I prefer sandbox skills vs. levels. So much that it kind if disgusts me that people would actually prefer to force themselves to follow the path of a set class in levels.
I prefer sandbox skills vs. levels. So much that it kind if disgusts me that people would actually prefer to force themselves to follow the path of a set class in levels.
it makes for better group play.
Everyone can see who the tank is. Who the damage dealer, buffer, healer etc.
Bladin, I don't think I disagree with you at any point (just want to make that clear).
I guess what we want is to achieve the same goal using two different systems. (you like the class system, I like skill-based). This is just our own preference to which one offers the "uniqueness" we want, I like the idea of uniqueness in my character, you like the idea of uniqueness in the role. I think that the two system aren't that much different, in the sense that they can both achieve the diversity people are looking for (when implemented correctly).
(Hmm... Just a personal thought, how did we go from Skill vs Level to Skill vs Class?)
Anyway, back to the similar yet different topic of skill based vs. level based. They are both character progression system, but are based on different idea of HOW the character should progress.
Skill-based focus on the skill part of the progression, which is following the idea of ever-learning nature of people in the world. So you progress your character on learning new skills.
Level-based focus on the "rank" of progression, which they used a number to represent (easiest to define, code, and balance.). Your progression is shown as a number, and for every increment, you get improved stat and new skill (which normally is linked to a class system.)
I just don't like to see that number. If it were hidden, and in its place a ranking system that can show who is higher rank, it will be better (for the immersion reason). Like I stated before, I rather have be a ranked (Master ___ , Golden Master ___, etc...) then numberd (Level XX ___ ). With the skill-based system, the ranking would work well, and that's why I prefer skill when it comes to Skill vs Level.
The sandbox idea is nice, but when you think about it do you really want to be able to access everything right from the start of the game?
Levels not only make the person feel like they are progressing more, but it also is a way to deny content to people who are of to low level access to certain places. This gives players something to look forward to as the progress.
Most MMOs are about progression and skill systems don't seem to offer as much in that portion of the game.
Perhaps levels make players a bit to powerful, but I'm sure a compramise could be made so that people of lower level could group with a wider level range.
Class/Levels are good for the farmers (pve'ers) because you guys need constant progression whether it loot or levels or story content. you guys burn it all up
skill based (linear progression) better for pvp or no progression at all (FPS). pvpers create dynamic content for each other. every fight unique.
Most MMOs are about progression and skill systems don't seem to offer as much in that portion of the game. Perhaps levels make players a bit to powerful, but I'm sure a compramise could be made so that people of lower level could group with a wider level range.
Yes most MMO's are about progression and skill based systems don't mesh well with that design but why should they? Why does every persistent world MMO game HAVE to have the same fundamental concept of emphasizing toon building? Innovation in game design used to be highly desirable. Now, developers seem to be working over time at figuring out ways to repackage the same tired ideas over and over.
Time to break the EQ mold and flush the mundane approach of one-size-fits-all MMO design.
Class and levels seem to go hand in hand. The sandbox idea is nice, but when you think about it do you really want to be able to access everything right from the start of the game?
Yes, and that is the appeal of a sandbox game - you get to access everything from the start and you can design your character with the full picture (you can do that with class/level, but some likes the freedom that skill-based offer)
Levels not only make the person feel like they are progressing more, but it also is a way to deny content to people who are of to low level access to certain places. This gives players something to look forward to as the progress.
Again, in a skill-based, sandbox world, you don't really need to deny content to players until certain level. You can still design that only when the players reach certain point will they be safe to travel in the area. The sandbox design requires the players to figure out the world as they go and explore, and learn about the game. That, and the skill system together, is the progression system.
Most MMOs are about progression and skill systems don't seem to offer as much in that portion of the game.
Read my above comment on skill system progression...
Perhaps levels make players a bit to powerful, but I'm sure a compramise could be made so that people of lower level could group with a wider level range.
Although different, the skill-based system can still be a effective progression system just as a level system is. It's up to the developers to design the game according to the system they wanted. And I wanted to see more skill-based progression instead of the saturated level system design.
Generally I believe that skill and level based systems are exactly the same, the only difference is semantics.
In level based games I go out and swing that sword 500,000 times to kill so many bad guys. With each bad guy I get xp and after so much xp I go up a level. As my level increases my skill, hp, strength, accuracy... go up and I am better able to kill bad guys.
In skill based games I go out and swing that sword 500,000 times. With each swing my skill goes up, and I am better able to do more damage, accuracy... better able to kill bad guys.
In the end you get the exact same thing, the exact same way, doing the exact same thing. But one we call skills the other we call levels.
Even the comparison for newbs versus vets doesnt' work. Because the vet will have higher skills than the newb and so generally can destroy them.
IMO there is only one thing that a skill system MAY do better, but that is totally up to the devs if they choose to implement it this way. In a skill based system you may be able to CHOOSE the skills you want to train, to end up with the exact (hopefully) type of class/character you want. In a level based system you choose your class and the skills come whether you like them or not. However this is totally dependent on whether the devs implement this or not AND you can have this system in levels too. Like Horizons did, where you can choose whatever class you want, whenever you want.
Just my two cents, there is no real difference. It is just how the devs implement them.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Level based: You are a Paladi, and will always be, you will never be something else than the Paladin next to you, you are just a Paladin.
Skill based: You build what you want.
Basicly it boils down to choice. One offers no choice. The other offers you the choice to be what you want to be, be it the "typical" paladin, or your own. It's your choice, your pick, your playstyle.
As for "learning to be the role, and uniqueness", both Skill and Level based games are almost the same. You still have to learn how to play your skill choices / class. And the game experience offered is unique for your paladin, just as it's unique for what you chosed to be.
I'd pick Skill based over classbased any day. Why? Because I like choices, I like creating my own character, own style. I like to make my character based on my belief of how a "Paladin" should be, not on the belief of some developer that may or may not have a totally different idea of what a "Paladin" is.
Pressing buttons on a hotbar doesn't require skill.
The "skill" in skill-based normally means character skill, not player skill. Don't confuse the two.
And how do you use a skill in a game? combo or buttons, since it is the way of input. Until you get a VR system where you can perform the action, the "pressing button to activate character skill" is here to stay.
In WoW if you pick Druid, that's all you'll ever be. A Druid. Your character can be nothing else.
In Pre-CU SWG you could be ANYTHING. You could be ANY combination of ANYTHING. You could be a Doctor and a Rifleman, a Ranger and a Teras Kasi Artist. And in the end, you could drop it all and start anew. ALL WITH ONE CHARACTER.
Class based systems are not as choiceless as you guys make them out to be.
In WoW there is a talent system so you can customize you class to be what you want it to be. This talent system is not far off of what a skill system is. LOTRO has a similiar thing using traits.
Each class has it's own unique abilities instead of drawing abilities from the parrent class lik you would in a skill system. So overall you have a larger variety of abiliities to choose from.
The class/level system works better for groups and character progression. It's a lot easier to balence content/set a goal for the players.
In the skill system you only advantage is you can take a little of everything, but that is what hybrid classes are for. Ever played a Druid/Shaman/Paladin? These are all hybrids of multiple classes. Jacks of all trades and masters of none.
Anyway I think skill based games are okay, but they don't have the most important element usually which is good character progression and group content.
People who play these games usually don't care about that. Thats okay too do what you want. Developers want to make the most money though so they will do what appeals to the majority of players. Most people don't want to make their own adventures "sandbox". Thats what they are paying the developers to do.
