SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
Lettng people be Jedi was a mistake because of the time period it was meant to be set in. If there were jedi around they should have been NPC kill or protect quests.... Tbh lots of things ruined this game, I dont know about anyone else but i got a very bad frame rate on this game despite having a really good pc at the time and a fast internet connection. Rushed.. yes.... a disaster from the moment the design team sat in a room and opened their mouths, no doubt in my mind. I payed $100 for this game because when it came out the collectors Edition was all you could get... this is of course including fast international delivery. I cried for week... oh how i cried rocking back and forth in my dark room promising to build a carbomb to plant outside SOE's headquarters. The game just didnt have it from day one guys lets face it.
SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
Ah and here we have well thought out truth. My thoughts exactly. The blue is my favorite and rings the most true.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I'll take this one. Easy, it WAS LA's fault for this title. IT was obvious they were pushing very hard to finish it for the holidays. I was there as the masses complained about it (heck i added my two cents as well). We complained about the incomplete ending. We complained even more when a brilliant person found and showed us where to find the hidden files of well made (masterpiece imo) end game content that was not put into the game.
But this fiasco is a lot different. Sure LA get some of the blame. But in the end... SoE not only had a nice wrap on doing sweeping changes to games all in the name of money, but they had full reign to do as they pleased with the game as long as LA approved for the most part. Making the most of the blame center towards SoE.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
My memory isn't what it used to be but I think LA only got criticized after an Obsidian developer openly called out LA during an interview about all the problems with KOTOR 2. I'm not saying that SOE is innocent, far from it, but I don't think LA is blameless either.
LA seems to have a following of mindless fanbois defending them at the slightest hint of criticism - and I've never understood why. If you don't believe me, go to the Star Wars forums where fans will swear up and down that KOTOR 2 is one of the greatest games made - EVER! (that is not an exaggeration.)
If a quarter of the things Obsidian said about LA is true, there's no way I'll accept they had a minimal role in all the changes we see now in Galaxies.
SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
My memory isn't what it used to be but I think LA only got criticized after an Obsidian developer openly called out LA during an interview about all the problems with KOTOR 2. I'm not saying that SOE is innocent, far from it, but I don't think LA is blameless either.
LA seems to have a following of mindless fanbois defending them at the slightest hint of criticism - and I've never understood why. If you don't believe me, go to the Star Wars forums where fans will swear up and down that KOTOR 2 is one of the greatest games made - EVER! (that is not an exaggeration.)
If a quarter of the things Obsidian said about LA is true, there's no way I'll accept they had a minimal role in all the changes we see now in Galaxies.
Well i dont think la is blameless either. But everyone acts as if the blame ratio SoE/LA is 1/10 when in fact it should be the other way around due to the facts. True that LA is the most to blame for KOTOR 2 but SWG was pretty much SoE's puppy. Besides, its already a fact that SoE has a wrap on sweeping changes, no need to say more.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Yep, the OP pretty much hit the nail on the head. That's why Smed still has a job. If there was something SOE "could have done" I'm pretty sure they would have done it. And if it were that case, and they didn't, Smed would have been long gone by now.
Think about it. I mean really think about that objectively.
I think if us vets, in very large numbers, were to put presure on LA, we'd prolly see a lot of things change for the better.
SOE is taking the blame, because they are at fault. Lucas Arts gets to share in that blame also. Neither company is blame free in this mess. My guess is they should both get the shaft for this steaming pile of crap.
I will skip giving dictionary definitions of what companies are and what a franchise is. Instead I will use specifics that SOE has done in the past instead of trying to make SOE fit some text book definitition to make a point.
SOE:
Launched SWG way to early.
Launched EQ and EQ2 way to early.
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to SWG
Rushed unfinished buggy expansions to EQ, and EQ2 to the point they had boycotts in EQ and had to make public statements that they would slow down production in EQ2.
Pushed one combat revamp and one NGE revamp on SWG
Pushed a combat revamp on The Matrix Online and EQ2
What happened in SWG wasn't something new to SOE, it is their basic formula for pushing out MMO's. Jeff Freeman admitted in his blog that he came up with the concept for the first person shooter style game play. Yes SOE has to answer to lucas arts and beg for approval. In the end it is the SOE developers creating the game, marketing the game, handling customer service. So unless you contend that lucas arts is making SOE repeat the same mistakes in all their titles, then you have to acknowledge that this is how SOE does things. Remember, they were the undisputed MMO kings before blizzard entered the market.
Like I have pointed out before, people credit bioware for the success of KOTOR I and not lucas arts. Why should lucas arts get the blame for SWG when SOE is doing the exact same thing the bioware was contracted to do. (EDIT: by that I mean performing the same set of tasks, not achieving the same level of success)
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
My memory isn't what it used to be but I think LA only got criticized after an Obsidian developer openly called out LA during an interview about all the problems with KOTOR 2. I'm not saying that SOE is innocent, far from it, but I don't think LA is blameless either.
