I think you have some good points there Ice, but I want to expand on one of them -- the "apology" part.
Here's the thing: They've said a few times either by implication or once or twice directly that the NGE "was a mistake." But my concern here even if they apologize is, why do they think it was a mistake? It's a mistake to them because they lost subscribers and company rep. On the other hand, it was a mistake, by my lights, because what they did was unethical and inexcusable. That is, they think it was bad because it had a bad end. I think it's bad because, whatever the ends, the means were unacceptable. If we let them get away with "the end was bad so we apologize" then we are just as bad as they are, allowing the end to justify the means.
So, if they want to truly apologize, what they have to do is back up and say, "The end we were trying to achieve did not justify the unacceptable means we used to get there." These unacceptable means include (1) overtly and knowingly misleading people about the expansion to get them to buy it when they otherwise would not; (2) as part of that deception, purposely waiting until the day after everyone's CC account was charged to announce the massive upcoming change; (3) making all sorts of minor changes to the CU to purposely preserve the illusion that they were working on it and keep the NGE a secret; (4) refusing to even remotely consider that what the vet players were saying had some validity; (5) caring about the potential market more than the current fans.
They have never apologized for any of that (and I doubt they ever will). When they say they "made a mistake," I do not get the feeling that they thought any of those 5 things were, themselves, a mistake, but rather, they think that "something" they did with the NGE lost them subscriptions. I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts most of them have no idea why they got so hammered in the subscription/reputation department. Their closest answer seems to be that once they found out we wouldn't like it, they should've launched it more slowly or maybe on alternate servers or something. But they don't understand why we didn't like it. Yes some of that was them changing our old game, but the main factor was them utterly dismissing long-time, multi-year customers as irrelevant and thinking they could treat us any old crappy way they wanted and we'd still re-up our subs.
Now, this is partly our fault, because we HAD been loyal to the game through a lot of BS. The rangers and BEs can tell you about this. Skill boxes that had no skills... skills that didn't work... recipe ingredients that never existed... uncraftable camo kits... etc... They stuck with it and were loyal, and I'm not really faulting that. After all I stuck with it through all sorts of Entertainer problems. But SOE took from this "No matter what we pull these idiot players still have 3 accounts each and keep paying us so we can do no wrong."
Of course what they did not count on was that it was not Star Wars that we were loyal to (the only thing, literally, that stayed the same from launch to NGE is the Star Wars theme, however corrupted and mis-handled), but the original game system, with all its flaws. But again, by sticking through the CU, which should have been unacceptable to most of us, and all the problems for months and years, they just thought they could keep messing with us.
This does not excuse their behavior... I am not blaming the victim. But, when they decided to do the 5 unethical and unacceptable things I mentioned above, if anyone raised objections, I'm sure that they said, "Don't worry, these players live to be abused. Look how we've treated them so far. We've got them hooked." And it is that attitude ("Don't worry, even though what we are doing is wrong the players will let us") that they need to be sorry for. That's the part that was unethical. Making a mistake is a mistake, and is not, by itself, unethical. Knowing you are doing wrong, doing evil, and doing it anyway just because you think you can, that is unethical.
So, if SOE wants me to change my tune about SWG, they not only need to apologize, for "making mistakes", but they need to be entirely specific and repentant about the reasons why these were mistakes. In short they would need to release an official statement that says something like this:
"We did purposely trick people into buying an expansion using false advertising, and we apologize for that. We knew you would all hate the NGE, and that is why we waited to announce it until we charged your CCs for the expansion, and we are sorry we did that. It was wrong. We even tried to deceive you further by making irrelevant changes to the CU that we knew would be over-written by the NGE, and for that we apologize. It was unethical. We tossed aside everything our loyal customers said and did, every suggestion they made, because we did not value them as highly as we valued the idea of all those people not playing the game. We listened to people who didn't play rather than who did. That was wrong, because our current players had been loyal to us, and we should have repaid that loyalty in kind. We are sorry. For all these things we apologize. We understand why what we did was wrong, and will never do any of those things again."
That would be a real apology with some teeth.
Of course, we will never get it. But... if they just say, "We're sorry we rolled out the NGE the way they did," that means nothing to me. It means not that they are sorry about what they did to us, but about what the NGE did to them.
As a final note, Ice, I know you know all these things, and I 'm not posting this to argue but to add my own thoughts... I'm expanding on what I think "they need to apologize" has got to mean. Just "we made a mistake, sorry" ain't gonna cut it with me, or a lot of vets. What they did was not "a mistake" -- it was willful set of malicious, dirty tricks designed to scoop in money and disregard customer loyalty, time, effort, etc. It was on purpose, in other words. They only view it as a mistake because it failed, not because it was wrong. And until that changes we have gotten nowhere.
C
First Chessack, thanks for saving this thread from devolving into another flame fest. Perhaps I can give a bit of reasoning behind why I said what I did.
I'm only looking at starting points here. SOE has claimed they want to really bring back some vets. I'm not saying I buy it or not. I'm simply saying if they want to, let's see some action to start. Before anything can be done, there needs to be an apology.
The reason I made the apology so vague is quite frankly, there are a million ways the NGE went wrong. Many people might have a serious case of schedenfreude (sp?) watching Sony grovel, but I don't think that is realistic. (though it would be theraputic for a second lol.) They admit they made a mistake. Well, they haven't truly admitted to anything until there is an apology. That was my simple point. As far as unethical and inexcusable (as well as downright stupid from a business standpoint), both of us are in agreement, and I've been hitting that noet time and time again.
But once there has been an apology, what is there next to do? Personally, I'd like to see them affirm to some 6 point plan or so, one of them being going on record stating that they will not bring forth engine altering mechanics. But that is more a pipe dream. I guess I'm just trying to theroize (everyone who reads my posts knows I love to theorize lol) that if Sony wants to develop a realistic olive branch, so at least people can generally say "hey, that's a start in the right direction" then we can move onto everything else.
But the entire bait and switch thing you mention would make that tough. Short of a full refund, there really is no way to atone for what they did with that. Even the most ardent pro-nge fanbois (think Obraik), admitted that the entire expansion release and switch was pretty shady. Our former managing editor slammed it as downright dishonest and unethical. Me, I guess if they demonstrated real resolve towards listening to the vets (which they have never done), I'd be willing to forgive on this point. I can understand where most would not.