Class based systems are not as choiceless as you guys make them out to be. In WoW there is a talent system so you can customize you class to be what you want it to be. This talent system is not far off of what a skill system is. LOTRO has a similiar thing using traits. Each class has it's own unique abilities instead of drawing abilities from the parrent class lik you would in a skill system. So overall you have a larger variety of abiliities to choose from. The class/level system works better for groups and character progression. It's a lot easier to balence content/set a goal for the players. In the skill system you only advantage is you can take a little of everything, but that is what hybrid classes are for. Ever played a Druid/Shaman/Paladin? These are all hybrids of multiple classes. Jacks of all trades and masters of none. Anyway I think skill based games are okay, but they don't have the most important element usually which is good character progression and group content. People who play these games usually don't care about that. Thats okay too do what you want. Developers want to make the most money though so they will do what appeals to the majority of players. Most people don't want to make their own adventures "sandbox". Thats what they are paying the developers to do.
Flyte27, I disagree with you that class base is better at character progression. A player may want to progress in a linear format (which class/level system offers), but the said player may also want to develop his character according to his play style (which skill-based is better at).
All in all, it's all about giving the players choices, therefore I think a hybrid system where class aren't the dominating system would be better, but I guess every gamers want different things...
By the way, it's the content that's making it harder for a sandbox to work well, but with a right tool in the game, and the right system, it should be something that can give even the most popular MMO a run for its money. (Again, I have to say that you don't know for sure what most people want. I don't either, and I don't think anyone knows for sure what most players want. The company aren't making sandbox because the developers didn't like it, and they think since they don't like it, the gamers don't either. If you have developers that love the sandbox style, and focus on develop it to the fullest, you will get different result. So I rather make a system that can in ways satisfy enough players with the choices it offers than say that since the most popular games are class/level system therefore it prove that gamers don't like sandbox games.)
Comments
it makes for better group play.
Everyone can see who the tank is. Who the damage dealer, buffer, healer etc.
Easy to get groups with a decent dynamic.
I guess what we want is to achieve the same goal using two different systems. (you like the class system, I like skill-based). This is just our own preference to which one offers the "uniqueness" we want, I like the idea of uniqueness in my character, you like the idea of uniqueness in the role. I think that the two system aren't that much different, in the sense that they can both achieve the diversity people are looking for (when implemented correctly).
(Hmm... Just a personal thought, how did we go from Skill vs Level to Skill vs Class?)
Anyway, back to the similar yet different topic of skill based vs. level based. They are both character progression system, but are based on different idea of HOW the character should progress.
Skill-based focus on the skill part of the progression, which is following the idea of ever-learning nature of people in the world. So you progress your character on learning new skills.
Level-based focus on the "rank" of progression, which they used a number to represent (easiest to define, code, and balance.). Your progression is shown as a number, and for every increment, you get improved stat and new skill (which normally is linked to a class system.)
I just don't like to see that number. If it were hidden, and in its place a ranking system that can show who is higher rank, it will be better (for the immersion reason). Like I stated before, I rather have be a ranked (Master ___ , Golden Master ___, etc...) then numberd (Level XX ___ ). With the skill-based system, the ranking would work well, and that's why I prefer skill when it comes to Skill vs Level.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Class and levels seem to go hand in hand.
The sandbox idea is nice, but when you think about it do you really want to be able to access everything right from the start of the game?
Levels not only make the person feel like they are progressing more, but it also is a way to deny content to people who are of to low level access to certain places. This gives players something to look forward to as the progress.
Most MMOs are about progression and skill systems don't seem to offer as much in that portion of the game.
Perhaps levels make players a bit to powerful, but I'm sure a compramise could be made so that people of lower level could group with a wider level range.
Class/Levels are good for the farmers (pve'ers) because you guys need constant progression whether it loot or levels or story content. you guys burn it all up
skill based (linear progression) better for pvp or no progression at all (FPS). pvpers create dynamic content for each other. every fight unique.
that simple
Time to break the EQ mold and flush the mundane approach of one-size-fits-all MMO design.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Generally I believe that skill and level based systems are exactly the same, the only difference is semantics.
In level based games I go out and swing that sword 500,000 times to kill so many bad guys. With each bad guy I get xp and after so much xp I go up a level. As my level increases my skill, hp, strength, accuracy... go up and I am better able to kill bad guys.