LA seems to have a following of mindless fanbois defending them at the slightest hint of criticism - and I've never understood why. If you don't believe me, go to the Star Wars forums where fans will swear up and down that KOTOR 2 is one of the greatest games made - EVER! (that is not an exaggeration.)
If a quarter of the things Obsidian said about LA is true, there's no way I'll accept they had a minimal role in all the changes we see now in Galaxies.
Had KOTOR2 been finished, it very well could've been one of the best games ever. Especially once the other plot lines started to get filled out, and we saw what didn't make the final cut. I still think the story of Darth Traya was one of the most original and intuitive characters created in the SW universe. Yet sadly there was so much unfinished about the game.
SWG also had another cross to bear, which was the Jedi cross. The original design, from everything I have read, of SWG, had no player Jedi, but SOMEONE insisted that they be put in. One of the obivous clues that they were not integral to the original design as player controllable is that lightsabers originally had kinetic damage; they were redressed Nyax swords or something. Later, in the pub9 - CU period, they had their own type of damage that nearly everything and everyone was vulnerable to, in order to make Jedi as powerful as they needed to be to be true to what you saw on the screen in Ep I, which is by George Lucas' own words, for all practical purposes, invincible.
You can't have invincible players in an MMO. It just does not work.
But that's if you're a game designer.
If you're in marketing, you care for none of these distinctions. After all, if you've got lightsabers, you've got product moving.
So let's move that product!
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
...Later, in the pub9 - CU period, they had their own type of damage that nearly everything and everyone was vulnerable to, in order to make Jedi as powerful as they needed to be to be true to what you saw on the screen in Ep I, which is by George Lucas' own words, for all practical purposes, invincible...
Not to digress too much, but the pre-CU lightsaber damage type was a concession made for the inability of Jedi to wear armor, something the community as a whole wanted to see.
Jedi weren't godlike in PvE or PvP. When it came time for my Knight Trails and I had to kill Rebel Rear Admirals on the Corvette, a Nightsister elder, and a giant canyon krayt I was standing behind a non-Jedi in composite armor. When it came time to PvP, I brought out my combat medic / carbineer with spider venom-enhanced area mind poison and krayt-enhanced power handler / Imperial-stocked laser carbine.
The Jedi cross was really more related to a constantly moving target of player expectations than it was to pre-CU balance. I remember the beta forums, where players agreed that Jedi could be in the game, but had to walk a difficult path. Everyone was OK with godlike Jedi as long as permadeath was in place. Then players started to actually feel the sting of permadeath, and enough voiced there willingness to sacrifice some power for a less stiff death penalty. So it was skill loss. That was too much. So it became XP debt. People still complained. Eventually it runs its course and you get Jedi as a starter profession in the NGE.
I squarely pin the blame for the Jedi problems on the community as a whole. That's saying a lot, because I fault SOE for just about everything else (with LucasArts lumped in as well). There's no major MMORPG publisher that could have stood up to the constantly changing expectations of the community regarding an iconic alpha class. CCP and their "this is our vision of the game - take it or leave it" attitude may have stood a chance, but no one else comes to mind.
I wish I had enough knowledge of lucas arts games to answer your question. Truth be told I don't buy lucas arts games anymore because the ones I picked up were pretty bad. KOTOR II might be great or suck, i don't know. It is a different software house so maybe thats the way it is.
Lego stars wars which my wife loves, battelfront(s), KOTOR and some of the older tie fighter games all had high marks. The point is there are plenty of different companies that did well under lucas arts direction. Some don't and it is fairly accepted they are a pain in the ass to work for.
All that aside, it doesn't matter. SWG was the way it was because of SOE. Almost every aspect that happened in SWG are mirrored to a fairly common degree in other SOE titles, because that is how they made their games prior to blizzard giving them a black eye.
People still debate crap that happened thousands of years ago.. and um stuff that no one knows if it even happened or is happening. So talking about this game which is a "few" years old isn't really a dead horse issue. Its human nature.
Someone says they rushed EQ1 out the door? Um before WoW.. EQ1 was still the most successful North American market MMO.
SWG.. ya it was launched it pretty much the condition most MMO's are launched.. early and unfinished...
EQ2.. dunno that it was so much released early... it had drastic (and stupid) changes within the last couple months of beta.. it was actually better in beta than the launched version (changes for the loss).
The only two MMO's that I've played (and I've played most all of them since UO) that launched somewhat smooth were:
DAoC and LOTRO (by smooth I mean based on lack of server crashes.. tho both were missing major parts of content).
So its hard to single out SOE based on how a game launched by MMO standards.
The biggest thing that always made me chuckle was those that lumped it all on SOE. How most of Lucas Arts including George Lucas didn't even know what SWG was... Yet in the development video with Raph, Rick Vogel etc... they clearly state that various things had to be signed off on and approved by George Lucas himself.
Doesn't really matter who was responsible for the NGE imho...
It would be a far greater thing to know who decided to stay with it and not regain some paying player base. Companies have reversed patches/changes... because of the negative impact on a game. Yet someone made the decision to stick with this...
*I* don't care to debate if pre-cu had issues etc... I just can't see how anyone working at a corporate level can decide to stick with something that cost you hundreds of thousands of paying subscribers...
Yep, the OP pretty much hit the nail on the head. That's why Smed still has a job. If there was something SOE "could have done" I'm pretty sure they would have done it. And if it were that case, and they didn't, Smed would have been long gone by now. Think about it. I mean really think about that objectively. I think if us vets, in very large numbers, were to put presure on LA, we'd prolly see a lot of things change for the better.
Yep is short that was exactly the point.
In business mistakes like that are not forgiven.
Sometimes I think people have the idea that Smedley is like the guy next door who just happen to run a small developement firm in its garage and make as he please with his software, annoying on purpose all the SWG Veteran because it can.
Smedley is CEO of a multi-million corporation, he is not the owner, he is the manager.
The shareholders are the boss, and if Smedley does anything that can geopardise the renues of the company, the Shareholders will kick his ass.
Lol I can imagine the meetings between Smedley and the Board
Board: Hi Smed, how SWG is doing?
Smed: Very well, we lost a couple of million dollars but at least all the Veterans are foaming from their mouth.
Board: Can we at least open few Classic servers?
Smed: Are you jocking? I would rather slit my veins before giving in to those bastards.......never!
Board: Eheh, you really hate them eh? Rather costly entertainment, but it's worth every single million lost..........
Do you think that is a realistic scenario in a Board of Directors? Honestly..........
From personal experience, I can tell you that's very far from the truth.
If you lose so much money, the only thing you need to bring in the boardroom with you is a couple of fresh nappies, because you will be shitting yourself several times before you ll be allowed to get out, and it's better you have a very reasonable explanation if you want to be allowed in ever again.
Yep, the OP pretty much hit the nail on the head. That's why Smed still has a job. If there was something SOE "could have done" I'm pretty sure they would have done it. And if it were that case, and they didn't, Smed would have been long gone by now. Think about it. I mean really think about that objectively. I think if us vets, in very large numbers, were to put presure on LA, we'd prolly see a lot of things change for the better.
Yep is short that was exactly the point.
In business mistakes like that are not forgiven.
Sometimes I think people have the idea that Smedley is like the guy next door who just happen to run a small developement firm in its garage and make as he please with his software, annoying on purpose all the SWG Veteran because it can.
Smedley is CEO of a multi-million corporation, he is not the owner, he is the manager.
The shareholders are the boss, and if Smedley does anything that can geopardise the renues of the company, the Shareholders will kick his ass.
Lol I can imagine the meetings between Smedley and the Board
Board: Hi Smed, how SWG is doing?
Smed: Very well, we lost a couple of million dollars but at least all the Veterans are foaming from their mouth.
Board: Can we at least open few Classic servers?
Smed: Are you jocking? I would rather slit my veins before giving in to those bastards.......never!
Board: Eheh, you really hate them eh? Rather costly entertainment, but it's worth every single million lost..........
Do you think that is a realistic scenario in a Board of Directors? Honestly..........
From personal experience, I can tell you that's very far from the truth.
If you lose so much money, the only thing you need to bring in the boardroom with you is a couple of fresh nappies, because you will be shitting yourself several times before you ll be allowed to get out, and it's better you have a very reasonable explanation if you want to be allowed in ever again. Whoever John reports to probably doesn't micromanage him to this degree. He probably hits his numbers, and that's all they care about.
The one and only thing that makes me think that SOE had/has their hands tied in this mess, and there isn't too much that they can do about it, is the fact that Smedly still has a job. If this were something that SOE had some form of control over, he would have been fired or would have resigned by now. It is the only logical explaination.
For so long now, the majority of us have been blaming SOE for all this. We've concentrated our anger and our hate towards them. And there is absolutly 0 they can do about it. Heck, for all we know they probably secretly agree with us. If we had all taken that energy and focused it towards LA, I'm guessing things would be a lot different right now.
I'd be willing to launch such a campaign, but how much support would I really have and who really cares enough anymore anyway?
The one and only thing that makes me think that SOE had/has their hands tied in this mess, and there isn't too much that they can do about it, is the fact that Smedly still has a job. If this were something that SOE had some form of control over, he would have been fired or would have resigned by now. It is the only logical explaination. For so long now, the majority of us have been blaming SOE for all this. We've concentrated our anger and our hate towards them. And there is absolutly 0 they can do about it. Heck, for all we know they probably secretly agree with us. If we had all taken that energy and focused it towards LA, I'm guessing things would be a lot different right now. I'd be willing to launch such a campaign, but how much support would I really have and who really cares enough anymore anyway?
