
As for having dev marked account.. well that would be counter productive wouldn't it... the whole point is that they play as normal players.. having a dev marked account would lead to every tard and his dog trying to contact them whining about their petition or wanting stuff spawned etc..
Anyone who goes on about devs shouldn't play the game forget the fact in for the most in pretty much most mmo's the devs and GM are really clueless about the game and the way it works.. hell i've had to explain to more then one GM in the past on other games how something should work and that because of x patch it no longer works because they didn't have a clue. ... but these people are know trolls of this forum.
Anyone who goes on about devs shouldn't play the game forget the fact in for the most in pretty much most mmo's the devs and GM are really clueless about the game and the way it works.. hell i've had to explain to more then one GM in the past on other games how something should work and that because of x patch it no longer works because they didn't have a clue. ... but these people are know trolls of this forum.
Dev's dont need to be in player corps to know how EVE works. They could Play in NPC corps or just fly around in politicaly neutral official Dev corps.I agree it is nice to have active Dev's that know whats going on. Problem is EVE is like no other MMO out right now.Empires in EVE are to rich and to powerfull, Bob alone has to be worth 500k US cash. Ships in EVE can be worth thousands of dollars. Their is alot at stake in EVE when you loose. These facts make seperation of DEv's from player corps necessary. Empirers are at stake here with real consequences. Dev's have to be neutral in EVE. That cant happen if they are in player corps.
Itsmee I feel for you man . Playing all these games with Gm's and Dev's that wont just listen to you. Thier clueless. why dont they just check with you before they try and make game patches. You would think they would learn.
{ Mod Edit }
I agree devs does not be in player corps..oh noe...did you saw a single battle with noob corp force? They have to be. there are a lot of things workin others that was intended in a player driven world. U cannot imagine how is gonnause a player the brick u just created.
so i don`t agree with the devs not beeing allowed to play in player corps.
And there is a mor esensible matter, nobody is talkin about it. Since when is a model on all these forums to deny a human beeig his right to play legally a game. Do you like playing games that are made by guys that are not enjoying playing them? The market is full of these hyped games made by big producers, where an employee is denied to do these kind of things because is not politically correct with the player base. Is almost as worse like those companies fireing you because u got a date with the girl from the competition.
What would you guys like, CCP hacking team to see what devs play at home? I find it pifull to talk about banning peole to play this game if they did not do anything wrong. Ban all T20 chars, erase them from the server and kick his a** , but rest c`mon....
I still remind that i never saw a single big company doing what CCP did and with the level of transparency they did. And i ask? There is cheating from blizzard employees or volunteers in WoW? Ah i forgot, Blizzard has a better PR team.
EDIT: talking about real life money value of things in a virtual world u should play for fun is ....how can i say ....retarded. I`m sad for you sir!
Why are you sad for me? Game money being worth real money is a fact of life. All games have a currency to real dollar value. I didnt say if it was right or not just that it exists. Why is it you try to attack the person instead of the facts?Why is it in EVE when some of the large alliances in 0.0 where at war or folded isk to dollar values went up in the past.Supply and demand my freind. I brought up the point of alliance dollar values to show scale to those that cant see the big picture in EVE.
Not being able to see or want to see things that are their is ....how can i say ....retarded. I'm sad for people that cant see the big picture.
i feel sad for al those player buying isk with real life money. I pay my accounts from my income. Income is from work, game is for fun. So they are retarded, not u.
U have my escuses for not saying right!
If CCP were transparent and actually took the correct actions to begin with, we woudn't be having this discussion.
Everyone involved should have been made publically aware of their firing, and all players involved should have been banned.
That didn't happen... and everything was hush hush, and posts deleted.
Can you blame people for thinking something underhanded is going on when the people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible?
If CCP were transparent and actually took the correct actions to begin with, we woudn't be having this discussion. I partly agree here tho i still feel some eve haters would have still leaped at this even if it was dealt with woithin say 2 days for example. What should also be noted was at the begining of this T20 incident is that CCP like many other companys kept internal disaplinary actions and stuff like that private...which is within there rtights but now they are telling us a lot which i like but in the end they dont have to tell us anything at all.
Everyone involved should have been made publically aware of their firing, and all players involved should have been banned. Problem is not every player involved knew that those illegally spawned items were illegal the dev gave them over in 'good faith'. A large part of the investigation was to try and determin who knew and who did not.