In skill based games I go out and swing that sword 500,000 times. With each swing my skill goes up, and I am better able to do more damage, accuracy... better able to kill bad guys.
In the end you get the exact same thing, the exact same way, doing the exact same thing. But one we call skills the other we call levels.
Even the comparison for newbs versus vets doesnt' work. Because the vet will have higher skills than the newb and so generally can destroy them.
IMO there is only one thing that a skill system MAY do better, but that is totally up to the devs if they choose to implement it this way. In a skill based system you may be able to CHOOSE the skills you want to train, to end up with the exact (hopefully) type of class/character you want. In a level based system you choose your class and the skills come whether you like them or not. However this is totally dependent on whether the devs implement this or not AND you can have this system in levels too. Like Horizons did, where you can choose whatever class you want, whenever you want.
Just my two cents, there is no real difference. It is just how the devs implement them.
Venge Sunsoar
Level base WoW/EQ1&2/LOTRO etc = linear and communism
Level based: You are a Paladi, and will always be, you will never be something else than the Paladin next to you, you are just a Paladin.
Skill based: You build what you want.
Basicly it boils down to choice. One offers no choice. The other offers you the choice to be what you want to be, be it the "typical" paladin, or your own. It's your choice, your pick, your playstyle.
As for "learning to be the role, and uniqueness", both Skill and Level based games are almost the same. You still have to learn how to play your skill choices / class. And the game experience offered is unique for your paladin, just as it's unique for what you chosed to be.
I'd pick Skill based over classbased any day. Why? Because I like choices, I like creating my own character, own style. I like to make my character based on my belief of how a "Paladin" should be, not on the belief of some developer that may or may not have a totally different idea of what a "Paladin" is.
I guess I just don't like being "shoehorned".
"Skill based" The key word in there is "skill"
Pressing buttons on a hotbar doesn't require skill.
And how do you use a skill in a game? combo or buttons, since it is the way of input. Until you get a VR system where you can perform the action, the "pressing button to activate character skill" is here to stay.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
In WoW if you pick Druid, that's all you'll ever be. A Druid. Your character can be nothing else.
In Pre-CU SWG you could be ANYTHING. You could be ANY combination of ANYTHING. You could be a Doctor and a Rifleman, a Ranger and a Teras Kasi Artist. And in the end, you could drop it all and start anew. ALL WITH ONE CHARACTER.
Class based systems are not as choiceless as you guys make them out to be.
In WoW there is a talent system so you can customize you class to be what you want it to be. This talent system is not far off of what a skill system is. LOTRO has a similiar thing using traits.
Each class has it's own unique abilities instead of drawing abilities from the parrent class lik you would in a skill system. So overall you have a larger variety of abiliities to choose from.
The class/level system works better for groups and character progression. It's a lot easier to balence content/set a goal for the players.
In the skill system you only advantage is you can take a little of everything, but that is what hybrid classes are for. Ever played a Druid/Shaman/Paladin? These are all hybrids of multiple classes. Jacks of all trades and masters of none.
Anyway I think skill based games are okay, but they don't have the most important element usually which is good character progression and group content.
People who play these games usually don't care about that. Thats okay too do what you want. Developers want to make the most money though so they will do what appeals to the majority of players. Most people don't want to make their own adventures "sandbox". Thats what they are paying the developers to do.
All in all, it's all about giving the players choices, therefore I think a hybrid system where class aren't the dominating system would be better, but I guess every gamers want different things...
By the way, it's the content that's making it harder for a sandbox to work well, but with a right tool in the game, and the right system, it should be something that can give even the most popular MMO a run for its money. (Again, I have to say that you don't know for sure what most people want. I don't either, and I don't think anyone knows for sure what most players want. The company aren't making sandbox because the developers didn't like it, and they think since they don't like it, the gamers don't either. If you have developers that love the sandbox style, and focus on develop it to the fullest, you will get different result. So I rather make a system that can in ways satisfy enough players with the choices it offers than say that since the most popular games are class/level system therefore it prove that gamers don't like sandbox games.)
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)