Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things. In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that. That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
"I was foolish to expect Sparta's commitment to match our own."
I gotta level a "WTF" at people who're saying that crafting isn't relevant in a "war-based" setting.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
That's a bit of a narrow viewpoint; I hope the developers have a broader one.
A decent crafting system adds a LOT of depth to a game and helps alleviate the "go kill boss X a dozen times 'til he eventually drops something you can use" element of modern MMO's.
Originally posted by TeflonEddie Originally posted by Sornin
I gotta level a "WTF" at people who're saying that crafting isn't relevant in a "war-based" setting.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things. In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that. That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep. That's a bit of a narrow viewpoint; I hope the developers have a broader one. A decent crafting system adds a LOT of depth to a game and helps alleviate the "go kill boss X a dozen times 'til he eventually drops something you can use" element of modern MMO's.
It is not about being narrow or broad, it is about being correct. You fail to grasp this simple concept - soldiers are soldiers, craftsmen are craftsmen. There is a war going on, and during a war a soldier does not go out and farm wheat and bake bread, he fights.
You can call that narrow, but it is fact. However, like I said, there will be some form of crafting to attempt to appease people who find it fun (how on earth collecting reagents and clicking an icon to put them together is fun is beyond me - I call it tedious and pointless), but do not expect it to be amazing. The fact that EA Mythic has barely even mentioned it all, ever, is a sign that it is not fundamental to the game. The selling points are RvR, public quests, and the Warhammer lore, and that is what will come through in the finished product.
As Paul Barnett said in a podcast, "Don't play our game if you want to make pants."
I think that is correct, anyway, and shows the general attitude toward crafting, and that is that their game is not at all about it.
Warhammer is not about the happy home maker. It is not about crafting. It is about war. It is bloody,ugly and endless. No player run economy, no decorating your home with flowers. no crafting pretty pink shirts. Just endless battles and death. That is Warhammer.
I gotta level a "WTF" at people who're saying that crafting isn't relevant in a "war-based" setting.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
Ah..I couldn't pass this one up..LOL...Warriors do craft and in history those warriors that couldn't craft or didn't have a family member that could craft were not very successful.
Native American warriors had to create their own arrows and bows, didn't they?
Warriors like anyone else have to survive.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
I gotta level a "WTF" at people who're saying that crafting isn't relevant in a "war-based" setting.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
Ah..I couldn't pass this one up..LOL...Warriors do craft and in history those warriors that couldn't craft or didn't have a family member that could craft were not very successful.
Native American warriors had to create their own arrows and bows, didn't they?
Warriors like anyone else have to survive.
WAR is not a historical simulation. Its main design was to throw players into PVP situations early and often and keep them engaged in it throughout their gaming experience.
Crafting, Housing are all secondary afterthoughts that I agree, some players favor over combat. This is not the game for them. WAR is not trying to be all things to all players. Time will tell if this was a good decision or not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is not about being narrow or broad, it is about being correct. You fail to grasp this simple concept - soldiers are soldiers, craftsmen are craftsmen. There is a war going on, and during a war a soldier does not go out and farm wheat and bake bread, he fights. You can call that narrow, but it is fact. However, like I said, there will be some form of crafting to attempt to appease people who find it fun (how on earth collecting reagents and clicking an icon to put them together is fun is beyond me - I call it tedious and pointless), but do not expect it to be amazing. The fact that EA Mythic has barely even mentioned it all, ever, is a sign that it is not fundamental to the game. The selling points are RvR, public quests, and the Warhammer lore, and that is what will come through in the finished product. As Paul Barnett said in a podcast, "Don't play our game if you want to make pants." I think that is correct, anyway, and shows the general attitude toward crafting, and that is that their game is not at all about it.
I "fail to grasp" nothing. I'm happy to have a discussion, but you could set aside the ostentatiousness. By your narrow (and yes, it IS narrow) definition, the game should consist of nothing more than a battlefield with a couple of armies and you as a grunt stood in one of them 'til you get the order to charge.
You may consider the crafting aspect of games tedious and pointless, but yours is not the only opinion on the matter. Others, myself included, enjoy the achievement of chopping off the head of an enemy with a nice powerful weapon that we crafted ourselves.
I get that the game isn't designed to be a crafting game with added PvP .. but given the choice I'll take item-progression from crafting over item-progression from farming raid/boss mobs any day.
At the end of the day, item upgrades have to come from somewhere.
I gotta level a "WTF" at people who're saying that crafting isn't relevant in a "war-based" setting.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
Ah..I couldn't pass this one up..LOL...Warriors do craft and in history those warriors that couldn't craft or didn't have a family member that could craft were not very successful.
Native American warriors had to create their own arrows and bows, didn't they?
Warriors like anyone else have to survive.
This game has nothing to do with any sort of real history. It is Warhammer. It is pure fantasy. So in this lore no warriors do not craft. They fight, kill and die. I am really kind of shocked that anyone would want crafting or housing. This isnt going to be WoW 2.0 it is Warhammer. It is all about the battle.
It is not about being narrow or broad, it is about being correct. You fail to grasp this simple concept - soldiers are soldiers, craftsmen are craftsmen. There is a war going on, and during a war a soldier does not go out and farm wheat and bake bread, he fights. You can call that narrow, but it is fact. However, like I said, there will be some form of crafting to attempt to appease people who find it fun (how on earth collecting reagents and clicking an icon to put them together is fun is beyond me - I call it tedious and pointless), but do not expect it to be amazing. The fact that EA Mythic has barely even mentioned it all, ever, is a sign that it is not fundamental to the game. The selling points are RvR, public quests, and the Warhammer lore, and that is what will come through in the finished product. As Paul Barnett said in a podcast, "Don't play our game if you want to make pants." I think that is correct, anyway, and shows the general attitude toward crafting, and that is that their game is not at all about it.
I "fail to grasp" nothing. I'm happy to have a discussion, but you could set aside the ostentatiousness. By your narrow (and yes, it IS narrow) definition, the game should consist of nothing more than a battlefield with a couple of armies and you as a grunt stood in one of them 'til you get the order to charge.
You may consider the crafting aspect of games tedious and pointless, but yours is not the only opinion on the matter. Others, myself included, enjoy the achievement of chopping off the head of an enemy with a nice powerful weapon that we crafted ourselves. I get that the game isn't designed to be a crafting game with added PvP .. but given the choice I'll take item-progression from crafting over item-progression from farming raid/boss mobs any day. At the end of the day, item upgrades have to come from somewhere.
But you do fail to grasp it as you fail to grasp the direction of the developers - or you grasp it and choose to ignore it, take your pick. You are asking for a deep crafting system in a game that the developers have said from the beginning is about eternal war. They have not ever stated they want to show the home life of the characters, which is, at best, what crafting is. In everything they tell us the message is, "War, war, war."
Also, you are being rather glib when you call that my definition of the game, and then resort to some rather spurious conclusions based on it. War in this game is about more than just RvR - it is about waging war on all fronts, which includes the PvE aspect that ties into RvR.
Crafting ties into nothing - that is my point. It makes perfect sense in a game that is more of a simulation with no real theme or direction, but that is not what WAR is. It is not an open-ended game where you are plunked down and told, "Go do what you want." You are plunked down and told, "Go kill the enemy."
Anyway, I understand people enjoy crafting, but opinions on how enjoyable it is do not matter here - not mine, not yours, not anyone's. All that matters is the type of game WAR is. Plenty of other games have crafting, so if it is a big enough deal to some players, they can play those ones. Games, unfortunately, will never cater to everyone, nor will those they cater to even be perfectly satisfied.
