Don't drag skill-based into this. You still have to work to increase your skills, and there are still enemies out there that are way too tough for a low-skill characater vs. a high-skill one. You may be able to adventure together, but can you actually contribute? (Besides, the difference is mostly cosmetic: Mathematically, I could come up with a formula to assign any skill-based character a "level" by adding up skill points and weighting them. This would be indistinguishable from a level-based game that allows a high degree of customization.)
Oh...but I will drag skill based into this because its the system that makes ME feel like I can just play the game, and not worry about keeping up.
In UO, even if my skills were lower than someone, when we aventured, I healed with bandages or spells while the other fought. It did not matter how much I was healing as long as I was giving back a little. I also was a blacksmith and while that may have been higher than my fighting skills I was able to contribute good quality armor for my friends as well as myself.
So to answer your question, hell yes I was able to contribute, at any an all times. This I could never say about any level based game.
I never feel pressured to do anything in an MMO. I believe that part of the point of a "virtual world" like MMOs is to get out of it what you want. My friends are busier than I am, so level slower, they have kids. I usually play alot of alts to enjoy the various aspects of the game. If I join a guild, I have researched it, and I know their attitudes. Thusly, I would never join a guild that puts constant pressure on their members to reach endgame.
Leveling at a pace that is not your choice makes the game lose its entertainment value and become work. And I play for fun, not for work. I do what I want, when I want. That's one of the most basic things that makes MMORPGs interesting, you arent stuck in a linear storyline. Don't get me wrong, I love a good storyline. I just like to advance it when I feel like it, not because I have to.
And I don't feel in competition with anyone else to level, I mean whats the point. Who can get the to the end first and stand around doing the same endgame content or PvP over and over? That doesn't appeal at all.
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Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
I agree a lot of games today you do feel forced to level a lot and therefore dont ahve the chance to 'Enjoy' the game properly.
Now i play EvE and i will start by saying it doesant force yu to spend most of your time leveling as this is more or less automatic and has nothing to do with what you do in eve. You see in order to use ships and stuff you need the right skills to do so. Now you can learn ANY skill in game as there are no class limitations at all. So for example i wanted to learn a skill like Battlecruiser level 1 so i can fly a battlecruiser After i get the skills that the Battlecruiser skill needs to be learnt i can click on the battlecruiser skill and ill be presented with a time it will take to learn it at level 1 [all skills haVE 5 LEVELS]. In this case 21 minuites and 12 seconds. The moment i click to learn it [and you can stop and lean a different skil instead wihtout losing the % you have learn it] The skill timer starts counting down.
So while this is ahppening i can have fun by doing things such as hunting NPC's For loot and cash or going out to see the sites such as the fabled 'Monolith' from 2001 a space oddesey. Also it leavs me free to socialise and soon to walk around the station and do buisness with fellow POD pilots in the local cafe.
And thats one reasoon i like eve its skill system means i dont have to spend hours to be able to get that gear or to compete in PvP. Of course because of this set skill learning time Eve can be a bit slow paced till you have begun to get a good set of skills. So expect it to take 2-3 months before you begine to get any good at PvP and about a month before you are good at Questing in eve [they are called missions BTW].
So my advice is do the tutorial at least once [this can take a few hours im told]. Then find a good corp thats willing to help you learn [can be hard for some but usually its not too hard to find the right corp].
I think another way to ease the pressure of leveling is games where high and low level toons can interact. In City of Heroes/Villains, you can sidekick a low-level toon up to group with a vet or the vet can exemplar down to team with his newbie friend. EQ2 has a similar system with mentoring, so that established high-level players have a way to play with their lower level friends.
That of course helps to lessen the pressue to level up so you can play with your buddy that's been playing since release.
Ya i've feel that way most of the time. Infact, LOTRO and Vanguard were the only MMOs I played where i didnt want to level asap. I didnt feel the need to or anything. Ironically (and this wasnt the reason for my playstyle) both of those games have no end game
This "level-fast-or-die" way of thinking flat out sucks. I'm guilty of it too though. Thats why I like sandbox games and non-level-based games. You set your own goals and you dont feel forced to level fast.
Ugh, I always feel pressured in WoW, especially when i see forumers saying "lvl 70, played for a week" I'm only lvl 20 and I've had it more than a month. This is a good idea though, i will take my time! But seriously, thanks, In all 8 MMO's i've played, that pressure was always there.
I also think that levels are an inadequate system of judging someone experienc out of game. Maybe someone is lvl 5, but they have payed close attention to EVERYTHING, and they actually know more than a lvl 70 who got there in 2 days.
Don't drag skill-based into this. You still have to work to increase your skills, and there are still enemies out there that are way too tough for a low-skill characater vs. a high-skill one. You may be able to adventure together, but can you actually contribute? (Besides, the difference is mostly cosmetic: Mathematically, I could come up with a formula to assign any skill-based character a "level" by adding up skill points and weighting them. This would be indistinguishable from a level-based game that allows a high degree of customization.)
Oh...but I will drag skill based into this because its the system that makes ME feel like I can just play the game, and not worry about keeping up.
In UO, even if my skills were lower than someone, when we aventured, I healed with bandages or spells while the other fought. It did not matter how much I was healing as long as I was giving back a little. I also was a blacksmith and while that may have been higher than my fighting skills I was able to contribute good quality armor for my friends as well as myself.
So to answer your question, hell yes I was able to contribute, at any an all times. This I could never say about any level based game.
Right ... a blacksmith in a level-based game can contribute in exactly the same way. So can a low-level healer, for that matter. Sounds like EQ is the only level-based game you've played. Hard-coded level restrictions on grouping are no longer the norm, whether through mentor-type mechanics (CoH, EQ2) or by just letting people group and take their chances (WoW).
You might try seeing what's out there before passing judgment.
Hero's Journey is going to offer dynamic instances that scale to the level and size of the group. So if you wanted to solo a dungeon then you could. It would have fewer enemies and probably less treasure but you wouldn't need a group to go through it. But if you wanted to go through it as a group then it would scale to that as well.
I think that's great for the PvE portion of the game. I don't know about you but it doesn't make me feel pressured to level fast because I know that I won't have to keep up with anyone just so I can do an instance. I hate not being able to go through dungeons because I can't find a group or because my guild doesn't want to do it. I should be able to solo a dungeon and this game would allow me to do so. I can play the game at my own pace knowing that I don't NEED anyone else to help me with anything.
Now obviously that doesn't solve the PvP problem. PvP lovers are still going to power level but at least the game will have normal, PvP and role playing servers.
Anyone else have a similar prob? Or don't see it as a prob, and its just the way these games are made?
Little bit, but the main problem is that so many MMORPG's doesn't really have any other goals than leveling. It's really hard enjoy game, when it's all about leveling. If MMORPG would not have levels, then maybe there could be other goals, what would feel good enough to give reason to play the game. Example many time beloging good "guild" what has other reasons to be there, helps a lot.
As suggested by others, the fact that a game has levels is the heart off the problem. It encourages you to level up as quickly as you can because you're best skills and powers come once you achieve said levels.
I remember playing DAOC on their FFA PVP server, you had to level up to 50 as quickly as you could, because you were pretty much just fodder to anyone who was 3 levels or more higher than yourself... (esp if you were a caster)
With WOW, same problem, can't do the raiding end game unless you are level 70, heck, entire guilds form that only permit people within a few levels of the top to even join them.
Contrast that with a skill based game, you can focus your training on a few skills, so that you are the best at them, and it removes the pressure (somewhat) to work so hard at "leveling".
However, if a game increases your skills based on how much time you play (or exercise them), then you really fall into the same trap. You'll want to log on and "train" constantly, just to get the next 'level' of skill.
EVE has the best skill system (IMO) of any game... skills train in real time, they can be trained all the time, whether you are on-line or not, and nothing you do can speed up the process. (other than buy some implants and what not) Also important is that skills have a definite cap that is quite reachable by all players, so that veterans can't get so far ahead forever that new players can't catch up in a reasonable time.
Now, for people who 'like' to be rewarded for the time they spend in game vs the more casual player, EVE's system is a nightmare, but for people who like to take the pressure off of leveling/training, EVE's system is the best out there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I enjoy crafting, exploring, merchant aspects as well as stuff like fishing etc.
I get there eventually, but I usually know more about the details of the game than any of my guildies. I am the one that everyone asks, "what does this item do?" or "where do I go to start quest X?"
Originally posted by Tutu2 Really I dunno what I am gonna do with myself lol I am never gonna enjoy MMOs if I keep doing this. Anyone else have a similar prob? Or don't see it as a prob, and its just the way these games are made?
These are not board games or card games that you "win". These are a form of recreation, like watching television, taking a walk through a scenic area, or reading a book.
You don't "win" by taping your television show then watching it on fast forward. So it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with perspective.
I always form my own guild, and my guild always has only two people in it. Me, and my wife. We then proceed to play the game at our own pace, typically playing several alternate characters (I have 7, she has 5, in WoW), getting heavily into crafting, making much of our own stuff, pursuing our secondary skills, and settling into a duo that becomes our favorite.
Eventually our favorite duo tops out. At that point we form an alliance with some other guild and do raids and such as we see fit, at our own pace. We generally stick with an MMO for four to six years at a stretch, and don't switch around to the "MMO du jour" or get a boner over every "beta" offer that comes along.
The perception problem comes from various myths that attach to MMO. Greatest among these is that they are "social" games where "grouping" is important and people "help" each other. No, they're not really, it's not really, and they don't. It's like being on the beach. It's fun when you're on the beach surrounded by other people engaged in a common pastime. But you don't hook up with seventeen other strangers and all swim together.
Guilds fundamentally want to exploit you. They want you to be a certain (guild needed) class, a certain (guild needed) level, with a certain (guild needed) tradeskill. No matter how "nice" your guild is, you are just one insect in the hive. The hive queen will ignore you if you don't serve the hive. It's a form of communism.
For a healthy experience, you should exploit other guilds, as I do. They have their goals, you have yours, when both your goals coincide then that's good. When they don't, screw them. You are the one paying the money, you're paying it for your own enjoyment, so enjoy!
As long as there will be levels and an end game where you must spend as much time online at max lvl as possible to better your character, the pressure to level will be there for most people.
My addiction History: >> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore >> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual >> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
Originally posted by Carufin The perception problem comes from various myths that attach to MMO. Greatest among these is that they are "social" games where "grouping" is important and people "help" each other. No, they're not really, it's not really, and they don't. It's like being on the beach. It's fun when you're on the beach surrounded by other people engaged in a common pastime. But you don't hook up with seventeen other strangers and all swim together. Guilds fundamentally want to exploit you. They want you to be a certain (guild needed) class, a certain (guild needed) level, with a certain (guild needed) tradeskill. No matter how "nice" your guild is, you are just one insect in the hive. The hive queen will ignore you if you don't serve the hive. It's a form of communism. For a healthy experience, you should exploit other guilds, as I do. They have their goals, you have yours, when both your goals coincide then that's good. When they don't, screw them. You are the one paying the money, you're paying it for your own enjoyment, so enjoy!
Actually, MMOGs can be social if the players are social people. You, very obviously, are not.
I have been in exploitative guilds, but also some very friendly ones. So when you say the friendly ones do not exist, I have to call shenanigans. It helps when the game is not so focused on the top levels -- CoX, for instance, has guild mechanics that encourage supergroups to invite lower level characters and be nice to them. It also has very little in terms of end content, which suits me just fine.
More end content makes people less likely to enjoy the best parts of the game. An alt-friendly game with high replay value is bound to have more staying power.
Originally posted by Hexxeity Actually, MMOGs can be social if the players are social people. You, very obviously, are not. ... So when you say the friendly ones do not exist, I have to call shenanigans.
Heh heh, my opinion on guilds has no bearing on my being social or not. Unless you want to define "social" as meaning "belongs to a guild". Which would be both a bad definition, and bad logic.
Then there's the fact that I never said that "friendly [guilds] don't exist", what I said was no matter how nice your guild may be, the bottom line is that you serve the needs of the guild. Thus, you may feel pressured to level faster than you prefer, which is the topic of this thread.
Reading is fundamental, and if you wish to have a conversation with yourself, you needn't employ a public forum.
My wife and I run around with an assorted group of people from various guilds on a daily basis. The fact that we all have different guild tags, and that my guild only contains two people, says nothing as to our level of sociability lol! If you ever decide to address my points, instead of slandering my character and pretending I've said things that I haven't, perhaps we can continue this conversation!
Originally posted by Omega3
As long as there will be levels and an end game where you must spend as much time online at max lvl as possible to better your character, the pressure to level will be there for most people.
Everyone levels. You've left out the relevant component of "time". If you want to max out in one month, you'll be under pressure. If you just play the game and reach endgame when you get there, which you will, you won't feel pressure.
Like heck I do. Mostly in the MMO's I played with my real life friends, such as LoTRO now. They're blowing through content. They're about 10 levels ahead of me now and I just can't keep up. During the weekends they attempt to power level me through dozens of quests they have already done. I have no idea what's going on or what quests I am doing. I have gotten bored out of my mind and now I don't even have any quests my level to solo, they kind of broke my character. I can't progress without them taking me through much higher level quests or grinding.
FF11 is a bit different though, that is a MMO where it is ok to do what it takes to level up as fast as possible. You don't necessarily miss out on anything, since once you get to 75 there is a VERY good chance you will still need to come back to do what you didn't do originally. Quests and missions don't level you in FF11, it's just a party based grind to 75 and once you get there that's one objective out of the way.
Don't drag skill-based into this. You still have to work to increase your skills, and there are still enemies out there that are way too tough for a low-skill characater vs. a high-skill one. You may be able to adventure together, but can you actually contribute? (Besides, the difference is mostly cosmetic: Mathematically, I could come up with a formula to assign any skill-based character a "level" by adding up skill points and weighting them. This would be indistinguishable from a level-based game that allows a high degree of customization.)
Oh...but I will drag skill based into this because its the system that makes ME feel like I can just play the game, and not worry about keeping up.
In UO, even if my skills were lower than someone, when we aventured, I healed with bandages or spells while the other fought. It did not matter how much I was healing as long as I was giving back a little. I also was a blacksmith and while that may have been higher than my fighting skills I was able to contribute good quality armor for my friends as well as myself.
So to answer your question, hell yes I was able to contribute, at any an all times. This I could never say about any level based game.
Right ... a blacksmith in a level-based game can contribute in exactly the same way. So can a low-level healer, for that matter. Sounds like EQ is the only level-based game you've played. Hard-coded level restrictions on grouping are no longer the norm, whether through mentor-type mechanics (CoH, EQ2) or by just letting people group and take their chances (WoW).
You might try seeing what's out there before passing judgment.
Obviously my Xfire sig doesn't stand out enough, please click on it and view my profile. You will be glad to see all the various level based games I have played, as well as skill based. You too may want to do some research before passing judgement.
As of right now EVE and Ryzom (Skill based) are the only two games I have played a considerable amount of time on. EQ2 I played quite a bit, until my friends advanced faster than I, and shortly after I gave up on trying to keep up. EQ2 has a nice mentoring system, but the issue was that higher level friends wanted to keep going higher and had very little interest in coming down to my level and playing for no experience. So the mentoring system was a step in a good direction, but it was no were close to providing a solution.
I am currently playing CoV, and the only reason I am is solely for the Lackey/Malfactor system. Not only can I level down, but the lower levels friends I have can come up to my level, and still advance with me. If it wasn't for this system, I would have no interest in CoV. So mechanics are in place to help, but you have no need for any of these gimics if you played a skill based game like UO, Ryzom or EVE. Never once in any skill based game did I ever feel pressured, only pressure I ever felt was during PvP battles.
I like the idea of a game without levels, but I wonder how you would make character advancement worthwhile.
In a level based game there are always new areas to explore that you couldn't go to before since you would have been killed by the creatures there.
There are also a lot of new skills to learn per level which makes you character feel like hes really progressing. Considering there are 60 levels in WoW and you get about a number of new abilities every other level thats a lot of character proggression.
The question is how would you make exploring new areas worthwhile when you can go anywhere at level 1?
How would you make the character feel like it's really proggressing when you don't get that many new abilities if any.
I believe you could accomplish the second by adding new abiilties every so often and perhaps having differnt skills open up after you master one skill. Say you master swords then perhaps you could master a certain type of sword which also brings new abilities.
The first problem is a bit trickier to tackle. I guess you could make certain areas filled with more skilled creatures just like you would level based areas with higher level creatures. The differnce being your current skill would deciede if you could win or lose and not your level.
Overall I could live without levels, but it would be harder for the devs to create a world that keeps the players interest IMO. There isn't the cookie being dangled like in a level based system. There isn't that desire to get to next level so you can have this ability or go to this place.
I like the idea of a game without levels, but I wonder how you would make character advancement worthwhile. In a level based game there are always new areas to explore that you couldn't go to before since you would have been killed by the creatures there. There are also a lot of new skills to learn per level which makes you character feel like hes really progressing. Considering there are 60 levels in WoW and you get about a number of new abilities every other level thats a lot of character proggression. The question is how would you make exploring new areas worthwhile when you can go anywhere at level 1? How would you make the character feel like it's really proggressing when you don't get that many new abilities if any. I believe you could accomplish the second by adding new abiilties every so often and perhaps having differnt skills open up after you master one skill. Say you master swords then perhaps you could master a certain type of sword which also brings new abilities. The first problem is a bit trickier to tackle. I guess you could make certain areas filled with more skilled creatures just like you would level based areas with higher level creatures. The differnce being your current skill would deciede if you could win or lose and not your level. Overall I could live without levels, but it would be harder for the devs to create a world that keeps the players interest IMO. There isn't the cookie being dangled like in a level based system. There isn't that desire to get to next level so you can have this ability or go to this place.
This an issue I have right now is companies pushing expansions that move people to other lands. Once you make new worlds, you push your existing player base out of the old lands leaving it dry and barron. What do the new players who log in do when they take a look around at the ghost towns with no one to help? I feel this same way when I have logged into EQ2, to find myself in a Zone, completely alone.
Put it into modern day experiences possibly. I live in the area of Southwest MIchigan, within that area I have held several jobs, each progressing me a little further into my career. I never had to leave Southwest Michigan to get a good paying job. I did not have to travel to the distant lands of California to get my new job level, or to seek new adventure. Not only does the area I live in have enough for me to do on a daily basis, but my job also is interesting enough that I continue to work in the same profession.
Translated, take good game mechanics (Skill-based + variety of professions), and wrap it within a large and interesting world that is just as variable and alive as our own. I know I have repeated myself over and over, but I will say this until I am blue in the face, as to look at UO as one of the finest examples. I played over 3 years in the beginning, on the one main continent, never bored and always having fun. The world was interesting, it was fun to explore, most of all the towns were filled with old veterans, and new adventurers alike. There was always something to do because of the depth and amount of skills and professions available.
The same goes for Ryzom when it was in its prime. A stellar community that did not force the veterans out of the main cities and into new lands. Us homins always went looking for an adventure but always came back home in the end. There never was a day that I felt as alienated by my skill level, and I was always welcome to mingle within the old and new crowds. The world of Atys is one of todays best examples for a living, breathing environment. Animal herds actually have migration patterns. Some animals even had predatory instincts and attacked certain herds when within range, as well as us players.
If you combined the "world/lore/mechanics" of UO with Ryzoms "dynamic environments/npc AI", I would think you would have a winner in my opinion.
Yes, and I think its a passion shared by many people. Just look at WoW. Subscribers come back when new servers are added, and level up new toons. Why? Simply they are power gamers. In other games you see a sharp decline in population after 3 months. Mainly because people have hit max level. This is why most Korean MMOs stagnate at around 10k subscribers in only a couple months. There is no longer a competition to get to max level and without it, why bother playing through boring grind type gameplay with no alternative activities that don't involve combat? Its really 1 thing many developers around the world forget when making a game. There needs to be ways to increase the replayability of a game if you want to maintain a subscription base. Obviously 1 is to offer alternative activites like crafting, exploring, and racing. Another is refreshing the drive to max level every now and then. My idea to do this is a competition server. It gets wiped monthly, but is alot easier to level on. At the end of the month ranks in certain categories are displayed the next month. And it continues like that.
I have suggested this thing for years. having a 30/60/90 day server then wipe will give those types of players something to feel the rush. They could also be used to create special 30 event servers, where something(s) big is going on that server which isn't on the other normal servers. It could be fun.
Muds faced this problem and imo solved it for some players by using remorting. You basically hit max level, "remort" you character which effectively deletes him, to open new class or races or even carry over abilities/loot/money from the remorted character. Puts new life into the game play.
Dragon age game had talked about creating a character's background history for use in driving storylines/plots within that character's game experience. This could be use to create variations in the leveling experience. Sure it might cost more to develope, but I think it would be worth it.
I like the idea of a game without levels, but I wonder how you would make character advancement worthwhile. In a level based game there are always new areas to explore that you couldn't go to before since you would have been killed by the creatures there. There are also a lot of new skills to learn per level which makes you character feel like hes really progressing. Considering there are 60 levels in WoW and you get about a number of new abilities every other level thats a lot of character proggression. The question is how would you make exploring new areas worthwhile when you can go anywhere at level 1? How would you make the character feel like it's really proggressing when you don't get that many new abilities if any. I believe you could accomplish the second by adding new abiilties every so often and perhaps having differnt skills open up after you master one skill. Say you master swords then perhaps you could master a certain type of sword which also brings new abilities. The first problem is a bit trickier to tackle. I guess you could make certain areas filled with more skilled creatures just like you would level based areas with higher level creatures. The differnce being your current skill would deciede if you could win or lose and not your level. Overall I could live without levels, but it would be harder for the devs to create a world that keeps the players interest IMO. There isn't the cookie being dangled like in a level based system. There isn't that desire to get to next level so you can have this ability or go to this place.
Having a MMO that doesn't involve levels is something I have thought about as well. Probably the best way to go about this would be to still have an experience point bar, but when it caps you don't gain a level. You have no level. When it caps you must go somewhere and spend experience points to train in new abilities. Ultimately somehow during this process your base stats would increase also.
Now, the entire world would also not revolve around levels. However, each zone could still have mobs of certain strengths by simply adjusting their base stats. Since there is no level it would be more difficult to tell what is your level and what is not, much like it was in FF11. It makes everything scarey.
So, like this, we'd still advance very effectively, but there is no leveling. You're getting experience to sort of 'buy' your training. It's leveling with a twist. This is about the only way I could see a MMO being worthwhile without a real level system.
If the world was just completely open and available from day 1, like Zelda or something, that probably wouldn't be the best of things. Though in Zelda it had certain restrictions by needing certain items or abilities to proceed...
Comments
Oh...but I will drag skill based into this because its the system that makes ME feel like I can just play the game, and not worry about keeping up.
In UO, even if my skills were lower than someone, when we aventured, I healed with bandages or spells while the other fought. It did not matter how much I was healing as long as I was giving back a little. I also was a blacksmith and while that may have been higher than my fighting skills I was able to contribute good quality armor for my friends as well as myself.
So to answer your question, hell yes I was able to contribute, at any an all times. This I could never say about any level based game.
No.
I never feel pressured to do anything in an MMO. I believe that part of the point of a "virtual world" like MMOs is to get out of it what you want. My friends are busier than I am, so level slower, they have kids. I usually play alot of alts to enjoy the various aspects of the game. If I join a guild, I have researched it, and I know their attitudes. Thusly, I would never join a guild that puts constant pressure on their members to reach endgame.
Leveling at a pace that is not your choice makes the game lose its entertainment value and become work. And I play for fun, not for work. I do what I want, when I want. That's one of the most basic things that makes MMORPGs interesting, you arent stuck in a linear storyline. Don't get me wrong, I love a good storyline. I just like to advance it when I feel like it, not because I have to.
And I don't feel in competition with anyone else to level, I mean whats the point. Who can get the to the end first and stand around doing the same endgame content or PvP over and over? That doesn't appeal at all.
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Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
I agree a lot of games today you do feel forced to level a lot and therefore dont ahve the chance to 'Enjoy' the game properly.
Now i play EvE and i will start by saying it doesant force yu to spend most of your time leveling as this is more or less automatic and has nothing to do with what you do in eve. You see in order to use ships and stuff you need the right skills to do so. Now you can learn ANY skill in game as there are no class limitations at all. So for example i wanted to learn a skill like Battlecruiser level 1 so i can fly a battlecruiser After i get the skills that the Battlecruiser skill needs to be learnt i can click on the battlecruiser skill and ill be presented with a time it will take to learn it at level 1 [all skills haVE 5 LEVELS]. In this case 21 minuites and 12 seconds. The moment i click to learn it [and you can stop and lean a different skil instead wihtout losing the % you have learn it] The skill timer starts counting down.
So while this is ahppening i can have fun by doing things such as hunting NPC's For loot and cash or going out to see the sites such as the fabled 'Monolith' from 2001 a space oddesey. Also it leavs me free to socialise and soon to walk around the station and do buisness with fellow POD pilots in the local cafe.
And thats one reasoon i like eve its skill system means i dont have to spend hours to be able to get that gear or to compete in PvP. Of course because of this set skill learning time Eve can be a bit slow paced till you have begun to get a good set of skills. So expect it to take 2-3 months before you begine to get any good at PvP and about a month before you are good at Questing in eve [they are called missions BTW].
So my advice is do the tutorial at least once [this can take a few hours im told]. Then find a good corp thats willing to help you learn [can be hard for some but usually its not too hard to find the right corp].
DIE LEVELS DIE!
I think another way to ease the pressure of leveling is games where high and low level toons can interact. In City of Heroes/Villains, you can sidekick a low-level toon up to group with a vet or the vet can exemplar down to team with his newbie friend. EQ2 has a similar system with mentoring, so that established high-level players have a way to play with their lower level friends.
That of course helps to lessen the pressue to level up so you can play with your buddy that's been playing since release.
Ya i've feel that way most of the time. Infact, LOTRO and Vanguard were the only MMOs I played where i didnt want to level asap. I didnt feel the need to or anything. Ironically (and this wasnt the reason for my playstyle) both of those games have no end game
This "level-fast-or-die" way of thinking flat out sucks. I'm guilty of it too though. Thats why I like sandbox games and non-level-based games. You set your own goals and you dont feel forced to level fast.
Ugh, I always feel pressured in WoW, especially when i see forumers saying "lvl 70, played for a week" I'm only lvl 20 and I've had it more than a month. This is a good idea though, i will take my time! But seriously, thanks, In all 8 MMO's i've played, that pressure was always there.
I also think that levels are an inadequate system of judging someone experienc out of game. Maybe someone is lvl 5, but they have payed close attention to EVERYTHING, and they actually know more than a lvl 70 who got there in 2 days.
Oh...but I will drag skill based into this because its the system that makes ME feel like I can just play the game, and not worry about keeping up.
In UO, even if my skills were lower than someone, when we aventured, I healed with bandages or spells while the other fought. It did not matter how much I was healing as long as I was giving back a little. I also was a blacksmith and while that may have been higher than my fighting skills I was able to contribute good quality armor for my friends as well as myself.
So to answer your question, hell yes I was able to contribute, at any an all times. This I could never say about any level based game.
Right ... a blacksmith in a level-based game can contribute in exactly the same way. So can a low-level healer, for that matter. Sounds like EQ is the only level-based game you've played. Hard-coded level restrictions on grouping are no longer the norm, whether through mentor-type mechanics (CoH, EQ2) or by just letting people group and take their chances (WoW).You might try seeing what's out there before passing judgment.
Hero's Journey is going to offer dynamic instances that scale to the level and size of the group. So if you wanted to solo a dungeon then you could. It would have fewer enemies and probably less treasure but you wouldn't need a group to go through it. But if you wanted to go through it as a group then it would scale to that as well.
I think that's great for the PvE portion of the game. I don't know about you but it doesn't make me feel pressured to level fast because I know that I won't have to keep up with anyone just so I can do an instance. I hate not being able to go through dungeons because I can't find a group or because my guild doesn't want to do it. I should be able to solo a dungeon and this game would allow me to do so. I can play the game at my own pace knowing that I don't NEED anyone else to help me with anything.
Now obviously that doesn't solve the PvP problem. PvP lovers are still going to power level but at least the game will have normal, PvP and role playing servers.
Little bit, but the main problem is that so many MMORPG's doesn't really have any other goals than leveling. It's really hard enjoy game, when it's all about leveling. If MMORPG would not have levels, then maybe there could be other goals, what would feel good enough to give reason to play the game. Example many time beloging good "guild" what has other reasons to be there, helps a lot.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
As suggested by others, the fact that a game has levels is the heart off the problem. It encourages you to level up as quickly as you can because you're best skills and powers come once you achieve said levels.
I remember playing DAOC on their FFA PVP server, you had to level up to 50 as quickly as you could, because you were pretty much just fodder to anyone who was 3 levels or more higher than yourself... (esp if you were a caster)
With WOW, same problem, can't do the raiding end game unless you are level 70, heck, entire guilds form that only permit people within a few levels of the top to even join them.
Contrast that with a skill based game, you can focus your training on a few skills, so that you are the best at them, and it removes the pressure (somewhat) to work so hard at "leveling".
However, if a game increases your skills based on how much time you play (or exercise them), then you really fall into the same trap. You'll want to log on and "train" constantly, just to get the next 'level' of skill.
EVE has the best skill system (IMO) of any game... skills train in real time, they can be trained all the time, whether you are on-line or not, and nothing you do can speed up the process. (other than buy some implants and what not) Also important is that skills have a definite cap that is quite reachable by all players, so that veterans can't get so far ahead forever that new players can't catch up in a reasonable time.
Now, for people who 'like' to be rewarded for the time they spend in game vs the more casual player, EVE's system is a nightmare, but for people who like to take the pressure off of leveling/training, EVE's system is the best out there.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't ever feel pressured to level.
I enjoy crafting, exploring, merchant aspects as well as stuff like fishing etc.
I get there eventually, but I usually know more about the details of the game than any of my guildies. I am the one that everyone asks, "what does this item do?" or "where do I go to start quest X?"
I enjoy being R&D (research and development)
Cheers!
These are not board games or card games that you "win". These are a form of recreation, like watching television, taking a walk through a scenic area, or reading a book.
You don't "win" by taping your television show then watching it on fast forward. So it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with perspective.
I always form my own guild, and my guild always has only two people in it. Me, and my wife. We then proceed to play the game at our own pace, typically playing several alternate characters (I have 7, she has 5, in WoW), getting heavily into crafting, making much of our own stuff, pursuing our secondary skills, and settling into a duo that becomes our favorite.
Eventually our favorite duo tops out. At that point we form an alliance with some other guild and do raids and such as we see fit, at our own pace. We generally stick with an MMO for four to six years at a stretch, and don't switch around to the "MMO du jour" or get a boner over every "beta" offer that comes along.
The perception problem comes from various myths that attach to MMO. Greatest among these is that they are "social" games where "grouping" is important and people "help" each other. No, they're not really, it's not really, and they don't. It's like being on the beach. It's fun when you're on the beach surrounded by other people engaged in a common pastime. But you don't hook up with seventeen other strangers and all swim together.
Guilds fundamentally want to exploit you. They want you to be a certain (guild needed) class, a certain (guild needed) level, with a certain (guild needed) tradeskill. No matter how "nice" your guild is, you are just one insect in the hive. The hive queen will ignore you if you don't serve the hive. It's a form of communism.
For a healthy experience, you should exploit other guilds, as I do. They have their goals, you have yours, when both your goals coincide then that's good. When they don't, screw them. You are the one paying the money, you're paying it for your own enjoyment, so enjoy!
As long as there will be levels and an end game where you must spend as much time online at max lvl as possible to better your character, the pressure to level will be there for most people.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
I have been in exploitative guilds, but also some very friendly ones. So when you say the friendly ones do not exist, I have to call shenanigans. It helps when the game is not so focused on the top levels -- CoX, for instance, has guild mechanics that encourage supergroups to invite lower level characters and be nice to them. It also has very little in terms of end content, which suits me just fine.
More end content makes people less likely to enjoy the best parts of the game. An alt-friendly game with high replay value is bound to have more staying power.
Heh heh, my opinion on guilds has no bearing on my being social or not. Unless you want to define "social" as meaning "belongs to a guild". Which would be both a bad definition, and bad logic.
Then there's the fact that I never said that "friendly [guilds] don't exist", what I said was no matter how nice your guild may be, the bottom line is that you serve the needs of the guild. Thus, you may feel pressured to level faster than you prefer, which is the topic of this thread.
Reading is fundamental, and if you wish to have a conversation with yourself, you needn't employ a public forum.
My wife and I run around with an assorted group of people from various guilds on a daily basis. The fact that we all have different guild tags, and that my guild only contains two people, says nothing as to our level of sociability lol! If you ever decide to address my points, instead of slandering my character and pretending I've said things that I haven't, perhaps we can continue this conversation!
Everyone levels. You've left out the relevant component of "time". If you want to max out in one month, you'll be under pressure. If you just play the game and reach endgame when you get there, which you will, you won't feel pressure.
Do I feel pressured to level fast?
Like heck I do. Mostly in the MMO's I played with my real life friends, such as LoTRO now. They're blowing through content. They're about 10 levels ahead of me now and I just can't keep up. During the weekends they attempt to power level me through dozens of quests they have already done. I have no idea what's going on or what quests I am doing. I have gotten bored out of my mind and now I don't even have any quests my level to solo, they kind of broke my character. I can't progress without them taking me through much higher level quests or grinding.
FF11 is a bit different though, that is a MMO where it is ok to do what it takes to level up as fast as possible. You don't necessarily miss out on anything, since once you get to 75 there is a VERY good chance you will still need to come back to do what you didn't do originally. Quests and missions don't level you in FF11, it's just a party based grind to 75 and once you get there that's one objective out of the way.
If you are having fun...why would you want it to end sooner rather than later ?
Oh...but I will drag skill based into this because its the system that makes ME feel like I can just play the game, and not worry about keeping up.
In UO, even if my skills were lower than someone, when we aventured, I healed with bandages or spells while the other fought. It did not matter how much I was healing as long as I was giving back a little. I also was a blacksmith and while that may have been higher than my fighting skills I was able to contribute good quality armor for my friends as well as myself.
So to answer your question, hell yes I was able to contribute, at any an all times. This I could never say about any level based game.
Right ... a blacksmith in a level-based game can contribute in exactly the same way. So can a low-level healer, for that matter. Sounds like EQ is the only level-based game you've played. Hard-coded level restrictions on grouping are no longer the norm, whether through mentor-type mechanics (CoH, EQ2) or by just letting people group and take their chances (WoW).You might try seeing what's out there before passing judgment.
Obviously my Xfire sig doesn't stand out enough, please click on it and view my profile. You will be glad to see all the various level based games I have played, as well as skill based. You too may want to do some research before passing judgement.
As of right now EVE and Ryzom (Skill based) are the only two games I have played a considerable amount of time on. EQ2 I played quite a bit, until my friends advanced faster than I, and shortly after I gave up on trying to keep up. EQ2 has a nice mentoring system, but the issue was that higher level friends wanted to keep going higher and had very little interest in coming down to my level and playing for no experience. So the mentoring system was a step in a good direction, but it was no were close to providing a solution.
I am currently playing CoV, and the only reason I am is solely for the Lackey/Malfactor system. Not only can I level down, but the lower levels friends I have can come up to my level, and still advance with me. If it wasn't for this system, I would have no interest in CoV. So mechanics are in place to help, but you have no need for any of these gimics if you played a skill based game like UO, Ryzom or EVE. Never once in any skill based game did I ever feel pressured, only pressure I ever felt was during PvP battles.
I like the idea of a game without levels, but I wonder how you would make character advancement worthwhile.
In a level based game there are always new areas to explore that you couldn't go to before since you would have been killed by the creatures there.
There are also a lot of new skills to learn per level which makes you character feel like hes really progressing. Considering there are 60 levels in WoW and you get about a number of new abilities every other level thats a lot of character proggression.
The question is how would you make exploring new areas worthwhile when you can go anywhere at level 1?
How would you make the character feel like it's really proggressing when you don't get that many new abilities if any.
I believe you could accomplish the second by adding new abiilties every so often and perhaps having differnt skills open up after you master one skill. Say you master swords then perhaps you could master a certain type of sword which also brings new abilities.
The first problem is a bit trickier to tackle. I guess you could make certain areas filled with more skilled creatures just like you would level based areas with higher level creatures. The differnce being your current skill would deciede if you could win or lose and not your level.
Overall I could live without levels, but it would be harder for the devs to create a world that keeps the players interest IMO. There isn't the cookie being dangled like in a level based system. There isn't that desire to get to next level so you can have this ability or go to this place.
I'm not a power gamer. Dont feel pressure to level up.
I was one. I felt pressured. My guildies wanted me to be 'this' or 'that'. Now they want me to be nothing.
I gave up.
Maybe in WAR all the people want to reach max level asap, but I will make my path, knowing all the battlefields and its corners.
I'm UO-made from the mold. Don't worry about levels. There are better things in MMOs life.
It is a question of fangs.
This an issue I have right now is companies pushing expansions that move people to other lands. Once you make new worlds, you push your existing player base out of the old lands leaving it dry and barron. What do the new players who log in do when they take a look around at the ghost towns with no one to help? I feel this same way when I have logged into EQ2, to find myself in a Zone, completely alone.
Put it into modern day experiences possibly. I live in the area of Southwest MIchigan, within that area I have held several jobs, each progressing me a little further into my career. I never had to leave Southwest Michigan to get a good paying job. I did not have to travel to the distant lands of California to get my new job level, or to seek new adventure. Not only does the area I live in have enough for me to do on a daily basis, but my job also is interesting enough that I continue to work in the same profession.
Translated, take good game mechanics (Skill-based + variety of professions), and wrap it within a large and interesting world that is just as variable and alive as our own. I know I have repeated myself over and over, but I will say this until I am blue in the face, as to look at UO as one of the finest examples. I played over 3 years in the beginning, on the one main continent, never bored and always having fun. The world was interesting, it was fun to explore, most of all the towns were filled with old veterans, and new adventurers alike. There was always something to do because of the depth and amount of skills and professions available.
The same goes for Ryzom when it was in its prime. A stellar community that did not force the veterans out of the main cities and into new lands. Us homins always went looking for an adventure but always came back home in the end. There never was a day that I felt as alienated by my skill level, and I was always welcome to mingle within the old and new crowds. The world of Atys is one of todays best examples for a living, breathing environment. Animal herds actually have migration patterns. Some animals even had predatory instincts and attacked certain herds when within range, as well as us players.
If you combined the "world/lore/mechanics" of UO with Ryzoms "dynamic environments/npc AI", I would think you would have a winner in my opinion.
Muds faced this problem and imo solved it for some players by using remorting. You basically hit max level, "remort" you character which effectively deletes him, to open new class or races or even carry over abilities/loot/money from the remorted character. Puts new life into the game play.
Dragon age game had talked about creating a character's background history for use in driving storylines/plots within that character's game experience. This could be use to create variations in the leveling experience. Sure it might cost more to develope, but I think it would be worth it.
Having a MMO that doesn't involve levels is something I have thought about as well. Probably the best way to go about this would be to still have an experience point bar, but when it caps you don't gain a level. You have no level. When it caps you must go somewhere and spend experience points to train in new abilities. Ultimately somehow during this process your base stats would increase also.
Now, the entire world would also not revolve around levels. However, each zone could still have mobs of certain strengths by simply adjusting their base stats. Since there is no level it would be more difficult to tell what is your level and what is not, much like it was in FF11. It makes everything scarey.
So, like this, we'd still advance very effectively, but there is no leveling. You're getting experience to sort of 'buy' your training. It's leveling with a twist. This is about the only way I could see a MMO being worthwhile without a real level system.
If the world was just completely open and available from day 1, like Zelda or something, that probably wouldn't be the best of things. Though in Zelda it had certain restrictions by needing certain items or abilities to proceed...
why would u? u should lvl at ur own paste to tell u the truth i rlly dont care about lvling i just care about the $$$
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