Why does Smedley still have a job? because Smedley had success with EQ2, and brokered the acquisition of a DC comics MMO. He also got his hands into the publishing revenues at Vangaurd (people buy for release, Smedley makes a huge profit with little liability), then once the game tanks, they take over the game, promise changes, and people return, giving more money.
Then there's the genius marketing idea of the Stationpass. (and I mean that literally, it was very smooth marketing.) All those shrewd moves can forgive the massive failure that was the NGE. In the end, SOE is still a profitable corporation.
People might view him shady, but he's a smart shady individual who happens to be very successful. Besides, he's got what a lot of executives don't, media prowess. he knows how to play people's chords and strings when he speaks.
i lost interest in 10 seconds. its common sense what a business is. to make money thats what a business is we all know you dont need to tell us. also we are people who play games for fun and enjoyment not to make money(unless you have a job in doing that with games but im talkin in general). we dont care the reason for doing stuff all we care about is if its fun or not.
if you want you can also blame George Lucas for this. you can blame anyone for anything but who did it last is the one whos problem it is(unless in certain curcumstances but im not getting into that). so who owns the game right now? soe thats who. so whos problem is this game? soe thats who.
The one and only thing that makes me think that SOE had/has their hands tied in this mess, and there isn't too much that they can do about it, is the fact that Smedly still has a job. If this were something that SOE had some form of control over, he would have been fired or would have resigned by now. It is the only logical explaination. For so long now, the majority of us have been blaming SOE for all this. We've concentrated our anger and our hate towards them. And there is absolutly 0 they can do about it. Heck, for all we know they probably secretly agree with us. If we had all taken that energy and focused it towards LA, I'm guessing things would be a lot different right now. I'd be willing to launch such a campaign, but how much support would I really have and who really cares enough anymore anyway?
Why does Smedley still have a job? because Smedley had success with EQ2, and brokered the acquisition of a DC comics MMO. He also got his hands into the publishing revenues at Vangaurd (people buy for release, Smedley makes a huge profit with little liability), then once the game tanks, they take over the game, promise changes, and people return, giving more money.
Then there's the genius marketing idea of the Stationpass. (and I mean that literally, it was very smooth marketing.) All those shrewd moves can forgive the massive failure that was the NGE. In the end, SOE is still a profitable corporation.
People might view him shady, but he's a smart shady individual who happens to be very successful. Besides, he's got what a lot of executives don't, media prowess. he knows how to play people's chords and strings when he speaks.
SOE currently has fewer total subscribers, across all games, including the Station Pass, than they had with just EQ a few years ago. I'd wager John Smedley still has his job based on the 'big budget blockbuster' business model found in Hollywood. SOE, being part of Sony Pictures Entertainment, can afford to tank a few titles as long as they hit a homerun once in a while. As a company, SOE is still coasting on EQ's success. That provides job security for the SOE management team. Having several IP's, both their own and the three licenses, adds several Assets to the SOE Balance Sheet. I doubt SOE is currently losing money, but I'd bet there will be some restructuring done if the DCU game flops (which I think it will).
I also think you inadvertently added a "2" on the end of "EQ", since EQ2 hasn't even reached SWG's peak numbers yet. Additionally, I doubt that SOE will recover their investment on Vanguard. I think they will have to wait for Vanguard 2 to do so.
I have to say that im a bit confused on how much influence Lucas Arts had on the game development. My experience with how this works is that those who own a license "sell" it off to a company who then makes a game on that license so that both companies can make money on it. Most of the time the developers seem to have the most control as the license holder might not be overly interested in what happens with the game just as long as it pulls in the money.
Take WAR, gameworkshop arent the ones making the game they just sold the license to Mythic. They will ofcourse check on product from time to time.
So unless someone can come up with some proof that Lucas arts have been developing the game closely with SoE, I still blame SoE for what happend to the game.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes" Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
I have to say that im a bit confused on how much influence Lucas Arts had on the game development. My experience with how this works is that those who own a license "sell" it off to a company who then makes a game on that license so that both companies can make money on it. Most of the time the developers seem to have the most control as the license holder might not be overly interested in what happens with the game just as long as it pulls in the money. Take WAR, gameworkshop arent the ones making the game they just sold the license to Mythic. They will ofcourse check on product from time to time. So unless someone can come up with some proof that Lucas arts have been developing the game closely with SoE, I still blame SoE for what happend to the game.
According to several current and former SOE employees, the folks at SOE came up with the NGE and LucasArts approved it. That is how the LA/SOE relationship works, SOE comes up with ideas, submits them to LucasArts for approval, and then attempts to implement them if LA says yes.
The NGE itself spawned out of making a "Trial Island" like EQ2 has (the newbie space station). Another part of the development team worked on the craptastic combat changes, and yet another trashed the profession skill system for the class based system. While this was going on at SOE, they continued to have the rest of the dev team work on the Ranger revamp to help keep the NGE secret long enough to sell the ToOW expansion to people they knew were not going to be happy about the NGE. SOE lied to several of their own employees about the NGE in an attempt to rip off their customers.