Oh, as for satisfying item progression, I think WAR has the best one of all - slay a player character, loot them, then hack off the next head with a sword you won from killing the first guy. Or, also as good, raid a capital city and loot their treasure hoard, then use the enemy's weapons against them in the ultimate ironic twist.
Originally posted by TeflonEddie You seem to have missed my point so I'll do it again... but I'll spell it out.. and color code it. WAR - Spartans Other MMOs - Arcadians:
Remind me, didn't those spartans all die in the end?
But not before 300 real warriors killed thousands and thousands of pretend-soldiers who normally spend the day baking cakes and darning socks.
You seem to have missed my point so I'll do it again... but I'll spell it out.. and color code it.
WAR - Spartans
Other MMOs - Arcadians:
Remind me, didn't those spartans all die in the end?
But not before 300 real warriors killed thousands and thousands of pretend-soldiers who normally spend the day baking cakes and darning socks.
F#$* yeah dude. Exactly.
No time spent on crafting/housing means more time spent fighting. Which means more dev focus on fighting. Which means better fighting. Which means more time fighting.
But you do fail to grasp it as you fail to grasp the direction of the developers - or you grasp it and choose to ignore it, take your pick. You are asking for a deep crafting system in a game that the developers have said from the beginning is about eternal war. They have not ever stated they want to show the home life of the characters, which is, at best, what crafting is. In everything they tell us the message is, "War, war, war." Warfare needs weapons, someone needs to make them. I'm not expecting goblin bakers, but a dwarven warrior/smith would not be outside the scope of the lore. Also, you are being rather glib when you call that my definition of the game, and then resort to some rather spurious conclusions based on it. War in this game is about more than just RvR - it is about waging war on all fronts, which includes the PvE aspect that ties into RvR. Would not war on all fronts also include resource management/munitions supply? Crafting ties into nothing - that is my point. It makes perfect sense in a game that is more of a simulation with no real theme or direction, but that is not what WAR is. It is not an open-ended game where you are plunked down and told, "Go do what you want." You are plunked down and told, "Go kill the enemy." No problem with that, but where do you get the sword from to do that? Why not scavenge stuff from fallen enemies and use it to reinforce/craft more effective weapons? Anyway, I understand people enjoy crafting, but opinions on how enjoyable it is do not matter here - not mine, not yours, not anyone's. All that matters is the type of game WAR is. Plenty of other games have crafting, so if it is a big enough deal to some players, they can play those ones. Games, unfortunately, will never cater to everyone, nor will those they cater to even be perfectly satisfied. If the comment on page 1 of this thread (the developers statement of intent in respect to the crafting system) is accurate, WAR WILL have crafting too. I'm hoping it's a good one. Oh, as for satisfying item progression, I think WAR has the best one of all - slay a player character, loot them, then hack off the next head with a sword you won from killing the first guy. Or, also as good, raid a capital city and loot their treasure hoard, then use the enemy's weapons against them in the ultimate ironic twist. Somehow, I doubt we'll see many elves wielding orc choppa's in action. Melting them down and using the metal to make a weapon that's fit for an elf, that I could envisage. Mind you, anything is better than the old WoW method of looting double-headed battleaxes from a dead big wolf.
But not before 300 real warriors killed thousands and thousands of pretend-soldiers who normally spend the day baking cakes and darning socks. With weapons made by crafters which were, also in the movie.
My perspective as a tabletop fan who's been into Warhammer for the past 10+ years.
All character classes are more than just "soldiers." They are the elites and champions of their given race. Just looking at Empire for example:
Witch-hunter: elite solo or head of a Mordheim warband
Warpriest: hero, usually leads an entire regiment
Bright Wizard: hero, can lead a regiment or even command the entire army
Knight of the blazing sun: member of elite cavalry unit; top knights can be army commanders
Now, I recognize purists will say that some of the classes are based on elite units instead of commanding officers. But the fact still remains that as an elite, your character is far too valuable to be wasted repairing shirts or moving supply carts behind the lines. I don't have a problem with a wizard being able to enchant a cool destructive item or a warrior forging a special blade. Certainly any "shooty" profession would likely know how to make their own ammo. But I'm really hoping there won't be part-time farmers or tailors and minstrels. No offense to those games that have these professions - I'm just saying that I don't think they belong in WAR.
As to the snide comments from AOC lovers - I know it's too early to conjecture, but I've heard some of the best loot will indeed come from sacking the enemy's city. Can anyone confirm this?
All you little geeks that think you are going to a real war... WAKE UP! Its a game! It will have game mechanics like crafting that adds to the gaming experience... ok?
Originally posted by TeflonEddie But not before 300 real warriors killed thousands and thousands of pretend-soldiers who normally spend the day baking cakes and darning socks. With weapons made by crafters which were, also in the movie.
I agree! That is the point I have been making the whole time!
The soldiers, who are trained to fight, used the weapons and supplies made by craftsmen, who are trained to craft.
And thus the cycle of warfare and production is complete - warriors war, craftsmen craft, and they rely on each other in these pursuits.
Except in WAR, we are all warriors (elite ones, at that, usually, not just grunts, as another poster mentioned), not common folk - those are the NPCs.
The type of crafting I wanted to see in this game, or at least a system that resembled crafting, was one where NPCs did all the actual crafting, but you, the player, brought them the reagents needed from plundered loot (war time, they are low on supplies, etc.). So, instead of gathering them from resource nodes, you would collect them off of corpses and such, or in some other way that does not have us clicking on a chunk of ore and then watching our character swing a pick for a few seconds.
I would find this much more satisfying as it would flow into the regular game, not be split into a separate game of gathering/crafting with its own separate grind - that is probably the main reason I dislike crafting. Not only do I find it to be boring and quite unsatisfying, since most of what you make while levelling it is worthless, but it ends up just being a separate, parallel grind to the rest of the game, where you make things just for the sake of skilling up. Crafting, in my view, should always be about making stuff with a purpose. A system where you are not bound to crafting yourself, but instead can have NPCs craft for you would skip this grind.
I agree! That is the point I have been making the whole time! The soldiers, who are trained to fight, used the weapons and supplies made by craftsmen, who are trained to craft. And thus the cycle of warfare and production is complete - warriors war, craftsmen craft, and they rely on each other in these pursuits. Except in WAR, we are all warriors (elite ones, at that, usually, not just grunts, as another poster mentioned), not common folk - those are the NPCs. The type of crafting I wanted to see in this game, or at least a system that resembled crafting, was one where NPCs did all the actual crafting, but you, the player, brought them the reagents needed from plundered loot (war time, they are low on supplies, etc.). So, instead of gathering them from resource nodes, you would collect them off of corpses and such, or in some other way that does not have us clicking on a chunk of ore and then watching our character swing a pick for a few seconds. I would find this much more satisfying as it would flow into the regular game, not be split into a separate game of gathering/crafting with its own separate grind - that is probably the main reason I dislike crafting. Not only do I find it to be boring and quite unsatisfying, since most of what you make while levelling it is worthless, but it ends up just being a separate, parallel grind to the rest of the game, where you make things just for the sake of skilling up. Crafting, in my view, should always be about making stuff with a purpose. A system where you are not bound to crafting yourself, but instead can have NPCs craft for you would skip this grind.
I actually agree with much of what you say here; I prefer a system whereby there are dedicated crafters who need resources gathered while adventuring to make the goods which are in turn needed by the adventurers. The best crafting system I've seen was in SWG where crafters had to sacrifice quite a lot in order to be master craftsmen.
It seems the only element that you and I disagree on is who should perform the actual crafting. You favour NPCs, I favour dedicated PC's who enjoy crafting/economy and will increase the game's subscription numbers meaning more revnue for the game to spend on new content/hardware.
