if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you? i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game? now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it. for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
Because it gives a point to the game. If there was no point in dying but to make you ghost walk to your corpse, why play? Is there a reason? Are you fighting for a land you love? Or simply playing some kind of pvp centric game?
On another subject, IMO perma-death would make achievements greater (OMG YOU KILLED A DRAGON AND LIVED?!!! YOU ARE A LEGEND!) and give people a bit more roleplaying leverage (should i kill this person just because he annoys me or would I receive retaliation by his friends if they found out?).
However, permadeath in any of the current level-centric games would not work as it would anger people and make them mad for losing all they have gained. There would have to be an entire new kind of gameplay style.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder. A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
A nice idea. But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?
"oops! i died again." *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy. There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying. even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse. Otherwise, whats the risk? why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy? you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone. is that fun? not for most ppl over the age of 5.
Originally posted by Bladin
A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content. Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want. 5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death. Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun.
I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.
your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests. and in this I agree! No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter. That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous? Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.
I bet you're one of those people that just peels the stickers off of the Rubik's Cube and re-sticks them so it looks like you solved it.
It's really hard to know where to begin on this one. I think I'll start by deconstructing the CRPG.
Let's go back. Waaaaayyyyy back. Like, to the beginning. I want you to download and play through on game of Lost Labyrinth. Go on. It won't take you any longer than 20 minutes, tops! I promise. Done? Cool. Let's go over what you now know.
Did you notice how you had keep track of everything? You had to pay close attention to your inventory because you needed to drink and eat to stay alive. You probably also noticed that you didn't autoheal. This meant that you had keep track of how many healing herbs you had and sometimes take the risk of drinking a potion or reading a scroll that you knew nothing about. Did you notice how your arrows would run out? Yep, you had to keep track or you'd run out of ammo and have to fight with your hands. Mana also didn't just regenerate on it's own. If you ran into a shop, you had to make a tough decision as to whether or not you wanted to buy the best weapons and armor you could afford, or buy food and water. You had no idea how long it would be before you found another merchant, food, water, or healing of any kind. Your character would advance with every dungeon level so if you wanted to try to avoid combat you could, but that would mean missing out on potential gold and items that you might need later on in the dungeon.
Do you see where I'm going with this? CRPGs are mostly about logistics. MMORPGs are no exception to this rule. The best CRPGs have this thing called "diminishing returns." It means that as your party becomes more powerful, they become more expensive to upkeep. Weapons break and healing cost money. The further you go, the more you have to take risks just to afford the trip. In this way, most CRPGs act as a distant cousin to 4X strategy games.
Like most Strategy games, the player starts off with few options and gains more as he / she progresses. Not all options can be followed, so the player is forced to think about their long term strategy. Unlike most strategy games, you are not really given a single opponent that you know a great deal about. Instead, the scale concentrates on random, individual events that you have to be ready for by planning ahead. You can't really prepare for everything, so you have to be resourceful with every new situation that arises. Without the elements of uncertainty and diminishing returns, there isn't really anything you can call a "game."
MMORPGs have already done away with much of the CRPG formula. You have that handy mine-map with the icons pointing you directly to where you need to go, thus destroying the need for exploration. All the items that are dropped are clearly labeled as to what they do and none of them are cursed or cause any negative effects even when not identified. And finally there's autoheal. The less said about that the better.....
At the very least, death penalties add tension to the game and cause players to actually <gasp> THINK about what they're doing. In a rather indirect way, it's really about responsibility. hmmmm......
For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder. A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
A nice idea. But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?
"oops! i died again." *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy. There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying. even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse. Otherwise, whats the risk? why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy? you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone. is that fun? not for most ppl over the age of 5.
Originally posted by Bladin
A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content. Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want. 5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death. Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun.
I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.
your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests. and in this I agree! No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter. That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous? Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.
But see heres where YOUR logic fails.
I hate dieing in games. I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard". Because losing is something i loathe.
Dieing to me means i've lost. And wining in games is what i'm after. I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time). Even without penalties. I play guild wars random arena for hours trying to win, no ranking, no real gain or loss. Just the fight and the want to win. I do not wish to find a guild to spend time getting everyone with the perfect char in the perfect build for the perfect team, and play.
And see when it comes to a point where you can't enjoy a game, you can't care about winning, or care about achieving anything, without being penalized or crippled then it's time to re-evaluate why you play games. Your not truely enjoying the game, rather the rush and fear of being crippled, because of a loss, not the actual loss itself. Ever play fps or tps games? I do, quite often i enjoy it and i will also work as hard as i can to live and win. But when i lose, do i have to spend a hour being transported back to a hospital, then waiting in a jeep on the way back, just waiting to get back into the action. Would you play that game? Why do you want to experience that in a mmo? it's still a video game.
This goes for things such as bungee jumping and mountain climbing, they aren't enjoying the actual experience of the activity, rather the risk of death. Which is why when people die from these type of activities, i honestly say they deserve it, they put their life at risk, nobody should be surprised at their death. They shouldn't get news time, and they shouldn't get mourned, or get movies/books made about them as if they were heroes. People who purposely risk their life for fun and die from it, are losers.
But the thing here is In a mmorpg dieing does not mean the end of the road. You continue on, keep fighting more battles. Asking to stop you from continueing on for a extended period of time, is just that you will be able to play this game LESS and spend MORE time waiting. And frankly thats not a cause for a excitement, and thrill, if your desperate for thrills maybe, but in the end it leads to nothing but boredom.
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you? i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game? now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it. for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
I second that laugh!
And yu seconded that lack of Post it seems neither of you can find a valid reason to disagree with me so you try to deflate my responce with a childish responce
That is why I believe in death penalties in video games. Should we really support the thought process that stupid mistakes should go un punished? I prefer to play with smarter people. So I choose a game that challenged people instead of giving them a false sense of greandeur.
For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder. A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
A nice idea. But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?
"oops! i died again." *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy. There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying. even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse. Otherwise, whats the risk? why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy? you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone. is that fun? not for most ppl over the age of 5.
Originally posted by Bladin
A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content. Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want. 5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death. Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun.
I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.
your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests. and in this I agree! No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter. That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous? Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.
But see heres where YOUR logic fails.
I hate dieing in games. I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard". Because losing is something i loathe.
Dieing to me means i've lost. And wining in games is what i'm after. I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time). Even without penalties. I play guild wars random arena for hours trying to win, no ranking, no real gain or loss. Just the fight and the want to win. I do not wish to find a guild to spend time getting everyone with the perfect char in the perfect build for the perfect team, and play.
And see when it comes to a point where you can't enjoy a game, you can't care about winning, or care about achieving anything, without being penalized or crippled then it's time to re-evaluate why you play games. Your not truely enjoying the game, rather the rush and fear of being crippled, because of a loss, not the actual loss itself. Ever play fps or tps games? I do, quite often i enjoy it and i will also work as hard as i can to live and win. But when i lose, do i have to spend a hour being transported back to a hospital, then waiting in a jeep on the way back, just waiting to get back into the action. Would you play that game? Why do you want to experience that in a mmo? it's still a video game.
Exactly. And as mentioned, a harsh death penalty can prevent people from exploring or trying to engage in activities.
I hate getting killed especially by another PC and that in itself is penalty enough for me. Having then to add time, money and effort into getting myslef back to the point I was pre-death is loathsome. In Neocron for example after death some of your implants would fall out. Implants boosted certain stats allowing you to use higher lvl gear, which was essential. Replacing implants required skills, tools and matts. So in the event of death not only did you have to respawn away from the action you also had to find someone ( unless you had the 'implanting skill' which was governed by levels ) to put your implants in for you and then get back to your body to get any decent items back that you had dropped. Mix in the item decay factor and all in all this could produce an extremely miserable experience. Why?
Gankers, campers and the ( ever expanding ) antisocial populous.
Take the above example, you've been PK'd, you have ressurection 'sickness', some of your implants are out ( so you are even weaker ) and you have 'dropped' your decent, perhaps your ONLY decent weapon along with other items. So you need to get your stuff back, problem is that gank squad is waiting. Keep trying until you have nothing left, or log out? Sure you can try and find help. or call upon guildies, but if no-one is around?
Some people live to inflct this misery upon others, as you can see from some of the replies here. They want you to suffer, they want you to drop your items.
I've done my time in MMO's that penalize you further for being defeated, lost many xp in AO. You 'insure' before you enter the mission, it's a tough one, you get to then very end or even on the way home and die *poof* all that xp gone, all that time wasted .
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.
But didn't the chance of losing your ship make the environment more 'real'? didn't you feel accomplishment when you flew somewhere or attacked something and you DIDN'T lose your ship? Didn't you have the drive to learn from that experience and better yourself from it, and if you did, didn't that as well feel like an accomplishment? Didn't all of a sudden the whole universe actually feel like it's BIG, because it takes effort to get somewhere? If there's no emotional attachment, what keeps you playing/entertained for so long?
Also, didn't you learn from your loss that you should never fly something you can't afford to lose? Wasn't this explained to you? didn't you read up on it? didn't you figure out the dangers you might run into while doing what you were doing? weren't you prepared? Were you alone? In other words; were you treating the game like an FPS?
In an MMORPG I want to 'feel' the wrold that's being created, I want to be able to make it as 'real' as possible, and all of the things that make things more easy in an MMO (no death penalty, fast/insta travel and more things everyone wants to have to make the game take less effort) is actually a LOSS to the game environment. If people can insta travel you effectively shrink the gameworld, you deprive them from the feeling of being in that world, you deprive them of the option to interact with others while traveling and all that. Same with no deathpenalties, having none or very soft ones actually tear up the very IDEA of an MMORPG.
The funny thing is, I am all for Permadeath. I don't think you can be called a Hardcore PVPer without Permadeath. And EVE is about as close as a game can come to it. The 2 things EVE taught me was that I didn't need to waste all that money on a BS and never play drunk.
I solo in MMO's, which is another topic, so I never have a corp or guild to fall back on. So when I play I usually want mind-numbing tedium. I don't want it to feel real. That is until Virtual Reality or a Holodeck comes out.
