Personally I'd give it a year or two and then may have at it. I had quite a bit of fun for a few months in EQII for a couple of months after The Fae expansion came out that must have been about 2 years after launch I guess.
Okay, I could give a rat's you know what about Brad's so called Vision. However, one thing I always admired about him (prior to Vanguard) was that he didn't give in to every whimsical "want" that the player base demanded. What people want at one time isn't always what they want at another. A good example of this would be PoP for Everquest. Yes, people were sick of the travel time and demanded that it be shortened. When it was, the very same people said that it "dumbed down the game" and that it "killed immersion". People really don't know what they want.
As far as Vanguard is concerned, the best thing they can do is fix the bugs. That in itself will bring people back.
I should mention, as a long time EQ 1 vet who still plays (sometimes as low as once a week), I liked PoP a lot.
I liked the grouping areas. I just did not like the flagging and raiding. Brad was not responsible for PoP; he did not develop it.
I firmly believe if EQ 1 kept was was great - awesome and very fun GROUPING and small grouping dungeons- I believe tons of people would still play the game.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
The peoples who complains about the immersion been killed are not the same peoples, they are the peoples who complains when the book-meditation was changed, when the hell levels where removed.
As other post, raiding is the bad thing that kills EQ. I really tried hard to like raiding. But, raiding is a FOREIGN GAMEPLAY and I absolutely, completely and totally hate it. I will never raid again and if raiders are better then me at anything outside of raiding, I am not playing whatever game which is that lame. Non-negociable. PvP is less offensive to me then this raiding trash. If some peoples like raiding, IF this is the case, fine, give them a server, differents stats that have no impact on grouping or whatever, but don't give them squat bonus VS groupers, cause if we bring it down to Groupers VS Raiders, we all know that the grouping system is what work and players want, not the lowly raiding system. And the casuals groupers, they really like to have an Anofalye that is doing PUGs all the time, it also allow them to dream and hope to reach the top of the grouping system if raiding is not present, and they can indeed be there, eventually.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Ah, I guess I didn't separate the two enough. I know Brad didn't develop PoP. I was just using it as an example of people not really knowing what they wanted. I never wanted PoP and when it came out I didn't like it. I never had a problem with traveling since I did in fact meet many friends that way.
With that said, I agree that VG needs more time. I would not play it in its current state, but will wait until their are more updates. Hopefully they can fix it up nicely because I too believed it had a lot of potential.
Edit: You say that they weren't the same people, but my experience was otherwise. Even people I knew had wanted it and when it came they loved it, but after awhile they started to complain. Anyway I guess it wasn't a good example since people's perspectives will be different.
The peoples who complains about the immersion been killed are not the same peoples, they are the peoples who complains when the book-meditation was changed, when the hell levels where removed.
As other post, raiding is the bad thing that kills EQ. I really tried hard to like raiding. But, raiding is a FOREIGN GAMEPLAY and I absolutely, completely and totally hate it. I will never raid again and if raiders are better then me at anything outside of raiding, I am not playing whatever game is that lame. Non-negociable. PvP is less offensive to me then this raiding trash. If some peoples like raiding, IF this is the case, fine, give them a server, differents stats that have no impact on grouping or whatever, but don't give them squat bonus VS groupers, cause if we bring it down to Groupers VS Raiders, we all know that the grouping system is what work and players want, not the lowly raiding system. And the casuals groupers, they really like to have an Anofalye that is doing PUGs all the time, it also allow them to dream and hope to reach the top of the grouping system if raiding is not present, and they can indeed be there, eventually.
I have to agree with Anofalye here. PoP did not kill immerssion at all. I think it sort of helped it a little bit, actually.
Anofalye I can tell has deep and extensive EQ 1 experience. It did create a game of groupers v. raiders. Or I like to say, community v. zerg raiders. As it is stated above, the casual EQ 1 person really got screwed in the game. Heh.
The raiding killed the community feel, atmosphere of EQ 1. It is really a sad thing, because I loved that game. The community guilds (or mine which was a community guild but raided at least twice a week) were forced to aggressively recruit to raid or to merge with a zerg guild. I have bitter memories and feelings to this DAY about it! Oh, well. I still play on here, which is very fun www.shardsofdalaya.com/intro_starting.htm
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Originally posted by truenorthbg I firmly believe if EQ 1 kept was was great - awesome and very fun GROUPING and small grouping dungeons- I believe tons of people would still play the game.
QFT. I believe EQ would have about 1 million subscribtions if they would have went the LDoN ways with no self restrain back then. And it would draw unhappy players about raiding away from WoW to it and prosper beyond the wildest wet dream Johny has.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Wasn't the travel part of the pleasure of this game? Going back to EQ's roots of boat rides and cross country treks to group up. Guess that crap didn't float for very long.
Heh. It didn't last long in EverQuest, either.
Any pretense of long travel times in EQ died with the Planes of Power expansion, whch introduced the Plane of Knowledge. The PoK was a central hub that had teleporters to pretty much every major zone in the game, so getting all the way across the world in EQ was ridiculously easy.
People who played EQ1 prior to Planes of Power, tend to forget that the most popular class was the
druid. They were Norrath's taxicab. People hated taking forever to cross the immense world so they
either became friends with druids and wizards or rolled one as an alt on a second account. The
most popular buff in the game was Spirt of the Wolf which allowed you to run around 40 percent faster
than you could normally get around. Even pre-Planes of Power, it was apparent in EQ that people
wanted to get around quickly and were willing to pay for the privilege to do so.
The next most popular class after druid was cleric. The cleric was popular for one reason. They
mitigated experience loss after a death. The level 39 rez (90 percent exp recovery) was the only
acceptable rez. People were willing to pay dearly for level 39+ clerics to come to their corpses to
rez them.
The next most popular class (post Planes of Power) was enchanter for KEI (fast mana regeneration).
People were willing to pay good coin and repeatedly, if necessary, for the buff.
This ought to tell you something about the game mechanics people want in a game. They want quick
and easy travel, they want minimal loss of experience in the event of a death. They want minimal
downtime between battles. In other words they want to spend their time productively.
What did Vanguard initially give us? A huge world with a relatively slow means of travel. Initially there
was an experience penalty/debt for dying, and nothing to reduce downtime between fights. Is it any
wonder that the initial Vanguard was viewed as hardcore ?
You just described a well designed functioning class system, where each class has value and is desired by others. EQ1 fostered an environment where you interacted with others originally. Planes of Powers started to destroy that interaction and community with the speedy travel times.
The PoP books enhanced interaction because you could actually find people in the game. The PoP flagging and raiding undermined interaction because you were not experiencing the world but logging, at specific times, three + times a week to raid the same content, kill the same targets, with the same people. The constant raiding with the same guild, and the same people killed community.
Yes. I totally agree with Anofalye. If EQ 1 remained a group and small group oriented game with the very interesting, challenging, and intricate dungeons, I would not need another MMO.
Btw, is anyone else lagging badly on this site today?
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Originally posted by truenorthbg I firmly believe if EQ 1 kept was was great - awesome and very fun GROUPING and small grouping dungeons- I believe tons of people would still play the game.
QFT. I believe EQ would have about 1 million subscribtions if they would have went the LDoN ways with no self restrain back then. And it would draw unhappy players about raiding away from WoW to it and prosper beyond the wildest wet dream Johny has.
You are contradicting previous statements you have made about quality game design. I have heard you say that soloing is the most important aspect of a quality game and that any MMOG that rejects soloing is doomed to fail. I agree with that belief also. So how can you say that soloing is important on the one hand, while promoting forced grouping as a good thing?
Shouldn't it be up to the players to decide wether they want to group or not? LDON was basically saying screw you soloers just like Planes of Power said screw you non-raiders.
LDON was a forced grouping dungeon expansion, the 2nd worst expansion next to Planes of Power. Those two expansions brought on the demise of EQ1.
Originally posted by truenorthbg I firmly believe if EQ 1 kept was was great - awesome and very fun GROUPING and small grouping dungeons- I believe tons of people would still play the game.
