These devs often play PvP games and think challenge is what is driving the players, while in facts, challenges are a side order, something nice, but only an extra in a RPG.
If you think that challenge is very important, then PvP is the way to go (FPS). If you think that challenges are a secondary aspect in the best case scenario, you should go PvE (RPG).
Let's review the success of the MMOs with a monthly fee in the west: - WoW - EQ2/FFXI/EQ/SWG (not sure which come first and which come last) - CoH/CoV - Lineage1/Lineage2/DAoC
The first PvP MMO is in 7th position at best. I didn't even considered some games such as LotRO or DDO...so the first PvP game is prolly 8th or worser in the west.
Now if we look at non-MMO games: FPS are the most popular, and they are PvP oriented...if you look at the EAST, the MMOs over there are more PvP oriented...so the devs kinda think PvP isn't fully blown and are trying...
Or they think they can't compete PvE-wise.
At any rate, PvP is a nice thing, especially for WAR. However, I do believe that shafting PvE as they do in WAR is a mistake in the western market considering which MMOs westerners like and enjoys. Considering that AoC is doing the same mistake, I would just figure these devs are focused on the EAST market, or on their own desire, rather then on the market.
Why isn't UO on that list it's a western mmo and was the first and by far the best pvp mmo ever released. The only thing UO really lacks even by todays standard from how it was on release is sedge warfare type stuff. It's pvp was defiantly better than anything else that's come along up until they managed to break all the fun stuff about it little by little. The next best thing was probably DAOC which by comparison wasn't nearly as fun in large part since it was class based rather than skill based. One of the problems with class systems vs skill systems for pvp is with class systems it's easy to know or figure out what your up against in pvp, but in a skill system that's only true up to a point. UO pvp was so much better than anything else because it had a ton of complex scenarios other pvp mmo's just don't really have at least when the game was at it's pvp prime. You could be fighting the same person for less than 30 seconds or still fighting them 2 hours later all the while having to worry about running into players ready or willing to kill and or steal from you plus avoiding mob aggro and keeping a eye on hit points, mana, and stanima along with regents, arrows, potions, bandages, ect....plus armor and or weapons breaking. Basically said it was like the equivalent of a on going multi person/environment chess match of sorts.
WAR pvp looks like it should be decent compared to anything on the market right now including UO's current form, but still won't live up to UO's early days and the only game that really has any hopes of doing that is Darkfall which have a fun wait on it since it's all ready been in development for 6 or 7 years nows and still hasn't had even a closed beta so far let alone open beta so at this point it's more or less vaporware until proven otherwise, but I suppose still gives us all a glimmer of hope inside which is better than nothing I suppose.
I felt DAoC was better than UO but you cant discount UO's importance to the step in the right direction. If UO is the mother of all pvp games, DAoC is the father that taught it how to stand up like a man and walk.
The pvp in daoc was just sooo good. I cant think of another game where you can play solo, duo, group, small zerg and epic large scale seige....... all in 1 game.
we as humans are naturally competitive. its in our genes we dont know why. pvp is here to satisfy that. plus its better than actually going outside and killin each other. and in the case of guildwars you can win up to 100,000 bucks if you are the top guild at the end of the tournament.
my advise for you is do NOT buy this game if your not willing to pvp. even pve contributes to pvp so why help something you will never do? its like paying for a membership to a club or somthin and never going.
Hello everyone, First off...please be kind. This is in fact my first post on any forum, ever. Secondly...I have been playing MMO's since 99'. I have tried many and loved most of them. Here is my deal. Most MMO's are going PVP. I in fact have never participated and would like some input as to what all the fuss is. What is the draw? Why is it so much better than regular PVE? I'm really looking forward to Warhammer Online and want to add value to the side of my choosing....in that also, what makes someone better at PVP than another? Please advise! Thanks
Simple invision mob AI so good that it is as good as you are. It can figure out ways to hurt you and avoid getting hurt as well as you can ... do things you never thought possible all while playing by the same rules your character must.... Sounds great no ? changing , challenging, not the same old same old.... thats what pvp is that AI happens to be another player.
Beyond that it somehow makes it more real thats not AI script. if you die or win it matters little even with punishment... But vs other players it does matter becuase your out skilled them (in the case of daoc most often, in wow is equip vs equip).
Why pvp becuase its 100% more fun than pve as logn as you do not treat it as grinding... do it to just have fun.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
After playing PvE games I came to realize after I quit them that the only viable longevity of a MMO for me is PvP because I get more out of PvP than gear grinding PvE games. Of course PvP means combat to most people. While combat is very important to me, fun in PvP can be found in trying to out wit other players such as in economics and trading. While it doesn't always require direct combat, it is still a form of PvP. So to me PvP in all its aspects whether it requires combat or not is really the only true endgame and lasting experience in a MMO IMO. I think some upcoming PvP MMO will be more popular than people expect if those games are polished and bring something meaningful and immersive to their PvP MMOs.
Hello everyone, First off...please be kind. This is in fact my first post on any forum, ever. Secondly...I have been playing MMO's since 99'. I have tried many and loved most of them. Here is my deal. Most MMO's are going PVP. I in fact have never participated and would like some input as to what all the fuss is. What is the draw? Why is it so much better than regular PVE? I'm really looking forward to Warhammer Online and want to add value to the side of my choosing....in that also, what makes someone better at PVP than another? Please advise! Thanks
Simple invision mob AI so good that it is as good as you are. It can figure out ways to hurt you and avoid getting hurt as well as you can ... do things you never thought possible all while playing by the same rules your character must.... Sounds great no ? changing , challenging, not the same old same old.... thats what pvp is that AI happens to be another player.
Beyond that it somehow makes it more real thats not AI script. if you die or win it matters little even with punishment... But vs other players it does matter becuase your out skilled them (in the case of daoc most often, in wow is equip vs equip).
Why pvp becuase its 100% more fun than pve as logn as you do not treat it as grinding... do it to just have fun.
Amen. I also enjoy open world PvP because I find it enhances PvE and makes it more challenging. If you are questing in a territory that is contested or controlled by an opposing faction, you not only have to keep your quest objectives in mind, but also keep your eyes and ears open for opponents who are lurking out there somewhere just itching to put a knife in your gut. I always felt that many of the gamers who cry about wanting more strict death penalties, or longer, more tedious corpse runs should just play on PvP servers if they want more of a challenge in their MMORPG experience.
I have a hard time understanding why people would play a MMORPG that doesn't have PVP. All of the nerfed MMORPGs have basically the same mindless style of gameplay which involveds killing mindless NPCs and performing mundane tasks such as retrieving or delivering items. PVP creates drama, competition, and adds a depth to games that game developers can't pre-program. When making a choice between playing a nerfed or PVP game you just have to ask youself which would you find more enjoyable, matching you're witts against a mindless, pre-scripted NPC monster, or doing it against a real person. Some people enjoiy the predictable style of gameplay nerfed games offer, I for one find playing against real people more exciting and fulfilling.
One thing that some posters have pointed out is that PVE games have generally been far more successful than PVP games. This should not be interpreted as meaning that gamers as a whole have rejected PVP. (but of course some do).
Fact is, most people object to Free for all (FFA) PVP, where players are free to gank whomever and whenever they chose to. UO is touted as the "best" PVP, but the fact that players could kill wantonly, and be rewarded by looting their opponents pretty much restricted that style of combat to a niche role.
DAOC's real genius was providing safe PVE zones for players to level in, but add in large FFA RVR zones and Battlegrounds where players from each realm could square off against. There was no painful looting, just time lost as you sat out and waited to get into the next fight. Due to an unfortunate competition with EQ 1 (who was the big dog at the time) not enough players gave DAOC a real chance, and they missed out on some of the best PVP combat ever offered to the market. (DAOC did offer FFA PVP servers, w/o looting and they were for the most part not successful)
The real problem with most PVP games so far is that they were poorly made. UO, was a legendary first, but was rated Coaster of the Year by CGW when it first came out. SWG had PVP....another Coaster of the Year.... , Shadowbane? Poorly programmed and maintained, Lineage 2? Way too much PVE grinding to get to the real PVP end game.... the list goes on and on. There are some good PVP games out there such as EVE, but its overall game design doesn't appeal to the average player. (EVE is complicated, and not for everyone)
It should be noted, WOW has PVP servers, and the demand is strong for them. Why? Because it is controlled PVP... safe zones for lower level players, large enough areas for people to avoid gankers, and no loss of exp/items makes PVP servers very appealing to a large portion of the gaming market. In fact, since WOW's PVP servers aren't really exciting enough, many players on them are perfect candidates to defect over to WAR once its available.
I think the player market is more interested in PVP than most people realize. But they are going to demand that the games be well designed and implemented, that PVP combat have meaning, that controls are put in to the game to limit ganking, (such as DAOC's no realm point rewards for ganking significantly lower level players or those already engaged in PVE combat), and in general, the game be fun for a large audiance.
I don't think any game so far has really met these critiera (though I feel DAOC was a great first try) and feel that WAR has a chance to explode on the market and bring a PVP - oriented game to the masses and be as much of a hit as WOW was. No, I'm not predicting that WAR will ever reach WOW's 8 millions subs, but it does stand a chance to reach the 1 million player mark, which would truly be a milestone for a pvp-focused game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some reasons why WAR will do better than most other MMORPG's out there:
1) NO GANKING: Yes, finally a game where I cannot get ganked by every high level toon that has nothing better to do with their time than to grief someone 20 levels lower just for an easy kill. Then they turn around and call you a N00b because you cannot PVP. Ummm hello of course I can't PVP you look at the level difference. WAR does not allow this. I do not have any idea what they have planned for high levels coming into a low level RVR zone but I have heard that they might be ghosted so they can't interact with anyone, but there also is that Chaos Chicken thing that Paul was talking about.
2) PVP when I want it, NO PKing: Finally I can PVP in a game when I want, not when someone else has an ego problem and needs to have it stroked. I no longer have to play a game by someone else's rules, and that makes the game more fun. I do not find a game enjoyable if I am not allowed to do things I want to in the game. What is the point in playing? That is rhetorical question BTW. I can also go PVE when I don't want to PVP and for the first time not have to worry about rotating my screen 360 degrees every two seconds to see of someone is going to come and gank me.
3) NO griefing: again for the same reasons stated above. A game I can actually play anyway I want to at my own rules not at the behest of others. If I am in a PVE area I will not have to worry about someone trying to steal from me, or camping my body, or trying to kill me to get my gear, or trying to train me for the same reason.
I like PVP just like any other person. However I like the challenge of actually versing someone approximately my level. That is a challenge! I will be able to enter an RVR area and feel confident that I can get some good PVP out of the experience because I will know that I will be versing those my same level. NOT some super high dork that has to fell superior by killing a lowbie. SO yeah I am looking forward to WAR. Someone finally has created a game that will appeal to a LARGE expanse of people that want to play a game and have fun playing the game.
IF you gankers and assassins don't like this post too bad. You will not be able to do anything about it. The nice thing about WAR is that this game will not appeal to you so that means you won't be playing. Just another reason why I want to play. You will finally not be able to play your style and you will find it boring. Fine by me if you don't stay that means more play time and fun for me.
Jezvin thanks for the info, I had heard that war was not going to be a open pvp game but from the posts i have read i heard that war was screwing the pve players so i just assumed i have never played DAOC because i heard it was a pvp game so i cant fairly compare it to any game i have played, If war is not going to be a pvp game than i will certainly give it a try thanks for letting me know
Comments
Why isn't UO on that list it's a western mmo and was the first and by far the best pvp mmo ever released. The only thing UO really lacks even by todays standard from how it was on release is sedge warfare type stuff. It's pvp was defiantly better than anything else that's come along up until they managed to break all the fun stuff about it little by little. The next best thing was probably DAOC which by comparison wasn't nearly as fun in large part since it was class based rather than skill based. One of the problems with class systems vs skill systems for pvp is with class systems it's easy to know or figure out what your up against in pvp, but in a skill system that's only true up to a point. UO pvp was so much better than anything else because it had a ton of complex scenarios other pvp mmo's just don't really have at least when the game was at it's pvp prime. You could be fighting the same person for less than 30 seconds or still fighting them 2 hours later all the while having to worry about running into players ready or willing to kill and or steal from you plus avoiding mob aggro and keeping a eye on hit points, mana, and stanima along with regents, arrows, potions, bandages, ect....plus armor and or weapons breaking. Basically said it was like the equivalent of a on going multi person/environment chess match of sorts.
WAR pvp looks like it should be decent compared to anything on the market right now including UO's current form, but still won't live up to UO's early days and the only game that really has any hopes of doing that is Darkfall which have a fun wait on it since it's all ready been in development for 6 or 7 years nows and still hasn't had even a closed beta so far let alone open beta so at this point it's more or less vaporware until proven otherwise, but I suppose still gives us all a glimmer of hope inside which is better than nothing I suppose.
I felt DAoC was better than UO but you cant discount UO's importance to the step in the right direction. If UO is the mother of all pvp games, DAoC is the father that taught it how to stand up like a man and walk.
The pvp in daoc was just sooo good. I cant think of another game where you can play solo, duo, group, small zerg and epic large scale seige....... all in 1 game.
b/c we are not allow to kill ppl in real life so we do it in games.
we as humans are naturally competitive. its in our genes we dont know why. pvp is here to satisfy that. plus its better than actually going outside and killin each other. and in the case of guildwars you can win up to 100,000 bucks if you are the top guild at the end of the tournament.
my advise for you is do NOT buy this game if your not willing to pvp. even pve contributes to pvp so why help something you will never do? its like paying for a membership to a club or somthin and never going.
Beyond that it somehow makes it more real thats not AI script. if you die or win it matters little even with punishment... But vs other players it does matter becuase your out skilled them (in the case of daoc most often, in wow is equip vs equip).
Why pvp becuase its 100% more fun than pve as logn as you do not treat it as grinding... do it to just have fun.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
After playing PvE games I came to realize after I quit them that the only viable longevity of a MMO for me is PvP because I get more out of PvP than gear grinding PvE games. Of course PvP means combat to most people. While combat is very important to me, fun in PvP can be found in trying to out wit other players such as in economics and trading. While it doesn't always require direct combat, it is still a form of PvP. So to me PvP in all its aspects whether it requires combat or not is really the only true endgame and lasting experience in a MMO IMO. I think some upcoming PvP MMO will be more popular than people expect if those games are polished and bring something meaningful and immersive to their PvP MMOs.
Beyond that it somehow makes it more real thats not AI script. if you die or win it matters little even with punishment... But vs other players it does matter becuase your out skilled them (in the case of daoc most often, in wow is equip vs equip).
Why pvp becuase its 100% more fun than pve as logn as you do not treat it as grinding... do it to just have fun.
Amen. I also enjoy open world PvP because I find it enhances PvE and makes it more challenging. If you are questing in a territory that is contested or controlled by an opposing faction, you not only have to keep your quest objectives in mind, but also keep your eyes and ears open for opponents who are lurking out there somewhere just itching to put a knife in your gut. I always felt that many of the gamers who cry about wanting more strict death penalties, or longer, more tedious corpse runs should just play on PvP servers if they want more of a challenge in their MMORPG experience.
I have a hard time understanding why people would play a MMORPG that doesn't have PVP. All of the nerfed MMORPGs have basically the same mindless style of gameplay which involveds killing mindless NPCs and performing mundane tasks such as retrieving or delivering items. PVP creates drama, competition, and adds a depth to games that game developers can't pre-program. When making a choice between playing a nerfed or PVP game you just have to ask youself which would you find more enjoyable, matching you're witts against a mindless, pre-scripted NPC monster, or doing it against a real person. Some people enjoiy the predictable style of gameplay nerfed games offer, I for one find playing against real people more exciting and fulfilling.
One thing that some posters have pointed out is that PVE games have generally been far more successful than PVP games. This should not be interpreted as meaning that gamers as a whole have rejected PVP. (but of course some do).
Fact is, most people object to Free for all (FFA) PVP, where players are free to gank whomever and whenever they chose to. UO is touted as the "best" PVP, but the fact that players could kill wantonly, and be rewarded by looting their opponents pretty much restricted that style of combat to a niche role.
DAOC's real genius was providing safe PVE zones for players to level in, but add in large FFA RVR zones and Battlegrounds where players from each realm could square off against. There was no painful looting, just time lost as you sat out and waited to get into the next fight. Due to an unfortunate competition with EQ 1 (who was the big dog at the time) not enough players gave DAOC a real chance, and they missed out on some of the best PVP combat ever offered to the market. (DAOC did offer FFA PVP servers, w/o looting and they were for the most part not successful)
The real problem with most PVP games so far is that they were poorly made. UO, was a legendary first, but was rated Coaster of the Year by CGW when it first came out. SWG had PVP....another Coaster of the Year.... , Shadowbane? Poorly programmed and maintained, Lineage 2? Way too much PVE grinding to get to the real PVP end game.... the list goes on and on. There are some good PVP games out there such as EVE, but its overall game design doesn't appeal to the average player. (EVE is complicated, and not for everyone)
It should be noted, WOW has PVP servers, and the demand is strong for them. Why? Because it is controlled PVP... safe zones for lower level players, large enough areas for people to avoid gankers, and no loss of exp/items makes PVP servers very appealing to a large portion of the gaming market. In fact, since WOW's PVP servers aren't really exciting enough, many players on them are perfect candidates to defect over to WAR once its available.
I think the player market is more interested in PVP than most people realize. But they are going to demand that the games be well designed and implemented, that PVP combat have meaning, that controls are put in to the game to limit ganking, (such as DAOC's no realm point rewards for ganking significantly lower level players or those already engaged in PVE combat), and in general, the game be fun for a large audiance.
I don't think any game so far has really met these critiera (though I feel DAOC was a great first try) and feel that WAR has a chance to explode on the market and bring a PVP - oriented game to the masses and be as much of a hit as WOW was. No, I'm not predicting that WAR will ever reach WOW's 8 millions subs, but it does stand a chance to reach the 1 million player mark, which would truly be a milestone for a pvp-focused game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some reasons why WAR will do better than most other MMORPG's out there:
1) NO GANKING: Yes, finally a game where I cannot get ganked by every high level toon that has nothing better to do with their time than to grief someone 20 levels lower just for an easy kill. Then they turn around and call you a N00b because you cannot PVP. Ummm hello of course I can't PVP you look at the level difference. WAR does not allow this. I do not have any idea what they have planned for high levels coming into a low level RVR zone but I have heard that they might be ghosted so they can't interact with anyone, but there also is that Chaos Chicken thing that Paul was talking about.
2) PVP when I want it, NO PKing: Finally I can PVP in a game when I want, not when someone else has an ego problem and needs to have it stroked. I no longer have to play a game by someone else's rules, and that makes the game more fun. I do not find a game enjoyable if I am not allowed to do things I want to in the game. What is the point in playing? That is rhetorical question BTW. I can also go PVE when I don't want to PVP and for the first time not have to worry about rotating my screen 360 degrees every two seconds to see of someone is going to come and gank me.
3) NO griefing: again for the same reasons stated above. A game I can actually play anyway I want to at my own rules not at the behest of others. If I am in a PVE area I will not have to worry about someone trying to steal from me, or camping my body, or trying to kill me to get my gear, or trying to train me for the same reason.
I like PVP just like any other person. However I like the challenge of actually versing someone approximately my level. That is a challenge! I will be able to enter an RVR area and feel confident that I can get some good PVP out of the experience because I will know that I will be versing those my same level. NOT some super high dork that has to fell superior by killing a lowbie. SO yeah I am looking forward to WAR. Someone finally has created a game that will appeal to a LARGE expanse of people that want to play a game and have fun playing the game.
IF you gankers and assassins don't like this post too bad. You will not be able to do anything about it. The nice thing about WAR is that this game will not appeal to you so that means you won't be playing. Just another reason why I want to play. You will finally not be able to play your style and you will find it boring. Fine by me if you don't stay that means more play time and fun for me.
Jezvin thanks for the info, I had heard that war was not going to be a open pvp game but from the posts i have read i heard that war was screwing the pve players so i just assumed i have never played DAOC because i heard it was a pvp game so i cant fairly compare it to any game i have played, If war is not going to be a pvp game than i will certainly give it a try thanks for letting me know