That didn't happen... and everything was hush hush, and posts deleted. The posts were delited because the forums were suddenly being spammed with multiple topics on the same subjec therefore messing the forums so they created ONE dedicted thread and stickied it to help keep things tidy and any other threads that pop up were got rid off so as to not mess up the forums. This is standard procedure for any news item and ahs been around since castor.
Can you blame people for thinking something underhanded is going on when the people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible? No i cant after all its in human nature to be suspicious or to take information at face value. And just as i side note T20 and MAYBEE sir mole should have had his main delited too as a token punishment to BoB at least, asasuming of course there was solid evidence he knew of course.
Just one point id like to highlight not every high end member of BoB who recieved those illegal items knew they were illegal which is probably why BoB wasant badly punished for this T20 incident.
Problem is in order for a dev to fully apreciate EvE and understand how it workes they need to experience ALL aspects of EvE If they were limited to NPC corps or a dev NPC corp or a dev only corp then there would be severall aspects of eve they couldnt directly experience. Bellow ill list these areas so you can see why i feel this is an important point.
First of all the corp structure true they will ahve it with the 'Dev only' corp but then every memeber will have good knoledge of how it works meanwhile player corps wont. In player corps it will vary and from this ways of making it easier to understand could come out and new processes could be developed.
Wars - Now im sure dev corps would do small scale wars for a short while for fun and to try out the various mechanics of this part of eve but i think you would a gree an alliance led by developers would be seen as unfare by the playerbase so they would not do it [remember we are assuming these are model behaviour devs]. So This Dev corp cant join an alliance or create one either. So the devs will be unable to experience directly Alliance mechanics such as the polotics/soverenty etc.
These are just 2 parts of eve that i could think of but now yuu see that these areas may suffer if devs were not allowed to paly eve. Now in eve today all changes and new stuff to eve is generally very good works fr eve and doesant unballance eve. In fact compared to some games EvE's patches tend to be very popular to the playerbase as a whole. This is because the Devs paly eve and therefore understand how Eve works from the Customers perspective. And this is why i will always support the idea of devs palying with ordanary acconts. Can this be abbused? Of course just look at the T20 incident. But now we ahve better safeguards now while tho not perfect [it is run by humans after all] it is pretty good now.
Well after reading all this and the other many,many threads regarding this issue I can only see one point can be made.
Its not about what CCP did or didn't do any more its about getting the respect and trust of their paying customers back.
And its fine for all the BoBettes and Goonies etc to banter this all around but until CCP does what every other Gaming company does and restrict its employee's from being able to give unfair help to others, this will keep coming back to bite them, be it TRUE OR NOT.
I know that some are your friends but that CCP's fault for not making this standard practice from the start. When taking and employing people from within the game you will always end up with this.
Even if this is ....... as people say some one trying to pull CCP down, hey if they put this right there is no one can say jack because there will be no one to point the finger at.
I see those saying this is Tinfoiling or something or forum trawling but what ever it is just the fact that people still care enough to post here or the 170+ pages on their own forums should tell CCP people arn't happy and won't forget.
And I remember the heady days off 33k online and now ? best i've seen for awhile is 28k maybe people are doing what Kieron said.
CCP kieron
(If you feel we as an entity are corrupt and abhorrent, we bid you good luck in finding a game and company that suits your interests.)Damn shame to see people leave I would hope we could all agree on that...
Sorry for long post but I was away when this all kicked off so have been saving this up
If CCP were transparent and actually took the correct actions to begin with, we woudn't be having this discussion.
Everyone involved should have been made publically aware of their firing, and all players involved should have been banned.
That didn't happen... and everything was hush hush, and posts deleted.
Can you blame people for thinking something underhanded is going on when the people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible?
wow, you sound like an adult and very smart/reasonable about this situation. I think you summed it up very nicely....
The people who are supposed to be responsible are not being responsible........
I think its pretty obvious that CCP promotes cheaters when a player gets cheated and their response is tough, suck it up and live with it, and they refuse to admit the possible exploits. They create new systems that create more exploits ( contracts among others)...
basically the law says that if your aiding and abeding a crime, your part of the crime, and that is how I feel with player corruption, CCP is aiding and abeding if not outright helping....
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.