Hehe, actually my view on permadeath is that it's not really usable in a realtime environment, there's too many out of game problems (DC's, phonecalls, whatever) for permadeath to be a viable option. In turnbased games you do not have that problem (much less anyway), you have the time to think about your actions and all that before giving a command so there Permadeath would be viable.
guys we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES. you are suppose to have fun with them not to take them too seriously. some people like to have fun by jackin around in them. thats there problem if they want to jack around you can always just ignore them. some people realize that these are just games and dont take into account the consequences. they realize the truth that its just a game and the penaltys in it are just part of the game. it doesnt affect them in real life so why should they care? no matter what people will ignore the consequences and still do stupid things. this applys to everything. you see shootouts and bombs goin off on the news? same thing they dont care about the consequences. but we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES here.
thing about this also. you are payin a monthly fee to get your character to max lvl and to have fun and enjoy it. how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? i dont know about you guys but i never had fun with that. it delays you from the fun stuff at the end. if there is no fun stuff at the end why play the game? i dont like to be FORCED to play a game longer i should be able to play a game when i want to and as long as i want. im also payin my money to put some of my time to play the game. when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost. but they dont so they are sucking away money from us by makin these permament death penalties.
for all you guys who want to take risks and stuff. playing a COMPUTER GAME is not the same thing as skydiving and stuff like that. you are sitting in your room looking at a computer monitor not going outside and doin something that could kill you. how do you get a adrenaline rush out of looking at something off a monitor? i dont know about you guys but i just play games just to play them and enjoy them without fear of getting hurt or loosing something valuable. noone is gonna come and start beating the hell out of you for dying in a game. so why not play a game just to play it and to have fun without loosin anything?
guys we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES. you are suppose to have fun with them not to take them too seriously. some people like to have fun by jackin around in them. thats there problem if they want to jack around you can always just ignore them. some people realize that these are just games and dont take into account the consequences. they realize the truth that its just a game and the penaltys in it are just part of the game. it doesnt affect them in real life so why should they care? no matter what people will ignore the consequences and still do stupid things. this applys to everything. you see shootouts and bombs goin off on the news? same thing they dont care about the consequences. but we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES here. thing about this also. you are payin a monthly fee to get your character to max lvl and to have fun and enjoy it. how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? i dont know about you guys but i never had fun with that. it delays you from the fun stuff at the end. if there is no fun stuff at the end why play the game? i dont like to be FORCED to play a game longer i should be able to play a game when i want to and as long as i want. im also payin my money to put some of my time to play the game. when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost. but they dont so they are sucking away money from us by makin these permament death penalties. for all you guys who want to take risks and stuff. playing a COMPUTER GAME is not the same thing as skydiving and stuff like that. you are sitting in your room looking at a computer monitor not going outside and doin something that could kill you. how do you get a adrenaline rush out of looking at something off a monitor? i dont know about you guys but i just play games just to play them and enjoy them without fear of getting hurt or loosing something valuable. noone is gonna come and start beating the hell out of you for dying in a game. so why not play a game just to play it and to have fun without loosin anything?
Play EVE, be a trader in your hauler and go through low sec. Engage in PVP, take on a big ship in your little frigate, see you first gang warfare, see your 100th gangwarfare. All these aspects will get your adrenaline rushing, trust me.
The reason why you feel that it doesn't is because you play game with no penalties, not the other way round.
I hate dieing in games. I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard". Because losing is something i loathe.
Dieing to me means i've lost. And wining in games is what i'm after. I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time).
LOL okay, I didn't understand . Any concept of loss is unacceptable to you. I understand now. I also understand that if you don't want to lose than you shouldn't play games with other players.
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you? i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game? now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it. for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
I second that laugh!
And yu seconded that lack of Post it seems neither of you can find a valid reason to disagree with me so you try to deflate my responce with a childish responce
-PERMADEATH, but only if killed by a PC (with the exception of, let's say if you are questing or what not, and you get killed by the same type of mob more than 2 times, then by god, 3rd time you should die for good if you can't evolve, bye bye)
+
-HORIZONTAL progression
+
-The Best Crafting System Ever
+
-PVP with big red KILL button, so when you fight someone you can kick his ass but don't have to kill him (I realy miss that in current games, I like the chalenge of a good fight but I find it realy crappy that I need to kill someone to defeat him, I just want to kick his ass, take some things of him and say to him, hey pal, if you want theese back, look me up)
Exactly. And as mentioned, a harsh death penalty can prevent people from exploring or trying to engage in activities.
I hate getting killed especially by another PC and that in itself is penalty enough for me. Having then to add time, money and effort into getting myslef back to the point I was pre-death is loathsome. In Neocron for example after death some of your implants would fall out. Implants boosted certain stats allowing you to use higher lvl gear, which was essential. Replacing implants required skills, tools and matts. So in the event of death not only did you have to respawn away from the action you also had to find someone ( unless you had the 'implanting skill' which was governed by levels ) to put your implants in for you and then get back to your body to get any decent items back that you had dropped. Mix in the item decay factor and all in all this could produce an extremely miserable experience. Why?
Gankers, campers and the ( ever expanding ) antisocial populous.
Take the above example, you've been PK'd, you have ressurection 'sickness', some of your implants are out ( so you are even weaker ) and you have 'dropped' your decent, perhaps your ONLY decent weapon along with other items. So you need to get your stuff back, problem is that gank squad is waiting. Keep trying until you have nothing left, or log out? Sure you can try and find help. or call upon guildies, but if no-one is around?
Some people live to inflct this misery upon others, as you can see from some of the replies here. They want you to suffer, they want you to drop your items.
I've done my time in MMO's that penalize you further for being defeated, lost many xp in AO. You 'insure' before you enter the mission, it's a tough one, you get to then very end or even on the way home and die *poof* all that xp gone, all that time wasted .
Death penalties, harsh ones atleast, are old hat.
The KEY word in your post is HARSH. Yes your right, a HARSH dp sucks. it doesn't add much of anything to the game. If you read my previous post you'll understand my point. Dying should cause you to lose large amounts of ANYTHING. but there should be a penalty to motivate the player to avoid dying. As a previous poster mentioned, death without a signifigant penalty becomes a method of transportation. And that my friend is lame.
how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost.
Okay, point #1 I enjoy playing a game that involves chance. would you play a game long if after paying your $$ you automatically achieved max level, max gear, and were in god mode constantly? How long would you play when you realized that you can kill any all computer opponents? How long would you play if PvP was a never ending fight that never stopped because after ppl 'die' they just stand back up with full health? I'm guessing you'd play if for a few minutes...maybe a few hours and then you'd never play it again.
Point #2 you pay to play. They don't promise you anything accept that you can play. Thats it. If you don't like the way the game plays then...don't pay. it's just that easy.
Harsh death penalties exist so the game's publisher can implement yet another time/money sink in the game to keep you playing/paying longer.
People like harsh death penalties because it gives them the illusion of being "hardcore". It gives them the feeling of being better than someone they will never meet. The whole "risk/reward" argument is just a weak rationale to convince themselves and others that they are having fun by being screwed over.
The days of harsh death penalties are as dead as hardcore free for all PvP. Only the insane enjoy them and they stunt the growth of any and all MMOs that have them. MMO developers should NOT be encouraged to come up with new ways for us to hate their game, Sigil had to learn this lesson the hard way.
Believe it or not the overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs dont want to lose internet connection and die because of it to log back in and find that they lost: 10% exp, gear they had equipped, some gold AND now have to spend 5 minutes running back to their corpse.
Harsh death penalties exist so the game's publisher can implement yet another time/money sink in the game to keep you playing/paying longer. People like harsh death penalties because it gives them the illusion of being "hardcore". It gives them the feeling of being better than someone they will never meet. The whole "risk/reward" argument is just a weak rationale to convince themselves and others that they are having fun by being screwed over. The days of harsh death penalties are as dead as hardcore free for all PvP. Only the insane enjoy them and they stunt the growth of any and all MMOs that have them. MMO developers should NOT be encouraged to come up with new ways for us to hate their game, Sigil had to learn this lesson the hard way. You should see eve then tons of content every year yet its a PvP game with the harshest D Penalty. Believe it or not the overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs dont want to lose internet connection and die because of it to log back in and find that they lost: 10% exp, gear they had equipped, some gold AND now have to spend 5 minutes running back to their corpse. So you have questiond every MMO player have you? Gee you ahve a lt of time.
EVE seems to be getting more popular as time goes on, instead of the other way around. Not my sort of game, but good for them! I don't know numbers but I would guess that more people enjoy a game without harsh penalties. I suppose that's why more games have somewhat trivial penalties such as in WoW and LOTRO. Some, such as EQ2, have even gone so far as to remove the harshest of the lot. I think I read that their sub rates even started going up after they did that and added a bunch of solo content. I know I'm casual to the extent that I don't want to spend too much time redoing things or recovering from penalties. I'm just looking for something entertaining to do a couple of hours every day or so that doesn't demand too much of a time commitment.
I'm very much pro having a variety of MMOs for people to choose from, however. It's disappointing that most developers (well, the ones with loads of money, anyway) seem reluctant to take a chance and offer up something different, whether it's a different environment from Fantasy and Science Fiction, or game complexity or anything. Just because it's something I might not enjoy myself, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist for other people to enjoy.
It's an extremely rare occurance for me to ever loss connection while playing an MMO, and I can only think of one occurance where it happened during PvP, in Pre CU SWG. I was a struggling Rifleman taking on a BH/CM, my death was already certain.
I'm a PvPer, I wasn't to start with but I found out that in MMOs the only real challenge came from players. When it comes to PvE the only difference between an easy mob and a high level mob was a combination of three things, it's armour, it's HP and it's damage. There was no innovative use of abilities, no cunning plan to unveil, not even a sense of honour or proper motivation. PvP on the other hand, your opponent has earnt thier power, they're crafty, they're (usually) knowledgable and you can't predict the fight by reading a wiki entry denoting stages and 'suggested reactions' like Onyxia in WoW for example. That's the basis of why I PvP.
This alone however doesn't make an MMO, it makes a multiplayer. A UT match or DoA on the XBox does the same thing and I dont have to pay each month for it. What makes an MMO is cause and effect, of the persistant nature. I put in the time to grind xp, I get stronger. I pump out a few missions, I get money. I make allies and enemies and do things you can't undo by reloading a saved game.
Now, combine my two 'ideals' of online gaming. Without a death penalty there is no cause and effect for PvP. If I kill someone, they just respawn and come back. It becomes a simple case of whoever gets bored first forfiets. Then you get the epitomy of greifers, the kind that will attack you and annoy you, all the while knowing that even if you do beat them they'll be none the worse. I understand they'll do more damage initially with a nice high death penalty but for the chance to fight back and make them really hurt, to give them pause before they attack the next player, that's priceless.
Death penalties also makes what I consider to be the epitomy of MMO PvP possible. Faction vs Faction conflict with achievable goals, capturable and holdable ground, fluid battlelines. You just can't win a battle when your defeated opponents can just come running back into the fight.
Plus, I like the realism and the RP possibility.
All in all, yes, there are carebears out there that want a no-risk game that's more like a multiplayer game of Oblivion and they'll be quite willing to pay to play it, but I wont be one of them and there are many who think as I do. If game developers truley believe it's pointless to make a game that caters to a large percentage of the MMO playing community then my assertions on the level of human stupidity would actually be a gross understatement.
Play what you want, but dont advocate the denial of a game for me.
I'm going to try to sum up and simplify my last post since there are a lot of people that apparently didn't get it.
If you take away the condition of failure, you no longer have a "game." Hell, you don't even have a puzzle! Without resistance, there is no point because there is no feeling of accomplishment.
If you're going to take away death penalties, why not just start everyone off with maxed stats and the best gear? Let's take it even further and make it so that players can't take damage! Why even pretend that there is death in the game at all? Let's give all the monsters one hit point and take away their ability to fight back!
After all that, what are you left with? A graphical chat room. Maybe you would feel better hanging out on Second Life or There.
i'm starting to get the impression that some posters aren't reading the other posts. They seem to be throwing their post in without seeing what we're talking about.
At no point that i'm aware of has the OP or anyone else said "we like HARSH death penalty". The op asked WHY there are death penalties. NOT, I like HARSH death penalties.
In fact i think it's safe to say NO ONE likes harsh death penalties. No one likes losing hours of game time. And now that we can all/most agree to this lets move on to the original post k? WHY are there death penalties?
Comments
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
On another subject, IMO perma-death would make achievements greater (OMG YOU KILLED A DRAGON AND LIVED?!!! YOU ARE A LEGEND!) and give people a bit more roleplaying leverage (should i kill this person just because he annoys me or would I receive retaliation by his friends if they found out?).
However, permadeath in any of the current level-centric games would not work as it would anger people and make them mad for losing all they have gained. There would have to be an entire new kind of gameplay style.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
A nice idea. But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?
"oops! i died again." *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy.
There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying. even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse. Otherwise, whats the risk? why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy? you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone. is that fun? not for most ppl over the age of 5.
your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests. and in this I agree! No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter. That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous? Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
I bet you're one of those people that just peels the stickers off of the Rubik's Cube and re-sticks them so it looks like you solved it.
It's really hard to know where to begin on this one. I think I'll start by deconstructing the CRPG.
Let's go back. Waaaaayyyyy back. Like, to the beginning. I want you to download and play through on game of Lost Labyrinth. Go on. It won't take you any longer than 20 minutes, tops! I promise. Done? Cool. Let's go over what you now know.
Did you notice how you had keep track of everything? You had to pay close attention to your inventory because you needed to drink and eat to stay alive. You probably also noticed that you didn't autoheal. This meant that you had keep track of how many healing herbs you had and sometimes take the risk of drinking a potion or reading a scroll that you knew nothing about. Did you notice how your arrows would run out? Yep, you had to keep track or you'd run out of ammo and have to fight with your hands. Mana also didn't just regenerate on it's own. If you ran into a shop, you had to make a tough decision as to whether or not you wanted to buy the best weapons and armor you could afford, or buy food and water. You had no idea how long it would be before you found another merchant, food, water, or healing of any kind. Your character would advance with every dungeon level so if you wanted to try to avoid combat you could, but that would mean missing out on potential gold and items that you might need later on in the dungeon.
Do you see where I'm going with this? CRPGs are mostly about logistics. MMORPGs are no exception to this rule. The best CRPGs have this thing called "diminishing returns." It means that as your party becomes more powerful, they become more expensive to upkeep. Weapons break and healing cost money. The further you go, the more you have to take risks just to afford the trip. In this way, most CRPGs act as a distant cousin to 4X strategy games.
Like most Strategy games, the player starts off with few options and gains more as he / she progresses. Not all options can be followed, so the player is forced to think about their long term strategy. Unlike most strategy games, you are not really given a single opponent that you know a great deal about. Instead, the scale concentrates on random, individual events that you have to be ready for by planning ahead. You can't really prepare for everything, so you have to be resourceful with every new situation that arises. Without the elements of uncertainty and diminishing returns, there isn't really anything you can call a "game."
MMORPGs have already done away with much of the CRPG formula. You have that handy mine-map with the icons pointing you directly to where you need to go, thus destroying the need for exploration. All the items that are dropped are clearly labeled as to what they do and none of them are cursed or cause any negative effects even when not identified. And finally there's autoheal. The less said about that the better.....
At the very least, death penalties add tension to the game and cause players to actually <gasp> THINK about what they're doing. In a rather indirect way, it's really about responsibility. hmmmm......
A nice idea. But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?
"oops! i died again." *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy.
There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying. even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse. Otherwise, whats the risk? why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy? you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone. is that fun? not for most ppl over the age of 5.
your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests. and in this I agree! No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter. That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous? Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.
But see heres where YOUR logic fails.
I hate dieing in games. I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard". Because losing is something i loathe.
Dieing to me means i've lost. And wining in games is what i'm after. I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time). Even without penalties. I play guild wars random arena for hours trying to win, no ranking, no real gain or loss. Just the fight and the want to win. I do not wish to find a guild to spend time getting everyone with the perfect char in the perfect build for the perfect team, and play.
And see when it comes to a point where you can't enjoy a game, you can't care about winning, or care about achieving anything, without being penalized or crippled then it's time to re-evaluate why you play games. Your not truely enjoying the game, rather the rush and fear of being crippled, because of a loss, not the actual loss itself. Ever play fps or tps games? I do, quite often i enjoy it and i will also work as hard as i can to live and win. But when i lose, do i have to spend a hour being transported back to a hospital, then waiting in a jeep on the way back, just waiting to get back into the action. Would you play that game? Why do you want to experience that in a mmo? it's still a video game.
This goes for things such as bungee jumping and mountain climbing, they aren't enjoying the actual experience of the activity, rather the risk of death. Which is why when people die from these type of activities, i honestly say they deserve it, they put their life at risk, nobody should be surprised at their death. They shouldn't get news time, and they shouldn't get mourned, or get movies/books made about them as if they were heroes. People who purposely risk their life for fun and die from it, are losers.
But the thing here is In a mmorpg dieing does not mean the end of the road. You continue on, keep fighting more battles. Asking to stop you from continueing on for a extended period of time, is just that you will be able to play this game LESS and spend MORE time waiting. And frankly thats not a cause for a excitement, and thrill, if your desperate for thrills maybe, but in the end it leads to nothing but boredom.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
And yu seconded that lack of Post it seems neither of you can find a valid reason to disagree with me so you try to deflate my responce with a childish responce
Try better next time Carebears
Why does fire burn?
Why does injury hurt?
To teach you a lesson.
To evolve.
To become better than you currently are.
People should be repremended for stupid behavior.
That is why I believe in death penalties in video games. Should we really support the thought process that stupid mistakes should go un punished? I prefer to play with smarter people. So I choose a game that challenged people instead of giving them a false sense of greandeur.
A nice idea. But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?
"oops! i died again." *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy.
There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying. even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse. Otherwise, whats the risk? why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy? you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone. is that fun? not for most ppl over the age of 5.
your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests. and in this I agree! No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter. That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous? Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.
But see heres where YOUR logic fails.
I hate dieing in games. I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard". Because losing is something i loathe.
Dieing to me means i've lost. And wining in games is what i'm after. I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time). Even without penalties. I play guild wars random arena for hours trying to win, no ranking, no real gain or loss. Just the fight and the want to win. I do not wish to find a guild to spend time getting everyone with the perfect char in the perfect build for the perfect team, and play.
And see when it comes to a point where you can't enjoy a game, you can't care about winning, or care about achieving anything, without being penalized or crippled then it's time to re-evaluate why you play games. Your not truely enjoying the game, rather the rush and fear of being crippled, because of a loss, not the actual loss itself. Ever play fps or tps games? I do, quite often i enjoy it and i will also work as hard as i can to live and win. But when i lose, do i have to spend a hour being transported back to a hospital, then waiting in a jeep on the way back, just waiting to get back into the action. Would you play that game? Why do you want to experience that in a mmo? it's still a video game.
Exactly. And as mentioned, a harsh death penalty can prevent people from exploring or trying to engage in activities.
I hate getting killed especially by another PC and that in itself is penalty enough for me. Having then to add time, money and effort into getting myslef back to the point I was pre-death is loathsome. In Neocron for example after death some of your implants would fall out. Implants boosted certain stats allowing you to use higher lvl gear, which was essential. Replacing implants required skills, tools and matts. So in the event of death not only did you have to respawn away from the action you also had to find someone ( unless you had the 'implanting skill' which was governed by levels ) to put your implants in for you and then get back to your body to get any decent items back that you had dropped. Mix in the item decay factor and all in all this could produce an extremely miserable experience. Why?
Gankers, campers and the ( ever expanding ) antisocial populous.
Take the above example, you've been PK'd, you have ressurection 'sickness', some of your implants are out ( so you are even weaker ) and you have 'dropped' your decent, perhaps your ONLY decent weapon along with other items. So you need to get your stuff back, problem is that gank squad is waiting. Keep trying until you have nothing left, or log out? Sure you can try and find help. or call upon guildies, but if no-one is around?
Some people live to inflct this misery upon others, as you can see from some of the replies here. They want you to suffer, they want you to drop your items.
I've done my time in MMO's that penalize you further for being defeated, lost many xp in AO. You 'insure' before you enter the mission, it's a tough one, you get to then very end or even on the way home and die *poof* all that xp gone, all that time wasted
Death penalties, harsh ones atleast, are old hat.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.But didn't the chance of losing your ship make the environment more 'real'? didn't you feel accomplishment when you flew somewhere or attacked something and you DIDN'T lose your ship? Didn't you have the drive to learn from that experience and better yourself from it, and if you did, didn't that as well feel like an accomplishment? Didn't all of a sudden the whole universe actually feel like it's BIG, because it takes effort to get somewhere? If there's no emotional attachment, what keeps you playing/entertained for so long?
Also, didn't you learn from your loss that you should never fly something you can't afford to lose? Wasn't this explained to you? didn't you read up on it? didn't you figure out the dangers you might run into while doing what you were doing? weren't you prepared? Were you alone? In other words; were you treating the game like an FPS?
In an MMORPG I want to 'feel' the wrold that's being created, I want to be able to make it as 'real' as possible, and all of the things that make things more easy in an MMO (no death penalty, fast/insta travel and more things everyone wants to have to make the game take less effort) is actually a LOSS to the game environment. If people can insta travel you effectively shrink the gameworld, you deprive them from the feeling of being in that world, you deprive them of the option to interact with others while traveling and all that. Same with no deathpenalties, having none or very soft ones actually tear up the very IDEA of an MMORPG.
The funny thing is, I am all for Permadeath. I don't think you can be called a Hardcore PVPer without Permadeath. And EVE is about as close as a game can come to it. The 2 things EVE taught me was that I didn't need to waste all that money on a BS and never play drunk.I solo in MMO's, which is another topic, so I never have a corp or guild to fall back on. So when I play I usually want mind-numbing tedium. I don't want it to feel real. That is until Virtual Reality or a Holodeck comes out.
Hehe, actually my view on permadeath is that it's not really usable in a realtime environment, there's too many out of game problems (DC's, phonecalls, whatever) for permadeath to be a viable option. In turnbased games you do not have that problem (much less anyway), you have the time to think about your actions and all that before giving a command so there Permadeath would be viable.
guys we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES. you are suppose to have fun with them not to take them too seriously. some people like to have fun by jackin around in them. thats there problem if they want to jack around you can always just ignore them. some people realize that these are just games and dont take into account the consequences. they realize the truth that its just a game and the penaltys in it are just part of the game. it doesnt affect them in real life so why should they care? no matter what people will ignore the consequences and still do stupid things. this applys to everything. you see shootouts and bombs goin off on the news? same thing they dont care about the consequences. but we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES here.
thing about this also. you are payin a monthly fee to get your character to max lvl and to have fun and enjoy it. how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? i dont know about you guys but i never had fun with that. it delays you from the fun stuff at the end. if there is no fun stuff at the end why play the game? i dont like to be FORCED to play a game longer i should be able to play a game when i want to and as long as i want. im also payin my money to put some of my time to play the game. when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost. but they dont so they are sucking away money from us by makin these permament death penalties.
for all you guys who want to take risks and stuff. playing a COMPUTER GAME is not the same thing as skydiving and stuff like that. you are sitting in your room looking at a computer monitor not going outside and doin something that could kill you. how do you get a adrenaline rush out of looking at something off a monitor? i dont know about you guys but i just play games just to play them and enjoy them without fear of getting hurt or loosing something valuable. noone is gonna come and start beating the hell out of you for dying in a game. so why not play a game just to play it and to have fun without loosin anything?
Play EVE, be a trader in your hauler and go through low sec. Engage in PVP, take on a big ship in your little frigate, see you first gang warfare, see your 100th gangwarfare. All these aspects will get your adrenaline rushing, trust me.
The reason why you feel that it doesn't is because you play game with no penalties, not the other way round.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
And yu seconded that lack of Post it seems neither of you can find a valid reason to disagree with me so you try to deflate my responce with a childish responce
Try better next time Carebears
No i thought the ADD response was funny as hell.We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
-PERMADEATH, but only if killed by a PC (with the exception of, let's say if you are questing or what not, and you get killed by the same type of mob more than 2 times, then by god, 3rd time you should die for good if you can't evolve, bye bye)
+
-HORIZONTAL progression
+
-The Best Crafting System Ever
+
-PVP with big red KILL button, so when you fight someone you can kick his ass but don't have to kill him (I realy miss that in current games, I like the chalenge of a good fight but I find it realy crappy that I need to kill someone to defeat him, I just want to kick his ass, take some things of him and say to him, hey pal, if you want theese back, look me up)
gimme gimme gimme
The KEY word in your post is HARSH. Yes your right, a HARSH dp sucks. it doesn't add much of anything to the game. If you read my previous post you'll understand my point. Dying should cause you to lose large amounts of ANYTHING
. but there should be a penalty to motivate the player to avoid dying. As a previous poster mentioned, death without a signifigant penalty becomes a method of transportation
. And that my friend is lame.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Okay, point #1 I enjoy playing a game that involves chance. would you play a game long if after paying your $$ you automatically achieved max level, max gear, and were in god mode constantly? How long would you play when you realized that you can kill any all computer opponents? How long would you play if PvP was a never ending fight that never stopped because after ppl 'die' they just stand back up with full health? I'm guessing you'd play if for a few minutes...maybe a few hours and then you'd never play it again.
Point #2 you pay to play. They don't promise you anything accept that you can play. Thats it. If you don't like the way the game plays then...don't pay. it's just that easy.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Harsh death penalties exist so the game's publisher can implement yet another time/money sink in the game to keep you playing/paying longer.
People like harsh death penalties because it gives them the illusion of being "hardcore". It gives them the feeling of being better than someone they will never meet. The whole "risk/reward" argument is just a weak rationale to convince themselves and others that they are having fun by being screwed over.
The days of harsh death penalties are as dead as hardcore free for all PvP. Only the insane enjoy them and they stunt the growth of any and all MMOs that have them. MMO developers should NOT be encouraged to come up with new ways for us to hate their game, Sigil had to learn this lesson the hard way.
Believe it or not the overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs dont want to lose internet connection and die because of it to log back in and find that they lost: 10% exp, gear they had equipped, some gold AND now have to spend 5 minutes running back to their corpse.
I'm very much pro having a variety of MMOs for people to choose from, however. It's disappointing that most developers (well, the ones with loads of money, anyway) seem reluctant to take a chance and offer up something different, whether it's a different environment from Fantasy and Science Fiction, or game complexity or anything. Just because it's something I might not enjoy myself, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist for other people to enjoy.
It's an extremely rare occurance for me to ever loss connection while playing an MMO, and I can only think of one occurance where it happened during PvP, in Pre CU SWG. I was a struggling Rifleman taking on a BH/CM, my death was already certain.
I'm a PvPer, I wasn't to start with but I found out that in MMOs the only real challenge came from players. When it comes to PvE the only difference between an easy mob and a high level mob was a combination of three things, it's armour, it's HP and it's damage. There was no innovative use of abilities, no cunning plan to unveil, not even a sense of honour or proper motivation. PvP on the other hand, your opponent has earnt thier power, they're crafty, they're (usually) knowledgable and you can't predict the fight by reading a wiki entry denoting stages and 'suggested reactions' like Onyxia in WoW for example. That's the basis of why I PvP.
This alone however doesn't make an MMO, it makes a multiplayer. A UT match or DoA on the XBox does the same thing and I dont have to pay each month for it. What makes an MMO is cause and effect, of the persistant nature. I put in the time to grind xp, I get stronger. I pump out a few missions, I get money. I make allies and enemies and do things you can't undo by reloading a saved game.
Now, combine my two 'ideals' of online gaming. Without a death penalty there is no cause and effect for PvP. If I kill someone, they just respawn and come back. It becomes a simple case of whoever gets bored first forfiets. Then you get the epitomy of greifers, the kind that will attack you and annoy you, all the while knowing that even if you do beat them they'll be none the worse. I understand they'll do more damage initially with a nice high death penalty but for the chance to fight back and make them really hurt, to give them pause before they attack the next player, that's priceless.
Death penalties also makes what I consider to be the epitomy of MMO PvP possible. Faction vs Faction conflict with achievable goals, capturable and holdable ground, fluid battlelines. You just can't win a battle when your defeated opponents can just come running back into the fight.
Plus, I like the realism and the RP possibility.
All in all, yes, there are carebears out there that want a no-risk game that's more like a multiplayer game of Oblivion and they'll be quite willing to pay to play it, but I wont be one of them and there are many who think as I do. If game developers truley believe it's pointless to make a game that caters to a large percentage of the MMO playing community then my assertions on the level of human stupidity would actually be a gross understatement.
Play what you want, but dont advocate the denial of a game for me.
i personally hate expirience death penaltys. I dont mind items, money, running to corpse, those are all expendible but wont put you to far back
the feeling of having hours of expirience taken away has driven me away from many a game
If you take away the condition of failure, you no longer have a "game." Hell, you don't even have a puzzle! Without resistance, there is no point because there is no feeling of accomplishment.
If you're going to take away death penalties, why not just start everyone off with maxed stats and the best gear? Let's take it even further and make it so that players can't take damage! Why even pretend that there is death in the game at all? Let's give all the monsters one hit point and take away their ability to fight back!
After all that, what are you left with? A graphical chat room. Maybe you would feel better hanging out on Second Life or There.
i'm starting to get the impression that some posters aren't reading the other posts. They seem to be throwing their post in without seeing what we're talking about.
At no point that i'm aware of has the OP or anyone else said "we like HARSH death penalty". The op asked WHY there are death penalties. NOT, I like HARSH death penalties.
In fact i think it's safe to say NO ONE likes harsh death penalties. No one likes losing hours of game time. And now that we can all/most agree to this lets move on to the original post k? WHY are there death penalties?
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.