"Engineer Specialty The only thing more deadly than a simple bomb is a complicated one, or at least that's the way an Engineer sees things. Using nothing more than the odds and ends they have at hand, Engineers can create a broad variety of useful objects with various purposes and functions. Some of them are even safe enough to give to others. From grenades of various types to mechanical weapon upgrades, the engineer and his allies can use these devices to significantly enhance or supplement their own combat power."
A crafter that fights on the front lines as well as giving supplies to others.
I prefer a system whereby there are dedicated crafters who need resources gathered while adventuring to make the goods which are in turn needed by the adventurers.
This is exactly the sort of system that I would like to see in a more open-ended, simulation-type game (AKA a game more like EverQuest II, with little driving purpose, as opposed to WAR, which is driven by realm warfare). I never played SWG, though I have heard from many people that, as you mentioned, it had a system somewhat like this. I just never liked science-fiction settings as much as high fantasy, so I kept my distance.
I think a forthcoming game could use a dedicated crafting system to great effect, and it would be a strong reason to include a truly deep and gratifying crafting experience; one where the craftsman's skill affected quality, one where they could influence the economy and change the market, one where people sought out their goods specifically, and one where their dedication was rewarded with discovering how to create unique and powerful items, or ways to modify and enhance existing ones. No game I have ever played has had anything like that - most are just like it is in WoW: you gather some resources, you buy/quest a recipe, click "Create", and that is that. That, to me, is not really crafting, it is just a roundabout way of getting loot that includes lots of wasted money and time.
A problem in most games is that crafting competes directly with raiding/questing, but it does not have to be so. You could devise a system where crafted goods are for completely different purposes and thus do not need to worry about taking a back seat to raid loot. Or, simply make it so raid loot is required to make some of the crafted items, which is done in some games already, I suppose. Also, saturation of the market after the frontrunners cash in on new crafted goods is always a concern, too.
I would love to play a game where there was deep crafting, though, even if I did not partake in it, simply because my fellow guild members could, and it could be a synergistic relationship that would be rather fun. Who knows - if crafting was actually interesting and complex enough, I might actually like it and make a craftsman in addition to an adventuring character.
But, as it stands, I do not relish the shallow grind of what MMORPGs currently call crafting, and I hardly think EA Mythic will blow us away. Then again, perhaps their silence means they are concealing some innovation, but even if that is true, I doubt it will be something amazingly complex; at best, it will be something interesting and fun, which is good enough for me.
P.S. I think Age of Conan would have been the perfect game to have an amazing crafting system, due to guild cities and guild warfare and such (fight over resources, outfit your city's soldiers, etc.). Unfortunately, it is looking to be quite shallow, though I never had much interest in the game anyway, so it is all moot to me.
Comments
"I was foolish to expect Sparta's commitment to match our own."
"You there, what is your Profession?"
"I'm a potter."
"And you?"
"Weaver."
"You. Arcadian(sp?) what is your profession?"
"Blacksmith sir."
"SPARTANS! WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?!"
"HA-OOH!! HA-OOH!!"
"See old friend. I did bring more soldiers."
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
That's a bit of a narrow viewpoint; I hope the developers have a broader one.
A decent crafting system adds a LOT of depth to a game and helps alleviate the "go kill boss X a dozen times 'til he eventually drops something you can use" element of modern MMO's.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
That's a bit of a narrow viewpoint; I hope the developers have a broader one.
A decent crafting system adds a LOT of depth to a game and helps alleviate the "go kill boss X a dozen times 'til he eventually drops something you can use" element of modern MMO's.
It is not about being narrow or broad, it is about being correct. You fail to grasp this simple concept - soldiers are soldiers, craftsmen are craftsmen. There is a war going on, and during a war a soldier does not go out and farm wheat and bake bread, he fights.
You can call that narrow, but it is fact. However, like I said, there will be some form of crafting to attempt to appease people who find it fun (how on earth collecting reagents and clicking an icon to put them together is fun is beyond me - I call it tedious and pointless), but do not expect it to be amazing. The fact that EA Mythic has barely even mentioned it all, ever, is a sign that it is not fundamental to the game. The selling points are RvR, public quests, and the Warhammer lore, and that is what will come through in the finished product.
As Paul Barnett said in a podcast, "Don't play our game if you want to make pants."
I think that is correct, anyway, and shows the general attitude toward crafting, and that is that their game is not at all about it.
Warhammer is not about the happy home maker. It is not about crafting. It is about war. It is bloody,ugly and endless. No player run economy, no decorating your home with flowers. no crafting pretty pink shirts. Just endless battles and death. That is Warhammer.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
Ah..I couldn't pass this one up..LOL...Warriors do craft and in history those warriors that couldn't craft or didn't have a family member that could craft were not very successful.Native American warriors had to create their own arrows and bows, didn't they?
Warriors like anyone else have to survive.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
Ah..I couldn't pass this one up..LOL...Warriors do craft and in history those warriors that couldn't craft or didn't have a family member that could craft were not very successful.Native American warriors had to create their own arrows and bows, didn't they?
Warriors like anyone else have to survive.
WAR is not a historical simulation. Its main design was to throw players into PVP situations early and often and keep them engaged in it throughout their gaming experience.
Crafting, Housing are all secondary afterthoughts that I agree, some players favor over combat. This is not the game for them. WAR is not trying to be all things to all players. Time will tell if this was a good decision or not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I "fail to grasp" nothing. I'm happy to have a discussion, but you could set aside the ostentatiousness. By your narrow (and yes, it IS narrow) definition, the game should consist of nothing more than a battlefield with a couple of armies and you as a grunt stood in one of them 'til you get the order to charge.You may consider the crafting aspect of games tedious and pointless, but yours is not the only opinion on the matter. Others, myself included, enjoy the achievement of chopping off the head of an enemy with a nice powerful weapon that we crafted ourselves.
I get that the game isn't designed to be a crafting game with added PvP .. but given the choice I'll take item-progression from crafting over item-progression from farming raid/boss mobs any day.
At the end of the day, item upgrades have to come from somewhere.
Warriors do not craft, craftsmen do. You are confusing the conquest for resources with the crafting of said resources, which are two very different things.
In Warhammer we are the warriors, not the craftsmen. It makes little sense for a soldier to go mine some ore and then forge a sword - he is a soldier and not qualified to do that.
That being said, I am sure there will be crafting, but I am also quite sure it will not be very deep.
Ah..I couldn't pass this one up..LOL...Warriors do craft and in history those warriors that couldn't craft or didn't have a family member that could craft were not very successful.Native American warriors had to create their own arrows and bows, didn't they?
Warriors like anyone else have to survive.
This game has nothing to do with any sort of real history. It is Warhammer. It is pure fantasy. So in this lore no warriors do not craft. They fight, kill and die. I am really kind of shocked that anyone would want crafting or housing. This isnt going to be WoW 2.0 it is Warhammer. It is all about the battle.
You seem to have missed my point so I'll do it again... but I'll spell it out.. and color code it.
WAR - Spartans
Other MMOs - Arcadians:
"I was foolish to expect Sparta's commitment to match our own."
"You there, what is your Profession?"
"I'm a potter."
"And you?"
"Weaver."
"You. Arcadian. What is your profession?"
"Blacksmith sir."
"SPARTANS! WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?!"
"HA-OOH!! HA-OOH!!"
"See old friend. I did bring more soldiers."
Remind me, didn't those spartans all die in the end?
You may consider the crafting aspect of games tedious and pointless, but yours is not the only opinion on the matter. Others, myself included, enjoy the achievement of chopping off the head of an enemy with a nice powerful weapon that we crafted ourselves.
I get that the game isn't designed to be a crafting game with added PvP .. but given the choice I'll take item-progression from crafting over item-progression from farming raid/boss mobs any day.
At the end of the day, item upgrades have to come from somewhere.
But you do fail to grasp it as you fail to grasp the direction of the developers - or you grasp it and choose to ignore it, take your pick. You are asking for a deep crafting system in a game that the developers have said from the beginning is about eternal war. They have not ever stated they want to show the home life of the characters, which is, at best, what crafting is. In everything they tell us the message is, "War, war, war."
Also, you are being rather glib when you call that my definition of the game, and then resort to some rather spurious conclusions based on it. War in this game is about more than just RvR - it is about waging war on all fronts, which includes the PvE aspect that ties into RvR.
Crafting ties into nothing - that is my point. It makes perfect sense in a game that is more of a simulation with no real theme or direction, but that is not what WAR is. It is not an open-ended game where you are plunked down and told, "Go do what you want." You are plunked down and told, "Go kill the enemy."
Anyway, I understand people enjoy crafting, but opinions on how enjoyable it is do not matter here - not mine, not yours, not anyone's. All that matters is the type of game WAR is. Plenty of other games have crafting, so if it is a big enough deal to some players, they can play those ones. Games, unfortunately, will never cater to everyone, nor will those they cater to even be perfectly satisfied.
Oh, as for satisfying item progression, I think WAR has the best one of all - slay a player character, loot them, then hack off the next head with a sword you won from killing the first guy. Or, also as good, raid a capital city and loot their treasure hoard, then use the enemy's weapons against them in the ultimate ironic twist.
Remind me, didn't those spartans all die in the end?
But not before 300 real warriors killed thousands and thousands of pretend-soldiers who normally spend the day baking cakes and darning socks.
Remind me, didn't those spartans all die in the end?
It's Warhammer.
Everyone fights.
Everyone dies.
Why waste my time crafting and decorating a house?
Remind me, didn't those spartans all die in the end?
But not before 300 real warriors killed thousands and thousands of pretend-soldiers who normally spend the day baking cakes and darning socks.
F#$* yeah dude. Exactly.
No time spent on crafting/housing means more time spent fighting. Which means more dev focus on fighting. Which means better fighting. Which means more time fighting.
My perspective as a tabletop fan who's been into Warhammer for the past 10+ years.
All character classes are more than just "soldiers." They are the elites and champions of their given race. Just looking at Empire for example:
Witch-hunter: elite solo or head of a Mordheim warband
Warpriest: hero, usually leads an entire regiment
Bright Wizard: hero, can lead a regiment or even command the entire army
Knight of the blazing sun: member of elite cavalry unit; top knights can be army commanders
Now, I recognize purists will say that some of the classes are based on elite units instead of commanding officers. But the fact still remains that as an elite, your character is far too valuable to be wasted repairing shirts or moving supply carts behind the lines. I don't have a problem with a wizard being able to enchant a cool destructive item or a warrior forging a special blade. Certainly any "shooty" profession would likely know how to make their own ammo. But I'm really hoping there won't be part-time farmers or tailors and minstrels. No offense to those games that have these professions - I'm just saying that I don't think they belong in WAR.
As to the snide comments from AOC lovers - I know it's too early to conjecture, but I've heard some of the best loot will indeed come from sacking the enemy's city. Can anyone confirm this?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
All you little geeks that think you are going to a real war... WAKE UP! Its a game! It will have game mechanics like crafting that adds to the gaming experience... ok?
You can take "nothing" too far though. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with more content over less content, as long as it fits the IP.
Lets get the game out first then worry about the fluffy stuff.
There will be no Player Housing in Warhammer, there may be guild Housing, but not at release. There is crafting in this game as well.
Hope that clears things up
omg
HOGG4LIFE
I agree! That is the point I have been making the whole time!
The soldiers, who are trained to fight, used the weapons and supplies made by craftsmen, who are trained to craft.
And thus the cycle of warfare and production is complete - warriors war, craftsmen craft, and they rely on each other in these pursuits.
Except in WAR, we are all warriors (elite ones, at that, usually, not just grunts, as another poster mentioned), not common folk - those are the NPCs.
The type of crafting I wanted to see in this game, or at least a system that resembled crafting, was one where NPCs did all the actual crafting, but you, the player, brought them the reagents needed from plundered loot (war time, they are low on supplies, etc.). So, instead of gathering them from resource nodes, you would collect them off of corpses and such, or in some other way that does not have us clicking on a chunk of ore and then watching our character swing a pick for a few seconds.
I would find this much more satisfying as it would flow into the regular game, not be split into a separate game of gathering/crafting with its own separate grind - that is probably the main reason I dislike crafting. Not only do I find it to be boring and quite unsatisfying, since most of what you make while levelling it is worthless, but it ends up just being a separate, parallel grind to the rest of the game, where you make things just for the sake of skilling up. Crafting, in my view, should always be about making stuff with a purpose. A system where you are not bound to crafting yourself, but instead can have NPCs craft for you would skip this grind.
It seems the only element that you and I disagree on is who should perform the actual crafting. You favour NPCs, I favour dedicated PC's who enjoy crafting/economy and will increase the game's subscription numbers meaning more revnue for the game to spend on new content/hardware.
"Engineer Specialty
The only thing more deadly than a simple bomb is a complicated one, or at least that's the way an Engineer sees things. Using nothing more than the odds and ends they have at hand, Engineers can create a broad variety of useful objects with various purposes and functions. Some of them are even safe enough to give to others. From grenades of various types to mechanical weapon upgrades, the engineer and his allies can use these devices to significantly enhance or supplement their own combat power."
A crafter that fights on the front lines as well as giving supplies to others.
This is exactly the sort of system that I would like to see in a more open-ended, simulation-type game (AKA a game more like EverQuest II, with little driving purpose, as opposed to WAR, which is driven by realm warfare). I never played SWG, though I have heard from many people that, as you mentioned, it had a system somewhat like this. I just never liked science-fiction settings as much as high fantasy, so I kept my distance.
I think a forthcoming game could use a dedicated crafting system to great effect, and it would be a strong reason to include a truly deep and gratifying crafting experience; one where the craftsman's skill affected quality, one where they could influence the economy and change the market, one where people sought out their goods specifically, and one where their dedication was rewarded with discovering how to create unique and powerful items, or ways to modify and enhance existing ones. No game I have ever played has had anything like that - most are just like it is in WoW: you gather some resources, you buy/quest a recipe, click "Create", and that is that. That, to me, is not really crafting, it is just a roundabout way of getting loot that includes lots of wasted money and time.
A problem in most games is that crafting competes directly with raiding/questing, but it does not have to be so. You could devise a system where crafted goods are for completely different purposes and thus do not need to worry about taking a back seat to raid loot. Or, simply make it so raid loot is required to make some of the crafted items, which is done in some games already, I suppose. Also, saturation of the market after the frontrunners cash in on new crafted goods is always a concern, too.
I would love to play a game where there was deep crafting, though, even if I did not partake in it, simply because my fellow guild members could, and it could be a synergistic relationship that would be rather fun. Who knows - if crafting was actually interesting and complex enough, I might actually like it and make a craftsman in addition to an adventuring character.
But, as it stands, I do not relish the shallow grind of what MMORPGs currently call crafting, and I hardly think EA Mythic will blow us away. Then again, perhaps their silence means they are concealing some innovation, but even if that is true, I doubt it will be something amazingly complex; at best, it will be something interesting and fun, which is good enough for me.
P.S. I think Age of Conan would have been the perfect game to have an amazing crafting system, due to guild cities and guild warfare and such (fight over resources, outfit your city's soldiers, etc.). Unfortunately, it is looking to be quite shallow, though I never had much interest in the game anyway, so it is all moot to me.