I'm confused.....I thought the CU just made it so the average joe like myself could have fun AND gain skills rather then one or the other as when I played pre-cu the average player had to choose to experience the game and have fun or skill and in the CU you could mix and match, and IMO the changes made between JTL and CU were not as good as the CU changes, as I personally liked the skill changes in the CU, but missed traveling the land. And by liked the skill changes I meant I liked to be in one piece preferably with some kick ass rebel lackeys, rather then dead with no lackeys.
I'm confused.....I thought the CU just made it so the average joe like myself could have fun AND gain skills rather then one or the other as when I played pre-cu the average player had to choose to experience the game and have fun or skill and in the CU you could mix and match, and IMO the changes made between JTL and CU were not as good as the CU changes, as I personally liked the skill changes in the CU, but missed traveling the land. And by liked the skill changes I meant I liked to be in one piece preferably with some kick ass rebel lackeys, rather then dead with no lackeys.
There was always the option to gain skills and have fun LOL. In the CU, the respec tool was introduced. Which basically let you completely rebuild your characters skill template on the fly. Although you could only use it a certain number of times. But still, gaining skill experience in CU was no different than pre-CU. In fact, I believe characters were getting more experience in the CU than in pre-CU.
I'm confused.....I thought the CU just made it so the average joe like myself could have fun AND gain skills rather then one or the other as when I played pre-cu the average player had to choose to experience the game and have fun or skill and in the CU you could mix and match, and IMO the changes made between JTL and CU were not as good as the CU changes, as I personally liked the skill changes in the CU, but missed traveling the land. And by liked the skill changes I meant I liked to be in one piece preferably with some kick ass rebel lackeys, rather then dead with no lackeys.
There was always the option to gain skills and have fun LOL. In the CU, the respec tool was introduced. Which basically let you completely rebuild your characters skill template on the fly. Although you could only use it a certain number of times. But still, gaining skill experience in CU was no different than pre-CU. In fact, I believe characters were getting more experience in the CU than in pre-CU.
If you were grouped, XP gain in the CU way outstripped anything you might have gained before.
One of the fun things that happened during the CU is three months after it went live, the devs nerfed the XP gain in groups drastically, saying that the XP gain was not intended.
But it took them three kriffing months to figure this out. By this time, everyone and their mother was acclimated to the boosted XP gain in groups (and thought, quite understandably, that it WAS intended to encourage more group play) and were infuriated by the change. The account server probably got close to meltdown with cancellations, which caused SOE to abruptly backtrack, and they never got the reduction in group XP to stick until they did everything else in the NGE.
In retrospect, they should have been paying attention to their customers in August of 2005 when this happened. It foreshadowed the playerbase reaction to the NGE.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I'm only looking at starting points here. SOE has claimed they want to really bring back some vets. I'm not saying I buy it or not. I'm simply saying if they want to, let's see some action to start. Before anything can be done, there needs to be an apology. The reason I made the apology so vague is quite frankly, there are a million ways the NGE went wrong. Many people might have a serious case of schedenfreude (sp?) watching Sony grovel, but I don't think that is realistic. (though it would be theraputic for a second lol.) They admit they made a mistake. Well, they haven't truly admitted to anything until there is an apology. That was my simple point. As far as unethical and inexcusable (as well as downright stupid from a business standpoint), both of us are in agreement, and I've been hitting that note time and time again. But once there has been an apology, what is there next to do? Personally, I'd like to see them affirm to some 6 point plan or so, one of them being going on record stating that they will not bring forth engine altering mechanics.
As I said in my post I was not disagreeing with you but expanding on the concept of the apology. Your OP basically said, "They need to more than just admit a mistake; they need to apologize for it." You're right, as far as that goes.
But...
... my point here is, what do they think the mistake was? This is not just an argument of semantics. If they don't even really understand what they're apologizing for, they're likely to just turn around and do it again... and again. After all look at the repeated behavior of SOE over the years with this game and the repeated underhanded, shady, dishonest dealings they have engaged in -- not just the NGE. That was only the most obvious and inexcusable example of it. They keep saying, each time they do these things, that, oops, they screwed up, and they will work to change. But they never do, and I'm quite convinced at this point that it's because of one of two things. Either they (a) honestly and truly do not understand what it is they are even apologizing for, or (b) they aren't really sincere and are just mollifying us. Maybe it's a little of both.
Either way, if they don't come clean in their apology not only by saying they are sorry but (as in my example) making it quite clear that they know what they are sorry for, then we will just have repeat after repeat of the same thing. After all, we have had repeat after repeat of the same behavior for years from them, usually within days of their "admission of culpability" type posts. Again, if they don't even know what it is they need to apologize for, saying "We're sorry" is just words.
As to them groveling, perhaps I came across that way but this is not my purpose -- to see them grovel. No, it's not about groveling and it's not about revenge. It's about the fact that when you really screw up, if you are going to try to earn back trust, you have to demonstrate clearly that you know what you did that was wrong, so that the offended party knows it at least might not happen again.
When I was a kid and got caught at something and issued an insincere apology my mother would often ask, "Are you really sorry you did it, or just sorry you got caught?" (or got punished). Implicit in her question is that there is a difference. If you're just sorry you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, the next time it's not being watched, you'll try for another cookie. But if you really are sorry you tried to grab a cookie that wasn't yours (to use a silly example) then even months later when nobody is there to watch you, you won't try to steal one.
So... this is not about SOE groveling or being made to look foolish. (They've already made themselves look far more foolish than any of us ever could dream of doing.) This is about them owning up... about them demonstrating in no uncertain terms that they know exactly what it is that they did wrong, so that we can be reasonably sure they won't do it again. Otherwise, if it's just, "We're sorry we lost subscribers" rather than "We're sorry for the bad things we did," then they are liable to turn around and do them again the second they have us back.
I'm only looking at starting points here. SOE has claimed they want to really bring back some vets. I'm not saying I buy it or not. I'm simply saying if they want to, let's see some action to start. Before anything can be done, there needs to be an apology. The reason I made the apology so vague is quite frankly, there are a million ways the NGE went wrong. Many people might have a serious case of schedenfreude (sp?) watching Sony grovel, but I don't think that is realistic. (though it would be theraputic for a second lol.) They admit they made a mistake. Well, they haven't truly admitted to anything until there is an apology. That was my simple point. As far as unethical and inexcusable (as well as downright stupid from a business standpoint), both of us are in agreement, and I've been hitting that note time and time again. But once there has been an apology, what is there next to do? Personally, I'd like to see them affirm to some 6 point plan or so, one of them being going on record stating that they will not bring forth engine altering mechanics.
As I said in my post I was not disagreeing with you but expanding on the concept of the apology. Your OP basically said, "They need to more than just admit a mistake; they need to apologize for it." You're right, as far as that goes.
But...
... my point here is, what do they think the mistake was? This is not just an argument of semantics. If they don't even really understand what they're apologizing for, they're likely to just turn around and do it again... and again. After all look at the repeated behavior of SOE over the years with this game and the repeated underhanded, shady, dishonest dealings they have engaged in -- not just the NGE. That was only the most obvious and inexcusable example of it. They keep saying, each time they do these things, that, oops, they screwed up, and they will work to change. But they never do, and I'm quite convinced at this point that it's because of one of two things. Either they (a) honestly and truly do not understand what it is they are even apologizing for, or (b) they aren't really sincere and are just mollifying us. Maybe it's a little of both.
Either way, if they don't come clean in their apology not only by saying they are sorry but (as in my example) making it quite clear that they know what they are sorry for, then we will just have repeat after repeat of the same thing. After all, we have had repeat after repeat of the same behavior for years from them, usually within days of their "admission of culpability" type posts. Again, if they don't even know what it is they need to apologize for, saying "We're sorry" is just words.
As to them groveling, perhaps I came across that way but this is not my purpose -- to see them grovel. No, it's not about groveling and it's not about revenge. It's about the fact that when you really screw up, if you are going to try to earn back trust, you have to demonstrate clearly that you know what you did that was wrong, so that the offended party knows it at least might not happen again.
When I was a kid and got caught at something and issued an insincere apology my mother would often ask, "Are you really sorry you did it, or just sorry you got caught?" (or got punished). Implicit in her question is that there is a difference. If you're just sorry you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, the next time it's not being watched, you'll try for another cookie. But if you really are sorry you tried to grab a cookie that wasn't yours (to use a silly example) then even months later when nobody is there to watch you, you won't try to steal one.
So... this is not about SOE groveling or being made to look foolish. (They've already made themselves look far more foolish than any of us ever could dream of doing.) This is about them owning up... about them demonstrating in no uncertain terms that they know exactly what it is that they did wrong, so that we can be reasonably sure they won't do it again. Otherwise, if it's just, "We're sorry we lost subscribers" rather than "We're sorry for the bad things we did," then they are liable to turn around and do them again the second they have us back.
C
Based on what Smedley has said in public, they so far are admitting that making radical design alterings to a game is a mistake. One could say implicitly with the refund they thoguht the bait and switch was a mistake, but they need to be a bit more explicit. So far they admit that making massive changes in the pursuit of better numbers is a mistake. (At least Smedley admitted such was a mistake when he promised those at Vangaurd he would not make such sweeping changes like the NGE.) If one can get this said formally and not just an off the cuff forum post, I think it's a step in the right direction. (As I said in my original post, I don't have much faith in that, so this remains in theory only.)
Well IMO they should do a roll back to CU not Pre-CU as Pre-CU the game was fun, but very buggy and man of the planets were nearly empty when I played. Well, that plus I liked the small army of re specs I had gathered as that made it possible for me to mess around and try out different classes. Just my 2 cents.
Well IMO they should do a roll back to CU not Pre-CU as Pre-CU the game was fun, but very buggy and man of the planets were nearly empty when I played. Well, that plus I liked the small army of re specs I had gathered as that made it possible for me to mess around and try out different classes. Just my 2 cents.
Again, I rarely post here, but I think I have a thought or two that is meaningful to this discussion.
I think Sony needs to do several things in order to re-establish itself with the vet population.
The idea of "rolled back servers". I agree this would be the best solution, but it has two hurdles that I can see. First is finacial. Will it gain enough subs back to justify the cost of such an endevor? How can they get some cold hard numbers to take to the finacial section? Second is programming. Fisrt step in that is to free up a server (or get a brand new one. I think clearing one out is cheeper, but I am not a MMO scripter) That means they need to overcome how to shift complete playerbase of data from one server to another. And I bet you they never thought of it originally so they have to completely code from scratch and figure out a way to handle any glitches that happens along the way. Once they have a clean server, they need to figure out a way to have two versions of the game exist simaltaniously, both in their server databases, but also on a player's computers. Again, I bet you there's no coding in place to help that from the beginning.
Now all of this is alot of time, effort and money, just on a hunch (And we have seen how those work out for them in the past) that they might get enough subs to finacially justify this. At this point they have the tools figure out if it is finacially viable.
Next is how to present it without hamstringing the NGE (which is their currect pay base) What I would propose is a "beta lottery" to test out the feasability of a rolled back server (note that I have suggested they have the tools to follow through on it before doing this step) and look at the numbers. Have a slot on the registration to have your old disk code to be put in so they can see how many non-paying players would be interrested in re-subbing. If the number of non-paying players that sign up is greater than the current NGE player base, then the conclusion is simple, that it is the way to go finacially.
Now comes the most complicated part. As players, you know that the old player data maybe unrecoverable from the old code. Are you all, as a player base, able to accept you may have to start over on this type of server? The complications of trying to recover old account data from a previous generation maybe beyond they ability, simply because no one thought of the possibility of needing to go back and having saved that data for that purpose.
The last thing they would need to do is to hire someone, as both a spokesman, as wel as someone with a voice within the SOE management, to protect/guide this project that has the project as his/her first priority instead of the obvious politics/pressures that is behind the sceens at SOE. That is in a position to say NO to ideas that can and would alienate this fragile fan base. That has taking care of the game and player base as his first priority.
These are my thoughts on how to finally solve this, in a method that would hopefully restore the basic level of confidence from both sides to make a project like this work.
I hope this inspires some thought. Thank you for your time.
I voted "I would never re-sub". I want to explain why, though.
The main reason I would not re-sub is because after what they have done, I don't trust SOE. I don't trust that they won't just screw up the game again if they start classic servers. I don't trust that they will support classic servers properly. I have seen them, repeatedly, in the past, purposely not support something so that players won't do it, and then claim "lack of player interest" as the reason they didn't support it. They did this during the pre-CU game with, for example, Rangers, BEs, Dancers, Image Designers, and Musicians, at least (possibly more). Every time Entertainers asked for anything -- be it bug fixes, improved content, anything at all -- our correspondent would tell us that we were just "not a priority" because there were "so few of us." I finally ended up making a long post entitled "Players do what you reward them to do" in which I debunked the whole idea that they were ignoring us because "nobody played Entertainers." The truth was, instead, that after months and months of lack of support from the devs, who did zero for Entertainers over long stretches of time, there was nobody left to play Entertainers. SOE thus created a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I am not convinced that they would not just do the same thing over again. I would worry that they wouldn't want a pre-CU to succeed. It would prove them to have been wrong for all this time. It would prove how stupid they were. It would prove how much money they'd thrown away by having the NGE, and only the NGE, for SWG. It would prove in objective, quantifiable ways, just how stupid they are.
Based on their past behavior, on their willingness to apparently happily throw millions of dollars away just to avoid being proven wrong, I can't see the ego-maniacs at SOE properly supporting pre-CU. I could see them opening a couple of pre-pub 9 servers, still riddled with the pre-9 bugs, and then NOT fixing those bugs, and leaving the game a partially-completed mess. Players would come back, thrilled to have their old game back again, and then notice all over again, all the problems that existed pre-CU (it was not a flawless game, just a much better game than NGE). And SOE would not fix those problems, so after a couple of months, people, having had their SWG fix but not wanting to play a game that is still very buggy and has no CSR support, would slowly fade away. And just like with "unpopular" classes like Ranger and Entertainer, SOE will say, "See? We told you nobody wanted to play this."
I don't trust them to put forth an honest effort to make this work, in other words. Instead, what I would expect them to do is put forth just enough effort that it looks like they tried, say, "We didn't get enough people to support it," and pull the plug, hoping that this, finally, would mend some fences with the MMO community. All the editorials would say, "SOE tried hard to give its customers what they wanted," etc, etc. They would do this to fix their name. Only for as long as it was needed to fix their name. Then, they'd pull the plug.
You see, their behavior has made it so we can't trust them. I do not trust them to bring back pre-CU servers and support them to the degree that would be necessary to have a viable player base. They have shown time and again that they'd rather be right, than make a profit. Sounds crazy for a company in business to make money but look at the record. NGE destroyed the whole player base. If they'd wanted us back and wanted our money they'd have put up a couple of classic servers within weeks or months... before the damage was permanent. They didn't do that because they apparently would rather lose money than admit they were wrong. I can't see any other way to explain it. Oh yes, now, putting up classic SWG would be too hard/expensive. But weeks after the NGE was live? No... it would have been possible... but they didn't want to admit they were wrong.
Now, if we put the trust issue aside, I would not have a problem with them starting on a "clean" server. In fact I would recommend it. If I could trust them to run the game long term, support it long term, and let us play in the ultimate sandbox, I would want a clean server to start with. I don't need all my old crap... just a nice clean server, and hopefully a group of my old guildies who loved and still miss the great game that was.
It seems like many of the vets would never re-subscribe as they don't "trust" SOE anymore.
Which brings back the question, why in the world should SOE even bother to try and win back the vets when they have that attitude? Better for SOE to capture new players with the NGE, as they're doing now.
Back to playing my favorite game!
PS......look at the number of servers that are "heavy"!!
PS......look at the number of servers that are "heavy"!!
PS..... SOE changed the criteria for the number of players that defines a "heavy" server years ago. A post-NGE "heavy" server doesn't hold a candle to a pre-CU "light" server. Have fun in your ghost town.
PS......look at the number of servers that are "heavy"!!
PS..... SOE changed the criteria for the number of players that defines a "heavy" server years ago. A post-NGE "heavy" server doesn't hold a candle to a pre-CU "light" server. Have fun in your ghost town.
I hear this argument by the NGE-haters a lot, yet I see no proof to back it up. Sounds to me like you are grasping at straws with your conspiracy theories.
Because I am honestly interested, How many people do you HONESTLY think left the game because of the NGE?
I'd figure around 100K. If you roll it together with the CU, you're looking at around 150K-200K.
I left after the CU went live. Like many players, I went to WoW, and was bored within a year or so. I kept track of my SWG friends in WoW, and out of the two dozen or so that moved at the same time I did there's probably half a dozen still playing WoW.
Most of us would have gone back to a post-CU SWG. Going back to a post-NGE SWG? No thanks.
Not only was it a game-breaking move, but the way it was sprung on the consumer base was simply wrong. At least the CU was heavily tested and bore some semblance of what the player base wanted.
I'm not full of rage, but I am a consumer that votes with my wallet. Couple SOE's actions with Sony's anti-consumer actions as a whole (rootkits, proprietary formats, heavy-handed DRM, etc) and I've gone from being a Sony fan to being someone who wouldn't touch a Sony product with a ten foot pole. Time to buy a plasma to replace my Sony CRT? Bought a Panasonic. Time to replace the Sony digital camera? Bought a Canon. Goes on and on throughout the consumer electronics in my home. If only I could get my wife to swear off Sony recording artists.
I hear this argument by the NGE-haters a lot, yet I see no proof to back it up. Sounds to me like you are grasping at straws with your conspiracy theories.
Log on to one of these "heavy" servers. Find the most heavily-trafficed spot in the game. Take a time-stamped screenshot. Post it here.
Because I am honestly interested, How many people do you HONESTLY think left the game because of the NGE?
I'd figure around 100K. If you roll it together with the CU, you're looking at around 150K-200K.
I left after the CU went live. Like many players, I went to WoW, and was bored within a year or so. I kept track of my SWG friends in WoW, and out of the two dozen or so that moved at the same time I did there's probably half a dozen still playing WoW.
Most of us would have gone back to a post-CU SWG. Going back to a post-NGE SWG? No thanks.
Not only was it a game-breaking move, but the way it was sprung on the consumer base was simply wrong. At least the CU was heavily tested and bore some semblance of what the player base wanted.
I'm not full of rage, but I am a consumer that votes with my wallet. Couple SOE's actions with Sony's anti-consumer actions as a whole (rootkits, proprietary formats, heavy-handed DRM, etc) and I've gone from being a Sony fan to being someone who wouldn't touch a Sony product with a ten foot pole. Time to buy a plasma to replace my Sony CRT? Bought a Panasonic. Time to replace the Sony digital camera? Bought a Canon. Goes on and on throughout the consumer electronics in my home. If only I could get my wife to swear off Sony recording artists.
What do you think the total population of the game was at its peak?
I hear this argument by the NGE-haters a lot, yet I see no proof to back it up. Sounds to me like you are grasping at straws with your conspiracy theories.
Log on to one of these "heavy" servers. Find the most heavily-trafficed spot in the game. Take a time-stamped screenshot. Post it here.
I'll check back later.
Right... yeah, a single place in the game is an accurate measure of the population. Get real.
