Anyone who'd spent a little time reading about how they hope the GM system will work knows what he's talking about and that the end game won't be raid raid raid in the way WoW is (many of us clearly know Sim from past games and have plenty of trust that they can), the game isn't out yet, and won't be for some time so time will tell if they get it right or not but frankly the more you post, the more I think you're just looking to beef up your post count.
I really can't explain it in words but like DownMonkey said. It's going to be a lot more than just raid, raid, raid. That uber boss that just sits at the end of the last raid dungeon all the time in other games might actually come out and raid you in HJ. If my understanding is right then there will be a major political aspect to the game as well allowing players to deal with situations in ways other than combat. Like I said before, cities or towns might be burned to the ground and in some cases they may not be rebuilt. If HJ is anything like Gemstone or Dragonrealms then the involvement of the GM's will create unique challenges and situations that you won't find in any other game. It's just hard to explain to someone that only knows raid, raid, raid all the time. But when you do see this game then you'll know how much you've been missing out on with WoW.
the more you post, the more I think you're just looking to beef up your post count.
I heard that at 1,000 I get a stuffed bear. That better be true. I take a lot of heat on these boards and I could use a bear.
Anyway, "end game" is a misnomer. Every mmo worth its salt keeps adding more content, so it's really "end game - for now." For example, Plane of Hate in EQ used to be end game. Molton Core used to be end game in WoW. Both games have moved way past that content now, and a ton more new things have been added. So saying that HJ won't have one and will keep adding new things is just another iteratin of what other gamemakers have been doing for years.
I grant you, if they deliver on the dynamic, on the fly, game changing, gm driven spontaneous world events thingy, that would be cool. But how many times have I heard that before? Matrix online, anyone? Suffice to say, if they actually do it I will be the first to say way to go (although I don't think it is "deeper" or "more challenging", just cool and refreshingly unorthodox). But I'm having a hard time believing they can provide that when they can't even update their website in years.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I for one played MxO, and the live events were cool, BUT it was restricted by the engine. Put simply, the GMs didn't have the proper tools to make the live events ... realistic.
I read a lot about HE, and the fact that Bio "anything I touch turns gold" Ware bought their engine, means it has those capabilities they talked about. I am all for little companies making huge titles, I believe it can be done. And don't bring Dorkfall in to this discussion, that was a flop from a mile away the first day I heard of it.
the more you post, the more I think you're just looking to beef up your post count.
I heard that at 1,000 I get a stuffed bear. That better be true. I take a lot of heat on these boards and I could use a bear.
Anyway, "end game" is a misnomer. Every mmo worth its salt keeps adding more content, so it's really "end game - for now." For example, Plane of Hate in EQ used to be end game. Molton Core used to be end game in WoW. Both games have moved way past that content now, and a ton more new things have been added. So saying that HJ won't have one and will keep adding new things is just another iteratin of what other gamemakers have been doing for years.
I grant you, if they deliver on the dynamic, on the fly, game changing, gm driven spontaneous world events thingy, that would be cool. But how many times have I heard that before? Matrix online, anyone? Suffice to say, if they actually do it I will be the first to say way to go (although I don't think it is "deeper" or "more challenging", just cool and refreshingly unorthodox). But I'm having a hard time believing they can provide that when they can't even update their website in years.
If I change "more challenging" to "new and different challenges that can be accomplished in ways not seen before in MMO's" would that be better? I'm still sticking with my belief that it will be a deeper game than games like WoW and the like. Games like that are so shallow that it doesn't take much for a game like HJ to be deeper.
Personally, I don't see why there's so much disbelief that an online game company can provide Live Content and Live Events to its players. I remember the first year or so of EverQuest, there were constantly live events and GM's possessing monsters to wreak havoc on the players. I remember 6 gnolls in Blackburrow having a grand old time toying with the players; and the players loved it also.
Plus, Simutronics has had GM's running events and such in their other games for....decades now. Shouldnt be too difficult to change venues and carry on that tradition. HeroEngine is pretty powerful, and Simutronics designed the engine with a long laundry list of features that are must-haves. That, coupled with the ability for GM's to modify Live Content, on the fly, makes alot of things possible.
Anyways, back to work for me. Good eve to you all.
------------------------- "An area decorated in blood, is an area decorated with love." - HJ-Rowell
Former Simutronics Staff (ASGM) Hero's Journey - World Building Team
Personally, I don't see why there's so much disbelief that an online game company can provide Live Content and Live Events to its players. I remember the first year or so of EverQuest, there were constantly live events and GM's possessing monsters to wreak havoc on the players. I remember 6 gnolls in Blackburrow having a grand old time toying with the players; and the players loved it also. Plus, Simutronics has had GM's running events and such in their other games for....decades now. Shouldnt be too difficult to change venues and carry on that tradition. HeroEngine is pretty powerful, and Simutronics designed the engine with a long laundry list of features that are must-haves. That, coupled with the ability for GM's to modify Live Content, on the fly, makes alot of things possible. Anyways, back to work for me. Good eve to you all.
Most of the time, nowadays, when an mmo launches the development team is absolutely overwhelmed with issues. So they just don't have time for many live events. If HJ puts together a live events team, and can spare those employee assets, that would be great. But what we are seeing right now is that there are so many things HJ doesn't do that other companies do that are explained by reference to, "our people are too busy making the game ... " So if HJ can't keep pace pre-launch, I am skeptical it can keep pace post launch.
But that is not the only thing. Events, in the modern mmo world, often lead to complaining and charges of unfairness, favoritism, etc. Look at, for example, the blistering attacks going on in Eve over allegations that GMs favored one corporation over another. (Not about an event, but about how their GMs conducted themselves while playing the game, which is analogous). It is seriously hurting the game. A lot of companies eventually conclude that live events cause more trouble than they are worth.
Sometimes I feel like HJ expects to have the same players, with the same attitudes and values, as they have in their other games. Sure, some if not a lot of those folks would buy HJ if it ships. But you will also have the "others" - lots of them. I hope HJ takes into account how the mmo playerbase is different, and what effect this will inevitably have on the game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Originally posted by Amathe Sometimes I feel like HJ expects to have the same players, with the same attitudes and values, as they have in their other games. Sure, some if not a lot of those folks would buy HJ if it ships. But you will also have the "others" - lots of them. I hope HJ takes into account how the mmo playerbase is different, and what effect this will inevitably have on the game.
I'm also curious to see how this will turn out. And how they'll balance the game to accommodate both camps. It's also interesting that most of the people who post here are ex/current simu subscribers. I wonder what people who've never played a simu game make of HJ.
Most of the time, nowadays, when an mmo launches the development team is absolutely overwhelmed with issues. So they just don't have time for many live events. If HJ puts together a live events team, and can spare those employee assets, that would be great. But what we are seeing right now is that there are so many things HJ doesn't do that other companies do that are explained by reference to, "our people are too busy making the game ... " So if HJ can't keep pace pre-launch, I am skeptical it can keep pace post launch.
But that is not the only thing. Events, in the modern mmo world, often lead to complaining and charges of unfairness, favoritism, etc. Look at, for example, the blistering attacks going on in Eve over allegations that GMs favored one corporation over another. (Not about an event, but about how their GMs conducted themselves while playing the game, which is analogous). It is seriously hurting the game. A lot of companies eventually conclude that live events cause more trouble than they are worth.
The GMs and company employees aren't exactly the same thing from my understanding. GMs will be running the events, and there will be tons of them. The GMs are not guaranteed pay, but have to work a certain amount of hours a week. The things that are not being done because of the small company are not things trusted to GMs. The GMs, currently, are only developing.
As for the second part.. All games cater to one section of people more than another. It is unavoidable. I think the big hoop-la over Eve is just because they're catering to a group most people don't now of days. If Eve stops being good to that group and focuses on another (because it is impossible to please everyone at once) then they will lose the people that aren't unhappy. Any way a company goes, it smells of failure in one section and success in another.
I disagree with your characterizations. But let's assume for the purpose of argument you are right. Why will HJ be more challenging? And what is their end game content? Why do you think HJ will be better in those departments? I sure haven't seen anything to make me think that.
I think the main point you are missing is the GM system. NWN was and is great because it allows those who enjoy the Dungeon Master / Game Master aspects of gaming to participate in the way they enjoy gaming, by crafting and presenting their own stories and adventures. It creates a level of interaction we are normally only used to in analog games like PnP RPGs and Tabletop war games. For some of us the end game will be GM'ing, which is something that is sorely lacking in other MMOs. NWN did it successfully. HJ is taking it to the next level by adapting it to graphical MMOs in a way that will allow players to have the power to create areas, stories, quests and run live events.
If they pull it off, it really will be a step forward for graphical MMOs.
If they pull it off, it really will be a step forward for graphical MMOs.
I don't disagree with this. Moreover, there are quite a few features abut HJ that are either refreshingly new, or things we see far too seldom. For example, designing your own look instead of it being gear driven. CoH already does that, but not many games do (and I loved that feature when I played CoH). The fact that HJ promises so many cool things is why I got interested in it in the first place, and why, on some level, I still have a glimmer of hope these things will actually be delivered.
But it is only a glimmer, and it grows darker with each passing day. When you can't showcase your own game at your own convention, that may really be the last nail.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Most of the time, nowadays, when an mmo launches the development team is absolutely overwhelmed with issues. So they just don't have time for many live events. If HJ puts together a live events team, and can spare those employee assets, that would be great. But what we are seeing right now is that there are so many things HJ doesn't do that other companies do that are explained by reference to, "our people are too busy making the game ... " So if HJ can't keep pace pre-launch, I am skeptical it can keep pace post launch.
But that is not the only thing. Events, in the modern mmo world, often lead to complaining and charges of unfairness, favoritism, etc. Look at, for example, the blistering attacks going on in Eve over allegations that GMs favored one corporation over another. (Not about an event, but about how their GMs conducted themselves while playing the game, which is analogous). It is seriously hurting the game. A lot of companies eventually conclude that live events cause more trouble than they are worth.
The GMs and company employees aren't exactly the same thing from my understanding. GMs will be running the events, and there will be tons of them. The GMs are not guaranteed pay, but have to work a certain amount of hours a week. The things that are not being done because of the small company are not things trusted to GMs. The GMs, currently, are only developing.
As for the second part.. All games cater to one section of people more than another. It is unavoidable. I think the big hoop-la over Eve is just because they're catering to a group most people don't now of days. If Eve stops being good to that group and focuses on another (because it is impossible to please everyone at once) then they will lose the people that aren't unhappy. Any way a company goes, it smells of failure in one section and success in another.
Very , very well put HJ will follow the line of EVE and cater fro the market area Simutronics know best, one of the reasons a few dissenters moan about not enough communication, updates. Roll on HJ i jut can't wait....
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Comments
Oh ok. That sounds deeper and more challenging.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Oh ok. That sounds deeper and more challenging.
Anyone who'd spent a little time reading about how they hope the GM system will work knows what he's talking about and that the end game won't be raid raid raid in the way WoW is (many of us clearly know Sim from past games and have plenty of trust that they can), the game isn't out yet, and won't be for some time so time will tell if they get it right or not but frankly the more you post, the more I think you're just looking to beef up your post count.
Oh ok. That sounds deeper and more challenging.
I really can't explain it in words but like DownMonkey said. It's going to be a lot more than just raid, raid, raid. That uber boss that just sits at the end of the last raid dungeon all the time in other games might actually come out and raid you in HJ. If my understanding is right then there will be a major political aspect to the game as well allowing players to deal with situations in ways other than combat. Like I said before, cities or towns might be burned to the ground and in some cases they may not be rebuilt. If HJ is anything like Gemstone or Dragonrealms then the involvement of the GM's will create unique challenges and situations that you won't find in any other game. It's just hard to explain to someone that only knows raid, raid, raid all the time. But when you do see this game then you'll know how much you've been missing out on with WoW.
Anyway, "end game" is a misnomer. Every mmo worth its salt keeps adding more content, so it's really "end game - for now." For example, Plane of Hate in EQ used to be end game. Molton Core used to be end game in WoW. Both games have moved way past that content now, and a ton more new things have been added. So saying that HJ won't have one and will keep adding new things is just another iteratin of what other gamemakers have been doing for years.
I grant you, if they deliver on the dynamic, on the fly, game changing, gm driven spontaneous world events thingy, that would be cool. But how many times have I heard that before? Matrix online, anyone? Suffice to say, if they actually do it I will be the first to say way to go (although I don't think it is "deeper" or "more challenging", just cool and refreshingly unorthodox). But I'm having a hard time believing they can provide that when they can't even update their website in years.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I for one played MxO, and the live events were cool, BUT it was restricted by the engine. Put simply, the GMs didn't have the proper tools to make the live events ... realistic.
I read a lot about HE, and the fact that Bio "anything I touch turns gold" Ware bought their engine, means it has those capabilities they talked about. I am all for little companies making huge titles, I believe it can be done. And don't bring Dorkfall in to this discussion, that was a flop from a mile away the first day I heard of it.
Anyway, "end game" is a misnomer. Every mmo worth its salt keeps adding more content, so it's really "end game - for now." For example, Plane of Hate in EQ used to be end game. Molton Core used to be end game in WoW. Both games have moved way past that content now, and a ton more new things have been added. So saying that HJ won't have one and will keep adding new things is just another iteratin of what other gamemakers have been doing for years.
I grant you, if they deliver on the dynamic, on the fly, game changing, gm driven spontaneous world events thingy, that would be cool. But how many times have I heard that before? Matrix online, anyone? Suffice to say, if they actually do it I will be the first to say way to go (although I don't think it is "deeper" or "more challenging", just cool and refreshingly unorthodox). But I'm having a hard time believing they can provide that when they can't even update their website in years.
If I change "more challenging" to "new and different challenges that can be accomplished in ways not seen before in MMO's" would that be better? I'm still sticking with my belief that it will be a deeper game than games like WoW and the like. Games like that are so shallow that it doesn't take much for a game like HJ to be deeper.
Personally, I don't see why there's so much disbelief that an online game company can provide Live Content and Live Events to its players. I remember the first year or so of EverQuest, there were constantly live events and GM's possessing monsters to wreak havoc on the players. I remember 6 gnolls in Blackburrow having a grand old time toying with the players; and the players loved it also.
Plus, Simutronics has had GM's running events and such in their other games for....decades now. Shouldnt be too difficult to change venues and carry on that tradition. HeroEngine is pretty powerful, and Simutronics designed the engine with a long laundry list of features that are must-haves. That, coupled with the ability for GM's to modify Live Content, on the fly, makes alot of things possible.
Anyways, back to work for me. Good eve to you all.
-------------------------
"An area decorated in blood, is an area decorated with love."
- HJ-Rowell
Former Simutronics Staff (ASGM)
Hero's Journey - World Building Team
http://play.net/hj/
Most of the time, nowadays, when an mmo launches the development team is absolutely overwhelmed with issues. So they just don't have time for many live events. If HJ puts together a live events team, and can spare those employee assets, that would be great. But what we are seeing right now is that there are so many things HJ doesn't do that other companies do that are explained by reference to, "our people are too busy making the game ... " So if HJ can't keep pace pre-launch, I am skeptical it can keep pace post launch.
But that is not the only thing. Events, in the modern mmo world, often lead to complaining and charges of unfairness, favoritism, etc. Look at, for example, the blistering attacks going on in Eve over allegations that GMs favored one corporation over another. (Not about an event, but about how their GMs conducted themselves while playing the game, which is analogous). It is seriously hurting the game. A lot of companies eventually conclude that live events cause more trouble than they are worth.
Sometimes I feel like HJ expects to have the same players, with the same attitudes and values, as they have in their other games. Sure, some if not a lot of those folks would buy HJ if it ships. But you will also have the "others" - lots of them. I hope HJ takes into account how the mmo playerbase is different, and what effect this will inevitably have on the game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm also curious to see how this will turn out. And how they'll balance the game to accommodate both camps. It's also interesting that most of the people who post here are ex/current simu subscribers. I wonder what people who've never played a simu game make of HJ.
As for the second part.. All games cater to one section of people more than another. It is unavoidable. I think the big hoop-la over Eve is just because they're catering to a group most people don't now of days. If Eve stops being good to that group and focuses on another (because it is impossible to please everyone at once) then they will lose the people that aren't unhappy. Any way a company goes, it smells of failure in one section and success in another.
I think the main point you are missing is the GM system. NWN was and is great because it allows those who enjoy the Dungeon Master / Game Master aspects of gaming to participate in the way they enjoy gaming, by crafting and presenting their own stories and adventures. It creates a level of interaction we are normally only used to in analog games like PnP RPGs and Tabletop war games. For some of us the end game will be GM'ing, which is something that is sorely lacking in other MMOs. NWN did it successfully. HJ is taking it to the next level by adapting it to graphical MMOs in a way that will allow players to have the power to create areas, stories, quests and run live events.
If they pull it off, it really will be a step forward for graphical MMOs.
World Builder GM
Hero's Journey
I don't disagree with this. Moreover, there are quite a few features abut HJ that are either refreshingly new, or things we see far too seldom. For example, designing your own look instead of it being gear driven. CoH already does that, but not many games do (and I loved that feature when I played CoH). The fact that HJ promises so many cool things is why I got interested in it in the first place, and why, on some level, I still have a glimmer of hope these things will actually be delivered.
But it is only a glimmer, and it grows darker with each passing day. When you can't showcase your own game at your own convention, that may really be the last nail.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
As for the second part.. All games cater to one section of people more than another. It is unavoidable. I think the big hoop-la over Eve is just because they're catering to a group most people don't now of days. If Eve stops being good to that group and focuses on another (because it is impossible to please everyone at once) then they will lose the people that aren't unhappy. Any way a company goes, it smells of failure in one section and success in another.
Very , very well put HJ will follow the line of EVE and cater fro the market area Simutronics know best, one of the reasons a few dissenters moan about not enough communication, updates. Roll on HJ i jut can't wait....
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel