Race never matters. You can make any job work with any race.
Wrong.
The second sentense isn't completely wrong, but race DO matter.
OP, if you wanna have a mix of different types of jobs (melee, mages, etc), play as Hume, or Elvaan as second choice. Humes are not best in anything, it's the "average in everything" race. If you wanna play any mage jobs, don't roll as Galka.
The player matters. Not the race. Using a race that has weaknesses in that job just means, that it takes more skill. Elvaan are basically the worst choice for Black Mages. Somehow, I have it at max level. Their lake of MP can make them difficult to use in mage jobs. But that doesn't mean you should go to another race to suit your job. You will be leveling more than one job. You pick what race you like best. Not by stats. It's you that has to look at that character all the time.
If you want to be the strongest melee and plan to stack Strength gear you'd choose Elvaan. If you want the most intelligence and largest MP pool for your black mage, choose Tarutaru. Finally, if you want the most rounded stats because you plan on leveling several different types jobs, Hume is a good choice.
Race does matter - period! It can be argued how much it matters, but saying it doesn't matter at all, is a pure lie, nothing less.
Some races are more ideal for certain jobs - but any race can play any job well. One of the best tanks I've ever grouped with was a Taru PAL/WAR. One of the best healers I've ever partied with was a Galka WHM/RDM. Race has an effect on the stats... but any race can play any job; it comes down to player skill and gear.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
This is the first time I've ever read or heard of someone saying ninja tanks aren't as useful post 50. Myself being a 75 NIN, WHM, RDM, WAR, RNG and many other jobs past 50 I can tell you, that saying ninjas get less effective past 50, is flat out wrong.
Yes, SE has said that ninja's weren't designed to be tanks, but that was a long time ago. SE has since embraced the idea that ninja's are considered tanks by the population. They have been given alot enmity+ gear over the years to help them hold hate better, as well as a few nerfs to help lower their 'awesomness' IE: Utsusemi nerf, Enmity loss when mob takes a shadow etc...
If you've partied with mainly lousy ninjas post 50, then i can see why you'd think paladins are better, and why you'd have this opinion. But there's no basis to saying they lose their effectiveness 50+.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
This is the first time I've ever read or heard of someone saying ninja tanks aren't as useful post 50. Myself being a 75 NIN, WHM, RDM, WAR, RNG and many other jobs past 50 I can tell you, that saying ninjas get less effective past 50, is flat out wrong.
Yes, SE has said that ninja's weren't designed to be tanks, but that was a long time ago. SE has since embraced the idea that ninja's are considered tanks by the population. They have been given alot enmity+ gear over the years to help them hold hate better, as well as a few nerfs to help lower their 'awesomness' IE: Utsusemi nerf, Enmity loss when mob takes a shadow etc...
If you've partied with mainly lousy ninjas post 50, then i can see why you'd think paladins are better, and why you'd have this opinion. But there's no basis to saying they lose their effectiveness 50+.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Well, again... like I said, it's all based on opinion and on personal experience. I've read entire forum threads where people insist that post-50 NINs lose their effectiveness. I've never seen anyone say they flat out suck. Just that they're not as effective.
But you know what.. this really brings to mind how nothing in FFXI is really an absolute black-or-white, right or wrong. I think you'd agree that alot of things in FFXI are situational.
- What are you fighting?
- How well/poorly equipped is the NIN/PAL?
- How skilled/experienced is the NIN/PAL?
And on and on...
So, while I refuse to believe that *every* NIN I've partied with post-50 has simply been a crappy player - esp. since in previous parties with them they had the mobs glued to them and did an excellent job - it could be that when we moved to other spots, they weren't as effective against the particular mobs we were fighting and a PAL would have been the better choice.
I remember reading as a general guideline at one point that for mobs that attack fast or use alot of AOEs, PAL are better, since they can burn through a NIN's shadows so quickly. For slower mobs and such, NIN are better. Something like that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
This is the first time I've ever read or heard of someone saying ninja tanks aren't as useful post 50. Myself being a 75 NIN, WHM, RDM, WAR, RNG and many other jobs past 50 I can tell you, that saying ninjas get less effective past 50, is flat out wrong.
Yes, SE has said that ninja's weren't designed to be tanks, but that was a long time ago. SE has since embraced the idea that ninja's are considered tanks by the population. They have been given alot enmity+ gear over the years to help them hold hate better, as well as a few nerfs to help lower their 'awesomness' IE: Utsusemi nerf, Enmity loss when mob takes a shadow etc...
If you've partied with mainly lousy ninjas post 50, then i can see why you'd think paladins are better, and why you'd have this opinion. But there's no basis to saying they lose their effectiveness 50+.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
This'll be the second time you see it then. I prefer PLD to NIN, any day.
To be the best, you must help each other become the best. FFXI Character: Satimasu FFXI Server: Valefor FFXIV Character: Tamorae Fonteil
Ninja tank versus Paladin tank is a loaded subject anyway since it depends heavily on level and party config.
Ninja sure can hold aggro and avoid some of the most nasty attacks but nope hate is not something he excels and he needs a hefty amount of money to actually work. Paladin on the other hand is in my opinion the most reliable from level 1-75 as far as tanking is concerned. The hate creation he can make is enormous and he can hold it even with major DD's on the field.
As far as I have seen and played paladin is a tank for every situation, ninja is a tank for specific mobs where it excels, warrior after 50 I rarely see tanking.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Nope. Doesn't quite add up with my experiences. People I've been meriting with, seems to just choose any of those, and a little majority has seemed to prefer PAL. Imo, both jobs works great at any lvl.
(For those who don't understand merits: "exp" parties when you are at max lvl, to earn points to increase stats)
About the SAM comments:
As a WHM I really hate having a SAM in the party. The reason is simple. Far too often they pull hate away from the tank, and they always take more damage than the tank. More healing = more mp consumption = more downtime. As WHM, I don't join parties anymore, if they have a SAM as main tank. In such parties it's common with full mp rests after each and every battle, which of course means damn slow progress.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Nope. Doesn't quite add up with my experiences. People I've been meriting with, seems to just choose any of those, and a little majority has seemed to prefer PAL. Imo, both jobs works great at any lvl.
(For those who don't understand merits: "exp" parties when you are at max lvl, to earn points to increase stats)
About the SAM comments:
As a WHM I really hate having a SAM in the party. The reason is simple. Far too often they pull hate away from the tank, and they always take more damage than the tank. More healing = more mp consumption = more downtime. As WHM, I don't join parties anymore, if they have a SAM as main tank. In such parties it's common with full mp rests after each and every battle, which of course means damn slow progress.
Ninjas are not just tanks, they are decent DD as well. A good merit pt will invite a ninja as tank anyday before a PLD. Of course pld can fill the role too. But the fact that merit mobs die in 20secs kinda make pld tanks obsolete in merit pts.
Nin = decent DD
Pld = Below avg DD
I've merited a ton and have prob partied with 1 pld for every 30 merit pts i get into. It's either a ninja tank or multiple warriors(subbing nin of course) bouncing hate.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Nope. Doesn't quite add up with my experiences. People I've been meriting with, seems to just choose any of those, and a little majority has seemed to prefer PAL. Imo, both jobs works great at any lvl.
(For those who don't understand merits: "exp" parties when you are at max lvl, to earn points to increase stats)
About the SAM comments:
As a WHM I really hate having a SAM in the party. The reason is simple. Far too often they pull hate away from the tank, and they always take more damage than the tank. More healing = more mp consumption = more downtime. As WHM, I don't join parties anymore, if they have a SAM as main tank. In such parties it's common with full mp rests after each and every battle, which of course means damn slow progress.
Ninjas are not just tanks, they are decent DD as well. A good merit pt will invite a ninja as tank anyday before a PLD. Of course pld can fill the role too. But the fact that merit mobs die in 20secs kinda make pld tanks obsolete in merit pts.
Nin = decent DD
Pld = Below avg DD
I've merited a ton and have prob partied with 1 pld for every 30 merit pts i get into. It's either a ninja tank or multiple warriors(subbing nin of course) bouncing hate.
That's the thing, a lot of jobs get left behind when it comes to merit parties. So, the whole tank thing goes out the window anyway. Since all they want are DMG with /NIN, RDM, and possibly a WHM, any other job just slows them down. As a BLM, I stopped getting invites after 71 and my wife who leveled BRD with me of course would almost always get melee burn invites. She of course had to turn them down cause, why would they want a stupid BLM? That would certainly only slow them down. Of course they're needed for endgame stuff, but they can just solo their 75 and merits before they can do that, since they cause too much downtime right?
NIN is a great DD, but I don't want a DD, I want a tank. I'll take my PLD.
To be the best, you must help each other become the best. FFXI Character: Satimasu FFXI Server: Valefor FFXIV Character: Tamorae Fonteil
Comments
Wrong.
The second sentense isn't completely wrong, but race DO matter.
OP, if you wanna have a mix of different types of jobs (melee, mages, etc), play as Hume, or Elvaan as second choice. Humes are not best in anything, it's the "average in everything" race. If you wanna play any mage jobs, don't roll as Galka.
The player matters. Not the race. Using a race that has weaknesses in that job just means, that it takes more skill. Elvaan are basically the worst choice for Black Mages. Somehow, I have it at max level. Their lake of MP can make them difficult to use in mage jobs. But that doesn't mean you should go to another race to suit your job. You will be leveling more than one job. You pick what race you like best. Not by stats. It's you that has to look at that character all the time.
Quote from http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Races :
If you want to be the strongest melee and plan to stack Strength gear you'd choose Elvaan. If you want the most intelligence and largest MP pool for your black mage, choose Tarutaru. Finally, if you want the most rounded stats because you plan on leveling several different types jobs, Hume is a good choice.
Race does matter - period! It can be argued how much it matters, but saying it doesn't matter at all, is a pure lie, nothing less.
Some races are more ideal for certain jobs - but any race can play any job well. One of the best tanks I've ever grouped with was a Taru PAL/WAR. One of the best healers I've ever partied with was a Galka WHM/RDM. Race has an effect on the stats... but any race can play any job; it comes down to player skill and gear.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
is Ninja good cause i heard that they suck
http://crazi-ville.myminicity.com/
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
k i wanted to try this game out and go thief/ninja thnx 4 clearing up a few stuff
http://crazi-ville.myminicity.com/
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
This is the first time I've ever read or heard of someone saying ninja tanks aren't as useful post 50. Myself being a 75 NIN, WHM, RDM, WAR, RNG and many other jobs past 50 I can tell you, that saying ninjas get less effective past 50, is flat out wrong.
Yes, SE has said that ninja's weren't designed to be tanks, but that was a long time ago. SE has since embraced the idea that ninja's are considered tanks by the population. They have been given alot enmity+ gear over the years to help them hold hate better, as well as a few nerfs to help lower their 'awesomness' IE: Utsusemi nerf, Enmity loss when mob takes a shadow etc...
If you've partied with mainly lousy ninjas post 50, then i can see why you'd think paladins are better, and why you'd have this opinion. But there's no basis to saying they lose their effectiveness 50+.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
This is the first time I've ever read or heard of someone saying ninja tanks aren't as useful post 50. Myself being a 75 NIN, WHM, RDM, WAR, RNG and many other jobs past 50 I can tell you, that saying ninjas get less effective past 50, is flat out wrong.
Yes, SE has said that ninja's weren't designed to be tanks, but that was a long time ago. SE has since embraced the idea that ninja's are considered tanks by the population. They have been given alot enmity+ gear over the years to help them hold hate better, as well as a few nerfs to help lower their 'awesomness' IE: Utsusemi nerf, Enmity loss when mob takes a shadow etc...
If you've partied with mainly lousy ninjas post 50, then i can see why you'd think paladins are better, and why you'd have this opinion. But there's no basis to saying they lose their effectiveness 50+.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
Well, again... like I said, it's all based on opinion and on personal experience. I've read entire forum threads where people insist that post-50 NINs lose their effectiveness. I've never seen anyone say they flat out suck. Just that they're not as effective.
But you know what.. this really brings to mind how nothing in FFXI is really an absolute black-or-white, right or wrong. I think you'd agree that alot of things in FFXI are situational.
- What are you fighting?
- How well/poorly equipped is the NIN/PAL?
- How skilled/experienced is the NIN/PAL?
And on and on...
So, while I refuse to believe that *every* NIN I've partied with post-50 has simply been a crappy player - esp. since in previous parties with them they had the mobs glued to them and did an excellent job - it could be that when we moved to other spots, they weren't as effective against the particular mobs we were fighting and a PAL would have been the better choice.
I remember reading as a general guideline at one point that for mobs that attack fast or use alot of AOEs, PAL are better, since they can burn through a NIN's shadows so quickly. For slower mobs and such, NIN are better. Something like that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ninjas are very good - esp. when played well. They're one of the more "busy" jobs in a battle - especially when tanking, what with having to keep blink up, enfeebling, etc. etc..
After a certain point, around level 50, they're not as effective as tanks. But I certainly wouldn't say they suck.
I'm curious why you think ninjas aren't as effective as tanks past level 50. A lousy ninja is just a horrible tank. But there's nothing better than a ninja that knows what he's doing and does it good. From level 37-75 a skilled ninja will tank better than a skilled paladin. Paladins have been getting a lot of buffs because of it, but ninjas are still better. Paladins do have the advantage of better hate control though, and that's where thieves help ninja tanks a lot.
Well the context of the conversation had been about tanks.. or at least part of it... so I was speaking in that context.
But to be clear, a good Ninja is always a good Ninja. However, after 50 or so, they seem to lose their efficacy as tanks.
Give me a good ninja from 37-75 over a good paladin any day. Most people would agree.
Well, your first statement is fine - your personal opinion/preference. I personally don't care which they are, as long as they're playing their job well. I don't get hung up on "what's the best party setup", because I've been in parties with very unconventional setups that have racked in xp faster than the "standard" ones I've been in.
Your second statement, though, is a generalization.
Most people I've met in the dunes lately would also agree that you need a powerleveler to get through the Dunes and Qufim and the Jungles even Garlaige - some to the point that they wouldn't pull a single mob unless/until a PL arrived. Fact is, you don't need a PL, ever, in this game... and never have.
Most people believed for a long time that Monk was a useless job - it isn't.
Hell.. most people believe NIN is intended to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it isn't. NIN tanking is something created entirely by the players.
Most people believe SAM wasn't designed to be a tank - by SE's own say-so, it was. I guess a SAM's ability to take hate so easily wasn't an accident.
Point is... what most people believe has turned out to be wrong in the past, so saying "most people would agree" isn't necessarily saying much. Especially when, in my experience, many of those "most people" I've asked why they thought that way couldn't give me an informed answer - they're just repeating what they read/heard.
And by the by... I've heard and read many times that post 50, NIN aren't as useful a tank... they would certainly disagree with you. So what does that mean? They have a different opinion and have probably had better experiences with PALs post-50 than they did NINs; the experience(s) have formed their opinion.
My experience is both NIN and PAL are good tanks if played well, however, NINs I've partied with seemed to have a harder time keeping hate post-50 than the PALs I've pt'd with.
This is the first time I've ever read or heard of someone saying ninja tanks aren't as useful post 50. Myself being a 75 NIN, WHM, RDM, WAR, RNG and many other jobs past 50 I can tell you, that saying ninjas get less effective past 50, is flat out wrong.
Yes, SE has said that ninja's weren't designed to be tanks, but that was a long time ago. SE has since embraced the idea that ninja's are considered tanks by the population. They have been given alot enmity+ gear over the years to help them hold hate better, as well as a few nerfs to help lower their 'awesomness' IE: Utsusemi nerf, Enmity loss when mob takes a shadow etc...
If you've partied with mainly lousy ninjas post 50, then i can see why you'd think paladins are better, and why you'd have this opinion. But there's no basis to saying they lose their effectiveness 50+.
And when you get to 75 and start to merit, if there' a paladin and a ninja seeking, the ninja will get the invite 99% of the time.
This'll be the second time you see it then. I prefer PLD to NIN, any day.
To be the best, you must help each other become the best.
FFXI Character: Satimasu
FFXI Server: Valefor
FFXIV Character: Tamorae Fonteil
Ninja tank versus Paladin tank is a loaded subject anyway since it depends heavily on level and party config.
Ninja sure can hold aggro and avoid some of the most nasty attacks but nope hate is not something he excels and he needs a hefty amount of money to actually work. Paladin on the other hand is in my opinion the most reliable from level 1-75 as far as tanking is concerned. The hate creation he can make is enormous and he can hold it even with major DD's on the field.
As far as I have seen and played paladin is a tank for every situation, ninja is a tank for specific mobs where it excels, warrior after 50 I rarely see tanking.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Nope. Doesn't quite add up with my experiences. People I've been meriting with, seems to just choose any of those, and a little majority has seemed to prefer PAL. Imo, both jobs works great at any lvl.
(For those who don't understand merits: "exp" parties when you are at max lvl, to earn points to increase stats)
About the SAM comments:
As a WHM I really hate having a SAM in the party. The reason is simple. Far too often they pull hate away from the tank, and they always take more damage than the tank. More healing = more mp consumption = more downtime. As WHM, I don't join parties anymore, if they have a SAM as main tank. In such parties it's common with full mp rests after each and every battle, which of course means damn slow progress.
Nope. Doesn't quite add up with my experiences. People I've been meriting with, seems to just choose any of those, and a little majority has seemed to prefer PAL. Imo, both jobs works great at any lvl.
(For those who don't understand merits: "exp" parties when you are at max lvl, to earn points to increase stats)
About the SAM comments:
As a WHM I really hate having a SAM in the party. The reason is simple. Far too often they pull hate away from the tank, and they always take more damage than the tank. More healing = more mp consumption = more downtime. As WHM, I don't join parties anymore, if they have a SAM as main tank. In such parties it's common with full mp rests after each and every battle, which of course means damn slow progress.
Ninjas are not just tanks, they are decent DD as well. A good merit pt will invite a ninja as tank anyday before a PLD. Of course pld can fill the role too. But the fact that merit mobs die in 20secs kinda make pld tanks obsolete in merit pts.
Nin = decent DD
Pld = Below avg DD
I've merited a ton and have prob partied with 1 pld for every 30 merit pts i get into. It's either a ninja tank or multiple warriors(subbing nin of course) bouncing hate.
Nope. Doesn't quite add up with my experiences. People I've been meriting with, seems to just choose any of those, and a little majority has seemed to prefer PAL. Imo, both jobs works great at any lvl.
(For those who don't understand merits: "exp" parties when you are at max lvl, to earn points to increase stats)
About the SAM comments:
As a WHM I really hate having a SAM in the party. The reason is simple. Far too often they pull hate away from the tank, and they always take more damage than the tank. More healing = more mp consumption = more downtime. As WHM, I don't join parties anymore, if they have a SAM as main tank. In such parties it's common with full mp rests after each and every battle, which of course means damn slow progress.
Ninjas are not just tanks, they are decent DD as well. A good merit pt will invite a ninja as tank anyday before a PLD. Of course pld can fill the role too. But the fact that merit mobs die in 20secs kinda make pld tanks obsolete in merit pts.
Nin = decent DD
Pld = Below avg DD
I've merited a ton and have prob partied with 1 pld for every 30 merit pts i get into. It's either a ninja tank or multiple warriors(subbing nin of course) bouncing hate.
That's the thing, a lot of jobs get left behind when it comes to merit parties. So, the whole tank thing goes out the window anyway. Since all they want are DMG with /NIN, RDM, and possibly a WHM, any other job just slows them down. As a BLM, I stopped getting invites after 71 and my wife who leveled BRD with me of course would almost always get melee burn invites. She of course had to turn them down cause, why would they want a stupid BLM? That would certainly only slow them down. Of course they're needed for endgame stuff, but they can just solo their 75 and merits before they can do that, since they cause too much downtime right?
NIN is a great DD, but I don't want a DD, I want a tank. I'll take my PLD.
To be the best, you must help each other become the best.
FFXI Character: Satimasu
FFXI Server: Valefor
FFXIV Character: Tamorae Fonteil