It seems to me that you are not listening at all. The points were just defined and none of your arguments were in counter to them. You just restated what you said originally.
One I like having other people around. That doesn't mean I want to group with them all the time.
Two there aren't many great single player RPGs available IMO. Hardly any are being produced at all these days. They also don't last very long. As mentioned the price would actually be greater to keep buying single player games then to pay a monthly fee even if there were enough single player RPGs available.
Three Building a unique character is great and all, but it's not why I play a MMORPG. There are many differnt reasons to play one and you seem to only want to see your side. It seems more people are on the side of wanting good quests/story above character cutimization. Also something to think about you say that creating a unique character goes hand in hand with MMOs yet you could get the same experience from a single player game. In fact you could more easily create a unique chararcter if there were no other people around so why pay a monthly fee?
To sum up there are many reasons people play MMOs that aren't sandbox.
So why play a non-sandbox game? All you do is pay a monthly fee for something you could get for free. I really don't get it. What do people think?
This one's easy to answer.... They play a non-sandbox game because they are interested in gaming with a group of friends (or even of just random other gamers, depending on the player), in an RPG-like environment. We're not yet at the point where it's very easy to do that outside of an MMO... you can do it but usually someone has to host a server, you have to open the right firewall ports, you all have to know to log in at a specific time, etc. On an MMO you can be in a large guild, log in whenever you feel like it, and there will be someone on to game with.
In such a case the "sandbox" features are largely irrelevant. People are looking for something fun to do with others over the internet.
So why play a non-sandbox game? All you do is pay a monthly fee for something you could get for free. I really don't get it. What do people think?
This one's easy to answer.... They play a non-sandbox game because they are interested in gaming with a group of friends (or even of just random other gamers, depending on the player), in an RPG-like environment. We're not yet at the point where it's very easy to do that outside of an MMO... you can do it but usually someone has to host a server, you have to open the right firewall ports, you all have to know to log in at a specific time, etc. On an MMO you can be in a large guild, log in whenever you feel like it, and there will be someone on to game with.
In such a case the "sandbox" features are largely irrelevant. People are looking for something fun to do with others over the internet.
C
I don't have any friends that like games so I enjoy being able to join pickup groups once in a while.
I agree with you that MMOGs have the potential to bring all the best elements of pen-and-paper RPGS (the ability to create your own worlds and make unique characters) into video games. However, my biggest problem with sandbox MMOGs is the lack of boundaries for players and lack of content created by professional devs.
First, let me address the boundary issue. Sand box games like EVE Online allow for you to both create your own cities, guilds, corporations, etc but also allow others to come in and destroy everything you've worked so hard to achieve. I'm sure there's a niche market of players who want the thrill of this kind of gameplay, but I'm also sure that many MMOG fans don't want to come back from a long weekend to find their guild hall destroyed, their bank account completely looted, and their characters left with only a loin cloth to wear. I love non-sandbox MMOGs precisely because I can put griefers on /ignore or simply move to a new zone if I'm playing on a WOW PVP server.
Even if a sandbox game doesn't allow free-for-all PVP, there's the problem of resolving conflicting player goals. Let's say I want to play Robin Hood and you want to play the Sheriff of Nottingham in a sandbox game. In a perfect game, Robin Hood would get the chance to rob some fat noblemen and the Sheriff would also get a chance to hunt Robin down and throw him in the dungeon from time to time. But human nature being what it is, both the Sheriff and the Robin Hood player are going to want to win all the time. You run into the problem that "sheriff" characters may be overpowered compared to the thief class. Or perhaps Robin Hood can play 40 hours a week and thus has totally pimped-out gear, while the Sheriff is a casual 10-20 hour a week player who'll never have a chance.
Having played SWG pre-CU, I observed a lot of playground politics of "I shot you!" "no you didn't!" "uh huh I did shoot you, I'm a jedi and I always win!" "well I'm taking my ball and going home then." I saw rebel smugglers who couldn't compete with the overpowered imperial bounty hunters simply refuse to flag for PVP. Then the imperials began to get sneaky - one of them got elected to mayor and began "rezoning" buildings of political enemies like the smugglers. All in all, I saw way too much drama and not enough game mechanics to resolve player issues.
Finally, let me address dev-created content versus player content. Yes, I recognize talented players can create content that surpasses anything the devs could come up with. I also recognize some players are professional game designers at work, or want to break into the business and therefore create high quality content. But I'd personally rather go see the Red Sox play rather than my co-workers' softball team, and the same holds true in a video game. Also, dev-created content can be accessed at any time while players get to put any restrictions they like on their content. All I need is to get 4 other people together and I can go run Underbog or Slave Pens in WOW. In SWG, I was often told I couldn't join in roleplaying or community events because "I wasn't committed enough." In other words, I didn't put in 40+ hours a week to be a "committed" roleplayer.
Oh dude, because creating a unique player created content driven player o matic quest is not what I care about. Not a bit, not a tiny tiny tiny little bit.
Ok, my MMORPG-motivation evening, as an example for many many others, for total dumbsters.
1 "oh boy, long day, lets log in and see what's going on"
2 "Guild: Hey Meridion; I: Hey, what's up, anyone up for [quest/dungeon/event i left the evening before]; Guildie: Sure let's team up"
3 "Teaming up with guildies, going for encounter xy, chit chatting bout the newest Die HArd movie on the way, concentrate while cutting through hordes of generic evil monsters"
4 "Getting some "Whoa"moment at the endboss and a nice drop"
5 "Saying farewell to my guildies, going to an Inn do a little roleplay about whatever aspect of lore there is in our hypthetical game"
5 "Logging off, happy to try out my new drop tomorrow"
Do YOU see anything that is REMOTELY related to "creating unique player based wtf roxxor items/cities/mechanics"... No? - Maybe that is because it isn't there.
I play MMOs like other people play Volleyball in the evening. I do not have to invent new rules for Volleyball with my team, try out new nets or new balls every time we play or change the field every monday evening... GOT IT NOW? I just wanna play a friggin game with friends...
Meridion, you have completely summed up what I love about having something pre-made to do versus having to create/maintain my own content.
I think it's a problem of perception. Sandbox games promise you the chance to "do whatever you want, build your own cities, compete with others in an open environment, etc" but you still run into the same problem as non-sandbox MMOGs. In PVP, the guy with better gear and more time played is likely going to beat you. In a non-sandbox game, this only means you lose the PVP match or have to rez back at town. In a sandbox game, at best this means your hopes at carving out your own little corner are stymied. At worst, losing in sandbox PVP equals total disaster. Even the PVE requirements of a sandbox game can be just as brutal as any raiding guild, only instead of logging on to farm some stupid red dragon you're logging on to run harvesters, check shop inventory, attend mandatory town council mettings, etc.
I just don't understand why people play MMOs that could be single player games. Why don't people just play single player games and avoid the monthly fee? I just don't get why people feel like if the game isn't scripted then it's not worth their time. There are so many great single player RPGs out there that provide a rich and awesome experience that don't require a monthly fee.
First, your premise that MMOs "could be single player games" is questionable, as well as empty.
Second, your dichotomy is false, in that people can play single player games as well as multiplayer games. I own many single player games, as well as play multiplayer games.
Third, you will pay more if you stick to single player games. I do. My WoW subscription consumes less of my disposable income annually than what I spend on single player games at 50$ a pop.
Fourth, your implication that single player games are more unique and less scripted and confining than multiplayer games is false. All games are bounded. The most popular games in the history of mankind are the most bounded, such as poker, chess, and checkers.
Your difficulty in "understanding" is now made clear. You are creating false dichotomies, based on false premises, in the context of false notions of the boundedness of games.
I will try and make it a simple thing for you to understand. A Sandbox MMO expects me and the other players to determine the fun and or create that fun. Well, I must tell you that half if not the majority of the people in these sandbox games do not know what fun is to ME. So, I am then forced to try and create my own fun. Not something I want to do when I play a game. I am there to play a game tailored to a type of game experience that I enjoy. And likewise, those other players around me, they more than likely enjoy the same things I do if they are playing what I am. As for your why not play single player? Well, most single player games have a single outcome, and or do not have the ability to chance the scenario each time through. That dynamic is found when players take on some of the roles of AI. I really enjoy a Balders Gate game experience, but I get more enjoyment out of a group experience in an MMO.
I feel that when someone chooses an MMO they are looking for like minded gamers to share an experience with. Some want a more tailored experience, be it a storyline to be a part of, or simply the comradre(sp?) of working with others to complete a goal. While there are obvious many others who want to be the designers of fun and look for that type of experience.
Its the backbone of the communities found on these forums and throughout the internet. Its the desire to do something with people you generally do not have access to daily, however share similar goals and or hobbies.
My question to you is, Why do I have to choose one or the other? Why can I not enjoy all types of gaming?
Comments
It seems to me that you are not listening at all. The points were just defined and none of your arguments were in counter to them. You just restated what you said originally.
One I like having other people around. That doesn't mean I want to group with them all the time.
Two there aren't many great single player RPGs available IMO. Hardly any are being produced at all these days. They also don't last very long. As mentioned the price would actually be greater to keep buying single player games then to pay a monthly fee even if there were enough single player RPGs available.
Three Building a unique character is great and all, but it's not why I play a MMORPG. There are many differnt reasons to play one and you seem to only want to see your side. It seems more people are on the side of wanting good quests/story above character cutimization. Also something to think about you say that creating a unique character goes hand in hand with MMOs yet you could get the same experience from a single player game. In fact you could more easily create a unique chararcter if there were no other people around so why pay a monthly fee?
To sum up there are many reasons people play MMOs that aren't sandbox.
I played offline for 2 years and had a great time.
This one's easy to answer.... They play a non-sandbox game because they are interested in gaming with a group of friends (or even of just random other gamers, depending on the player), in an RPG-like environment. We're not yet at the point where it's very easy to do that outside of an MMO... you can do it but usually someone has to host a server, you have to open the right firewall ports, you all have to know to log in at a specific time, etc. On an MMO you can be in a large guild, log in whenever you feel like it, and there will be someone on to game with.
In such a case the "sandbox" features are largely irrelevant. People are looking for something fun to do with others over the internet.
C
This one's easy to answer.... They play a non-sandbox game because they are interested in gaming with a group of friends (or even of just random other gamers, depending on the player), in an RPG-like environment. We're not yet at the point where it's very easy to do that outside of an MMO... you can do it but usually someone has to host a server, you have to open the right firewall ports, you all have to know to log in at a specific time, etc. On an MMO you can be in a large guild, log in whenever you feel like it, and there will be someone on to game with.
In such a case the "sandbox" features are largely irrelevant. People are looking for something fun to do with others over the internet.
C
I don't have any friends that like games so I enjoy being able to join pickup groups once in a while.
@ the OP:
I agree with you that MMOGs have the potential to bring all the best elements of pen-and-paper RPGS (the ability to create your own worlds and make unique characters) into video games. However, my biggest problem with sandbox MMOGs is the lack of boundaries for players and lack of content created by professional devs.
First, let me address the boundary issue. Sand box games like EVE Online allow for you to both create your own cities, guilds, corporations, etc but also allow others to come in and destroy everything you've worked so hard to achieve. I'm sure there's a niche market of players who want the thrill of this kind of gameplay, but I'm also sure that many MMOG fans don't want to come back from a long weekend to find their guild hall destroyed, their bank account completely looted, and their characters left with only a loin cloth to wear. I love non-sandbox MMOGs precisely because I can put griefers on /ignore or simply move to a new zone if I'm playing on a WOW PVP server.
Even if a sandbox game doesn't allow free-for-all PVP, there's the problem of resolving conflicting player goals. Let's say I want to play Robin Hood and you want to play the Sheriff of Nottingham in a sandbox game. In a perfect game, Robin Hood would get the chance to rob some fat noblemen and the Sheriff would also get a chance to hunt Robin down and throw him in the dungeon from time to time. But human nature being what it is, both the Sheriff and the Robin Hood player are going to want to win all the time. You run into the problem that "sheriff" characters may be overpowered compared to the thief class. Or perhaps Robin Hood can play 40 hours a week and thus has totally pimped-out gear, while the Sheriff is a casual 10-20 hour a week player who'll never have a chance.
Having played SWG pre-CU, I observed a lot of playground politics of "I shot you!" "no you didn't!" "uh huh I did shoot you, I'm a jedi and I always win!" "well I'm taking my ball and going home then." I saw rebel smugglers who couldn't compete with the overpowered imperial bounty hunters simply refuse to flag for PVP. Then the imperials began to get sneaky - one of them got elected to mayor and began "rezoning" buildings of political enemies like the smugglers. All in all, I saw way too much drama and not enough game mechanics to resolve player issues.
Finally, let me address dev-created content versus player content. Yes, I recognize talented players can create content that surpasses anything the devs could come up with. I also recognize some players are professional game designers at work, or want to break into the business and therefore create high quality content. But I'd personally rather go see the Red Sox play rather than my co-workers' softball team, and the same holds true in a video game. Also, dev-created content can be accessed at any time while players get to put any restrictions they like on their content. All I need is to get 4 other people together and I can go run Underbog or Slave Pens in WOW. In SWG, I was often told I couldn't join in roleplaying or community events because "I wasn't committed enough." In other words, I didn't put in 40+ hours a week to be a "committed" roleplayer.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Oh dude, because creating a unique player created content driven player o matic quest is not what I care about. Not a bit, not a tiny tiny tiny little bit.
Ok, my MMORPG-motivation evening, as an example for many many others, for total dumbsters.
1 "oh boy, long day, lets log in and see what's going on"
2 "Guild: Hey Meridion; I: Hey, what's up, anyone up for [quest/dungeon/event i left the evening before]; Guildie: Sure let's team up"
3 "Teaming up with guildies, going for encounter xy, chit chatting bout the newest Die HArd movie on the way, concentrate while cutting through hordes of generic evil monsters"
4 "Getting some "Whoa"moment at the endboss and a nice drop"
5 "Saying farewell to my guildies, going to an Inn do a little roleplay about whatever aspect of lore there is in our hypthetical game"
5 "Logging off, happy to try out my new drop tomorrow"
Do YOU see anything that is REMOTELY related to "creating unique player based wtf roxxor items/cities/mechanics"... No? - Maybe that is because it isn't there.
I play MMOs like other people play Volleyball in the evening. I do not have to invent new rules for Volleyball with my team, try out new nets or new balls every time we play or change the field every monday evening... GOT IT NOW? I just wanna play a friggin game with friends...
Geeez,
Meridion
Meridion, you have completely summed up what I love about having something pre-made to do versus having to create/maintain my own content.
I think it's a problem of perception. Sandbox games promise you the chance to "do whatever you want, build your own cities, compete with others in an open environment, etc" but you still run into the same problem as non-sandbox MMOGs. In PVP, the guy with better gear and more time played is likely going to beat you. In a non-sandbox game, this only means you lose the PVP match or have to rez back at town. In a sandbox game, at best this means your hopes at carving out your own little corner are stymied. At worst, losing in sandbox PVP equals total disaster. Even the PVE requirements of a sandbox game can be just as brutal as any raiding guild, only instead of logging on to farm some stupid red dragon you're logging on to run harvesters, check shop inventory, attend mandatory town council mettings, etc.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
First, your premise that MMOs "could be single player games" is questionable, as well as empty.
Second, your dichotomy is false, in that people can play single player games as well as multiplayer games. I own many single player games, as well as play multiplayer games.
Third, you will pay more if you stick to single player games. I do. My WoW subscription consumes less of my disposable income annually than what I spend on single player games at 50$ a pop.
Fourth, your implication that single player games are more unique and less scripted and confining than multiplayer games is false. All games are bounded. The most popular games in the history of mankind are the most bounded, such as poker, chess, and checkers.
Your difficulty in "understanding" is now made clear. You are creating false dichotomies, based on false premises, in the context of false notions of the boundedness of games.
I will try and make it a simple thing for you to understand. A Sandbox MMO expects me and the other players to determine the fun and or create that fun. Well, I must tell you that half if not the majority of the people in these sandbox games do not know what fun is to ME. So, I am then forced to try and create my own fun. Not something I want to do when I play a game. I am there to play a game tailored to a type of game experience that I enjoy. And likewise, those other players around me, they more than likely enjoy the same things I do if they are playing what I am. As for your why not play single player? Well, most single player games have a single outcome, and or do not have the ability to chance the scenario each time through. That dynamic is found when players take on some of the roles of AI. I really enjoy a Balders Gate game experience, but I get more enjoyment out of a group experience in an MMO.
I feel that when someone chooses an MMO they are looking for like minded gamers to share an experience with. Some want a more tailored experience, be it a storyline to be a part of, or simply the comradre(sp?) of working with others to complete a goal. While there are obvious many others who want to be the designers of fun and look for that type of experience.
Its the backbone of the communities found on these forums and throughout the internet. Its the desire to do something with people you generally do not have access to daily, however share similar goals and or hobbies.
My question to you is, Why do I have to choose one or the other? Why can I not enjoy all types of gaming?