I'll think I'll educate you now on the continuity principle. Considering that at any point in time, a single player can only view other players that are around them. And, since all players are usually in continuous motion, if the original player went to another spot, that player may or may not view other players that were in the same position previously. Therefore, it is difficult to actually gague the game's true population. Not to mention that NGE has changed a lot of the player dynamics that were there in Pre-CU. These changes include:
2 or 3 characters per server. Therefore, unlike Pre-CU, players have multiple characters to play and level up. Therefore, they are not necessarily congregating at the social areas that you want to take a sample from. This is especially true of combat classes that follow the legacy quest.
No more doctor bufflines. That means there will be a reduced amount of people per area, unlike Pre-CU. Therefore, a presence of less players around in social areas (like Coronet was in Pre-CU).
A lot of veterans were maxed out on their characters during pre-CU. Therefore, they had nothing to do except socialize. However, with multiple characters per server, and people starting over, they are continuing with the development of their chracters. Thus, they will not necessarily be hanging out in social areas.
So, I say again, where is your proof for your claim. Until you give me proof, all your claim will be considered is a conspiracy theory. So, you better begin collecting your aluminum for your hat then.
What do you think the total population of the game was at its peak?
SOE annouced it when SWG hit 300K subs. They never annouced sub numbers again - pretty easy to figure out that 300K was the peak for SWG. It gets a little tricky when you try to factor in the number of unique subscribers, since multiple accounts were common among the hardcore playerbase.
PS......look at the number of servers that are "heavy"!!
PS..... SOE changed the criteria for the number of players that defines a "heavy" server years ago. A post-NGE "heavy" server doesn't hold a candle to a pre-CU "light" server. Have fun in your ghost town.
I hear this argument by the NGE-haters a lot, yet I see no proof to back it up. Sounds to me like you are grasping at straws with your conspiracy theories. The "proof" you demand is subscription numbers from SOE, which they will never give. Back in May 2005, my main server Corbantis went from being "Light" to "Medium" or "Heavy" literally overnight with a hot-fix. There was NO visible change in the number of people playing.
Right... yeah, a single place in the game is an accurate measure of the population. Get real.
I stopped reading your post around there. Educate me? LOL.
It's not about getting a total count for the population from one spot, it's about recoginizing that in any social game there are going to be hotspots. Pre-CU had the Dantooing mining outpost, for example. It wasn't the only one, but if the server was busy you could be the MO was busy.
You're telling me that you can't log onto one of these "heavy" servers (which in your opinion are just as "heavy" as pre-CU standards) and find a single place where there are a large number of people, large enough where you won't get laughed off of the forums by people who remember the pre-CU mining outpost on a "light" server?
You're telling me that somehow SOE has created a social game which, if I'm to believe the hype on Chapter 6, encourages grouping
yet there are no social hotspots in the game? And you're telling me I'm the one coming up with conspiracy theories?
The "proof" you demand is subscription numbers from SOE, which they will never give. Back in May 2005, my main server Corbantis went from being "Light" to "Medium" or "Heavy" literally overnight with a hot-fix. There was NO visible change in the number of people playing.
Excellent point, and to boot it was during a period that SOE has admitted was hit with a drop in subs (the immediate aftermath of the CU).
Thank you for the constructive feedback so far, I appriciate it.
Valid points have been made so far so I will address those that I have ideas on.
Trust. How would past players feel if Lucas Arts established direct control over the new "historic" servers and leave the NGE in Sony's hands? They may have the same tech support, but establish control over fixes and other aspects as they do over creative control of the Star Wars licence?
This does two things, acknowladgement to the alienated player base (and let's be honest, a great deal are Star Wars fans initially anyways) that mistakes were made, removes the trust issue out of the picture in order to provide the best chance the endevor would be profitable.
I have to agree that Sony does have alot of issues over "control" of it's buying base and their products, and has more interrest in maintaining that sometimes over taking care of the customer.
Second topic that was brought up (and totally off topic mind you) is the server levels once again. There maybe those that are labeled heavy, but without actual counts being established both before and after the changed, there is no way to certify what the terms mean, either before or after. And with the way things have been handled, we have no way to guarentee that the level before that is tracked as "heavy" is the same amount as now. Without Sony actually listing subscriber details to the public, and the fact that IF subscriber base was hiugher now than before they would say so tells me that the numbers have probably changed. Seeing that it is also common practice on other games to do so.
The "proof" you demand is subscription numbers from SOE, which they will never give. Back in May 2005, my main server Corbantis went from being "Light" to "Medium" or "Heavy" literally overnight with a hot-fix. There was NO visible change in the number of people playing.
Excellent point, and to boot it was during a period that SOE has admitted was hit with a drop in subs (the immediate aftermath of the CU).
I suspect that the change in structure decay (going from run out of maint and poof a week or so later to "condemned") was to preserve structures in the world to create a "Potemkin Village" effect of a populated world to the casual observer.
I just would not put such a deliberate decepiton past these guys.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Comments
First Chessack, thanks for saving this thread from devolving into another flame fest. Perhaps I can give a bit of reasoning behind why I said what I did.
I'm only looking at starting points here. SOE has claimed they want to really bring back some vets. I'm not saying I buy it or not. I'm simply saying if they want to, let's see some action to start. Before anything can be done, there needs to be an apology.
The reason I made the apology so vague is quite frankly, there are a million ways the NGE went wrong. Many people might have a serious case of schedenfreude (sp?) watching Sony grovel, but I don't think that is realistic. (though it would be theraputic for a second lol.) They admit they made a mistake. Well, they haven't truly admitted to anything until there is an apology. That was my simple point. As far as unethical and inexcusable (as well as downright stupid from a business standpoint), both of us are in agreement, and I've been hitting that noet time and time again.
But once there has been an apology, what is there next to do? Personally, I'd like to see them affirm to some 6 point plan or so, one of them being going on record stating that they will not bring forth engine altering mechanics. But that is more a pipe dream. I guess I'm just trying to theroize (everyone who reads my posts knows I love to theorize lol) that if Sony wants to develop a realistic olive branch, so at least people can generally say "hey, that's a start in the right direction" then we can move onto everything else.
But the entire bait and switch thing you mention would make that tough. Short of a full refund, there really is no way to atone for what they did with that. Even the most ardent pro-nge fanbois (think Obraik), admitted that the entire expansion release and switch was pretty shady. Our former managing editor slammed it as downright dishonest and unethical. Me, I guess if they demonstrated real resolve towards listening to the vets (which they have never done), I'd be willing to forgive on this point. I can understand where most would not.