QFT. I believe EQ would have about 1 million subscribtions if they would have went the LDoN ways with no self restrain back then. And it would draw unhappy players about raiding away from WoW to it and prosper beyond the wildest wet dream Johny has.
You are contradicitng previous statements you have made about quality game design. I have heard you say that soloing is the most important aspect of a quality game and that any MMOG that rejects soloing is doomed to fail. I agree with that belief also. So how can you say that soloing is important on the one hand, while promoting forced grouping as a good thing?
Shouldn't it be up to the players to decide wether they want to group or not? LDON was basically saying screw you soloers just like Planes of Power said screw you non-raiders.
LDON was a forced grouping dungeon expansion, the 2nd worst expansion next to Planes of Power. Those two expansions brought on the demise of EQ1.
Well, that is a very difficult question. First, I am not sure if you are asking me, but I will presume you are.
Second, there is no question that the focus on raiding killed the EQ 1 community. In effect, killing EQ 1. You either could be a zerger or essentially not play the game.
Third, we mean today, right now, solo content is vital. It is as important as group and raid content. You must have solo content. Indeed, any MMO that does not provide interesting, engaging, challenging, and rewarding solo content will and probably should fail.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Part of the original vision of VG WAS long travel times.....but so was the Advanced Encounter System (AES).
It was actually one of the BIG and in IMO VITAL parts of the game. It was suppose to be one of the biggest attractions, allowing for classical EQ long-travel times, but made fun, adventurous, and enjoyable, destroying boredom and tedium.
They were both part of the vision.
Sadly, one made it into the game.....one did not. I'll leave you to guess which.
Apparently I'm one of the only people who actually followed vanguard before its beta release. I told people about this IN GAME, and they replied that they've never heard of such a thing and they had no idea it was part of the original vision. In fact, in every OOC channel I talked in on Florendyl, NO ONE knew what AES stood for, and NO ONE else knew they had planned to have a random encounter system as part of their game.
I guess all the hardcore followers of VG never played the game because of the inclusion of a mini-map.
Me: I wish they implemented AES, or at least do so SOON.
Everyone playing Vanguard: AES???????????????????????
Hardcore Players: A MINI-MAP!?!?!? THIS GAME IS CAREBEAR I QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!
I played VG for 3 months from release and finaly gave up, saw the light and cancelled my sub's. I did have high hopes for this one as I became bored with WOW's gameplay and was looking for a bit more depth. The major gripe's I had with the game was poor performance on my quad core, 8800gtx system, the memory leaks,poor content after level 20-25 and the travel time to group up. Have any of these been fixed ?
I've played since launch...daily and have seen big improvements.
I rarely crash..chunk crossings are minimal ( so much so that at times I don't even realize I crossed a chunk ). They are more like a lag spike now than the 10-20 complete stop in action like they used to be.
Content is more or less the same...which..for me...is alot !
My to-do list keeps getting longer and longer ..suggesting their is enough content to keep me busy for a very long time to come. I'm referring to the entire game ..not just adventure.
I would suggest waiting untill the servers merge and then coming back to see how it all works on your rig. A trial area will be set up relatively soon as well...allowing all yall to try before you buy.
Comments
Personally I'd give it a year or two and then may have at it. I had quite a bit of fun for a few months in EQII for a couple of months after The Fae expansion came out that must have been about 2 years after launch I guess.
Okay, I could give a rat's you know what about Brad's so called Vision. However, one thing I always admired about him (prior to Vanguard) was that he didn't give in to every whimsical "want" that the player base demanded. What people want at one time isn't always what they want at another. A good example of this would be PoP for Everquest. Yes, people were sick of the travel time and demanded that it be shortened. When it was, the very same people said that it "dumbed down the game" and that it "killed immersion". People really don't know what they want.
As far as Vanguard is concerned, the best thing they can do is fix the bugs. That in itself will bring people back.
I should mention, as a long time EQ 1 vet who still plays (sometimes as low as once a week), I liked PoP a lot.
I liked the grouping areas. I just did not like the flagging and raiding. Brad was not responsible for PoP; he did not develop it.
I firmly believe if EQ 1 kept was was great - awesome and very fun GROUPING and small grouping dungeons- I believe tons of people would still play the game.
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
PoP travels where a HUGE improvement on the game.
The peoples who complains about the immersion been killed are not the same peoples, they are the peoples who complains when the book-meditation was changed, when the hell levels where removed.
As other post, raiding is the bad thing that kills EQ. I really tried hard to like raiding. But, raiding is a FOREIGN GAMEPLAY and I absolutely, completely and totally hate it. I will never raid again and if raiders are better then me at anything outside of raiding, I am not playing whatever game which is that lame. Non-negociable. PvP is less offensive to me then this raiding trash. If some peoples like raiding, IF this is the case, fine, give them a server, differents stats that have no impact on grouping or whatever, but don't give them squat bonus VS groupers, cause if we bring it down to Groupers VS Raiders, we all know that the grouping system is what work and players want, not the lowly raiding system. And the casuals groupers, they really like to have an Anofalye that is doing PUGs all the time, it also allow them to dream and hope to reach the top of the grouping system if raiding is not present, and they can indeed be there, eventually.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Ah, I guess I didn't separate the two enough. I know Brad didn't develop PoP. I was just using it as an example of people not really knowing what they wanted. I never wanted PoP and when it came out I didn't like it. I never had a problem with traveling since I did in fact meet many friends that way.
With that said, I agree that VG needs more time. I would not play it in its current state, but will wait until their are more updates. Hopefully they can fix it up nicely because I too believed it had a lot of potential.
Edit: You say that they weren't the same people, but my experience was otherwise. Even people I knew had wanted it and when it came they loved it, but after awhile they started to complain. Anyway I guess it wasn't a good example since people's perspectives will be different.
I have to agree with Anofalye here. PoP did not kill immerssion at all. I think it sort of helped it a little bit, actually.
Anofalye I can tell has deep and extensive EQ 1 experience. It did create a game of groupers v. raiders. Or I like to say, community v. zerg raiders. As it is stated above, the casual EQ 1 person really got screwed in the game. Heh.
The raiding killed the community feel, atmosphere of EQ 1. It is really a sad thing, because I loved that game. The community guilds (or mine which was a community guild but raided at least twice a week) were forced to aggressively recruit to raid or to merge with a zerg guild. I have bitter memories and feelings to this DAY about it! Oh, well. I still play on here, which is very fun www.shardsofdalaya.com/intro_starting.htm
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Heh. It didn't last long in EverQuest, either.
Any pretense of long travel times in EQ died with the Planes of Power expansion, whch introduced the Plane of Knowledge. The PoK was a central hub that had teleporters to pretty much every major zone in the game, so getting all the way across the world in EQ was ridiculously easy.
People who played EQ1 prior to Planes of Power, tend to forget that the most popular class was the
druid. They were Norrath's taxicab. People hated taking forever to cross the immense world so they
either became friends with druids and wizards or rolled one as an alt on a second account. The
most popular buff in the game was Spirt of the Wolf which allowed you to run around 40 percent faster
than you could normally get around. Even pre-Planes of Power, it was apparent in EQ that people
wanted to get around quickly and were willing to pay for the privilege to do so.
The next most popular class after druid was cleric. The cleric was popular for one reason. They
mitigated experience loss after a death. The level 39 rez (90 percent exp recovery) was the only
acceptable rez. People were willing to pay dearly for level 39+ clerics to come to their corpses to
rez them.
The next most popular class (post Planes of Power) was enchanter for KEI (fast mana regeneration).
People were willing to pay good coin and repeatedly, if necessary, for the buff.
This ought to tell you something about the game mechanics people want in a game. They want quick
and easy travel, they want minimal loss of experience in the event of a death. They want minimal
downtime between battles. In other words they want to spend their time productively.
What did Vanguard initially give us? A huge world with a relatively slow means of travel. Initially there
was an experience penalty/debt for dying, and nothing to reduce downtime between fights. Is it any
wonder that the initial Vanguard was viewed as hardcore ?
You just described a well designed functioning class system, where each class has value and is desired by others. EQ1 fostered an environment where you interacted with others originally. Planes of Powers started to destroy that interaction and community with the speedy travel times.
Not at all.
The PoP books enhanced interaction because you could actually find people in the game. The PoP flagging and raiding undermined interaction because you were not experiencing the world but logging, at specific times, three + times a week to raid the same content, kill the same targets, with the same people. The constant raiding with the same guild, and the same people killed community.
Yes. I totally agree with Anofalye. If EQ 1 remained a group and small group oriented game with the very interesting, challenging, and intricate dungeons, I would not need another MMO.
Btw, is anyone else lagging badly on this site today?
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
QFT. I believe EQ would have about 1 million subscribtions if they would have went the LDoN ways with no self restrain back then.You are contradicting previous statements you have made about quality game design. I have heard you say that soloing is the most important aspect of a quality game and that any MMOG that rejects soloing is doomed to fail. I agree with that belief also. So how can you say that soloing is important on the one hand, while promoting forced grouping as a good thing?
Shouldn't it be up to the players to decide wether they want to group or not? LDON was basically saying screw you soloers just like Planes of Power said screw you non-raiders.
LDON was a forced grouping dungeon expansion, the 2nd worst expansion next to Planes of Power. Those two expansions brought on the demise of EQ1.
You are contradicitng previous statements you have made about quality game design. I have heard you say that soloing is the most important aspect of a quality game and that any MMOG that rejects soloing is doomed to fail. I agree with that belief also. So how can you say that soloing is important on the one hand, while promoting forced grouping as a good thing?
Shouldn't it be up to the players to decide wether they want to group or not? LDON was basically saying screw you soloers just like Planes of Power said screw you non-raiders.
LDON was a forced grouping dungeon expansion, the 2nd worst expansion next to Planes of Power. Those two expansions brought on the demise of EQ1.
Well, that is a very difficult question. First, I am not sure if you are asking me, but I will presume you are.
Second, there is no question that the focus on raiding killed the EQ 1 community. In effect, killing EQ 1. You either could be a zerger or essentially not play the game.
Third, we mean today, right now, solo content is vital. It is as important as group and raid content. You must have solo content. Indeed, any MMO that does not provide interesting, engaging, challenging, and rewarding solo content will and probably should fail.
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Part of the original vision of VG WAS long travel times.....but so was the Advanced Encounter System (AES).
It was actually one of the BIG and in IMO VITAL parts of the game. It was suppose to be one of the biggest attractions, allowing for classical EQ long-travel times, but made fun, adventurous, and enjoyable, destroying boredom and tedium.
They were both part of the vision.
Sadly, one made it into the game.....one did not. I'll leave you to guess which.
Apparently I'm one of the only people who actually followed vanguard before its beta release. I told people about this IN GAME, and they replied that they've never heard of such a thing and they had no idea it was part of the original vision. In fact, in every OOC channel I talked in on Florendyl, NO ONE knew what AES stood for, and NO ONE else knew they had planned to have a random encounter system as part of their game.
I guess all the hardcore followers of VG never played the game because of the inclusion of a mini-map.
Me: I wish they implemented AES, or at least do so SOON.
Everyone playing Vanguard: AES???????????????????????
Hardcore Players: A MINI-MAP!?!?!? THIS GAME IS CAREBEAR I QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!
I rarely crash..chunk crossings are minimal ( so much so that at times I don't even realize I crossed a chunk ). They are more like a lag spike now than the 10-20 complete stop in action like they used to be.
Content is more or less the same...which..for me...is alot !
My to-do list keeps getting longer and longer ..suggesting their is enough content to keep me busy for a very long time to come. I'm referring to the entire game ..not just adventure.
I would suggest waiting untill the servers merge and then coming back to see how it all works on your rig. A trial area will be set up relatively soon as well...allowing all yall to try before you buy.