K GOOFBALLS. PVP IS JUST PART OF ONLINE GAMING, THERE ARE NEVER ANY REAL STAKES INVOLVED. YOU DIE AND LOSE XP/GEAR/FAKE MONEY..SO WHAT? DID YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS BECAUSE YOU LOST THE BIG BATTLE?
GET A LIFE NUBS.
QUIT THINKING LIKE THIS GAME YOU ARE PLAYING IS RL.
Yes Player Vrs Player is part of a lot of online games however so are COOP and Player Vrs Environment as well as the gaming community. . When you die and actually loose something you are loosing the investment in time you put into gathering whatever it was that you lost. Now for someone with no life that can waist the time that is worth very little but for most players that have a limited amount of game time the loss is substancal. For now lets assume you mean real PVP and not Ganking or Griefing as these are not PVP no matter how much the ones who do these try and claim it to be. PVP especially in Online games is not about what you loose or what you win but how well you fought. In MOGs it is not about how well you did but how well your team/clan did. If all you care about is padding your own score then you should be playing DMs not MOGS. I am not even going to go into MMOGS and especially MMORPGs but in all the cases the bottom line is that other than loosing a tower (flag) a town, a base or a territory there is no reason to loose anything else. And if it does not matter that you loose in game items than why would you need to loot anything? Or are you saying that loosing stuff does not matter but looting stuff should?
Quote: Roin:
I love pvp games. My whole guild is pretty pvp centric. Sure some of them love the looting idea, some don't. For me, it's all about that all-mighty "W". I like to win, I like competition. I have a fight with you and barely win. Now that's fun. You lose gear from being beat, and there goes my competition. Why wouldn't I want my enemies, to stay at their peak. It makes crushing them beneath my hill when we are on even ground, oh so much more satisfying. Yet if I lose it will force me to step my game up, not say oh damn I lost I better go farm for more gear ala if there were looting. Real pvpers don't need looting, real pvpers need challenging opponents.
I want your life not your gear. If I have to loot something let me chop a hand or ear or head, and mount it on my wall beside all the other people that I killed.
Exactly! The rush comes from a battle not from mulling around picking the bones after. In EVE I had just restarted my Avatar and was in 0.0 space, where I had left my guy when I had canceled 6 months earlier. As I moved toward empire I jumped into a Prat camp where within a few seconds I was podded. Now I have been podded probably more than any other player in the game.(stopped counting at 100) so I just spawned in my clone back in empire. Well one of the Prats sent me an email asking me for a copy of my kill mail and thanked me for the excitement. I sent him a copy of the kill mail listing what was lost (less that .1% of my ships and equipment) and asked him, “You seemed really excited there, exactly how long had you been camping that spot?” His replay was that they had been sitting there for almost six (6) hours and I was the first kill they had that day. I had surprised them and the guy had spilled his big gulp while another of the Prats had messed up his keyboard spilling the pizza he had been eating (said the guy was choking on the team speak) in a rush to lock me down before I could pass through the gate.
See this is where real PVPers differ from those that want PVP with full looting. To them killing (not necessarily battling) and getting one good item is the rush even if its one time a day. For us real PVPers, man if I’m not sweating within 2 min of the match and going balls to the wall for the entire match (or until I’m dead) it’s not a fun game. Other than to take their gun or pick up their grenades I would not want to stop and rummage through the guy I killed pockets. Besides being painting a bull’s eye on me that would actually slow down the game killing the PVP rush.
Quote: Vajuras::
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points
#1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP
ROFL… You get it but then you miss completely. Yes it is about making an impact as in a real war; this however has nothing to do with full looting. Now had you said, take an area then you would be correct. In a real war taking loot off a dead enemy means nothing, taking a bridge or hill does. By your own opening statement, you invalidate your ending one and this has nothing to do with Risk Vrs reward.
#2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want.
What’s this have to do with RVR? All you saying is that with full looting you can gain what you did not earn (work for) You may as well simply said “I don’t have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can buy it off EBAY and get what I want”.
#3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server.
Ah now we are getting closer to it, Now your saying, The Risk should be your victims and the reward should be yours. But you forget that RVR is a two edge sword.
#4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items
What? Ok, this makes absolutely no sense. Did you not say:”#1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim” So now that it is about gaining stuff from your victims. Also, you are confusing items with skill. Remember we are talking PVP, I know guys that start out every match with nothing more than a knife as their enemy will provide everything for them, I’m not that good I start off with a pistol as I never buy weps. Being the best warrior has nothing to do with equipment, equipment is to help lesser warriors become adequate. .
#5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other.
Huh…
#6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Hello… the most popular? By what gage? I play BF2, CF, COD, T2 and a lot of other FPS (since the games you are mentioning are FPS) which seem to be a lot more popular than the ones you mentioned.
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
RVR has nothing to do with full looting; Risk Vrs Reward has to do with responsibility. Not just accepting the responsibility of “I am willing to carry this bag of gold and could loose it” but also what most forget the responsibility for your actions as in “If I kill this guy and take all his gold I will be labeled an outlaw and be banished to the wilderness never to set foot in any town again” The is the true risk in RVR, are you willing to furbar your avatar for the reward.
Thats the part that all those that think full looting is a good idea seem to ignore or refuse to accept. The Risk of PKing.
lejohn anwser my bullet #5 ithen I will respond to you. IF you cant anwser bullet #5 then I will read the bright pink text in detail
About FPS games- really who cares. This is an MMORPG forum I play MMOs in which I can accrue wealth, cities, and ships. I want options. I want an option to get my wealth via PVP that is all there is to it.
If there is no progression then you speak of an FPS that does not charge me $15 thus it is really irrelevant. I was just pointing out the hot games usually have risk vs reward. But really FPS- um yeah I dont care to discuss that I'd play those if I wanted all the time pointless PVP for just bragging rights? In an MMO I have depth, progression, and a real virtual world that will not be wiped in 30 mins - couple hours
lejohn anwser my bullet #5 ithen I will respond to you. IF you cant anwser bullet #5 then I will read the bright pink text in detail
About FPS games- really who cares. This is an MMORPG forum I play MMOs in which I can accrue wealth, cities, and ships. I want options. I want an option to get my wealth via PVP that is all there is to it.
If there is no progression then you speak of an FPS that does not charge me $15 thus it is really irrelevant. I was just pointing out the hot games usually have risk vs reward. But really FPS- um yeah I dont care to discuss that I'd play those if I wanted all the time pointless PVP for just bragging rights? In an MMO I have depth, progression, and a real virtual world that will not be wiped in 30 mins - couple hours
It's not that I can't answer #5 but that I can not understand what you are trying to say:
#5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has.
I know what loots and I know what grinding (lvling) is and Honor is one of the credos of my clan, but What are loot honor grinds?
Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other.
Ok,,, how exactly do they know that PVPers can grind on each other? PVPer fight other PVPers, they are the solders, ie the users not the crafters which is why the only thing that real PVP based games is money/energy. So grinding on each other will only work for a short time as eventually each side has the same stuff.
So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations.
What does farming have to do with PVP? Farming is killing (insert generic monster here) for both the experince and the drops/skins. Unless you were allowed to, say skin your enemy, you can not farm other players in PVP games. Also you say a real risk and a real gain system, what do you mean? These two sentances do not complement each other and nothing in the paragrah shine any light on what you are eluding too.
No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other.
How would having a voice comm allow you to farm another person (also on a voice com)?
I find that wagering very valuable things can really turn a fun game into a more serious not so fun competition.
If there were more risk in PvP such as looting, I think it should be:
1. Realistic - If we think in spacial constrants, it isn't possible to to take all of someones items, weapons, and clothing and still have room for your own, I guess I am saying make bags have a realistic ammount of space and make items take up a more realistic ammount of space, that way someone couldn't clean you out after one death but would have to pick and choose what to loot.
2. No uber gear - If we don't use uber gear or even hierarchcal gear, but instead make all items balanced, meaning having the same ammount of points used for the weapons attack, speed, defense or what have you, just balanced differently so that even if a weapon is looted, finding a pretty good replacement won't be to hard. There isn't as much worry that countless hours of grind will be for not.
I think an alternative to losing loot would be losing/gaining social standing in your faction, or even better, make missions/quests to kill other players for rewards, so losing prevents you from progressing as fast, due to no monetary or equipment gains. Something to make higher risk PvP, have more meaning than just greed.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
to those that say there are not enough people willing to play hardcore PVP to make it viable...
Check out the poll, so far two thirds of the voters are in favour of it.
And while many of them may be in favour but wont necessarily play that, it's still a high figure.
I had many people vote in this poll last time, i think over 100 from memory, and again two thirds were in favour of a hardcore pvp ruleset server.
Just because people voting in this fashion doesn't mean that they want to play on the hardcore server themselves.
Don't you think that if there was that much demand, the developers would give it a serious look? You can be sure that many developers did, and they found very good reasons not to have a hardcore server.
First and most obvious is that having a hardcore server will mean a lot of players who cry even more for individual player class balance. That is not what MMORPG's are about. MMO is supposed to be about teamwork. As a result, the developers/designers are pushed all over the place in an effort to try to balance pvp/pve/group/individual/solo/etc. As many have found out, it's impossible to achieve that balance.
In any case, no matter how people voted here, hardcore PvP is a very, very small niche. Developers cannot afford to let a small niche affect game balance for every other player.
lejohn I speak of solutions for loot whoring games. EVE- I am playing that game right now. my posts do not really deal with EVE but your posts are based on that. I am a noob in EVE so I cant have a meaningful discussion with you from your point of view. Basically I jsut want for us all to progress our toons the same in both PVE/PVP. If I can loot a mob, I want to loot a player.
See where I am going with it? I jsut want exact same rules in both PVE/PVP. I want for us all to progress doing what we love! That is all I really want.
World OF Warcraft for instance has the honor grinds. they know PVPers can cheat so they make that grind hella painful. if PVE/PVP are equal this not a problem. apply a damn loot table to my victim like you do those mobs then. I want exact same rules in both PVE/PVP see? is this so wrong it is logical. I want whats logical.
I am currently working on a blog that addresses this. It is hella long. I thank all for your criticisms. lejohn and that other guy with the colored text. I might not fully agree but good points I am glad people are posting good points! I am always interested in learning the counterviews
[edit] but that is all I want- Just make PVE/PVP equal! I want equality! so this might not apply to EVE at all see? My posts are not about EVE which is something I dont understand fully yet.
Quote: Roin: I love pvp games. My whole guild is pretty pvp centric. Sure some of them love the looting idea, some don't. For me, it's all about that all-mighty "W". I like to win, I like competition. I have a fight with you and barely win. Now that's fun. You lose gear from being beat, and there goes my competition. Why wouldn't I want my enemies, to stay at their peak. It makes crushing them beneath my hill when we are on even ground, oh so much more satisfying. Yet if I lose it will force me to step my game up, not say oh damn I lost I better go farm for more gear ala if there were looting. Real pvpers don't need looting, real pvpers need challenging opponents.
I want your life not your gear. If I have to loot something let me chop a hand or ear or head, and mount it on my wall beside all the other people that I killed.
Exactly! The rush comes from a battle not from mulling around picking the bones after. In EVE I had just restarted my Avatar and was in 0.0 space, where I had left my guy when I had canceled 6 months earlier. As I moved toward empire I jumped into a Prat camp where within a few seconds I was podded. Now I have been podded probably more than any other player in the game.(stopped counting at 100) so I just spawned in my clone back in empire. Well one of the Prats sent me an email asking me for a copy of my kill mail and thanked me for the excitement. I sent him a copy of the kill mail listing what was lost (less that .1% of my ships and equipment) and asked him, “You seemed really excited there, exactly how long had you been camping that spot?” His replay was that they had been sitting there for almost six (6) hours and I was the first kill they had that day. I had surprised them and the guy had spilled his big gulp while another of the Prats had messed up his keyboard spilling the pizza he had been eating (said the guy was choking on the team speak) in a rush to lock me down before I could pass through the gate.
See this is where real PVPers differ from those that want PVP with full looting. To them killing (not necessarily battling) and getting one good item is the rush even if its one time a day. For us real PVPers, man if I’m not sweating within 2 min of the match and going balls to the wall for the entire match (or until I’m dead) it’s not a fun game. Other than to take their gun or pick up their grenades I would not want to stop and rummage through the guy I killed pockets. Besides being painting a bull’s eye on me that would actually slow down the game killing the PVP rush.
Exactly! This is what I want in a PvP game. Not looting, ganking, and otherwise uber-leet characters. I want an even playing field with fierce competition. The whole concept of looting is to make your character stronger so you can crush your opponents more easily (and make PvP versus those opponents more of a yawn). It also encourages play that is entirely unfair (Which is annoying, not fun), like having 5 people to take down 1-2 guys.
mylon what you want is an FPS go play that lol. MMOs have progression we want progression from PVP just like you have in PVE. I want it all from PVP- loot, xp. yeah WAR looks interesting if they can make it totally equal but i have my doubts developers know PVPers can always get on vent and farm each other til sundown - see Battlefield 2142 if u dont believe me
risk vs reward fixes this issue. stop asking for kiddie PVP go play FPS games for that shit lol
Exactly! This is what I want in a PvP game. Not looting, ganking, and otherwise uber-leet characters. I want an even playing field with fierce competition. The whole concept of looting is to make your character stronger so you can crush your opponents more easily (and make PvP versus those opponents more of a yawn). It also encourages play that is entirely unfair (Which is annoying, not fun), like having 5 people to take down 1-2 guys.
Yup, yup. That's what you find on PvP servers. The vast majority of encounters are totally lopsided because people try to find anything and everything they can to get an advantage. The easiest way is to move in gank groups.
In theory, a hardcore pvp server sounds fun. But the reality is often far from the truth. 95% gankfest and 5% fun.
I don't know, though. It really does take a different kind of game to make hardcore pvp work. That's where Eve fits in. Comparisons between Eve and most MMO's don't work because there are so many core differences, especially the playerbase.
pkim thats utter B.S. people get steamrolled because they are too dumb to make friends and team. this can happen on any PVP Server lol. go play an FPS if you want equal sides I want freedom in an MMO. WoW has even sides in the battlegrounds and so will WAR trust me kids PVP games are a drop in the bucket.
pkim thats utter B.S. people get steamrolled because they are too dumb to make friends and team. this can happen on any PVP Server lol. go play an FPS if you want equal sides I want freedom in an MMO. WoW has even sides in the battlegrounds and so will WAR trust me kids PVP games are a drop in the bucket.
Heh, we're basically saying the same thing.
Yes, people learn to move in groups, but how often are the groups equal?
When someone logs in to level up, they rarely form groups as big as those that form when people gang together to gank. It's still an MMO. People still have to quest/grind mobs/etc.
That's the thing. People will do everything they can to get an advantage. They rarely go out of their way to try to find even competitive battles.
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. I'm just saying that many encounters are going to be really lopsided.
pkim thats utter B.S. people get steamrolled because they are too dumb to make friends and team.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but calling folks "dumb because they don't make friends and team isn't a fair approach. Quite honestly, I solo a lot, and while I always join guilds in games, I don't consider any of the people I play with "friends". In fact, I don't really like most people, and a game model that forces me to do as you suggest does not appeal. My normal response in these kinds of environments is to play stealther classes that let me move around freely w/o much of a support network.
Hey, I've zerged before.... heck, in DAOC I used to run with Shadowclan and we never rolled w/o a couple of full groups, and regular runs of 40 or 50 players was not unheard of.... and while I had a lot of fun with those guys it felt sort of 'dirty'.... I mean, what was the honor in coming across a smaller group of players and smacking them flat..... and repeat the process until a bigger group came along and wacked us?
As to the OP's original question (must always stay on topic) while your poll shows support for a pvp ruleset server, a 2nd poll would probably show far few people willing to actually play on it. (they really just want to get you guys off of their servers)
Honestly, I felt Shadowbane had it right. I could not lose the armor/weapons/items I had equipped....so if I got killed I could just jump back up and fight again... but if I was carrying any loot in my backpack (and I frequently had tons of stuff) it was all fair game......
I don't mind some risk....I just don't want to have to bet my entire bankroll on every hand.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am "assuming" they did something unnatural in Shadowbane whereas meaningful PVP only happens around the guild cities. and they were prearranged. what death penalty did it have? WE must have a death penalty to stop idiots from rushing right back into a battle they cant win. there are many ways I cant cover them here in a forum post. some posted some ideas that are viable with tweaking and fine tuning. guild wars you stay dead til a priest rezzes you to be brief and that can work if u take it further
with open pvp and harsh death penalty we can have meaningful PVP anywhere. apply exact same rules to both PVE/PVP you will have a win. death penalty discourages clowns from running back into battle allowing the victor to have true impact and occupy a zone. this way we have strong pvp anywhere in the world
The byproduct is ganking and griefing but i say bring it. you might kick my butt but I will call in backup if you piss me off and make you suffer and 9/10 we will all get on the forums and joke about how much fun we had
pkim thats utter B.S. people get steamrolled because they are too dumb to make friends and team. this can happen on any PVP Server lol. go play an FPS if you want equal sides I want freedom in an MMO. WoW has even sides in the battlegrounds and so will WAR trust me kids PVP games are a drop in the bucket.
Heh, we're basically saying the same thing.
Yes, people learn to move in groups, but how often are the groups equal?
When someone logs in to level up, they rarely form groups as big as those that form when people gang together to gank. It's still an MMO. People still have to quest/grind mobs/etc.
That's the thing. People will do everything they can to get an advantage. They rarely go out of their way to try to find even competitive battles.
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. I'm just saying that many encounters are going to be really lopsided.
hey guy I like you but man what the---- I used to solo teams by myself in PVP games.
mobs are simply hotspots hell ya you gonna get served there is stopping it. You rolled on a pvp server you head will be in a chopping block 24/7
there is nothing wrong with having bandits that is a good dynamic. That is why I suggest a 'normal' option for those that just want to quest in peace.
But those of us that want to wage real wars will attempt to lockdown valuable resources. this can be mobs, minerals, towns, jsut anything we deem worthy of our attention
It's a real war. try going to china and harvesting oil and see what happens lol
When you go on a raid do you show up by yourself? Hell no you bring backup. Why is PVP supposed to be so easy? It is player run and people will be jerks and bullies and will wage war that is the whole point. Real war is never fair and never even
I got my ass jumped in real life once or twice you think I had even odds ever lol
Its a matter of preference. Looting is for those people that like Skydiving and other exciting things. Most of the fun things in life are fun because of RISK. If I don't have to worry about losing anything I'm NOT on the top of my game. It raises the bar for competitive people. If somepeople don't lose gear when they die, and most of their team is wiped out, They just quit or give up, and thats no fun. I find that looting usualy weeds out the less skilled PvP'ers, because lets face it, if you CAN'T win, you won't play. This is ultimately why you see people saying "I THINK LOOTING IS STUPID" well then if you like a game with looting, don't take somebodies loot when you kill them. (OR Should i say, IF you ever kill somebody)
hey guy I like you but man what the---- I used to solo teams by myself in PVP games.
mobs are simply hotspots hell ya you gonna get served there is stopping it. You rolled on a pvp server you head will be in a chopping block 24/7 there is nothing wrong with having bandits that is a good dynamic. That is why I suggest a 'normal' option for those that just want to quest in peace. But those of us that want to wage real wars will attempt to lockdown valuable resources. this can be mobs, minerals, towns, jsut anything we deem worthy of our attention It's a real war. try going to china and harvesting oil and see what happens lol
When you go on a raid do you show up by yourself? Hell no you bring backup. Why is PVP supposed to be so easy? It is player run and people will be jerks and bullies and will wage war that is the whole point. Real war is never fair and never even I got my ass jumped in real life once or twice you think I had even odds ever lol
Heh, this is a strange debate. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, but somehow I guess my words are coming across differently.
Yes, if you roll a pvp server, you are accepting the consequences. Yes, if given the chance, people will be competitive over valuable resources. Yes, smart people won't go anywhere alone.
My point is that the majority of encounters will be really uneven. Just look at EVE. Just look at practically any PvP server...even carebear PvP servers like WoW. The vast majority of encounters are gankfests.
It's still a gank if you're with 5 friends and a group of 20 steamrolls you. You might not be alone. You might be outfitted in the best gear. But what can you do against a gank squad?
Anyways....
I personally don't think hardcore PvP is worthwhile unless the combat is meaningful. By meaningful, I'm talking about actually having a real impact on the world. Outposts won and lost. Cities won and lost. Otherwise, I'd rather have more PvP encounters instead of waiting around looking for victims.
all PVP combat is meaningful in presence of risk vs reward. I see #1 warrior on the server. I kill his ass <if permadeath> in effect. he's gone forever now I am #1. The more harsh risk vs reward, the bigger my impact. I do not follow your logic?
have you played Starport? you see "shift of power" in blink of an eye. I was like #20 then got bumped down low overnight when Assassin8 hit all my planets. it is a simple 2D game but has excellent risk vs reward and easy to just jump in and play.
I do not know of this 20 versus 5 stuff. if you outnumbered then you should get your a$$ kicked. just wait til some of them logout then pay them back. in starport- you will always get your revenge cause it 100% persistant. no logging out. you can log- but all your stuff still online lol.
Permadeath was a figurative example purely. but I am totally down for permadeath I will try any game given I have the time. I even tried LOTRO during Beta <puke, puke, yuck>
[edit] I mean "shift of power" as in all your planets, banks, cities gone (capped by another player). "Shift of Power". in starport pretty much anything can be ninja'ed if your defenses not tight.
make a long story short- #1 is a warrior that has a monopoly on the universe. In Starport- #1 is the lead player. Killing #1 can earn ya bounties and give ya big xp gain. Taking all he owns can net ya a ton of cash. "Shift of Power"- I take what you had now I have progressed and you got bumped down
Risk versus Reward- all encompassing- should be more than jsut loot I speak of fighting epic wars over the universe / world,etc
now you see why I am writing a lengthy blog post on this one. but anyway, risk versus reward should have something huge and epic at stake. ganking the wrong guy will wind up costing ya big do to player run bounties, politics, etc
in games without player run bounties and no city ownership u got less to lose
in games with entire kingdoms on the line it become political. You negotiate and make friends are get torched.
all this 20 vs 5 stuff umm,,,,, he gives a care. they can kill me but I still got my planets so bounce right back. take all that I own im screwed. that is why u make friends and cover each other.
Exactly! This is what I want in a PvP game. Not looting, ganking, and otherwise uber-leet characters. I want an even playing field with fierce competition. The whole concept of looting is to make your character stronger so you can crush your opponents more easily (and make PvP versus those opponents more of a yawn). It also encourages play that is entirely unfair (Which is annoying, not fun), like having 5 people to take down 1-2 guys.
Yup, yup. That's what you find on PvP servers. The vast majority of encounters are totally lopsided because people try to find anything and everything they can to get an advantage. The easiest way is to move in gank groups.
In theory, a hardcore pvp server sounds fun. But the reality is often far from the truth. 95% gankfest and 5% fun.
I don't know, though. It really does take a different kind of game to make hardcore pvp work. That's where Eve fits in. Comparisons between Eve and most MMO's don't work because there are so many core differences, especially the playerbase.
edit: grammar.
There are rules you can apply to PVP to make it non total gank fest.
Why not put a timer on how long until you can loot a corpse? Giving the person time to get back to his or her body, maybe gather friends to charge back and reclaim her stuff.
The timer can be organic in relation to where she died, what level she was, etc.
Why not allot perhaps a certain amount of items you can lock, so that if you die, you'll still have your 3 most treasured items?
These ideas are just that, ideas, they may be crap or not, but as you can see, you don't have to make PVP Hardcore so clear cut.
Oh, and by the way, if i'm ever killed or ganked, i get smart and gather some friends or guildies or failing that put a call out for some 'aid' to get back as my attackers.
I dont just throw my hands up in the air and shout "i been ganked" and shut down...
PVP Hardcore can and does work, and its not as one dimensional as many believe it to be.
I think this debate is ultimatly about what people value in a game enough to fight for it and maybe lose it in the process. And is also a reason why I think people's true personalities come out when they are playing in a virtual world.
Unlike some others that I would consider having what i call warrior personalities, I don't care to much about besting people on a personal level so I don't really care too much about looting others or beating the highest ranked guy, and when/if the situation arises I let them keep all their stuff, and I don't see why they would take mine. Looting gear seems a bit dishonest too me, but I don't mind if it is in a game, just not a feature I look for.
I consider myself more of a hopeful soldier personality, I fight for change, gaining and losing territory, securing resources for my faction, liberating and building cities, and above all helping other players in my faction, that is what I am more willing to risk, losing gear is more of an annoyance that distracts me from my goal.
I am sure there are many other reasons why people fight, or don't, and this is probably the reason why everyone is having such a hard time communicating there likes, dislikes and intentions.
That is my take anyway.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
these are just games and need to be treated as such. who cares if theres risk or not it just needs to be fun and enjoyable. makin someone loose there equipment is not fun.
Comments
Quote: Krogg:
K GOOFBALLS. PVP IS JUST PART OF ONLINE GAMING, THERE ARE NEVER ANY REAL STAKES INVOLVED. YOU DIE AND LOSE XP/GEAR/FAKE MONEY..SO WHAT? DID YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS BECAUSE YOU LOST THE BIG BATTLE?
GET A LIFE NUBS.
QUIT THINKING LIKE THIS GAME YOU ARE PLAYING IS RL.
Yes Player Vrs Player is part of a lot of online games however so are COOP and Player Vrs Environment as well as the gaming community. . When you die and actually loose something you are loosing the investment in time you put into gathering whatever it was that you lost. Now for someone with no life that can waist the time that is worth very little but for most players that have a limited amount of game time the loss is substancal. For now lets assume you mean real PVP and not Ganking or Griefing as these are not PVP no matter how much the ones who do these try and claim it to be. PVP especially in Online games is not about what you loose or what you win but how well you fought. In MOGs it is not about how well you did but how well your team/clan did. If all you care about is padding your own score then you should be playing DMs not MOGS. I am not even going to go into MMOGS and especially MMORPGs but in all the cases the bottom line is that other than loosing a tower (flag) a town, a base or a territory there is no reason to loose anything else. And if it does not matter that you loose in game items than why would you need to loot anything? Or are you saying that loosing stuff does not matter but looting stuff should?
Quote: Roin:
I love pvp games. My whole guild is pretty pvp centric. Sure some of them love the looting idea, some don't. For me, it's all about that all-mighty "W". I like to win, I like competition. I have a fight with you and barely win. Now that's fun. You lose gear from being beat, and there goes my competition. Why wouldn't I want my enemies, to stay at their peak. It makes crushing them beneath my hill when we are on even ground, oh so much more satisfying. Yet if I lose it will force me to step my game up, not say oh damn I lost I better go farm for more gear ala if there were looting. Real pvpers don't need looting, real pvpers need challenging opponents.
I want your life not your gear. If I have to loot something let me chop a hand or ear or head, and mount it on my wall beside all the other people that I killed.
Exactly! The rush comes from a battle not from mulling around picking the bones after. In EVE I had just restarted my Avatar and was in 0.0 space, where I had left my guy when I had canceled 6 months earlier. As I moved toward empire I jumped into a Prat camp where within a few seconds I was podded. Now I have been podded probably more than any other player in the game.(stopped counting at 100) so I just spawned in my clone back in empire. Well one of the Prats sent me an email asking me for a copy of my kill mail and thanked me for the excitement. I sent him a copy of the kill mail listing what was lost (less that .1% of my ships and equipment) and asked him, “You seemed really excited there, exactly how long had you been camping that spot?” His replay was that they had been sitting there for almost six (6) hours and I was the first kill they had that day. I had surprised them and the guy had spilled his big gulp while another of the Prats had messed up his keyboard spilling the pizza he had been eating (said the guy was choking on the team speak) in a rush to lock me down before I could pass through the gate.
See this is where real PVPers differ from those that want PVP with full looting. To them killing (not necessarily battling) and getting one good item is the rush even if its one time a day. For us real PVPers, man if I’m not sweating within 2 min of the match and going balls to the wall for the entire match (or until I’m dead) it’s not a fun game. Other than to take their gun or pick up their grenades I would not want to stop and rummage through the guy I killed pockets. Besides being painting a bull’s eye on me that would actually slow down the game killing the PVP rush.
Quote: Vajuras::
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points
#1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP
ROFL… You get it but then you miss completely. Yes it is about making an impact as in a real war; this however has nothing to do with full looting. Now had you said, take an area then you would be correct. In a real war taking loot off a dead enemy means nothing, taking a bridge or hill does. By your own opening statement, you invalidate your ending one and this has nothing to do with Risk Vrs reward.
#2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want.
What’s this have to do with RVR? All you saying is that with full looting you can gain what you did not earn (work for) You may as well simply said “I don’t have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can buy it off EBAY and get what I want”.
#3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server.
Ah now we are getting closer to it, Now your saying, The Risk should be your victims and the reward should be yours. But you forget that RVR is a two edge sword.
#4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items
What? Ok, this makes absolutely no sense. Did you not say:” #1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim” So now that it is about gaining stuff from your victims. Also, you are confusing items with skill. Remember we are talking PVP, I know guys that start out every match with nothing more than a knife as their enemy will provide everything for them, I’m not that good I start off with a pistol as I never buy weps. Being the best warrior has nothing to do with equipment, equipment is to help lesser warriors become adequate. .
#5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other.
Huh…
#6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Hello… the most popular? By what gage? I play BF2, CF, COD, T2 and a lot of other FPS (since the games you are mentioning are FPS) which seem to be a lot more popular than the ones you mentioned.
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
RVR has nothing to do with full looting; Risk Vrs Reward has to do with responsibility. Not just accepting the responsibility of “I am willing to carry this bag of gold and could loose it” but also what most forget the responsibility for your actions as in “If I kill this guy and take all his gold I will be labeled an outlaw and be banished to the wilderness never to set foot in any town again” The is the true risk in RVR, are you willing to furbar your avatar for the reward.
Thats the part that all those that think full looting is a good idea seem to ignore or refuse to accept. The Risk of PKing.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
lejohn anwser my bullet #5 ithen I will respond to you. IF you cant anwser bullet #5 then I will read the bright pink text in detail
About FPS games- really who cares. This is an MMORPG forum I play MMOs in which I can accrue wealth, cities, and ships. I want options. I want an option to get my wealth via PVP that is all there is to it.
If there is no progression then you speak of an FPS that does not charge me $15 thus it is really irrelevant. I was just pointing out the hot games usually have risk vs reward. But really FPS- um yeah I dont care to discuss that I'd play those if I wanted all the time pointless PVP for just bragging rights? In an MMO I have depth, progression, and a real virtual world that will not be wiped in 30 mins - couple hours
It's not that I can't answer #5 but that I can not understand what you are trying to say:
#5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has.
I know what loots and I know what grinding (lvling) is and Honor is one of the credos of my clan, but What are loot honor grinds?
Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other.
Ok,,, how exactly do they know that PVPers can grind on each other? PVPer fight other PVPers, they are the solders, ie the users not the crafters which is why the only thing that real PVP based games is money/energy. So grinding on each other will only work for a short time as eventually each side has the same stuff.
So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations.
What does farming have to do with PVP? Farming is killing (insert generic monster here) for both the experince and the drops/skins. Unless you were allowed to, say skin your enemy, you can not farm other players in PVP games. Also you say a real risk and a real gain system, what do you mean? These two sentances do not complement each other and nothing in the paragrah shine any light on what you are eluding too.
No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other.
How would having a voice comm allow you to farm another person (also on a voice com)?
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
I find that wagering very valuable things can really turn a fun game into a more serious not so fun competition.
If there were more risk in PvP such as looting, I think it should be:
1. Realistic - If we think in spacial constrants, it isn't possible to to take all of someones items, weapons, and clothing and still have room for your own, I guess I am saying make bags have a realistic ammount of space and make items take up a more realistic ammount of space, that way someone couldn't clean you out after one death but would have to pick and choose what to loot.
2. No uber gear - If we don't use uber gear or even hierarchcal gear, but instead make all items balanced, meaning having the same ammount of points used for the weapons attack, speed, defense or what have you, just balanced differently so that even if a weapon is looted, finding a pretty good replacement won't be to hard. There isn't as much worry that countless hours of grind will be for not.
I think an alternative to losing loot would be losing/gaining social standing in your faction, or even better, make missions/quests to kill other players for rewards, so losing prevents you from progressing as fast, due to no monetary or equipment gains. Something to make higher risk PvP, have more meaning than just greed.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
ya pvp like in WoW or warhammer is fun for a little while, but then your like whats the point?
Bring on darkfall!
Don't you think that if there was that much demand, the developers would give it a serious look? You can be sure that many developers did, and they found very good reasons not to have a hardcore server.
First and most obvious is that having a hardcore server will mean a lot of players who cry even more for individual player class balance. That is not what MMORPG's are about. MMO is supposed to be about teamwork. As a result, the developers/designers are pushed all over the place in an effort to try to balance pvp/pve/group/individual/solo/etc. As many have found out, it's impossible to achieve that balance.
In any case, no matter how people voted here, hardcore PvP is a very, very small niche. Developers cannot afford to let a small niche affect game balance for every other player.
lejohn I speak of solutions for loot whoring games. EVE- I am playing that game right now. my posts do not really deal with EVE but your posts are based on that. I am a noob in EVE so I cant have a meaningful discussion with you from your point of view. Basically I jsut want for us all to progress our toons the same in both PVE/PVP. If I can loot a mob, I want to loot a player.
See where I am going with it? I jsut want exact same rules in both PVE/PVP. I want for us all to progress doing what we love! That is all I really want.
World OF Warcraft for instance has the honor grinds. they know PVPers can cheat so they make that grind hella painful. if PVE/PVP are equal this not a problem. apply a damn loot table to my victim like you do those mobs then. I want exact same rules in both PVE/PVP see? is this so wrong it is logical. I want whats logical.
I am currently working on a blog that addresses this. It is hella long. I thank all for your criticisms. lejohn and that other guy with the colored text. I might not fully agree but good points I am glad people are posting good points! I am always interested in learning the counterviews
[edit] but that is all I want- Just make PVE/PVP equal! I want equality! so this might not apply to EVE at all see? My posts are not about EVE which is something I dont understand fully yet.
Exactly! This is what I want in a PvP game. Not looting, ganking, and otherwise uber-leet characters. I want an even playing field with fierce competition. The whole concept of looting is to make your character stronger so you can crush your opponents more easily (and make PvP versus those opponents more of a yawn). It also encourages play that is entirely unfair (Which is annoying, not fun), like having 5 people to take down 1-2 guys.
mylon what you want is an FPS go play that lol. MMOs have progression we want progression from PVP just like you have in PVE. I want it all from PVP- loot, xp. yeah WAR looks interesting if they can make it totally equal but i have my doubts developers know PVPers can always get on vent and farm each other til sundown - see Battlefield 2142 if u dont believe me
risk vs reward fixes this issue. stop asking for kiddie PVP go play FPS games for that shit lol
Yup, yup. That's what you find on PvP servers. The vast majority of encounters are totally lopsided because people try to find anything and everything they can to get an advantage. The easiest way is to move in gank groups.
In theory, a hardcore pvp server sounds fun. But the reality is often far from the truth. 95% gankfest and 5% fun.
I don't know, though. It really does take a different kind of game to make hardcore pvp work. That's where Eve fits in. Comparisons between Eve and most MMO's don't work because there are so many core differences, especially the playerbase.
edit: grammar.
pkim thats utter B.S. people get steamrolled because they are too dumb to make friends and team. this can happen on any PVP Server lol. go play an FPS if you want equal sides I want freedom in an MMO. WoW has even sides in the battlegrounds and so will WAR trust me kids PVP games are a drop in the bucket.
Yes, people learn to move in groups, but how often are the groups equal?
When someone logs in to level up, they rarely form groups as big as those that form when people gang together to gank. It's still an MMO. People still have to quest/grind mobs/etc.
That's the thing. People will do everything they can to get an advantage. They rarely go out of their way to try to find even competitive battles.
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. I'm just saying that many encounters are going to be really lopsided.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but calling folks "dumb because they don't make friends and team isn't a fair approach. Quite honestly, I solo a lot, and while I always join guilds in games, I don't consider any of the people I play with "friends". In fact, I don't really like most people, and a game model that forces me to do as you suggest does not appeal. My normal response in these kinds of environments is to play stealther classes that let me move around freely w/o much of a support network.
Hey, I've zerged before.... heck, in DAOC I used to run with Shadowclan and we never rolled w/o a couple of full groups, and regular runs of 40 or 50 players was not unheard of.... and while I had a lot of fun with those guys it felt sort of 'dirty'.... I mean, what was the honor in coming across a smaller group of players and smacking them flat..... and repeat the process until a bigger group came along and wacked us?
As to the OP's original question (must always stay on topic) while your poll shows support for a pvp ruleset server, a 2nd poll would probably show far few people willing to actually play on it. (they really just want to get you guys off of their servers)
Honestly, I felt Shadowbane had it right. I could not lose the armor/weapons/items I had equipped....so if I got killed I could just jump back up and fight again... but if I was carrying any loot in my backpack (and I frequently had tons of stuff) it was all fair game......
I don't mind some risk....I just don't want to have to bet my entire bankroll on every hand.....
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kyleran writes a good post
I am "assuming" they did something unnatural in Shadowbane whereas meaningful PVP only happens around the guild cities. and they were prearranged. what death penalty did it have? WE must have a death penalty to stop idiots from rushing right back into a battle they cant win. there are many ways I cant cover them here in a forum post. some posted some ideas that are viable with tweaking and fine tuning. guild wars you stay dead til a priest rezzes you to be brief and that can work if u take it further
with open pvp and harsh death penalty we can have meaningful PVP anywhere. apply exact same rules to both PVE/PVP you will have a win. death penalty discourages clowns from running back into battle allowing the victor to have true impact and occupy a zone. this way we have strong pvp anywhere in the world
The byproduct is ganking and griefing but i say bring it. you might kick my butt but I will call in backup if you piss me off and make you suffer and 9/10 we will all get on the forums and joke about how much fun we had
Yes, people learn to move in groups, but how often are the groups equal?
When someone logs in to level up, they rarely form groups as big as those that form when people gang together to gank. It's still an MMO. People still have to quest/grind mobs/etc.
That's the thing. People will do everything they can to get an advantage. They rarely go out of their way to try to find even competitive battles.
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. I'm just saying that many encounters are going to be really lopsided.
hey guy I like you but man what the---- I used to solo teams by myself in PVP games.
mobs are simply hotspots hell ya you gonna get served there is stopping it. You rolled on a pvp server you head will be in a chopping block 24/7
there is nothing wrong with having bandits that is a good dynamic. That is why I suggest a 'normal' option for those that just want to quest in peace.
But those of us that want to wage real wars will attempt to lockdown valuable resources. this can be mobs, minerals, towns, jsut anything we deem worthy of our attention
It's a real war. try going to china and harvesting oil and see what happens lol
When you go on a raid do you show up by yourself? Hell no you bring backup. Why is PVP supposed to be so easy? It is player run and people will be jerks and bullies and will wage war that is the whole point. Real war is never fair and never even
I got my ass jumped in real life once or twice you think I had even odds ever lol
As long as from a PvE point of view I miss nothing beside the players involved into PvP, I don't mind what happen there.
Many servers for PvP? Sure...but for each set of rule for PvP, I want a twist for PvE since there are more PvE players anyway.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Its a matter of preference. Looting is for those people that like Skydiving and other exciting things. Most of the fun things in life are fun because of RISK. If I don't have to worry about losing anything I'm NOT on the top of my game. It raises the bar for competitive people. If somepeople don't lose gear when they die, and most of their team is wiped out, They just quit or give up, and thats no fun. I find that looting usualy weeds out the less skilled PvP'ers, because lets face it, if you CAN'T win, you won't play. This is ultimately why you see people saying "I THINK LOOTING IS STUPID" well then if you like a game with looting, don't take somebodies loot when you kill them. (OR Should i say, IF you ever kill somebody)
Heh, this is a strange debate. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, but somehow I guess my words are coming across differently.
Yes, if you roll a pvp server, you are accepting the consequences. Yes, if given the chance, people will be competitive over valuable resources. Yes, smart people won't go anywhere alone.
My point is that the majority of encounters will be really uneven. Just look at EVE. Just look at practically any PvP server...even carebear PvP servers like WoW. The vast majority of encounters are gankfests.
It's still a gank if you're with 5 friends and a group of 20 steamrolls you. You might not be alone. You might be outfitted in the best gear. But what can you do against a gank squad?
Anyways....
I personally don't think hardcore PvP is worthwhile unless the combat is meaningful. By meaningful, I'm talking about actually having a real impact on the world. Outposts won and lost. Cities won and lost. Otherwise, I'd rather have more PvP encounters instead of waiting around looking for victims.
all PVP combat is meaningful in presence of risk vs reward. I see #1 warrior on the server. I kill his ass <if permadeath> in effect. he's gone forever now I am #1. The more harsh risk vs reward, the bigger my impact. I do not follow your logic?
have you played Starport? you see "shift of power" in blink of an eye. I was like #20 then got bumped down low overnight when Assassin8 hit all my planets. it is a simple 2D game but has excellent risk vs reward and easy to just jump in and play.
I do not know of this 20 versus 5 stuff. if you outnumbered then you should get your a$$ kicked. just wait til some of them logout then pay them back. in starport- you will always get your revenge cause it 100% persistant. no logging out. you can log- but all your stuff still online lol.
risk vs reward FTW!
As much as I support risk vs reward, permadeath is taking it a bit far IMO
Permadeath was a figurative example purely. but I am totally down for permadeath I will try any game given I have the time. I even tried LOTRO during Beta <puke, puke, yuck>
[edit] I mean "shift of power" as in all your planets, banks, cities gone (capped by another player). "Shift of Power". in starport pretty much anything can be ninja'ed if your defenses not tight.
make a long story short- #1 is a warrior that has a monopoly on the universe. In Starport- #1 is the lead player. Killing #1 can earn ya bounties and give ya big xp gain. Taking all he owns can net ya a ton of cash. "Shift of Power"- I take what you had now I have progressed and you got bumped down
Risk versus Reward- all encompassing- should be more than jsut loot I speak of fighting epic wars over the universe / world,etc
now you see why I am writing a lengthy blog post on this one. but anyway, risk versus reward should have something huge and epic at stake. ganking the wrong guy will wind up costing ya big do to player run bounties, politics, etc
in games without player run bounties and no city ownership u got less to lose
in games with entire kingdoms on the line it become political. You negotiate and make friends are get torched.
all this 20 vs 5 stuff umm,,,,, he gives a care. they can kill me but I still got my planets so bounce right back. take all that I own im screwed. that is why u make friends and cover each other.
Yup, yup. That's what you find on PvP servers. The vast majority of encounters are totally lopsided because people try to find anything and everything they can to get an advantage. The easiest way is to move in gank groups.
In theory, a hardcore pvp server sounds fun. But the reality is often far from the truth. 95% gankfest and 5% fun.
I don't know, though. It really does take a different kind of game to make hardcore pvp work. That's where Eve fits in. Comparisons between Eve and most MMO's don't work because there are so many core differences, especially the playerbase.
edit: grammar.
There are rules you can apply to PVP to make it non total gank fest.
Why not put a timer on how long until you can loot a corpse? Giving the person time to get back to his or her body, maybe gather friends to charge back and reclaim her stuff.
The timer can be organic in relation to where she died, what level she was, etc.
Why not allot perhaps a certain amount of items you can lock, so that if you die, you'll still have your 3 most treasured items?
These ideas are just that, ideas, they may be crap or not, but as you can see, you don't have to make PVP Hardcore so clear cut.
Oh, and by the way, if i'm ever killed or ganked, i get smart and gather some friends or guildies or failing that put a call out for some 'aid' to get back as my attackers.
I dont just throw my hands up in the air and shout "i been ganked" and shut down...
PVP Hardcore can and does work, and its not as one dimensional as many believe it to be.
----
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I think this debate is ultimatly about what people value in a game enough to fight for it and maybe lose it in the process. And is also a reason why I think people's true personalities come out when they are playing in a virtual world.
Unlike some others that I would consider having what i call warrior personalities, I don't care to much about besting people on a personal level so I don't really care too much about looting others or beating the highest ranked guy, and when/if the situation arises I let them keep all their stuff, and I don't see why they would take mine. Looting gear seems a bit dishonest too me, but I don't mind if it is in a game, just not a feature I look for.
I consider myself more of a hopeful soldier personality, I fight for change, gaining and losing territory, securing resources for my faction, liberating and building cities, and above all helping other players in my faction, that is what I am more willing to risk, losing gear is more of an annoyance that distracts me from my goal.
I am sure there are many other reasons why people fight, or don't, and this is probably the reason why everyone is having such a hard time communicating there likes, dislikes and intentions.
That is my take anyway.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
these are just games and need to be treated as such. who cares if theres risk or not it just needs to be fun and enjoyable. makin someone loose there equipment is not fun.