There was always the option to gain skills and have fun LOL. In the CU, the respec tool was introduced. Which basically let you completely rebuild your characters skill template on the fly. Although you could only use it a certain number of times. But still, gaining skill experience in CU was no different than pre-CU. In fact, I believe characters were getting more experience in the CU than in pre-CU.
There was always the option to gain skills and have fun LOL. In the CU, the respec tool was introduced. Which basically let you completely rebuild your characters skill template on the fly. Although you could only use it a certain number of times. But still, gaining skill experience in CU was no different than pre-CU. In fact, I believe characters were getting more experience in the CU than in pre-CU.
If you were grouped, XP gain in the CU way outstripped anything you might have gained before.
One of the fun things that happened during the CU is three months after it went live, the devs nerfed the XP gain in groups drastically, saying that the XP gain was not intended.
But it took them three kriffing months to figure this out. By this time, everyone and their mother was acclimated to the boosted XP gain in groups (and thought, quite understandably, that it WAS intended to encourage more group play) and were infuriated by the change. The account server probably got close to meltdown with cancellations, which caused SOE to abruptly backtrack, and they never got the reduction in group XP to stick until they did everything else in the NGE.
In retrospect, they should have been paying attention to their customers in August of 2005 when this happened. It foreshadowed the playerbase reaction to the NGE.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
But...
... my point here is, what do they think the mistake was? This is not just an argument of semantics. If they don't even really understand what they're apologizing for, they're likely to just turn around and do it again... and again. After all look at the repeated behavior of SOE over the years with this game and the repeated underhanded, shady, dishonest dealings they have engaged in -- not just the NGE. That was only the most obvious and inexcusable example of it. They keep saying, each time they do these things, that, oops, they screwed up, and they will work to change. But they never do, and I'm quite convinced at this point that it's because of one of two things. Either they (a) honestly and truly do not understand what it is they are even apologizing for, or (b) they aren't really sincere and are just mollifying us. Maybe it's a little of both.
Either way, if they don't come clean in their apology not only by saying they are sorry but (as in my example) making it quite clear that they know what they are sorry for, then we will just have repeat after repeat of the same thing. After all, we have had repeat after repeat of the same behavior for years from them, usually within days of their "admission of culpability" type posts. Again, if they don't even know what it is they need to apologize for, saying "We're sorry" is just words.
As to them groveling, perhaps I came across that way but this is not my purpose -- to see them grovel. No, it's not about groveling and it's not about revenge. It's about the fact that when you really screw up, if you are going to try to earn back trust, you have to demonstrate clearly that you know what you did that was wrong, so that the offended party knows it at least might not happen again.
When I was a kid and got caught at something and issued an insincere apology my mother would often ask, "Are you really sorry you did it, or just sorry you got caught?" (or got punished). Implicit in her question is that there is a difference. If you're just sorry you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, the next time it's not being watched, you'll try for another cookie. But if you really are sorry you tried to grab a cookie that wasn't yours (to use a silly example) then even months later when nobody is there to watch you, you won't try to steal one.
So... this is not about SOE groveling or being made to look foolish. (They've already made themselves look far more foolish than any of us ever could dream of doing.) This is about them owning up... about them demonstrating in no uncertain terms that they know exactly what it is that they did wrong, so that we can be reasonably sure they won't do it again. Otherwise, if it's just, "We're sorry we lost subscribers" rather than "We're sorry for the bad things we did," then they are liable to turn around and do them again the second they have us back.
C
Oh yeah, it's REALLY swinging up... LoL.
You guys crack me up <mod edit>
But...
... my point here is, what do they think the mistake was? This is not just an argument of semantics. If they don't even really understand what they're apologizing for, they're likely to just turn around and do it again... and again. After all look at the repeated behavior of SOE over the years with this game and the repeated underhanded, shady, dishonest dealings they have engaged in -- not just the NGE. That was only the most obvious and inexcusable example of it. They keep saying, each time they do these things, that, oops, they screwed up, and they will work to change. But they never do, and I'm quite convinced at this point that it's because of one of two things. Either they (a) honestly and truly do not understand what it is they are even apologizing for, or (b) they aren't really sincere and are just mollifying us. Maybe it's a little of both.
Either way, if they don't come clean in their apology not only by saying they are sorry but (as in my example) making it quite clear that they know what they are sorry for, then we will just have repeat after repeat of the same thing. After all, we have had repeat after repeat of the same behavior for years from them, usually within days of their "admission of culpability" type posts. Again, if they don't even know what it is they need to apologize for, saying "We're sorry" is just words.
As to them groveling, perhaps I came across that way but this is not my purpose -- to see them grovel. No, it's not about groveling and it's not about revenge. It's about the fact that when you really screw up, if you are going to try to earn back trust, you have to demonstrate clearly that you know what you did that was wrong, so that the offended party knows it at least might not happen again.
When I was a kid and got caught at something and issued an insincere apology my mother would often ask, "Are you really sorry you did it, or just sorry you got caught?" (or got punished). Implicit in her question is that there is a difference. If you're just sorry you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, the next time it's not being watched, you'll try for another cookie. But if you really are sorry you tried to grab a cookie that wasn't yours (to use a silly example) then even months later when nobody is there to watch you, you won't try to steal one.
So... this is not about SOE groveling or being made to look foolish. (They've already made themselves look far more foolish than any of us ever could dream of doing.) This is about them owning up... about them demonstrating in no uncertain terms that they know exactly what it is that they did wrong, so that we can be reasonably sure they won't do it again. Otherwise, if it's just, "We're sorry we lost subscribers" rather than "We're sorry for the bad things we did," then they are liable to turn around and do them again the second they have us back.
C
Based on what Smedley has said in public, they so far are admitting that making radical design alterings to a game is a mistake. One could say implicitly with the refund they thoguht the bait and switch was a mistake, but they need to be a bit more explicit. So far they admit that making massive changes in the pursuit of better numbers is a mistake. (At least Smedley admitted such was a mistake when he promised those at Vangaurd he would not make such sweeping changes like the NGE.) If one can get this said formally and not just an off the cuff forum post, I think it's a step in the right direction. (As I said in my original post, I don't have much faith in that, so this remains in theory only.)
Again, I rarely post here, but I think I have a thought or two that is meaningful to this discussion.
I think Sony needs to do several things in order to re-establish itself with the vet population.
The idea of "rolled back servers". I agree this would be the best solution, but it has two hurdles that I can see. First is finacial. Will it gain enough subs back to justify the cost of such an endevor? How can they get some cold hard numbers to take to the finacial section? Second is programming. Fisrt step in that is to free up a server (or get a brand new one. I think clearing one out is cheeper, but I am not a MMO scripter) That means they need to overcome how to shift complete playerbase of data from one server to another. And I bet you they never thought of it originally so they have to completely code from scratch and figure out a way to handle any glitches that happens along the way. Once they have a clean server, they need to figure out a way to have two versions of the game exist simaltaniously, both in their server databases, but also on a player's computers. Again, I bet you there's no coding in place to help that from the beginning.
Now all of this is alot of time, effort and money, just on a hunch (And we have seen how those work out for them in the past) that they might get enough subs to finacially justify this. At this point they have the tools figure out if it is finacially viable.
Next is how to present it without hamstringing the NGE (which is their currect pay base) What I would propose is a "beta lottery" to test out the feasability of a rolled back server (note that I have suggested they have the tools to follow through on it before doing this step) and look at the numbers. Have a slot on the registration to have your old disk code to be put in so they can see how many non-paying players would be interrested in re-subbing. If the number of non-paying players that sign up is greater than the current NGE player base, then the conclusion is simple, that it is the way to go finacially.
Now comes the most complicated part. As players, you know that the old player data maybe unrecoverable from the old code. Are you all, as a player base, able to accept you may have to start over on this type of server? The complications of trying to recover old account data from a previous generation maybe beyond they ability, simply because no one thought of the possibility of needing to go back and having saved that data for that purpose.
The last thing they would need to do is to hire someone, as both a spokesman, as wel as someone with a voice within the SOE management, to protect/guide this project that has the project as his/her first priority instead of the obvious politics/pressures that is behind the sceens at SOE. That is in a position to say NO to ideas that can and would alienate this fragile fan base. That has taking care of the game and player base as his first priority.
These are my thoughts on how to finally solve this, in a method that would hopefully restore the basic level of confidence from both sides to make a project like this work.
I hope this inspires some thought. Thank you for your time.
The main reason I would not re-sub is because after what they have done, I don't trust SOE. I don't trust that they won't just screw up the game again if they start classic servers. I don't trust that they will support classic servers properly. I have seen them, repeatedly, in the past, purposely not support something so that players won't do it, and then claim "lack of player interest" as the reason they didn't support it. They did this during the pre-CU game with, for example, Rangers, BEs, Dancers, Image Designers, and Musicians, at least (possibly more). Every time Entertainers asked for anything -- be it bug fixes, improved content, anything at all -- our correspondent would tell us that we were just "not a priority" because there were "so few of us." I finally ended up making a long post entitled "Players do what you reward them to do" in which I debunked the whole idea that they were ignoring us because "nobody played Entertainers." The truth was, instead, that after months and months of lack of support from the devs, who did zero for Entertainers over long stretches of time, there was nobody left to play Entertainers. SOE thus created a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I am not convinced that they would not just do the same thing over again. I would worry that they wouldn't want a pre-CU to succeed. It would prove them to have been wrong for all this time. It would prove how stupid they were. It would prove how much money they'd thrown away by having the NGE, and only the NGE, for SWG. It would prove in objective, quantifiable ways, just how stupid they are.
Based on their past behavior, on their willingness to apparently happily throw millions of dollars away just to avoid being proven wrong, I can't see the ego-maniacs at SOE properly supporting pre-CU. I could see them opening a couple of pre-pub 9 servers, still riddled with the pre-9 bugs, and then NOT fixing those bugs, and leaving the game a partially-completed mess. Players would come back, thrilled to have their old game back again, and then notice all over again, all the problems that existed pre-CU (it was not a flawless game, just a much better game than NGE). And SOE would not fix those problems, so after a couple of months, people, having had their SWG fix but not wanting to play a game that is still very buggy and has no CSR support, would slowly fade away. And just like with "unpopular" classes like Ranger and Entertainer, SOE will say, "See? We told you nobody wanted to play this."
I don't trust them to put forth an honest effort to make this work, in other words. Instead, what I would expect them to do is put forth just enough effort that it looks like they tried, say, "We didn't get enough people to support it," and pull the plug, hoping that this, finally, would mend some fences with the MMO community. All the editorials would say, "SOE tried hard to give its customers what they wanted," etc, etc. They would do this to fix their name. Only for as long as it was needed to fix their name. Then, they'd pull the plug.
You see, their behavior has made it so we can't trust them. I do not trust them to bring back pre-CU servers and support them to the degree that would be necessary to have a viable player base. They have shown time and again that they'd rather be right, than make a profit. Sounds crazy for a company in business to make money but look at the record. NGE destroyed the whole player base. If they'd wanted us back and wanted our money they'd have put up a couple of classic servers within weeks or months... before the damage was permanent. They didn't do that because they apparently would rather lose money than admit they were wrong. I can't see any other way to explain it. Oh yes, now, putting up classic SWG would be too hard/expensive. But weeks after the NGE was live? No... it would have been possible... but they didn't want to admit they were wrong.
Now, if we put the trust issue aside, I would not have a problem with them starting on a "clean" server. In fact I would recommend it. If I could trust them to run the game long term, support it long term, and let us play in the ultimate sandbox, I would want a clean server to start with. I don't need all my old crap... just a nice clean server, and hopefully a group of my old guildies who loved and still miss the great game that was.
C
It seems like many of the vets would never re-subscribe as they don't "trust" SOE anymore.
Which brings back the question, why in the world should SOE even bother to try and win back the vets when they have that attitude? Better for SOE to capture new players with the NGE, as they're doing now.
Back to playing my favorite game!
PS......look at the number of servers that are "heavy"!!
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
PS..... SOE changed the criteria for the number of players that defines a "heavy" server years ago. A post-NGE "heavy" server doesn't hold a candle to a pre-CU "light" server. Have fun in your ghost town.
I hear this argument by the NGE-haters a lot, yet I see no proof to back it up. Sounds to me like you are grasping at straws with your conspiracy theories.PS..... SOE changed the criteria for the number of players that defines a "heavy" server years ago. A post-NGE "heavy" server doesn't hold a candle to a pre-CU "light" server. Have fun in your ghost town.
I'd figure around 100K. If you roll it together with the CU, you're looking at around 150K-200K.
I left after the CU went live. Like many players, I went to WoW, and was bored within a year or so. I kept track of my SWG friends in WoW, and out of the two dozen or so that moved at the same time I did there's probably half a dozen still playing WoW.
Most of us would have gone back to a post-CU SWG. Going back to a post-NGE SWG? No thanks.
Not only was it a game-breaking move, but the way it was sprung on the consumer base was simply wrong. At least the CU was heavily tested and bore some semblance of what the player base wanted.
I'm not full of rage, but I am a consumer that votes with my wallet. Couple SOE's actions with Sony's anti-consumer actions as a whole (rootkits, proprietary formats, heavy-handed DRM, etc) and I've gone from being a Sony fan to being someone who wouldn't touch a Sony product with a ten foot pole. Time to buy a plasma to replace my Sony CRT? Bought a Panasonic. Time to replace the Sony digital camera? Bought a Canon. Goes on and on throughout the consumer electronics in my home. If only I could get my wife to swear off Sony recording artists.
Log on to one of these "heavy" servers. Find the most heavily-trafficed spot in the game. Take a time-stamped screenshot. Post it here.
I'll check back later.
I'd figure around 100K. If you roll it together with the CU, you're looking at around 150K-200K.
I left after the CU went live. Like many players, I went to WoW, and was bored within a year or so. I kept track of my SWG friends in WoW, and out of the two dozen or so that moved at the same time I did there's probably half a dozen still playing WoW.
Most of us would have gone back to a post-CU SWG. Going back to a post-NGE SWG? No thanks.
Not only was it a game-breaking move, but the way it was sprung on the consumer base was simply wrong. At least the CU was heavily tested and bore some semblance of what the player base wanted.
I'm not full of rage, but I am a consumer that votes with my wallet. Couple SOE's actions with Sony's anti-consumer actions as a whole (rootkits, proprietary formats, heavy-handed DRM, etc) and I've gone from being a Sony fan to being someone who wouldn't touch a Sony product with a ten foot pole. Time to buy a plasma to replace my Sony CRT? Bought a Panasonic. Time to replace the Sony digital camera? Bought a Canon. Goes on and on throughout the consumer electronics in my home. If only I could get my wife to swear off Sony recording artists.
What do you think the total population of the game was at its peak?-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Log on to one of these "heavy" servers. Find the most heavily-trafficed spot in the game. Take a time-stamped screenshot. Post it here.
I'll check back later.
Right... yeah, a single place in the game is an accurate measure of the population.I'll think I'll educate you now on the continuity principle. Considering that at any point in time, a single player can only view other players that are around them. And, since all players are usually in continuous motion, if the original player went to another spot, that player may or may not view other players that were in the same position previously. Therefore, it is difficult to actually gague the game's true population. Not to mention that NGE has changed a lot of the player dynamics that were there in Pre-CU. These changes include:
- 2 or 3 characters per server. Therefore, unlike Pre-CU, players have multiple characters to play and level up. Therefore, they are not necessarily congregating at the social areas that you want to take a sample from. This is especially true of combat classes that follow the legacy quest.
- No more doctor bufflines. That means there will be a reduced amount of people per area, unlike Pre-CU. Therefore, a presence of less players around in social areas (like Coronet was in Pre-CU).
- A lot of veterans were maxed out on their characters during pre-CU. Therefore, they had nothing to do except socialize. However, with multiple characters per server, and people starting over, they are continuing with the development of their chracters. Thus, they will not necessarily be hanging out in social areas.
So, I say again, where is your proof for your claim. Until you give me proof, all your claim will be considered is a conspiracy theory. So, you better begin collecting your aluminum for your hat then.SOE annouced it when SWG hit 300K subs. They never annouced sub numbers again - pretty easy to figure out that 300K was the peak for SWG. It gets a little tricky when you try to factor in the number of unique subscribers, since multiple accounts were common among the hardcore playerbase.
I hear this argument by the NGE-haters a lot, yet I see no proof to back it up. Sounds to me like you are grasping at straws with your conspiracy theories. The "proof" you demand is subscription numbers from SOE, which they will never give. Back in May 2005, my main server Corbantis went from being "Light" to "Medium" or "Heavy" literally overnight with a hot-fix. There was NO visible change in the number of people playing.PS..... SOE changed the criteria for the number of players that defines a "heavy" server years ago. A post-NGE "heavy" server doesn't hold a candle to a pre-CU "light" server. Have fun in your ghost town.
I stopped reading your post around there. Educate me? LOL.
It's not about getting a total count for the population from one spot, it's about recoginizing that in any social game there are going to be hotspots. Pre-CU had the Dantooing mining outpost, for example. It wasn't the only one, but if the server was busy you could be the MO was busy.
You're telling me that you can't log onto one of these "heavy" servers (which in your opinion are just as "heavy" as pre-CU standards) and find a single place where there are a large number of people, large enough where you won't get laughed off of the forums by people who remember the pre-CU mining outpost on a "light" server?
You're telling me that somehow SOE has created a social game which, if I'm to believe the hype on Chapter 6, encourages grouping
yet there are no social hotspots in the game? And you're telling me I'm the one coming up with conspiracy theories?
Thank you for the constructive feedback so far, I appriciate it.
Valid points have been made so far so I will address those that I have ideas on.
Trust. How would past players feel if Lucas Arts established direct control over the new "historic" servers and leave the NGE in Sony's hands? They may have the same tech support, but establish control over fixes and other aspects as they do over creative control of the Star Wars licence?
This does two things, acknowladgement to the alienated player base (and let's be honest, a great deal are Star Wars fans initially anyways) that mistakes were made, removes the trust issue out of the picture in order to provide the best chance the endevor would be profitable.
I have to agree that Sony does have alot of issues over "control" of it's buying base and their products, and has more interrest in maintaining that sometimes over taking care of the customer.
Second topic that was brought up (and totally off topic mind you) is the server levels once again. There maybe those that are labeled heavy, but without actual counts being established both before and after the changed, there is no way to certify what the terms mean, either before or after. And with the way things have been handled, we have no way to guarentee that the level before that is tracked as "heavy" is the same amount as now. Without Sony actually listing subscriber details to the public, and the fact that IF subscriber base was hiugher now than before they would say so tells me that the numbers have probably changed. Seeing that it is also common practice on other games to do so.
Thank you again for your time
I suspect that the change in structure decay (going from run out of maint and poof a week or so later to "condemned") was to preserve structures in the world to create a "Potemkin Village" effect of a populated world to the casual observer.
I just would not put such a deliberate decepiton past these guys.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi