I thought the article was spot on in many ways although I've never subscribed to the rational that if there's something worse, then it is ok. Just because gold farming/selling doesn't destroy games the way some people over-exagerate doesn't mean it is good for MMO's. I would rather see the company that created the game selling gold than some third world grinder, they afterall didn't create the game so why should they benefit financially from it. It does help level the field a bit between powergamers and casuals with big bank accounts but what about casual gamers without spare money to waste on virtual items? Those gamers which some refer to as core gamers get to feel even more screwed because now it's not just the college kids who skip class blowing them away in virtual power but also the overpayed former powergamers as well effectively dividing the player base. Not to mention many games (and I don't agree with the practice) intentionally make the game a grind for cash or items as an endgame. The more people who reach that endgame quickly via powergaming or the secondary market cost the developers money in subscriptions. So why is it wrong for them to try and give thier games some longevity? Personally I think more games should subscribe to the old DnD pen and paper model where money had a very small impact compared to character progression, customization, and developement. Rarely at least with the people I gamed with was gear more important than how you built your character and with most of my DM's (who were very item stingy) you could play for months without a single upgrade in gear. BUT the adventures were so fun that getting to play them was the reward. Grinding through a bunch of crap for a great item will never be better than playing a well thought out and engaging quest for no reward at all. Just like buying 10billion gold to be the most powerful Warrior (just like the other 10 warriors who have the exact same gear/skills/etc...) will not feel as satisfying as being the least powerful Warrior which you designed, levelled and hand sculpted yourself. The secondary market is not the problem in my opinion because the stagnant EQ gear grind model is what gives it it's value. Take that away or change it to a diminished version and you effectively reduce the impact of everything based on it.
I totally agree with you! Item-centric game design is just one of the many problems with mmorpg models compared to the traditions they are descended from - be it pnp or literature/movies!
Kudos to Dan for bringing up the fact that in many cases its the MMOG devs themselves who create situations where buying gold becomes an awfully big temptation. Here's a good example -I just joined some friends in moving to a WOW PVP server, and am amazed at how unbalanced low-level PVP has become thanks to twinks. For those who don't play WOW, Blizzard allows high level players to buy powerful enchants costing dozens or hundreds of gold. With these completely lopsided boosts twinks can pretty much one shot kill my "average" newbie character. The battle grounds and even world PVP is dominated by twinks, so it looks like I'm going to be the severe underdog until I get a character to high level and personally farm enough gold to "start over" with a new properly equipped lowbie twink of my own.
Or I could simply go out and buy a few hundred gold for less than $50 - which if you look at as purely a rational market decision is far, far cheaper than spending hundreds of hours to get to 70 and then more hours spent grinding. I'm not going to actually buy gold, but then again I blame WOW's devs for creating a situation where brand new players to the game or returning players are severely handicapped out of the gate. Players should only have access to level-appropriate weapons and gear - that's gameplay balancing 101. If you're going to give veteran players a huge advantage by allowing them to buy level 60ish enchants for their level 19 rogue, don't be surprised when other players start turning to gold farmers to have a chance at even competing on a PVP server.
And don't get me started about the top-heaviness of the WOW economy, how money is still pretty hard to earn through drops and questiny until you hit Outland, where the game suddenly becomes "Who Wants to be a Millionaire."
Truth be told, only two things keep me from buying gold, and neither of them have to do with a sense of "keeping the playing field level" since Blizzard has gone out of their way to make sure their game is no longer balanced even at level 20. The first thing is my personal integrity and the second thing is the constant bombardment of "buy our gold at lowest price" messages that gold farmers spam across general and trade channels. They've even use the "looking for group" function so that when you think you've just joined a group to do an instance suddenly you're stuck in party chat with a gold farmer rep. I hate telemarketers in real life and I'm sure as hell not going to buy from them when they're pestering me in-game.
All you whinners ,about how gold farmers destroy your games ,are pathetic. There has not been a single game without farmers, So just STFU, unfortunatley for you guys WOW was not the first MMORPG. as the article states ,play on a PvP server; or actually better yet ,quit playing WOW , since all gold farmers are in that game nowadays.I went back to EQ1 and no problems there! WoW has the most farmers since is the game with the most demand.(why is beyond me). and Gold farmers do not screw up economy , the Elitists guilds do by charging way to much for trivial items which in turn force people to actually go out and buy gold, and the 10 year olds that undercut everyone in the auction house or bazaar to prices that actually are way too low because they believe that everyone else is trying to rip people off. so we have the 2 extremes. Lets face it the Demand for the Gold needs to exist before the farmers sell the gold. I have no problem with them at all , if you have the cash to spend in make believe items then more power to you. all the rest bitch and whine because A)they are jealous ,they cant afford it. B)They are so naive , that actually believe that they suck because of gold farmers , when in fact ,farmers or not they are not competitive enough to play a simple game of economics. Now one thing that they use to ruin the game is when they spam. Games should go back to the old UO style chat system
I don't think City of Heroes and City of Villians have farmers. Farmers impact everyone not just the people who use them. MMORPGs are about what you have accomplished in the game and not what you've made in real life.
I am not for or against them, however keep the coin in the WEST. Any population which allows it's self to be lead by a bunch of muppets deserves all it gets. Bring out the Water cannons and panzerfausts i say. The more coin which goes into that country will flow straight into the top brasses pockets and not the people who really need it so what's the point of allowing it to filter there at all. Like many of hard earnt coin it will just get spent on tanks.
Not a fan of gold farming. Never have been never will be. I am still on the side that thinks without goldfarming a game would be that much better.
Yeah, I don't like them either and their spam in game causes lots of lag and is disruptive to game play. If I wanted to see or hear someone selling something I'd watch TV.
I hate these articles, the purpose of which is to make this cheating crap seem like a debateable issue. Because of course if it is debateable then it's just a choice. And if it's just a choice, then cheaters should be free to go right on cheating. And mmorpg.com can go right on taking money from the gold sellers. Yeah, we see through this guys. But go right on with your monthly rationalizations. Maybe some 12 year old too inept to play a game himself will believe you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
... What idiot would pay for an account on a server like this lol? much, much more profitable to make money on servers where there is no death penalty, no FFA PVP, and no looting
But I say what is the point in striving to get better stuff and not be able to wear it? If I can't make my toon look better, why would I bother to loot the stuff in the first place? FFA PVP severs might have a small hardcore player base, but the operative word here is small.
I think a pvp/rvr system more like the upcoming WAR is better. In that game, you can kill anyone on the opposing side and loot them, but the dead player loses self respect (important in my opinion) not his gear. That way people kep coming back and don't go offline in a huff or have to go grind somewhere to get more gear... and they can wear their best stuff to look pretty even as corpses -- very important
The way to make botters and selling gold obsolete is simple: play WAR or other games that are not gear-centric and stop chasing epic gear. As long as there is uber BOE stuff that gives an advantage over other players in a game, there will be people willing to pay real money to get it.
why are using WAR that game is not out thus you must make assumptions how it will go.
EVE has FFA PVP and the audience is not small I am not sure what you are driving at. Lineage also enjoys huge pops.
The main advantage of FFA PVP is that it allows PVPers a method to get good gear without grinding PVE for it. Next, it enforces risk versus reward. It is not some fake PVP where I cannot make an impact in a long term war. FFA PVP with Looting allows us to fight real wars and make a -real- impact in a war. When I loot my victim, I am setting them back thus making a big win for my guild.
Also, Looting + Item Decay makes items more expendable. Why would you pay a lot of cash for an uber geared toon in a game whereas you can be robbed blind the minute you logon? You wont
Risk Vs reward is self regulating system. Nooblets will lose all they own if they dont know how to play. So if you dont deserve your gear, you will lose it fast when there is no safe zones to farm
There might be other solutions but I always like to point out self regulating systems help curb that. However, the farmers are the loudest, most vocal out of everyone when they get killed and looted and the developers always seem to go out of their way to protect them
I dont see how wAR can be so dependant on player skill anyway when everything you do is dependant on stats and dice rolls.
Supply and demand. What is wrong with that? China and other exploited countries have been taking advantage of the american dollar for years! What should be any different about this?
I thought the article was spot on in many ways although I've never subscribed to the rational that if there's something worse, then it is ok. Just because gold farming/selling doesn't destroy games the way some people over-exagerate doesn't mean it is good for MMO's. I would rather see the company that created the game selling gold than some third world grinder, they afterall didn't create the game so why should they benefit financially from it. It does help level the field a bit between powergamers and casuals with big bank accounts but what about casual gamers without spare money to waste on virtual items? Those gamers which some refer to as core gamers get to feel even more screwed because now it's not just the college kids who skip class blowing them away in virtual power but also the overpayed former powergamers as well effectively dividing the player base. Not to mention many games (and I don't agree with the practice) intentionally make the game a grind for cash or items as an endgame. The more people who reach that endgame quickly via powergaming or the secondary market cost the developers money in subscriptions. So why is it wrong for them to try and give thier games some longevity? Personally I think more games should subscribe to the old DnD pen and paper model where money had a very small impact compared to character progression, customization, and developement. Rarely at least with the people I gamed with was gear more important than how you built your character and with most of my DM's (who were very item stingy) you could play for months without a single upgrade in gear. BUT the adventures were so fun that getting to play them was the reward. Grinding through a bunch of crap for a great item will never be better than playing a well thought out and engaging quest for no reward at all. Just like buying 10billion gold to be the most powerful Warrior (just like the other 10 warriors who have the exact same gear/skills/etc...) will not feel as satisfying as being the least powerful Warrior which you designed, levelled and hand sculpted yourself. The secondary market is not the problem in my opinion because the stagnant EQ gear grind model is what gives it it's value. Take that away or change it to a diminished version and you effectively reduce the impact of everything based on it.
I totally agree with you! Item-centric game design is just one of the many problems with mmorpg models compared to the traditions they are descended from - be it pnp or literature/movies!
Ah this is a great post much better then my points. I'd like this very much to go back to the old ways. I pulled ouyt my old PnP rules book the other day have yet to see heavy itemization in it
Supply and demand. What is wrong with that? China and other exploited countries have been taking advantage of the american dollar for years! What should be any different about this?
although, in principal, there is some truth in what you say there is still the moral aspect!
The terms and conditions of most mmorpg state that farming to sell IP for profit is not acceptable. There are many reasons for this as this thread illustrates.
If we adopted your theory without constraints we may as well say it is ok to kidnap Eastern European women and sell them as sex slaves on the (black) market as prostitutes for wealthy Western Europe. The pimps have a demand so IT IS ok to supply!
My experience with RMT stems mainly from my first MMO experience, Final Fantasy XI:
1. RMT monopolizing resources for gaining income (24 hours a day, possibly via bot programs that create an unfair advantage).
2. Inflating the price of said resources pn the Auction House since they are monopolizing their production, i.e. Elm Logs necessary for creating shihei (a very important reagent).
This is just one example of many where RMT had played a role in disrupting the economy of FFXI. I made very good money farming Elm in Ghelshba Outpost, then a gaggle of RMT step in and team the entire area for months, 24hrs a day. Then I make some decent money farming Wind Crystals in Tahrongi Canyon, then another gaggle of RMT step in and do the exact same thing. What results is a very frustrating experience. Players on a "normal" schedule who may attempt the above steps may have a similar impact on the game economy, but to a lesser extent as they would be less likely to be farming the same area 24 hrs a day/7 days a week, and certainly not for real life cash but rather their own virtual gain.
My counter argument to this, however, is that the fact that RMT can disrupt the game economy in FFXI so much is a game design flaw. Looking back, FFXI's economic system is a bit utopian as it didn't take into consideration the possibilities of the above referenced actions. Many things could have been done from a developer's advantage point in offering other means to obtain these resources as accessibly, or limiting the amount of gains allowed over time. Instead, they have spent most of their energy policing RMT groups, and at a time very late in the game's lifespan.
Ultimately, I would like to play an MMORPG that is more economically balanced, allowing everyone the same opportunity to advance financially in-game without the intercedence of RMT, cash shops, or other means of using real life money to advance in the game (legitimate or otherwise). These aren't single console games with cheat codes or secret passwords, it's an MMO whose success is fueled by community. I want to be rewarded for my skill, and respected for the time I have invested in a game. Being outdone by those with deeper pockets is insulting and antithisent to the spirit of gaming imho.
I think what most people that say Gold farming and RMT are not a problem miss one huge issue.
While some or maybe even many of the Gold farmers are just farming using normal ingame methods another large part of them are not so benign. They will do what ever it takes to get the gold to sell including among other things macros, game hacks and hacking accounts. And these are things that will cause real problems for normal players.
In a way it can be seen a bit like the real life drug market. While the drugs themselves doesn't have to be dangerous they will because of their addictiveness force their users to go further and further to acquire them, which in the end starts to include stuff like stealing and murdering.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I have no problem ith RMT in a game where it's part of the design, I simply won't play it but I don't have any problems with others playing it. For a game where RMT isn't part of the design it's simply cheating, again I have no problem with cheating in a single player game but I do have a problem with cheating and cheaters in multi player games. If I play chess with someone and that person suddenly has all his pawns replaced by queens it's no longer a game I enjoy, if I play poker and someone in that hand suddenly gets to pick 5 cards of his choice from the deck it's no longer fun... Why am I supposed to just accept it when people cheat in an MMO?
First of all, I'm not a RMT supporter ... it isn't that I *can't* spend the real life money to buy in-game currency, it is simply that (like many others here) I just won't ...
That having been said however ... a post above complains about having their farm grounds taken over by those presumed to be participants in the RMT ... is it not every bit as possible that the person/persons saw for themselves the marketability of said items at auction and is just another out-of-work gamer (thus with lots of time on their hands) choosing to maximize their profit by following market trends (or perhaps that gamer's character since in FFXI the seller's name appears on the sale log at auction) ... several times back when I played that particular game (especially during a stretch where I was out of work myself) I had folks accuse me of being a gil farmer simply because I played a lot, didn't talk much, and was camping high-value NM drops to sell to save up to buy myself a few high-ticket items ... when in reality I was simply using my free time to play a lot, wasn't often in a talkative mood, and was very single-minded towards achieving my goals ...
It seems that the assumption is that anyone who just happens to figure out what you do to make money and displaces you (shall I quote the principles behind survival of the fittest ?) is that they are automatically a member of the RMT community ... I'm not saying some, or even perhaps most, aren't ... but it isn't automatically all - no matter how convenient that would be to ease the feelings of inadequacy you have over being cut out ...
Another argument thrown about is that it is "against the ToS" ... so is harassment in many games, and the act of repeatedly killing another player simply because you *think* they might be an RMTer falls into this catagory ... sadly, you may well see a ban for doing so before the RMT player does for selling currency because it is easier to prove ...
Finally, we have the notion that currency buying creates inflation and thus makes it impossible for new players ... bull puckey ... I'll once again use an example from my days in FFXI (which someone said was one of the worst affected) ... yes, the auction value of one item may have doubled or tripled, especially at certain times of the year (Xmas in particular) ... however, it's relational value always seemed to remain unchanged ... that is to say, on the server I was on the price of one particular item may have dramatically increased ... but say that said item was roughly worth as much as, for example, the selling price of two Astral Rings and an Emperor Hairpin ... this was true at it's lower price and the same was true at the inflated price ... I found several relational equivalencies at various level ranges and guess what ... they also remained unchanged, and a couple them were interlocked (one item in more than one relational model) ... this blows that theory out of the water, at least in this particular game on that particular server ...
It may sound from these statements that I support the RMT ... but I don't. If asked in a poll by the game company whether I want it or not in their game environment, I will say no. And that's about as far as I'll go. I used to take a more active stance against the RMT myself, but have long since mellowed out. Risk and reward ... those paying for the services of the RMT are taking a risk for that reward ... many game makers will ban accounts that can be definitively linked to the RMT, whether that be buying OR selling ... however, even in games that do not expressly forbid it, I personally do not choose to participate ... that's MY choice, and I am not about to impose my decisions or moralities upon others no matter how great the temptation is to do so ... that's on them, and perhaps the game manufacturers themselves
But back to the topic at hand ...
Several analogies have been thrown out for discussion here ... the dry cleaner one, the darts one, and many others ... let me add one more to the list ... Yea, I know ... this analogy is no less flawed than any of the others. However if taken more in spirit than in the literal text, I think it illustratres things quite nicely.
Jim, Bob and Dave all play the same game.
Before their parents allow them to play said game, their lawns must be mowed. (Similar in a FFXI sense to the farming of non-experience mobs that must take place to have the money to afford the items necessary to join a group to fight experience-yeilding ones - and this is common to many games I've played). All three have the same size yard. All three also have the same eight hours of time left over after sleep, school, and family commitments are taken into account.
Jim's father is frugal and still has a walk-behind mower. As a result it takes Jim four hours to mow his yard, leaving the poor guy only 4 hours to game. (Let's equate this to the gamer who works but does not choose to buy online currency.)
Bob's dad went out and bought a riding mower, and subsequently Bob can mow his yard in only an hour. With 7 hours of his 8 remaining, he has nearly twice the time to spend in the game as Jim does, and thus will advance much more swiftly. (This is the out-of-work gamer with all kinds of free time on his hands.)
Dave is stuck in the same boat as Jim (with a walk-behind mower), but has a way to make enough money in a single hour to pay the neighbor kid to mow his yard for him. The lawn takes the same four hours to mow as Jim's does, but this puts him on equal footing with Bob since he has effectively 'bought back' three of them and thus can partake of the same level of enjoyment as Bob. (Here we have the currency buyer, with the neighbor boy playing the role of the RMT.)
Now ... let's for a moment presume there to be three alternate realities where there exist a Jim, a Jimmy, and a James ... all three wish they had the same seven hours to play as their friends do, but the difference is in how they let that desire affect them ...
Jim thinks that what Bob does is okay, but is infuriated by Dave's methods ... in his opinion, Dave cheats because he doesn't mow the yard himself and Bob shares his opinion ... neither is very shy about letting everyone know their feelings on the matter ... Dave's parents vocally sympathize with the two boys, and tell Dave he can't pay the kid next door to do it anymore - but since the yard is getting mowed do nothing about it when he continues to do so (Dave's parents are much like game companies in this respect - they may posture a bit, but the RMT are also paying subscribers so in the end nothing is done) ...
Jimmy is pretty sour about the methods of both ... he tosses rocks into Bob's yard hoping to foul up the riding mower so it will break so that he will have to use the push mower that his dad kept around for just that occasion (i.e. get a job and therefore not have as much free time anymore) ... and he regularly beats up the younger neighbor boy that Dave pays hoping this physical abuse will drive him away (which much like the RMTer it doesn't, since he actually needs the money)
But James is a little more mature about it ... sure, he may not like being at a disadvantage compared to his two friends ... but he realizes that everyone involved does what they feel they have to do, and doesn't let the actions of others detract from his personal enjoyment of the game when he finally has the time to play it ...
Let's step outside the box for a moment and catch our breath... Why do we play MMO's? If your answer was for entertainment, you are correct. Think about it. Why would anyone pay $50 for a game simply to pay $100's more for items and power leveling. To me, that makes absolutely no sense at all. Your paying $50 for a game and then paying someone else to play it for you. That's like paying $10 for a movie and then paying $50 for someone to go watch it for you. People, MMO's are for entertainment, thats all. So, to see people try and rationalize gold farming as a positive aspect to MMO's is a contradiction on a massive level. MMO's aren't about being the best, atleast not for me. When I played EQ, I was always behind in levels and items, but somehow I managed to still enjoy 4 years playing it. Same thing with DAoC and once again, I played that game for 4 years and I still never reached Champion Level 5. So, to all you rich people out there, that can't see MMO's for their entertainment value, I have one request. Buy yourself a nice car and then pay me $500 a week to drive it for you and you won't hear me complain about your gold and item purchases in MMO's.
Some people find the grind to make money distasteful ... personally, I enjoy it sometimes but at other times wish it didn't exist ... but my answer is to 'do without' rather than pay for it ... that's just me though ... if there's an item I want badly enough, I'll camp it or farm for the money to buy it - if I don't, then apparently I can do without it ...
I don't understand the paying to be powerleveled part either ... to me it's like buying an account, and is also something that I'd never do ... then again though, there are likely those that don't enjoy the long grind and would prefer to just begin at endgame to reap the rewards and fun of a high level without actually having to work to get there ... even if it means they didn't learn to really play their character properly ... perhaps for them, that is the 'entertainment' you speak of ...
Not to mention there will always be those for which the strive for #1 is their sole motivation ... while I may feel sorry for them, it is not within my rights to criticize them if that's how they see 'fun' ...
The long and short of it all however is entertainment value, as you say, and people find their bliss in different ways ...thankfully, you used the phrases "to me" and "at least not for me" in the appropriate places, because I'd hate to think you were trying to define 'entertainment' or 'fun' for anyone other than yourself ...
People need something to complain about. So they complain about gold farmers.
I could care less what other people do. If the devs were so against it they could design a game where it is exceedingly frustrating for gold farmers to exist. It isn't that hard to snuff it out if they really wanted to.
I really think it is just a matter of people needing to constantly complain for no apparent reason.
I have read enough. This is simple. Selling gold in a game IS against the law.
No, it's not. Are you honestly that stupid?
Seriously though, what's with all the animosity against those who decide to buy or sell gold? Seriously? Is it jealousy? What of people who sell their accounts? Are they evil too because they want to make something of their time and dedication? Honestly, I dont understand the _why_.
time = money
Some people have the time to grind endlessly to get all the uber gear possible... some people dont. Those that dont sometimes use this little equation, and convert their money into time. Why is that bad? Can someone answer honestly?
Actually... It *is* against the rules of most MMOs out there - something called a EULA or a ToS, etc. etc. They verbally prohibit RMT. And these companies suspend and/or ban accounts for the activity. So, while it's not "against the law", it is definitely against the rules.
Another problem are the tactics used by the gold farmers to obtain their money in many cases - they use 3rd-party "bots" - also prohibited in the EULA/ToS - to monopolize rare mobs that drop highly sought drops, among other tactics.
The illogic in the whole pro-RMT case is just ridiculous. These games are set up with a standard set of rules and challenges that apply equally to everyone - whether you have 2 hours a day or 12, you will face the same challenges in progressing as everyone else. That you don't have as much time as someone else is not "unfair", it does not make you somehow "special", nor does it entitle you to a free-pass around what the people who've put more time into the game than you (that's plain common sense) have to do, and - despite your strongest or most powerful (to you) arguments - it is still against the ToS and is a bannable offense. You can disagree with it all you want... you will still be banned if you're caught doing it. So hey... argue, debate, justify and whine about "limited time" all you want... you're still wrong.
Blaming the devs for a "flawed" game system? Again... completely ridiculous argument. If you disagree with the way the game is setup and you can't accept it as it's setup - here's a strong dose of common sense - Don't Play. No one's forcing you to keep paying the subscription or keep playing. Cancel your sub, then you're not spending anything - on the game, or on buying your money.
Claiming it don't affect the economy? Ask people in FFXI since SE has seriously and consistently cracked down on it in that game what they think. I'd say an emperor hairpin that could go for 20 million gil when RMT was at its worst coming down to 500-600 thousand gil since since they've started fighting it is proof positive that RMT can and *does* affect in-game economies. I would say that a Jujitsu Gi,which I bought at 450k pre-RMT, that went up to around 10 million when RMT was at its worst and is now down to 150k since they've been addressing the RMT and related problems is proof that it affects in-game economies. I can go on and on and on with examples. So, please... put that theory to rest. It's wrong.
So... to the pro RMT folks... Let's review:
1. Your lack of free time does not make it "ok".
2. Your desire to "keep up with your friends" doesn't make it "ok"
3. Your disagreement with how the devs designed the game does not make it "ok".
4. Your disagreement with the ToS does not make it "ok".
Despite any hair-brained arguments in favor of it, RMT is against the ToS/EULA, MMO companies can and do regularly ban accounts for it... That, by itself, should be proof enough for anyone with a lick of common sense that RMT is not "okay", except in games that, by design, support it.
But by all means, keep arguing it... keep buying it. When your account has been banned for it, good luck arguing your points in support for it and let's see how far that gets you.
The intellectual dishonesty and utter ignorance on display in threads like this is staggering.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually... It *is* against the rules of most MMOs out there - something called a EULA or a ToS, etc. etc. They verbally prohibit RMT. And these companies suspend and/or ban accounts for the activity. So, while it's not "against the law", it is definitely against the rules.
Another problem are the tactics used by the gold farmers to obtain their money in many cases - they use 3rd-party "bots" - also prohibited in the EULA/ToS - to monopolize rare mobs that drop highly sought drops, among other tactics.
The illogic in the whole pro-RMT case is just ridiculous. These games are set up with a standard set of rules and challenges that apply equally to everyone - whether you have 2 hours a day or 12, you will face the same challenges in progressing as everyone else. That you don't have as much time as someone else is not "unfair", it does not make you somehow "special", nor does it entitle you to a free-pass around what the people who've put more time into the game than you (that's plain common sense) have to do, and - despite your strongest or most powerful (to you) arguments - it is still against the ToS and is a bannable offense. You can disagree with it all you want... you will still be banned if you're caught doing it. So hey... argue, debate, justify and whine about "limited time" all you want... you're still wrong.
Blaming the devs for a "flawed" game system? Again... completely ridiculous argument. If you disagree with the way the game is setup and you can't accept it as it's setup - here's a strong dose of common sense - Don't Play. No one's forcing you to keep paying the subscription or keep playing. Cancel your sub, then you're not spending anything - on the game, or on buying your money.
No, I'll play the game if I want. Deal with it. I'll buy money if I want, deal with it. Going to a concert is much more expensive then buying a CD, but sometimes I pay for the concert cause it is better. Playing an MMO and paying someone to do the grind so you can enjoy the good parts is more expensive then playing it straight, but sometimes it is worth the money.
Claiming it don't affect the economy? Ask people in FFXI since SE has seriously and consistently cracked down on it in that game what they think. I'd say an emperor hairpin that could go for 20 million gil when RMT was at its worst coming down to 500-600 thousand gil since since they've started fighting it is proof positive that RMT can and *does* affect in-game economies. I would say that a Jujitsu Gi,which I bought at 450k pre-RMT, that went up to around 10 million when RMT was at its worst and is now down to 150k since they've been addressing the RMT and related problems is proof that it affects in-game economies. I can go on and on and on with examples. So, please... put that theory to rest. It's wrong.
So... to the pro RMT folks... Let's review:
1. Your lack of free time does not make it "ok".
Yes, it does. I already pay for landscapers so I don't have to mow my lawn because I work a lot. Some of us have careers, we aren't sitting in our mom's basement or failing out of school or working some shit job for shit money.
2. Your desire to "keep up with your friends" doesn't make it "ok"
Yes, it does. Games shouldn't require constant 40+ hour a week grind sessions to keep up. If I enjoy PvP, and it costs me a little money, then that's what I'll do.
3. Your disagreement with how the devs designed the game does not make it "ok".
Yes, I'm the customer. They need to make a better product. As new MMO developers design games that don't include grind they will get more and more customers. And they'll find there is a lot less RMT when people don't want to avoid playing their game.
4. Your disagreement with the ToS does not make it "ok".
The TOS/EULA won't hold up in court. That is why no game company has ever brought it too court.
Despite any hair-brained arguments in favor of it, RMT is against the ToS/EULA, MMO companies can and do regularly ban accounts for it... That, by itself, should be proof enough for anyone with a lick of common sense that RMT is not "okay", except in games that, by design, support it.
But by all means, keep arguing it... keep buying it. When your account has been banned for it, good luck arguing your points in support for it and let's see how far that gets you.
The intellectual dishonesty and utter ignorance on display in threads like this is staggering.
Let's step outside the box for a moment and catch our breath... Why do we play MMO's? If your answer was for entertainment, you are correct. Think about it. Why would anyone pay $50 for a game simply to pay $100's more for items and power leveling. To me, that makes absolutely no sense at all. Your paying $50 for a game and then paying someone else to play it for you. That's like paying $10 for a movie and then paying $50 for someone to go watch it for you. People, MMO's are for entertainment, thats all. So, to see people try and rationalize gold farming as a positive aspect to MMO's is a contradiction on a massive level. MMO's aren't about being the best, atleast not for me. When I played EQ, I was always behind in levels and items, but somehow I managed to still enjoy 4 years playing it. Same thing with DAoC and once again, I played that game for 4 years and I still never reached Champion Level 5. So, to all you rich people out there, that can't see MMO's for their entertainment value, I have one request. Buy yourself a nice car and then pay me $500 a week to drive it for you and you won't hear me complain about your gold and item purchases in MMO's.
/cheer
I have never had the uber armor or weapons in any mmorpg I've played but I still have fun!
For me it's not about having the best there is, I don't need it to have a good time. I do however like my games commercial free. lol
As I said before, I know where to go if I want to buy something. I would never pay real money for a game item or to have someone level up my character. Leveling is part of the fun and so is finding other ways to survive without the best armor or weapons.
Actually... It *is* against the rules of most MMOs out there - something called a EULA or a ToS, etc. etc. They verbally prohibit RMT. And these companies suspend and/or ban accounts for the activity. So, while it's not "against the law", it is definitely against the rules.
Another problem are the tactics used by the gold farmers to obtain their money in many cases - they use 3rd-party "bots" - also prohibited in the EULA/ToS - to monopolize rare mobs that drop highly sought drops, among other tactics.
The illogic in the whole pro-RMT case is just ridiculous. These games are set up with a standard set of rules and challenges that apply equally to everyone - whether you have 2 hours a day or 12, you will face the same challenges in progressing as everyone else. That you don't have as much time as someone else is not "unfair", it does not make you somehow "special", nor does it entitle you to a free-pass around what the people who've put more time into the game than you (that's plain common sense) have to do, and - despite your strongest or most powerful (to you) arguments - it is still against the ToS and is a bannable offense. You can disagree with it all you want... you will still be banned if you're caught doing it. So hey... argue, debate, justify and whine about "limited time" all you want... you're still wrong.
Blaming the devs for a "flawed" game system? Again... completely ridiculous argument. If you disagree with the way the game is setup and you can't accept it as it's setup - here's a strong dose of common sense - Don't Play. No one's forcing you to keep paying the subscription or keep playing. Cancel your sub, then you're not spending anything - on the game, or on buying your money.
No, I'll play the game if I want. Deal with it. I'll buy money if I want, deal with it. Going to a concert is much more expensive then buying a CD, but sometimes I pay for the concert cause it is better. Playing an MMO and paying someone to do the grind so you can enjoy the good parts is more expensive then playing it straight, but sometimes it is worth the money.
Claiming it don't affect the economy? Ask people in FFXI since SE has seriously and consistently cracked down on it in that game what they think. I'd say an emperor hairpin that could go for 20 million gil when RMT was at its worst coming down to 500-600 thousand gil since since they've started fighting it is proof positive that RMT can and *does* affect in-game economies. I would say that a Jujitsu Gi,which I bought at 450k pre-RMT, that went up to around 10 million when RMT was at its worst and is now down to 150k since they've been addressing the RMT and related problems is proof that it affects in-game economies. I can go on and on and on with examples. So, please... put that theory to rest. It's wrong.
So... to the pro RMT folks... Let's review:
1. Your lack of free time does not make it "ok".
Yes, it does. I already pay for landscapers so I don't have to mow my lawn because I work a lot. Some of us have careers, we aren't sitting in our mom's basement or failing out of school or working some shit job for shit money.
2. Your desire to "keep up with your friends" doesn't make it "ok"
Yes, it does. Games shouldn't require constant 40+ hour a week grind sessions to keep up. If I enjoy PvP, and it costs me a little money, then that's what I'll do.
3. Your disagreement with how the devs designed the game does not make it "ok".
Yes, I'm the customer. They need to make a better product. As new MMO developers design games that don't include grind they will get more and more customers. And they'll find there is a lot less RMT when people don't want to avoid playing their game.
4. Your disagreement with the ToS does not make it "ok".
The TOS/EULA won't hold up in court. That is why no game company has ever brought it too court.
Despite any hair-brained arguments in favor of it, RMT is against the ToS/EULA, MMO companies can and do regularly ban accounts for it... That, by itself, should be proof enough for anyone with a lick of common sense that RMT is not "okay", except in games that, by design, support it.
But by all means, keep arguing it... keep buying it. When your account has been banned for it, good luck arguing your points in support for it and let's see how far that gets you.
The intellectual dishonesty and utter ignorance on display in threads like this is staggering.
lol... Whatever, man. Do what you want. It's your time and money you're putting at risk because you can't play by the rules of the game. I hope you realize that the reality of the situation - as many as10s of thousands of banned accounts per month in FFXI alone - agrees with my point-of-view, and not yours. I hope you're not too delusional to at least acknowledge that.
And, the "it won't hold up in court" argument is so ridiculous I can't believe people even bring it up. You are agreeing to their ToS when you play the game... A court order isn't necessary for them to close down your account for violating it. That 10s of thousands of accounts are banned for those very reasons all the time is proof enough of this. You want to be an idiot and play Russian-Roullette with the time and money you've spent.. go right ahead. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I actually find it incredibly poetic and quite funny that people who, like yourself, feel that they're somehow exempt from the rules everyone is held to are proven wrong all the time by being banned. So... preach on, brother. Keep deluding yourself. In the end.. your account will be banned. Not mine.
I have a full-time job and I only have limited time to play as well. I don't believe that exempts me from playing by the rules. I certainly don't feel that gives me the "right" to buy my way through the game. If my time becomes prohibitive to my being able to progress at the rate I'd like.. I'll take it as a hint that maybe it's not the game for me. I'm not going to blame the devs. I'm certainly not going to concoct some absurd theory on how the rules somehow don't apply to me. I just can't be that ignorant. But I realize that might be too much common-sense for you to comprehend.. so no hard feelings if you don't.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
lol... Whatever, man. Do what you want. It's your time and money you're putting at risk because you can't play by the rules of the game. I hope you realize that the reality of the situation - as many as10s of thousands of banned accounts per month in FFXI alone - agrees with my point-of-view, and not yours. I hope you're not too delusional to at least acknowledge that.
And, the "it won't hold up in court" argument is so ridiculous I can't believe people even bring it up. You are agreeing to their ToS when you play the game... A court order isn't necessary for them to close down your account for violating it. That 10s of thousands of accounts are banned for those very reasons all the time is proof enough of this. You want to be an idiot and play Russian-Roullette with the time and money you've spent.. go right ahead. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I actually find it incredibly poetic and quite funny that people who, like yourself, feel that they're somehow exempt from the rules everyone is held to are proven wrong all the time by being banned. So... preach on, brother. Keep deluding yourself. In the end.. your account will be banned. Not mine.
I have a full-time job and I only have limited time to play as well. I don't believe that exempts me from playing by the rules. I certainly don't feel that gives me the "right" to buy my way through the game. If my time becomes prohibitive to my being able to progress at the rate I'd like.. I'll take it as a hint that maybe it's not the game for me. I'm not going to blame the devs. I'm certainly not going to concoct some absurd theory on how the rules somehow don't apply to me. I just can't be that ignorant. But I realize that might be too much common-sense for you to comprehend.. so no hard feelings if you don't.
I've done a little gold buying, and a lot of account trading. I haven't gotten banned once. For all the bluster games companies put out, they almost never ever ban the Western gold buyer. That would mean losing subs, lots of them, and costing them money. When you hear about a bunch of accounts getting banned they are all farmer accounts. Guess what, the day after they get banned they are up and running again on a new account. The game companies love this. They get lots of new sales, and lots of subscription money while they person re-levels and re-farms. Sure, they throw a few bones out there to seem on the up and up, but at the end of the day RMT is still there.
Game companies have the resources to shut down RMT. They can track every transaction in-game. If they really desired to they would shut it down. How do you think Blizzard gets its 8 mil sub number. I'll tell you, gold farmers. Over half the subs are from China. They throw out a few things to pay lip service to the RMT hater, but that's it. No real action.
As for legality, game companies have purposely stayed out of court. They are scared to death a court might rule that virtual property is real property. Any lawsuits you see are related to spamming. And gold farmers aren't afraid. Remember the touted lawsuit against peons4hire. Go to their website right now. They are still doing business.
lol... Whatever, man. Do what you want. It's your time and money you're putting at risk because you can't play by the rules of the game. I hope you realize that the reality of the situation - as many as10s of thousands of banned accounts per month in FFXI alone - agrees with my point-of-view, and not yours. I hope you're not too delusional to at least acknowledge that.
And, the "it won't hold up in court" argument is so ridiculous I can't believe people even bring it up. You are agreeing to their ToS when you play the game... A court order isn't necessary for them to close down your account for violating it. That 10s of thousands of accounts are banned for those very reasons all the time is proof enough of this. You want to be an idiot and play Russian-Roullette with the time and money you've spent.. go right ahead. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I actually find it incredibly poetic and quite funny that people who, like yourself, feel that they're somehow exempt from the rules everyone is held to are proven wrong all the time by being banned. So... preach on, brother. Keep deluding yourself. In the end.. your account will be banned. Not mine.
I have a full-time job and I only have limited time to play as well. I don't believe that exempts me from playing by the rules. I certainly don't feel that gives me the "right" to buy my way through the game. If my time becomes prohibitive to my being able to progress at the rate I'd like.. I'll take it as a hint that maybe it's not the game for me. I'm not going to blame the devs. I'm certainly not going to concoct some absurd theory on how the rules somehow don't apply to me. I just can't be that ignorant. But I realize that might be too much common-sense for you to comprehend.. so no hard feelings if you don't.
I've done a little gold buying, and a lot of account trading. I haven't gotten banned once. For all the bluster games companies put out, they almost never ever ban the Western gold buyer. That would mean losing subs, lots of them, and costing them money. When you hear about a bunch of accounts getting banned they are all farmer accounts. Guess what, the day after they get banned they are up and running again on a new account. The game companies love this. They get lots of new sales, and lots of subscription money while they person re-levels and re-farms. Sure, they throw a few bones out there to seem on the up and up, but at the end of the day RMT is still there.
Game companies have the resources to shut down RMT. They can track every transaction in-game. If they really desired to they would shut it down. How do you think Blizzard gets its 8 mil sub number. I'll tell you, gold farmers. Over half the subs are from China. They throw out a few things to pay lip service to the RMT hater, but that's it. No real action.
As for legality, game companies have purposely stayed out of court. They are scared to death a court might rule that virtual property is real property. Any lawsuits you see are related to spamming. And gold farmers aren't afraid. Remember the touted lawsuit against peons4hire. Go to their website right now. They are still doing business.
Sooo... because you haven't been caught yet... that makes it okay? Some sound logic there.
Beyond that... just more of the same rationalization and rhetoric I've seen time and again by your type. You frame it a bit more intelligently than others.. but it's the same crap that's been regurgitated over and over.
You don't have to buy money to get through these games. You aren't entitled to circumvent the rules everyone else is held to, because you think your personal circumstances make you special or something - if you do, then I'd suggest getting over yourself. I know that Square, at least, is beginning to go after those who buy money as well... so whether other companies are or not remains to be seen.
RMT does absolutely, unquestionably affect the in-game economies. I have seen this happen first hand, both before and after, and it is 100% indisputable fact. Bringing a bunch of ill-gotten money into the game brings down the value of the in-game currency, and causes prices to go up, making items extremely difficult to get for legitimate players who actually *play* the game as intended. And let's not forget about the activites in support of RMT... botting, rare mob/drop monopolization, over-running of hunting areas, flooding of markets and on and on... Those are all prohibited in the ToS and accounts are banned for those activities as well. So when you buy money, you're contributing to those activities as well. But hey.. you haven't been banned yet, so that must make it okay, right?
So, because you and other lazy types feel it's beneath you to play the same game by the same rules everyone else is, everyone else has to suffer. I'm sure that makes you feel very distinguished. I mean that you can buy money instead of playing the game and acquiring it like everyone else... Wow... I stand in awe of you. Really, I do.
In truth... I'm not naive enough to think I or anyone else would get through to your type... You're too delusional and wrapped up in your own self-serving rhetoric to be reached... But these threads, and the mountains of utter ignorant crap just never fail to amaze me.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Sooo... because you haven't been caught yet... that makes it okay? Some sound logic there.
Beyond that... just more of the same rationalization and rhetoric I've seen time and again by your type. You frame it a bit more intelligently than others.. but it's the same crap that's been regurgitated over and over.
You don't have to buy money to get through these games. You aren't entitled to circumvent the rules everyone else is held to, because you think your personal circumstances make you special or something - if you do, then I'd suggest getting over yourself. I know that Square, at least, is beginning to go after those who buy money as well... so whether other companies are or not remains to be seen.
RMT does absolutely, unquestionably affect the in-game economies. I have seen this happen first hand, both before and after, and it is 100% indisputable fact. Bringing a bunch of ill-gotten money into the game brings down the value of the in-game currency, and causes prices to go up, making items extremely difficult to get for legitimate players who actually *play* the game as intended. And let's not forget about the activites in support of RMT... botting, rare mob/drop monopolization, over-running of hunting areas, flooding of markets and on and on... Those are all prohibited in the ToS and accounts are banned for those activities as well. So when you buy money, you're contributing to those activities as well. But hey.. you haven't been banned yet, so that must make it okay, right?
So, because you and other lazy types feel it's beneath you to play the same game by the same rules everyone else is, everyone else has to suffer. I'm sure that makes you feel very distinguished. I mean that you can buy money instead of playing the game and acquiring it like everyone else... Wow... I stand in awe of you. Really, I do.
In truth... I'm not naive enough to think I or anyone else would get through to your type... You're too delusional and wrapped up in your own self-serving rhetoric to be reached... But these threads, and the mountains of utter ignorant crap just never fail to amaze me.
Bad rules are meant to be broken. Anti-RMT people aren't much different from the people who thought prohibition would make people stop drinking alcohol. It still happened, and making it illegal created a huge black market that ended in nothing but violence and vice a lot worse then people drinking. There is a direct relationship between monotonous time sinks and gold farming. Just as prohibition created a demand for alcohol time sinks create demand for power leveling and gold farming. Chinese farmers are the new mob, and all the high and mighty rhetoric isn't getting rid of them. Either you can try to address the cause (bad gameplay) or you can try to attack the symptoms you described. But no amount of treatment will get rid of it if you don't attack the cause.
It took about a decade for people to give up on the utopian idea of prohibition. I wonder how long the RMT people can scream and have no real effect before trying to think for themselves. If you really want to get gold farming out of the game, try getting rid of the reasons why people are always looking for shortcuts. And instead of lauding every half assed dev ban announcement, how bout asking why they are willing to take millions in sub money from farmers without doing any permanent fix.
I have to say some interesting points, but that doens't make what they do right. And that whole can of bologna about RMT not being bad for game economies is retarded. And I can give you proof to back it up. Simply put in the past ffxi had a major RMT bot problem. The prices on AH were extremely high and it was hard for people not in a guild to even afford stuff. Recently they have been doing massive bannings of proven RMT and changes to certian rares that were camped alot by RMT. And the AH has never been better. Prices have dropped, items get sold more often, people stop buying gold and the server is just a bit better. Heck... even the thiefs knife which used to be like 20 mil is down to 100k or less.
In any case the article had a few good points, but it was making comprimises instead of stating the true fact that RMT are bad for games.
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Comments
I totally agree with you! Item-centric game design is just one of the many problems with mmorpg models compared to the traditions they are descended from - be it pnp or literature/movies!
Kudos to Dan for bringing up the fact that in many cases its the MMOG devs themselves who create situations where buying gold becomes an awfully big temptation. Here's a good example -I just joined some friends in moving to a WOW PVP server, and am amazed at how unbalanced low-level PVP has become thanks to twinks. For those who don't play WOW, Blizzard allows high level players to buy powerful enchants costing dozens or hundreds of gold. With these completely lopsided boosts twinks can pretty much one shot kill my "average" newbie character. The battle grounds and even world PVP is dominated by twinks, so it looks like I'm going to be the severe underdog until I get a character to high level and personally farm enough gold to "start over" with a new properly equipped lowbie twink of my own.
Or I could simply go out and buy a few hundred gold for less than $50 - which if you look at as purely a rational market decision is far, far cheaper than spending hundreds of hours to get to 70 and then more hours spent grinding. I'm not going to actually buy gold, but then again I blame WOW's devs for creating a situation where brand new players to the game or returning players are severely handicapped out of the gate. Players should only have access to level-appropriate weapons and gear - that's gameplay balancing 101. If you're going to give veteran players a huge advantage by allowing them to buy level 60ish enchants for their level 19 rogue, don't be surprised when other players start turning to gold farmers to have a chance at even competing on a PVP server.
And don't get me started about the top-heaviness of the WOW economy, how money is still pretty hard to earn through drops and questiny until you hit Outland, where the game suddenly becomes "Who Wants to be a Millionaire."
Truth be told, only two things keep me from buying gold, and neither of them have to do with a sense of "keeping the playing field level" since Blizzard has gone out of their way to make sure their game is no longer balanced even at level 20. The first thing is my personal integrity and the second thing is the constant bombardment of "buy our gold at lowest price" messages that gold farmers spam across general and trade channels. They've even use the "looking for group" function so that when you think you've just joined a group to do an instance suddenly you're stuck in party chat with a gold farmer rep. I hate telemarketers in real life and I'm sure as hell not going to buy from them when they're pestering me in-game.
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I don't think City of Heroes and City of Villians have farmers. Farmers impact everyone not just the people who use them. MMORPGs are about what you have accomplished in the game and not what you've made in real life.
I am not for or against them, however keep the coin in the WEST. Any population which allows it's self to be lead by a bunch of muppets deserves all it gets. Bring out the Water cannons and panzerfausts i say. The more coin which goes into that country will flow straight into the top brasses pockets and not the people who really need it so what's the point of allowing it to filter there at all. Like many of hard earnt coin it will just get spent on tanks.
Bandit
Asbo
Yeah, I don't like them either and their spam in game causes lots of lag and is disruptive to game play. If I wanted to see or hear someone selling something I'd watch TV.
I hate these articles, the purpose of which is to make this cheating crap seem like a debateable issue. Because of course if it is debateable then it's just a choice. And if it's just a choice, then cheaters should be free to go right on cheating. And mmorpg.com can go right on taking money from the gold sellers. Yeah, we see through this guys. But go right on with your monthly rationalizations. Maybe some 12 year old too inept to play a game himself will believe you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think a pvp/rvr system more like the upcoming WAR is better. In that game, you can kill anyone on the opposing side and loot them, but the dead player loses self respect (important in my opinion) not his gear. That way people kep coming back and don't go offline in a huff or have to go grind somewhere to get more gear... and they can wear their best stuff to look pretty even as corpses -- very important
The way to make botters and selling gold obsolete is simple: play WAR or other games that are not gear-centric and stop chasing epic gear. As long as there is uber BOE stuff that gives an advantage over other players in a game, there will be people willing to pay real money to get it.
why are using WAR that game is not out thus you must make assumptions how it will go.
EVE has FFA PVP and the audience is not small I am not sure what you are driving at. Lineage also enjoys huge pops.
The main advantage of FFA PVP is that it allows PVPers a method to get good gear without grinding PVE for it. Next, it enforces risk versus reward. It is not some fake PVP where I cannot make an impact in a long term war. FFA PVP with Looting allows us to fight real wars and make a -real- impact in a war. When I loot my victim, I am setting them back thus making a big win for my guild.
Also, Looting + Item Decay makes items more expendable. Why would you pay a lot of cash for an uber geared toon in a game whereas you can be robbed blind the minute you logon? You wont
Risk Vs reward is self regulating system. Nooblets will lose all they own if they dont know how to play. So if you dont deserve your gear, you will lose it fast when there is no safe zones to farm
There might be other solutions but I always like to point out self regulating systems help curb that. However, the farmers are the loudest, most vocal out of everyone when they get killed and looted and the developers always seem to go out of their way to protect them
I dont see how wAR can be so dependant on player skill anyway when everything you do is dependant on stats and dice rolls.
Supply and demand. What is wrong with that? China and other exploited countries have been taking advantage of the american dollar for years! What should be any different about this?
[edit] nvm read post below
I totally agree with you! Item-centric game design is just one of the many problems with mmorpg models compared to the traditions they are descended from - be it pnp or literature/movies!
Ah this is a great post much better then my points. I'd like this very much to go back to the old ways. I pulled ouyt my old PnP rules book the other day have yet to see heavy itemization in it
The terms and conditions of most mmorpg state that farming to sell IP for profit is not acceptable. There are many reasons for this as this thread illustrates.
If we adopted your theory without constraints we may as well say it is ok to kidnap Eastern European women and sell them as sex slaves on the (black) market as prostitutes for wealthy Western Europe. The pimps have a demand so IT IS ok to supply!
My experience with RMT stems mainly from my first MMO experience, Final Fantasy XI:
1. RMT monopolizing resources for gaining income (24 hours a day, possibly via bot programs that create an unfair advantage).
2. Inflating the price of said resources pn the Auction House since they are monopolizing their production, i.e. Elm Logs necessary for creating shihei (a very important reagent).
This is just one example of many where RMT had played a role in disrupting the economy of FFXI. I made very good money farming Elm in Ghelshba Outpost, then a gaggle of RMT step in and team the entire area for months, 24hrs a day. Then I make some decent money farming Wind Crystals in Tahrongi Canyon, then another gaggle of RMT step in and do the exact same thing. What results is a very frustrating experience. Players on a "normal" schedule who may attempt the above steps may have a similar impact on the game economy, but to a lesser extent as they would be less likely to be farming the same area 24 hrs a day/7 days a week, and certainly not for real life cash but rather their own virtual gain.
My counter argument to this, however, is that the fact that RMT can disrupt the game economy in FFXI so much is a game design flaw. Looking back, FFXI's economic system is a bit utopian as it didn't take into consideration the possibilities of the above referenced actions. Many things could have been done from a developer's advantage point in offering other means to obtain these resources as accessibly, or limiting the amount of gains allowed over time. Instead, they have spent most of their energy policing RMT groups, and at a time very late in the game's lifespan.
Ultimately, I would like to play an MMORPG that is more economically balanced, allowing everyone the same opportunity to advance financially in-game without the intercedence of RMT, cash shops, or other means of using real life money to advance in the game (legitimate or otherwise). These aren't single console games with cheat codes or secret passwords, it's an MMO whose success is fueled by community. I want to be rewarded for my skill, and respected for the time I have invested in a game. Being outdone by those with deeper pockets is insulting and antithisent to the spirit of gaming imho.
I think what most people that say Gold farming and RMT are not a problem miss one huge issue.
While some or maybe even many of the Gold farmers are just farming using normal ingame methods another large part of them are not so benign. They will do what ever it takes to get the gold to sell including among other things macros, game hacks and hacking accounts. And these are things that will cause real problems for normal players.
In a way it can be seen a bit like the real life drug market. While the drugs themselves doesn't have to be dangerous they will because of their addictiveness force their users to go further and further to acquire them, which in the end starts to include stuff like stealing and murdering.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I have no problem ith RMT in a game where it's part of the design, I simply won't play it but I don't have any problems with others playing it. For a game where RMT isn't part of the design it's simply cheating, again I have no problem with cheating in a single player game but I do have a problem with cheating and cheaters in multi player games. If I play chess with someone and that person suddenly has all his pawns replaced by queens it's no longer a game I enjoy, if I play poker and someone in that hand suddenly gets to pick 5 cards of his choice from the deck it's no longer fun... Why am I supposed to just accept it when people cheat in an MMO?
Ok ... look ...
First of all, I'm not a RMT supporter ... it isn't that I *can't* spend the real life money to buy in-game currency, it is simply that (like many others here) I just won't ...
That having been said however ... a post above complains about having their farm grounds taken over by those presumed to be participants in the RMT ... is it not every bit as possible that the person/persons saw for themselves the marketability of said items at auction and is just another out-of-work gamer (thus with lots of time on their hands) choosing to maximize their profit by following market trends (or perhaps that gamer's character since in FFXI the seller's name appears on the sale log at auction) ... several times back when I played that particular game (especially during a stretch where I was out of work myself) I had folks accuse me of being a gil farmer simply because I played a lot, didn't talk much, and was camping high-value NM drops to sell to save up to buy myself a few high-ticket items ... when in reality I was simply using my free time to play a lot, wasn't often in a talkative mood, and was very single-minded towards achieving my goals ...
It seems that the assumption is that anyone who just happens to figure out what you do to make money and displaces you (shall I quote the principles behind survival of the fittest ?) is that they are automatically a member of the RMT community ... I'm not saying some, or even perhaps most, aren't ... but it isn't automatically all - no matter how convenient that would be to ease the feelings of inadequacy you have over being cut out ...
Another argument thrown about is that it is "against the ToS" ... so is harassment in many games, and the act of repeatedly killing another player simply because you *think* they might be an RMTer falls into this catagory ... sadly, you may well see a ban for doing so before the RMT player does for selling currency because it is easier to prove ...
Finally, we have the notion that currency buying creates inflation and thus makes it impossible for new players ... bull puckey ... I'll once again use an example from my days in FFXI (which someone said was one of the worst affected) ... yes, the auction value of one item may have doubled or tripled, especially at certain times of the year (Xmas in particular) ... however, it's relational value always seemed to remain unchanged ... that is to say, on the server I was on the price of one particular item may have dramatically increased ... but say that said item was roughly worth as much as, for example, the selling price of two Astral Rings and an Emperor Hairpin ... this was true at it's lower price and the same was true at the inflated price ... I found several relational equivalencies at various level ranges and guess what ... they also remained unchanged, and a couple them were interlocked (one item in more than one relational model) ... this blows that theory out of the water, at least in this particular game on that particular server ...
It may sound from these statements that I support the RMT ... but I don't. If asked in a poll by the game company whether I want it or not in their game environment, I will say no. And that's about as far as I'll go. I used to take a more active stance against the RMT myself, but have long since mellowed out. Risk and reward ... those paying for the services of the RMT are taking a risk for that reward ... many game makers will ban accounts that can be definitively linked to the RMT, whether that be buying OR selling ... however, even in games that do not expressly forbid it, I personally do not choose to participate ... that's MY choice, and I am not about to impose my decisions or moralities upon others no matter how great the temptation is to do so ... that's on them, and perhaps the game manufacturers themselves
But back to the topic at hand ...
Several analogies have been thrown out for discussion here ... the dry cleaner one, the darts one, and many others ... let me add one more to the list ... Yea, I know ... this analogy is no less flawed than any of the others. However if taken more in spirit than in the literal text, I think it illustratres things quite nicely.
Jim, Bob and Dave all play the same game.
Before their parents allow them to play said game, their lawns must be mowed. (Similar in a FFXI sense to the farming of non-experience mobs that must take place to have the money to afford the items necessary to join a group to fight experience-yeilding ones - and this is common to many games I've played). All three have the same size yard. All three also have the same eight hours of time left over after sleep, school, and family commitments are taken into account.
Jim's father is frugal and still has a walk-behind mower. As a result it takes Jim four hours to mow his yard, leaving the poor guy only 4 hours to game. (Let's equate this to the gamer who works but does not choose to buy online currency.)
Bob's dad went out and bought a riding mower, and subsequently Bob can mow his yard in only an hour. With 7 hours of his 8 remaining, he has nearly twice the time to spend in the game as Jim does, and thus will advance much more swiftly. (This is the out-of-work gamer with all kinds of free time on his hands.)
Dave is stuck in the same boat as Jim (with a walk-behind mower), but has a way to make enough money in a single hour to pay the neighbor kid to mow his yard for him. The lawn takes the same four hours to mow as Jim's does, but this puts him on equal footing with Bob since he has effectively 'bought back' three of them and thus can partake of the same level of enjoyment as Bob. (Here we have the currency buyer, with the neighbor boy playing the role of the RMT.)
Now ... let's for a moment presume there to be three alternate realities where there exist a Jim, a Jimmy, and a James ... all three wish they had the same seven hours to play as their friends do, but the difference is in how they let that desire affect them ...
Jim thinks that what Bob does is okay, but is infuriated by Dave's methods ... in his opinion, Dave cheats because he doesn't mow the yard himself and Bob shares his opinion ... neither is very shy about letting everyone know their feelings on the matter ... Dave's parents vocally sympathize with the two boys, and tell Dave he can't pay the kid next door to do it anymore - but since the yard is getting mowed do nothing about it when he continues to do so (Dave's parents are much like game companies in this respect - they may posture a bit, but the RMT are also paying subscribers so in the end nothing is done) ...
Jimmy is pretty sour about the methods of both ... he tosses rocks into Bob's yard hoping to foul up the riding mower so it will break so that he will have to use the push mower that his dad kept around for just that occasion (i.e. get a job and therefore not have as much free time anymore) ... and he regularly beats up the younger neighbor boy that Dave pays hoping this physical abuse will drive him away (which much like the RMTer it doesn't, since he actually needs the money)
But James is a little more mature about it ... sure, he may not like being at a disadvantage compared to his two friends ... but he realizes that everyone involved does what they feel they have to do, and doesn't let the actions of others detract from his personal enjoyment of the game when he finally has the time to play it ...
Why can't we all be a little more like James ....
Some people find the grind to make money distasteful ... personally, I enjoy it sometimes but at other times wish it didn't exist ... but my answer is to 'do without' rather than pay for it ... that's just me though ... if there's an item I want badly enough, I'll camp it or farm for the money to buy it - if I don't, then apparently I can do without it ...
I don't understand the paying to be powerleveled part either ... to me it's like buying an account, and is also something that I'd never do ... then again though, there are likely those that don't enjoy the long grind and would prefer to just begin at endgame to reap the rewards and fun of a high level without actually having to work to get there ... even if it means they didn't learn to really play their character properly ... perhaps for them, that is the 'entertainment' you speak of ...
Not to mention there will always be those for which the strive for #1 is their sole motivation ... while I may feel sorry for them, it is not within my rights to criticize them if that's how they see 'fun' ...
The long and short of it all however is entertainment value, as you say, and people find their bliss in different ways ...thankfully, you used the phrases "to me" and "at least not for me" in the appropriate places, because I'd hate to think you were trying to define 'entertainment' or 'fun' for anyone other than yourself ...
People need something to complain about. So they complain about gold farmers.
I could care less what other people do. If the devs were so against it they could design a game where it is exceedingly frustrating for gold farmers to exist. It isn't that hard to snuff it out if they really wanted to.
I really think it is just a matter of people needing to constantly complain for no apparent reason.
No, it's not. Are you honestly that stupid?
Seriously though, what's with all the animosity against those who decide to buy or sell gold? Seriously? Is it jealousy? What of people who sell their accounts? Are they evil too because they want to make something of their time and dedication? Honestly, I dont understand the _why_.
time = money
Some people have the time to grind endlessly to get all the uber gear possible... some people dont. Those that dont sometimes use this little equation, and convert their money into time. Why is that bad? Can someone answer honestly?
Actually... It *is* against the rules of most MMOs out there - something called a EULA or a ToS, etc. etc. They verbally prohibit RMT. And these companies suspend and/or ban accounts for the activity. So, while it's not "against the law", it is definitely against the rules.
Another problem are the tactics used by the gold farmers to obtain their money in many cases - they use 3rd-party "bots" - also prohibited in the EULA/ToS - to monopolize rare mobs that drop highly sought drops, among other tactics.
The illogic in the whole pro-RMT case is just ridiculous. These games are set up with a standard set of rules and challenges that apply equally to everyone - whether you have 2 hours a day or 12, you will face the same challenges in progressing as everyone else. That you don't have as much time as someone else is not "unfair", it does not make you somehow "special", nor does it entitle you to a free-pass around what the people who've put more time into the game than you (that's plain common sense) have to do, and - despite your strongest or most powerful (to you) arguments - it is still against the ToS and is a bannable offense. You can disagree with it all you want... you will still be banned if you're caught doing it. So hey... argue, debate, justify and whine about "limited time" all you want... you're still wrong.
Blaming the devs for a "flawed" game system? Again... completely ridiculous argument. If you disagree with the way the game is setup and you can't accept it as it's setup - here's a strong dose of common sense - Don't Play. No one's forcing you to keep paying the subscription or keep playing. Cancel your sub, then you're not spending anything - on the game, or on buying your money.
Claiming it don't affect the economy? Ask people in FFXI since SE has seriously and consistently cracked down on it in that game what they think. I'd say an emperor hairpin that could go for 20 million gil when RMT was at its worst coming down to 500-600 thousand gil since since they've started fighting it is proof positive that RMT can and *does* affect in-game economies. I would say that a Jujitsu Gi,which I bought at 450k pre-RMT, that went up to around 10 million when RMT was at its worst and is now down to 150k since they've been addressing the RMT and related problems is proof that it affects in-game economies. I can go on and on and on with examples. So, please... put that theory to rest. It's wrong.
So... to the pro RMT folks... Let's review:
1. Your lack of free time does not make it "ok".
2. Your desire to "keep up with your friends" doesn't make it "ok"
3. Your disagreement with how the devs designed the game does not make it "ok".
4. Your disagreement with the ToS does not make it "ok".
Despite any hair-brained arguments in favor of it, RMT is against the ToS/EULA, MMO companies can and do regularly ban accounts for it... That, by itself, should be proof enough for anyone with a lick of common sense that RMT is not "okay", except in games that, by design, support it.
But by all means, keep arguing it... keep buying it. When your account has been banned for it, good luck arguing your points in support for it and let's see how far that gets you.
The intellectual dishonesty and utter ignorance on display in threads like this is staggering.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Another problem are the tactics used by the gold farmers to obtain their money in many cases - they use 3rd-party "bots" - also prohibited in the EULA/ToS - to monopolize rare mobs that drop highly sought drops, among other tactics.
The illogic in the whole pro-RMT case is just ridiculous. These games are set up with a standard set of rules and challenges that apply equally to everyone - whether you have 2 hours a day or 12, you will face the same challenges in progressing as everyone else. That you don't have as much time as someone else is not "unfair", it does not make you somehow "special", nor does it entitle you to a free-pass around what the people who've put more time into the game than you (that's plain common sense) have to do, and - despite your strongest or most powerful (to you) arguments - it is still against the ToS and is a bannable offense. You can disagree with it all you want... you will still be banned if you're caught doing it. So hey... argue, debate, justify and whine about "limited time" all you want... you're still wrong.
Blaming the devs for a "flawed" game system? Again... completely ridiculous argument. If you disagree with the way the game is setup and you can't accept it as it's setup - here's a strong dose of common sense - Don't Play. No one's forcing you to keep paying the subscription or keep playing. Cancel your sub, then you're not spending anything - on the game, or on buying your money.
No, I'll play the game if I want. Deal with it. I'll buy money if I want, deal with it. Going to a concert is much more expensive then buying a CD, but sometimes I pay for the concert cause it is better. Playing an MMO and paying someone to do the grind so you can enjoy the good parts is more expensive then playing it straight, but sometimes it is worth the money.
Claiming it don't affect the economy? Ask people in FFXI since SE has seriously and consistently cracked down on it in that game what they think. I'd say an emperor hairpin that could go for 20 million gil when RMT was at its worst coming down to 500-600 thousand gil since since they've started fighting it is proof positive that RMT can and *does* affect in-game economies. I would say that a Jujitsu Gi,which I bought at 450k pre-RMT, that went up to around 10 million when RMT was at its worst and is now down to 150k since they've been addressing the RMT and related problems is proof that it affects in-game economies. I can go on and on and on with examples. So, please... put that theory to rest. It's wrong.
So... to the pro RMT folks... Let's review:
1. Your lack of free time does not make it "ok".
Yes, it does. I already pay for landscapers so I don't have to mow my lawn because I work a lot. Some of us have careers, we aren't sitting in our mom's basement or failing out of school or working some shit job for shit money.
2. Your desire to "keep up with your friends" doesn't make it "ok"
Yes, it does. Games shouldn't require constant 40+ hour a week grind sessions to keep up. If I enjoy PvP, and it costs me a little money, then that's what I'll do.
3. Your disagreement with how the devs designed the game does not make it "ok".
Yes, I'm the customer. They need to make a better product. As new MMO developers design games that don't include grind they will get more and more customers. And they'll find there is a lot less RMT when people don't want to avoid playing their game.
4. Your disagreement with the ToS does not make it "ok".
The TOS/EULA won't hold up in court. That is why no game company has ever brought it too court.
Despite any hair-brained arguments in favor of it, RMT is against the ToS/EULA, MMO companies can and do regularly ban accounts for it... That, by itself, should be proof enough for anyone with a lick of common sense that RMT is not "okay", except in games that, by design, support it.
But by all means, keep arguing it... keep buying it. When your account has been banned for it, good luck arguing your points in support for it and let's see how far that gets you.
The intellectual dishonesty and utter ignorance on display in threads like this is staggering.
/cheer
I have never had the uber armor or weapons in any mmorpg I've played but I still have fun!
For me it's not about having the best there is, I don't need it to have a good time. I do however like my games commercial free. lol
As I said before, I know where to go if I want to buy something. I would never pay real money for a game item or to have someone level up my character. Leveling is part of the fun and so is finding other ways to survive without the best armor or weapons.
Actually... It *is* against the rules of most MMOs out there - something called a EULA or a ToS, etc. etc. They verbally prohibit RMT. And these companies suspend and/or ban accounts for the activity. So, while it's not "against the law", it is definitely against the rules.Another problem are the tactics used by the gold farmers to obtain their money in many cases - they use 3rd-party "bots" - also prohibited in the EULA/ToS - to monopolize rare mobs that drop highly sought drops, among other tactics.
The illogic in the whole pro-RMT case is just ridiculous. These games are set up with a standard set of rules and challenges that apply equally to everyone - whether you have 2 hours a day or 12, you will face the same challenges in progressing as everyone else. That you don't have as much time as someone else is not "unfair", it does not make you somehow "special", nor does it entitle you to a free-pass around what the people who've put more time into the game than you (that's plain common sense) have to do, and - despite your strongest or most powerful (to you) arguments - it is still against the ToS and is a bannable offense. You can disagree with it all you want... you will still be banned if you're caught doing it. So hey... argue, debate, justify and whine about "limited time" all you want... you're still wrong.
Blaming the devs for a "flawed" game system? Again... completely ridiculous argument. If you disagree with the way the game is setup and you can't accept it as it's setup - here's a strong dose of common sense - Don't Play. No one's forcing you to keep paying the subscription or keep playing. Cancel your sub, then you're not spending anything - on the game, or on buying your money.
No, I'll play the game if I want. Deal with it. I'll buy money if I want, deal with it. Going to a concert is much more expensive then buying a CD, but sometimes I pay for the concert cause it is better. Playing an MMO and paying someone to do the grind so you can enjoy the good parts is more expensive then playing it straight, but sometimes it is worth the money.
Claiming it don't affect the economy? Ask people in FFXI since SE has seriously and consistently cracked down on it in that game what they think. I'd say an emperor hairpin that could go for 20 million gil when RMT was at its worst coming down to 500-600 thousand gil since since they've started fighting it is proof positive that RMT can and *does* affect in-game economies. I would say that a Jujitsu Gi,which I bought at 450k pre-RMT, that went up to around 10 million when RMT was at its worst and is now down to 150k since they've been addressing the RMT and related problems is proof that it affects in-game economies. I can go on and on and on with examples. So, please... put that theory to rest. It's wrong.
So... to the pro RMT folks... Let's review:
1. Your lack of free time does not make it "ok".
Yes, it does. I already pay for landscapers so I don't have to mow my lawn because I work a lot. Some of us have careers, we aren't sitting in our mom's basement or failing out of school or working some shit job for shit money.
2. Your desire to "keep up with your friends" doesn't make it "ok"
Yes, it does. Games shouldn't require constant 40+ hour a week grind sessions to keep up. If I enjoy PvP, and it costs me a little money, then that's what I'll do.
3. Your disagreement with how the devs designed the game does not make it "ok".
Yes, I'm the customer. They need to make a better product. As new MMO developers design games that don't include grind they will get more and more customers. And they'll find there is a lot less RMT when people don't want to avoid playing their game.
4. Your disagreement with the ToS does not make it "ok".
The TOS/EULA won't hold up in court. That is why no game company has ever brought it too court.
Despite any hair-brained arguments in favor of it, RMT is against the ToS/EULA, MMO companies can and do regularly ban accounts for it... That, by itself, should be proof enough for anyone with a lick of common sense that RMT is not "okay", except in games that, by design, support it.
But by all means, keep arguing it... keep buying it. When your account has been banned for it, good luck arguing your points in support for it and let's see how far that gets you.
The intellectual dishonesty and utter ignorance on display in threads like this is staggering.
lol... Whatever, man. Do what you want. It's your time and money you're putting at risk because you can't play by the rules of the game. I hope you realize that the reality of the situation - as many as10s of thousands of banned accounts per month in FFXI alone - agrees with my point-of-view, and not yours. I hope you're not too delusional to at least acknowledge that.
And, the "it won't hold up in court" argument is so ridiculous I can't believe people even bring it up. You are agreeing to their ToS when you play the game... A court order isn't necessary for them to close down your account for violating it. That 10s of thousands of accounts are banned for those very reasons all the time is proof enough of this. You want to be an idiot and play Russian-Roullette with the time and money you've spent.. go right ahead. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I actually find it incredibly poetic and quite funny that people who, like yourself, feel that they're somehow exempt from the rules everyone is held to are proven wrong all the time by being banned. So... preach on, brother. Keep deluding yourself. In the end.. your account will be banned. Not mine.
I have a full-time job and I only have limited time to play as well. I don't believe that exempts me from playing by the rules. I certainly don't feel that gives me the "right" to buy my way through the game. If my time becomes prohibitive to my being able to progress at the rate I'd like.. I'll take it as a hint that maybe it's not the game for me. I'm not going to blame the devs. I'm certainly not going to concoct some absurd theory on how the rules somehow don't apply to me. I just can't be that ignorant. But I realize that might be too much common-sense for you to comprehend.. so no hard feelings if you don't.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
lol... Whatever, man. Do what you want. It's your time and money you're putting at risk because you can't play by the rules of the game. I hope you realize that the reality of the situation - as many as10s of thousands of banned accounts per month in FFXI alone - agrees with my point-of-view, and not yours. I hope you're not too delusional to at least acknowledge that.
And, the "it won't hold up in court" argument is so ridiculous I can't believe people even bring it up. You are agreeing to their ToS when you play the game... A court order isn't necessary for them to close down your account for violating it. That 10s of thousands of accounts are banned for those very reasons all the time is proof enough of this. You want to be an idiot and play Russian-Roullette with the time and money you've spent.. go right ahead. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I actually find it incredibly poetic and quite funny that people who, like yourself, feel that they're somehow exempt from the rules everyone is held to are proven wrong all the time by being banned. So... preach on, brother. Keep deluding yourself. In the end.. your account will be banned. Not mine.
I have a full-time job and I only have limited time to play as well. I don't believe that exempts me from playing by the rules. I certainly don't feel that gives me the "right" to buy my way through the game. If my time becomes prohibitive to my being able to progress at the rate I'd like.. I'll take it as a hint that maybe it's not the game for me. I'm not going to blame the devs. I'm certainly not going to concoct some absurd theory on how the rules somehow don't apply to me. I just can't be that ignorant. But I realize that might be too much common-sense for you to comprehend.. so no hard feelings if you don't.
I've done a little gold buying, and a lot of account trading. I haven't gotten banned once. For all the bluster games companies put out, they almost never ever ban the Western gold buyer. That would mean losing subs, lots of them, and costing them money. When you hear about a bunch of accounts getting banned they are all farmer accounts. Guess what, the day after they get banned they are up and running again on a new account. The game companies love this. They get lots of new sales, and lots of subscription money while they person re-levels and re-farms. Sure, they throw a few bones out there to seem on the up and up, but at the end of the day RMT is still there.
Game companies have the resources to shut down RMT. They can track every transaction in-game. If they really desired to they would shut it down. How do you think Blizzard gets its 8 mil sub number. I'll tell you, gold farmers. Over half the subs are from China. They throw out a few things to pay lip service to the RMT hater, but that's it. No real action.
As for legality, game companies have purposely stayed out of court. They are scared to death a court might rule that virtual property is real property. Any lawsuits you see are related to spamming. And gold farmers aren't afraid. Remember the touted lawsuit against peons4hire. Go to their website right now. They are still doing business.
lol... Whatever, man. Do what you want. It's your time and money you're putting at risk because you can't play by the rules of the game. I hope you realize that the reality of the situation - as many as10s of thousands of banned accounts per month in FFXI alone - agrees with my point-of-view, and not yours. I hope you're not too delusional to at least acknowledge that.
And, the "it won't hold up in court" argument is so ridiculous I can't believe people even bring it up. You are agreeing to their ToS when you play the game... A court order isn't necessary for them to close down your account for violating it. That 10s of thousands of accounts are banned for those very reasons all the time is proof enough of this. You want to be an idiot and play Russian-Roullette with the time and money you've spent.. go right ahead. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I actually find it incredibly poetic and quite funny that people who, like yourself, feel that they're somehow exempt from the rules everyone is held to are proven wrong all the time by being banned. So... preach on, brother. Keep deluding yourself. In the end.. your account will be banned. Not mine.
I have a full-time job and I only have limited time to play as well. I don't believe that exempts me from playing by the rules. I certainly don't feel that gives me the "right" to buy my way through the game. If my time becomes prohibitive to my being able to progress at the rate I'd like.. I'll take it as a hint that maybe it's not the game for me. I'm not going to blame the devs. I'm certainly not going to concoct some absurd theory on how the rules somehow don't apply to me. I just can't be that ignorant. But I realize that might be too much common-sense for you to comprehend.. so no hard feelings if you don't.
I've done a little gold buying, and a lot of account trading. I haven't gotten banned once. For all the bluster games companies put out, they almost never ever ban the Western gold buyer. That would mean losing subs, lots of them, and costing them money. When you hear about a bunch of accounts getting banned they are all farmer accounts. Guess what, the day after they get banned they are up and running again on a new account. The game companies love this. They get lots of new sales, and lots of subscription money while they person re-levels and re-farms. Sure, they throw a few bones out there to seem on the up and up, but at the end of the day RMT is still there.
Game companies have the resources to shut down RMT. They can track every transaction in-game. If they really desired to they would shut it down. How do you think Blizzard gets its 8 mil sub number. I'll tell you, gold farmers. Over half the subs are from China. They throw out a few things to pay lip service to the RMT hater, but that's it. No real action.
As for legality, game companies have purposely stayed out of court. They are scared to death a court might rule that virtual property is real property. Any lawsuits you see are related to spamming. And gold farmers aren't afraid. Remember the touted lawsuit against peons4hire. Go to their website right now. They are still doing business.
Sooo... because you haven't been caught yet... that makes it okay? Some sound logic there.
Beyond that... just more of the same rationalization and rhetoric I've seen time and again by your type. You frame it a bit more intelligently than others.. but it's the same crap that's been regurgitated over and over.
You don't have to buy money to get through these games. You aren't entitled to circumvent the rules everyone else is held to, because you think your personal circumstances make you special or something - if you do, then I'd suggest getting over yourself. I know that Square, at least, is beginning to go after those who buy money as well... so whether other companies are or not remains to be seen.
RMT does absolutely, unquestionably affect the in-game economies. I have seen this happen first hand, both before and after, and it is 100% indisputable fact. Bringing a bunch of ill-gotten money into the game brings down the value of the in-game currency, and causes prices to go up, making items extremely difficult to get for legitimate players who actually *play* the game as intended. And let's not forget about the activites in support of RMT... botting, rare mob/drop monopolization, over-running of hunting areas, flooding of markets and on and on... Those are all prohibited in the ToS and accounts are banned for those activities as well. So when you buy money, you're contributing to those activities as well. But hey.. you haven't been banned yet, so that must make it okay, right?
So, because you and other lazy types feel it's beneath you to play the same game by the same rules everyone else is, everyone else has to suffer. I'm sure that makes you feel very distinguished. I mean that you can buy money instead of playing the game and acquiring it like everyone else... Wow... I stand in awe of you. Really, I do.
In truth... I'm not naive enough to think I or anyone else would get through to your type... You're too delusional and wrapped up in your own self-serving rhetoric to be reached... But these threads, and the mountains of utter ignorant crap just never fail to amaze me.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Sooo... because you haven't been caught yet... that makes it okay? Some sound logic there.
Beyond that... just more of the same rationalization and rhetoric I've seen time and again by your type. You frame it a bit more intelligently than others.. but it's the same crap that's been regurgitated over and over.
You don't have to buy money to get through these games. You aren't entitled to circumvent the rules everyone else is held to, because you think your personal circumstances make you special or something - if you do, then I'd suggest getting over yourself. I know that Square, at least, is beginning to go after those who buy money as well... so whether other companies are or not remains to be seen.
RMT does absolutely, unquestionably affect the in-game economies. I have seen this happen first hand, both before and after, and it is 100% indisputable fact. Bringing a bunch of ill-gotten money into the game brings down the value of the in-game currency, and causes prices to go up, making items extremely difficult to get for legitimate players who actually *play* the game as intended. And let's not forget about the activites in support of RMT... botting, rare mob/drop monopolization, over-running of hunting areas, flooding of markets and on and on... Those are all prohibited in the ToS and accounts are banned for those activities as well. So when you buy money, you're contributing to those activities as well. But hey.. you haven't been banned yet, so that must make it okay, right?
So, because you and other lazy types feel it's beneath you to play the same game by the same rules everyone else is, everyone else has to suffer. I'm sure that makes you feel very distinguished. I mean that you can buy money instead of playing the game and acquiring it like everyone else... Wow... I stand in awe of you. Really, I do.
In truth... I'm not naive enough to think I or anyone else would get through to your type... You're too delusional and wrapped up in your own self-serving rhetoric to be reached... But these threads, and the mountains of utter ignorant crap just never fail to amaze me.
Bad rules are meant to be broken. Anti-RMT people aren't much different from the people who thought prohibition would make people stop drinking alcohol. It still happened, and making it illegal created a huge black market that ended in nothing but violence and vice a lot worse then people drinking. There is a direct relationship between monotonous time sinks and gold farming. Just as prohibition created a demand for alcohol time sinks create demand for power leveling and gold farming. Chinese farmers are the new mob, and all the high and mighty rhetoric isn't getting rid of them. Either you can try to address the cause (bad gameplay) or you can try to attack the symptoms you described. But no amount of treatment will get rid of it if you don't attack the cause.
It took about a decade for people to give up on the utopian idea of prohibition. I wonder how long the RMT people can scream and have no real effect before trying to think for themselves. If you really want to get gold farming out of the game, try getting rid of the reasons why people are always looking for shortcuts. And instead of lauding every half assed dev ban announcement, how bout asking why they are willing to take millions in sub money from farmers without doing any permanent fix.
I have to say some interesting points, but that doens't make what they do right. And that whole can of bologna about RMT not being bad for game economies is retarded. And I can give you proof to back it up. Simply put in the past ffxi had a major RMT bot problem. The prices on AH were extremely high and it was hard for people not in a guild to even afford stuff. Recently they have been doing massive bannings of proven RMT and changes to certian rares that were camped alot by RMT. And the AH has never been better. Prices have dropped, items get sold more often, people stop buying gold and the server is just a bit better. Heck... even the thiefs knife which used to be like 20 mil is down to 100k or less.
In any case the article had a few good points, but it was making comprimises instead of stating the true fact that RMT are bad for games.
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