Ah ok, so its the classic relationship. Devs make something sends it to the license holder who doent know squat about it who then aprove of it nonetheless.
So its really is mostly SoE's dev teams fault as they made the thing and were willing to lie to get it in, and it was Lucas arts fault for not being able to see the disaster on the horizon.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes" Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
I would agree that $OE and LA can both take blame for the cluster f*ck that is SWG. But it was $OE who planned, developed and implemented the NGE, not LA.
$oe spun some crap about how they would take millions of WOW players with this new system and LA went cha ching, do it.
I agree with this except I'd say it would be LA that would take that step. If SOE wanted to try a world of warcraft conversion of a game the obvious choice would have been EQ2. It was already closer. The fact that they tested it out on SWG instead makes me think LA played the bigger part. SOE had their pick of games to play with, I just find it odd that out of all the games they have they happen to choose the one that isn't theirs. I definately think LA had their hands in it, lets be honest LA doesn't have a stellar track record for releasing games. Yeah they have some great ones, but they have some really bad ones out there too.
I would agree that $OE and LA can both take blame for the cluster f*ck that is SWG. But it was $OE who planned, developed and implemented the NGE, not LA.
$oe spun some crap about how they would take millions of WOW players with this new system and LA went cha ching, do it.
I agree with this except I'd say it would be LA that would take that step. If SOE wanted to try a world of warcraft conversion of a game the obvious choice would have been EQ2. It was already closer. The fact that they tested it out on SWG instead makes me think LA played the bigger part. SOE had their pick of games to play with, I just find it odd that out of all the games they have they happen to choose the one that isn't theirs. I definately think LA had their hands in it, lets be honest LA doesn't have a stellar track record for releasing games. Yeah they have some great ones, but they have some really bad ones out there too.
EQ2 was next on the revamp list. The abysmal failure of the NGE led SOE to making thechanges to EQ2 much more slowly, and much more thought out. EQ2 was made much less 'complex' and more solo friendly in an attempt to appeal more to those 'millions of players who are bored of WoW and want something more complex to play' who have yet to actually prove they even exist, yet SOE's current business model is to continue to cater to them.
The entire reason SOE was willing to use SWG as the guinea pig is they thought the "Star Wars" name would prevent the game from losing very many subscribers. The number of people willing to pay a monthly fee for a horrible game set in the Star Wars universe is much smaller than SOE had originally estimated.
I don't doubt that the pitch, by SOE to LucasArts for the NGE, included the phrase "like World of Warcraft" several times. LucasArts deserves some share of the blame for the NGE, but it was SOE who came up with it and sold LucasArts on it. That has been confirmed by several current and former SOE employees. LucasArts didn't tell SOE to revamp the game, SOE came up with the idea and the folks at LucasArts said "Yes".
Comments
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
Lettng people be Jedi was a mistake because of the time period it was meant to be set in. If there were jedi around they should have been NPC kill or protect quests.... Tbh lots of things ruined this game, I dont know about anyone else but i got a very bad frame rate on this game despite having a really good pc at the time and a fast internet connection. Rushed.. yes.... a disaster from the moment the design team sat in a room and opened their mouths, no doubt in my mind. I payed $100 for this game because when it came out the collectors Edition was all you could get... this is of course including fast international delivery. I cried for week... oh how i cried rocking back and forth in my dark room promising to build a carbomb to plant outside SOE's headquarters. The game just didnt have it from day one guys lets face it.
BTW I saved the carbomb for Turbine.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I'll take this one. Easy, it WAS LA's fault for this title. IT was obvious they were pushing very hard to finish it for the holidays. I was there as the masses complained about it (heck i added my two cents as well). We complained about the incomplete ending. We complained even more when a brilliant person found and showed us where to find the hidden files of well made (masterpiece imo) end game content that was not put into the game.
But this fiasco is a lot different. Sure LA get some of the blame. But in the end... SoE not only had a nice wrap on doing sweeping changes to games all in the name of money, but they had full reign to do as they pleased with the game as long as LA approved for the most part. Making the most of the blame center towards SoE.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
My memory isn't what it used to be but I think LA only got criticized after an Obsidian developer openly called out LA during an interview about all the problems with KOTOR 2. I'm not saying that SOE is innocent, far from it, but I don't think LA is blameless either.
LA seems to have a following of mindless fanbois defending them at the slightest hint of criticism - and I've never understood why. If you don't believe me, go to the Star Wars forums where fans will swear up and down that KOTOR 2 is one of the greatest games made - EVER! (that is not an exaggeration.)
If a quarter of the things Obsidian said about LA is true, there's no way I'll accept they had a minimal role in all the changes we see now in Galaxies.
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
My memory isn't what it used to be but I think LA only got criticized after an Obsidian developer openly called out LA during an interview about all the problems with KOTOR 2. I'm not saying that SOE is innocent, far from it, but I don't think LA is blameless either.
LA seems to have a following of mindless fanbois defending them at the slightest hint of criticism - and I've never understood why. If you don't believe me, go to the Star Wars forums where fans will swear up and down that KOTOR 2 is one of the greatest games made - EVER! (that is not an exaggeration.)
If a quarter of the things Obsidian said about LA is true, there's no way I'll accept they had a minimal role in all the changes we see now in Galaxies.
Well i dont think la is blameless either. But everyone acts as if the blame ratio SoE/LA is 1/10 when in fact it should be the other way around due to the facts. True that LA is the most to blame for KOTOR 2 but SWG was pretty much SoE's puppy. Besides, its already a fact that SoE has a wrap on sweeping changes, no need to say more.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Yep, the OP pretty much hit the nail on the head. That's why Smed still has a job. If there was something SOE "could have done" I'm pretty sure they would have done it. And if it were that case, and they didn't, Smed would have been long gone by now.
Think about it. I mean really think about that objectively.
I think if us vets, in very large numbers, were to put presure on LA, we'd prolly see a lot of things change for the better.
SWG? Pull the plug already!
100% agree with your post. Good way of looking at it also, the part I have highlighted in red.
$oe continue their usual dodgy practises that you point out in your post yet all of a sudden a few folk are trying to shift blame LA's way.
How do you explain KOTOR 2?
I think LA did largely get blamed for all the stuff that was wrong with KOTOR 2. Not the dev team that actually coded it.
My memory isn't what it used to be but I think LA only got criticized after an Obsidian developer openly called out LA during an interview about all the problems with KOTOR 2. I'm not saying that SOE is innocent, far from it, but I don't think LA is blameless either.
LA seems to have a following of mindless fanbois defending them at the slightest hint of criticism - and I've never understood why. If you don't believe me, go to the Star Wars forums where fans will swear up and down that KOTOR 2 is one of the greatest games made - EVER! (that is not an exaggeration.)
If a quarter of the things Obsidian said about LA is true, there's no way I'll accept they had a minimal role in all the changes we see now in Galaxies.
Had KOTOR2 been finished, it very well could've been one of the best games ever. Especially once the other plot lines started to get filled out, and we saw what didn't make the final cut. I still think the story of Darth Traya was one of the most original and intuitive characters created in the SW universe. Yet sadly there was so much unfinished about the game.
KOTOR II had one of the same problems SWG did...
Released too soon.
SWG also had another cross to bear, which was the Jedi cross. The original design, from everything I have read, of SWG, had no player Jedi, but SOMEONE insisted that they be put in. One of the obivous clues that they were not integral to the original design as player controllable is that lightsabers originally had kinetic damage; they were redressed Nyax swords or something. Later, in the pub9 - CU period, they had their own type of damage that nearly everything and everyone was vulnerable to, in order to make Jedi as powerful as they needed to be to be true to what you saw on the screen in Ep I, which is by George Lucas' own words, for all practical purposes, invincible.
You can't have invincible players in an MMO. It just does not work.
But that's if you're a game designer.
If you're in marketing, you care for none of these distinctions. After all, if you've got lightsabers, you've got product moving.
So let's move that product!
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Not to digress too much, but the pre-CU lightsaber damage type was a concession made for the inability of Jedi to wear armor, something the community as a whole wanted to see.
Jedi weren't godlike in PvE or PvP. When it came time for my Knight Trails and I had to kill Rebel Rear Admirals on the Corvette, a Nightsister elder, and a giant canyon krayt I was standing behind a non-Jedi in composite armor. When it came time to PvP, I brought out my combat medic / carbineer with spider venom-enhanced area mind poison and krayt-enhanced power handler / Imperial-stocked laser carbine.
The Jedi cross was really more related to a constantly moving target of player expectations than it was to pre-CU balance. I remember the beta forums, where players agreed that Jedi could be in the game, but had to walk a difficult path. Everyone was OK with godlike Jedi as long as permadeath was in place. Then players started to actually feel the sting of permadeath, and enough voiced there willingness to sacrifice some power for a less stiff death penalty. So it was skill loss. That was too much. So it became XP debt. People still complained. Eventually it runs its course and you get Jedi as a starter profession in the NGE.
I squarely pin the blame for the Jedi problems on the community as a whole. That's saying a lot, because I fault SOE for just about everything else (with LucasArts lumped in as well). There's no major MMORPG publisher that could have stood up to the constantly changing expectations of the community regarding an iconic alpha class. CCP and their "this is our vision of the game - take it or leave it" attitude may have stood a chance, but no one else comes to mind.
Lego stars wars which my wife loves, battelfront(s), KOTOR and some of the older tie fighter games all had high marks. The point is there are plenty of different companies that did well under lucas arts direction. Some don't and it is fairly accepted they are a pain in the ass to work for.
All that aside, it doesn't matter. SWG was the way it was because of SOE. Almost every aspect that happened in SWG are mirrored to a fairly common degree in other SOE titles, because that is how they made their games prior to blizzard giving them a black eye.
If it looks like a duck, etc etc.
(generic responses to various post I saw)
Dead horse?
People still debate crap that happened thousands of years ago.. and um stuff that no one knows if it even happened or is happening. So talking about this game which is a "few" years old isn't really a dead horse issue. Its human nature.
Someone says they rushed EQ1 out the door? Um before WoW.. EQ1 was still the most successful North American market MMO.
SWG.. ya it was launched it pretty much the condition most MMO's are launched.. early and unfinished...
EQ2.. dunno that it was so much released early... it had drastic (and stupid) changes within the last couple months of beta.. it was actually better in beta than the launched version (changes for the loss).
The only two MMO's that I've played (and I've played most all of them since UO) that launched somewhat smooth were:
DAoC and LOTRO (by smooth I mean based on lack of server crashes.. tho both were missing major parts of content).
So its hard to single out SOE based on how a game launched by MMO standards.
The biggest thing that always made me chuckle was those that lumped it all on SOE. How most of Lucas Arts including George Lucas didn't even know what SWG was... Yet in the development video with Raph, Rick Vogel etc... they clearly state that various things had to be signed off on and approved by George Lucas himself.
Doesn't really matter who was responsible for the NGE imho...
It would be a far greater thing to know who decided to stay with it and not regain some paying player base. Companies have reversed patches/changes... because of the negative impact on a game. Yet someone made the decision to stick with this...
*I* don't care to debate if pre-cu had issues etc... I just can't see how anyone working at a corporate level can decide to stick with something that cost you hundreds of thousands of paying subscribers...
In business mistakes like that are not forgiven.
Sometimes I think people have the idea that Smedley is like the guy next door who just happen to run a small developement firm in its garage and make as he please with his software, annoying on purpose all the SWG Veteran because it can.
Smedley is CEO of a multi-million corporation, he is not the owner, he is the manager.
The shareholders are the boss, and if Smedley does anything that can geopardise the renues of the company, the Shareholders will kick his ass.
Lol I can imagine the meetings between Smedley and the Board
Board: Hi Smed, how SWG is doing?
Smed: Very well, we lost a couple of million dollars but at least all the Veterans are foaming from their mouth.
Board: Can we at least open few Classic servers?
Smed: Are you jocking? I would rather slit my veins before giving in to those bastards.......never!
Board: Eheh, you really hate them eh? Rather costly entertainment, but it's worth every single million lost..........
Do you think that is a realistic scenario in a Board of Directors? Honestly..........
From personal experience, I can tell you that's very far from the truth.
If you lose so much money, the only thing you need to bring in the boardroom with you is a couple of fresh nappies, because you will be shitting yourself several times before you ll be allowed to get out, and it's better you have a very reasonable explanation if you want to be allowed in ever again.
In business mistakes like that are not forgiven.
Sometimes I think people have the idea that Smedley is like the guy next door who just happen to run a small developement firm in its garage and make as he please with his software, annoying on purpose all the SWG Veteran because it can.
Smedley is CEO of a multi-million corporation, he is not the owner, he is the manager.
The shareholders are the boss, and if Smedley does anything that can geopardise the renues of the company, the Shareholders will kick his ass.
Lol I can imagine the meetings between Smedley and the Board
Board: Hi Smed, how SWG is doing?
Smed: Very well, we lost a couple of million dollars but at least all the Veterans are foaming from their mouth.
Board: Can we at least open few Classic servers?
Smed: Are you jocking? I would rather slit my veins before giving in to those bastards.......never!
Board: Eheh, you really hate them eh? Rather costly entertainment, but it's worth every single million lost..........
Do you think that is a realistic scenario in a Board of Directors? Honestly..........
From personal experience, I can tell you that's very far from the truth.
If you lose so much money, the only thing you need to bring in the boardroom with you is a couple of fresh nappies, because you will be shitting yourself several times before you ll be allowed to get out, and it's better you have a very reasonable explanation if you want to be allowed in ever again. Whoever John reports to probably doesn't micromanage him to this degree. He probably hits his numbers, and that's all they care about.
SWG Team Mtg.
The one and only thing that makes me think that SOE had/has their hands tied in this mess, and there isn't too much that they can do about it, is the fact that Smedly still has a job. If this were something that SOE had some form of control over, he would have been fired or would have resigned by now. It is the only logical explaination.
For so long now, the majority of us have been blaming SOE for all this. We've concentrated our anger and our hate towards them. And there is absolutly 0 they can do about it. Heck, for all we know they probably secretly agree with us. If we had all taken that energy and focused it towards LA, I'm guessing things would be a lot different right now.
I'd be willing to launch such a campaign, but how much support would I really have and who really cares enough anymore anyway?
SWG? Pull the plug already!
Why does Smedley still have a job? because Smedley had success with EQ2, and brokered the acquisition of a DC comics MMO. He also got his hands into the publishing revenues at Vangaurd (people buy for release, Smedley makes a huge profit with little liability), then once the game tanks, they take over the game, promise changes, and people return, giving more money.
Then there's the genius marketing idea of the Stationpass. (and I mean that literally, it was very smooth marketing.) All those shrewd moves can forgive the massive failure that was the NGE. In the end, SOE is still a profitable corporation.
People might view him shady, but he's a smart shady individual who happens to be very successful. Besides, he's got what a lot of executives don't, media prowess. he knows how to play people's chords and strings when he speaks.
i lost interest in 10 seconds. its common sense what a business is. to make money thats what a business is we all know you dont need to tell us. also we are people who play games for fun and enjoyment not to make money(unless you have a job in doing that with games but im talkin in general). we dont care the reason for doing stuff all we care about is if its fun or not.
if you want you can also blame George Lucas for this. you can blame anyone for anything but who did it last is the one whos problem it is(unless in certain curcumstances but im not getting into that). so who owns the game right now? soe thats who. so whos problem is this game? soe thats who.
Why does Smedley still have a job? because Smedley had success with EQ2, and brokered the acquisition of a DC comics MMO. He also got his hands into the publishing revenues at Vangaurd (people buy for release, Smedley makes a huge profit with little liability), then once the game tanks, they take over the game, promise changes, and people return, giving more money.
Then there's the genius marketing idea of the Stationpass. (and I mean that literally, it was very smooth marketing.) All those shrewd moves can forgive the massive failure that was the NGE. In the end, SOE is still a profitable corporation.
People might view him shady, but he's a smart shady individual who happens to be very successful. Besides, he's got what a lot of executives don't, media prowess. he knows how to play people's chords and strings when he speaks.
SOE currently has fewer total subscribers, across all games, including the Station Pass, than they had with just EQ a few years ago. I'd wager John Smedley still has his job based on the 'big budget blockbuster' business model found in Hollywood. SOE, being part of Sony Pictures Entertainment, can afford to tank a few titles as long as they hit a homerun once in a while. As a company, SOE is still coasting on EQ's success. That provides job security for the SOE management team. Having several IP's, both their own and the three licenses, adds several Assets to the SOE Balance Sheet. I doubt SOE is currently losing money, but I'd bet there will be some restructuring done if the DCU game flops (which I think it will).
I also think you inadvertently added a "2" on the end of "EQ", since EQ2 hasn't even reached SWG's peak numbers yet. Additionally, I doubt that SOE will recover their investment on Vanguard. I think they will have to wait for Vanguard 2 to do so.
I have to say that im a bit confused on how much influence Lucas Arts had on the game development. My experience with how this works is that those who own a license "sell" it off to a company who then makes a game on that license so that both companies can make money on it. Most of the time the developers seem to have the most control as the license holder might not be overly interested in what happens with the game just as long as it pulls in the money.
Take WAR, gameworkshop arent the ones making the game they just sold the license to Mythic. They will ofcourse check on product from time to time.
So unless someone can come up with some proof that Lucas arts have been developing the game closely with SoE, I still blame SoE for what happend to the game.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes"
Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
The NGE itself spawned out of making a "Trial Island" like EQ2 has (the newbie space station). Another part of the development team worked on the craptastic combat changes, and yet another trashed the profession skill system for the class based system. While this was going on at SOE, they continued to have the rest of the dev team work on the Ranger revamp to help keep the NGE secret long enough to sell the ToOW expansion to people they knew were not going to be happy about the NGE. SOE lied to several of their own employees about the NGE in an attempt to rip off their customers.
Ah ok, so its the classic relationship. Devs make something sends it to the license holder who doent know squat about it who then aprove of it nonetheless.
So its really is mostly SoE's dev teams fault as they made the thing and were willing to lie to get it in, and it was Lucas arts fault for not being able to see the disaster on the horizon.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes"
Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
EQ2 was next on the revamp list. The abysmal failure of the NGE led SOE to making thechanges to EQ2 much more slowly, and much more thought out. EQ2 was made much less 'complex' and more solo friendly in an attempt to appeal more to those 'millions of players who are bored of WoW and want something more complex to play' who have yet to actually prove they even exist, yet SOE's current business model is to continue to cater to them.
The entire reason SOE was willing to use SWG as the guinea pig is they thought the "Star Wars" name would prevent the game from losing very many subscribers. The number of people willing to pay a monthly fee for a horrible game set in the Star Wars universe is much smaller than SOE had originally estimated.
I don't doubt that the pitch, by SOE to LucasArts for the NGE, included the phrase "like World of Warcraft" several times. LucasArts deserves some share of the blame for the NGE, but it was SOE who came up with it and sold LucasArts on it. That has been confirmed by several current and former SOE employees. LucasArts didn't tell SOE to revamp the game, SOE came up with the idea and the folks at LucasArts said "Yes".
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW