Originally posted by Raven99 Originally posted by Ghost12 Originally posted by evil13 Perhaps if the poesters who start those "hardcore pvp/sand box mmo" topics weren't able to so skillfuly express their superiority to other players and how hardcore pvp/open box mmo would be way, way superior to mmos out right now. Conviniently ignoring the obvious fact that a hardcore pvp game will never be more than a nishe and that majority of players don't want that, they want the kind of games that are beign made (thus those games are being made)
So, if people who start those threads could realize that such a hardoce pvp game is not superior to any other game, it's just different, and that people who don't want such a game are not skilless carabears who are 12 years old and want to pretend to be an elf hero.. but just people who enjoy different things in the game. And if they finally realize that a hardcore pvp game is not wanted by most people but is wanted by some, perhaps large enaugh number of people to make it financialy sound for a company to make such a game. Maybe then people wouldn't jump on a thread like that and flame op/whoever as much as they do. Untill then however, people will flame those threads and point out posters stupidity.
PS: Tell me you wouldn't flame this: "All the current mmos suck! They are all wow clones. I want a sandbox mmo so that people who don't suck can have somethign to play! I want hardcore pvp with real consiquences to dieing (you get kicked in the balls irl if you die, yes yes, GM will come to your house and do it, hey at least that's good customer service) I want a game that has twitch based combat so I can show off my skills, namely good internet connection and high end pc which allows me to pwn all the lagging noobs. Oh yes, did I say that this mmo would own and every other mmo sucks and so do the people who play those mmo? cool"
A post like that is pretty hard not to flame, or at least be tempted to make fun of the poster and poke holes in his post.
Putting your exaggerated flame bits aside, no I wouldnt flame someone who posted that. People who post threads saying those things are trying to start a thread that invokes some sort of debate and discussion, NOT flaming that so many people enter the threads instigate. People may say its superior, but its their opinion, and they are entitled to their opinion. Where have you been? that's not exaggerated. I've seen plenty of idiot posts like that on this site. Very seldom have I seen a Post about PvP that looked like it was written by someone other than an 8 year old. I hate PvP but the original poster of this thread at least had enough decency to respect others right to play there way. I bash PvP players all the time. Until they start respecting us non Hardcore types, then why the hell should we respect them at all?
Raven
And your holier than thou response right there is no different really than a typical "hardcore/pvp'er" response.
Between them and responses like yours..that is why people constantly bicker at each other.
Neither side is right, but both refuse to see themselves as wrong.
Fact: Pure PvE games are missing the thrill of PvP.
Fact: Pure/hardcore PvP games have, historically, failed. (For X reason.)
Fact: Most PvE games provide at least one or two PvP servers, almost all PvE games allow either arena fighting or dueling, but probably none will ever cater to "hardcore" PvP players because of the base mechanics of the game.
I personally quit UO not because of the PvP system, but rather because it became a rampant breeding ground for kewldoods with ten asterisks in their name, asians with no English skills at all, and overall frustration with the immaturity of the player base. (See The Dread Lord Moervan for a good idea.) Shadowbane, also pure PvP and with thievery!... essentially dead, just hasn't decomposed yet. Most players cannot handle such a free system without degenerating into teabaggers who spend hours just modifying their macros to get the most number of "PWN"s in before the next Corp Por.
That's why there are so few PvP games out there... they don't make nearly as much money as PvE.
If people name call someone or any group of people, they will get negative responce. Example word carebear, use PvE player instead.
if people attack other peoples, they will get negative response. Example writen "I'm more skilled than others" or "You don't know anything, check You facts"
if people tell other people how much better they or they choises or they opinions are, they will get negative response. Respect other people choises too.
If You self likes something, don't expect all people like it as You do. There is allways some people who hates what You like. Accept that others have different opinions and they don't allways support what You like.
Don't come to forum with only reason to try prove that someone else if wrong and You are right. There is allways people who disagree with You, what cause negative response.
People them self gets often negative response, becasuse they self cause it by how they did write something, so look in the mirrow first, what did You self write. Don't blame others for bad response, because often You self where the cause for it. Have enough self respect to admit that You maybe caused it. It's not that You where wrong or someone right, it was maybe just bad choise of words.
A lot of problems are just misunderstanding, because it's not allways easy to understand what other peoples mean by they words. Also it's not easy to write stuff so that it doesn't give possibilities to misunderstand what's sayed. So try to be polite allways even when You are little angry by what's writen.
In the end accept that there is as many opinions about same stuff, as there is people in world. Every people looks same situation little different ways and because it, they can have different opinions about it.
Originally posted by The_Archon This whole argument is all really very simple.
Shadowbane, also pure PvP and with thievery!... essentially dead, just hasn't decomposed yet. Most players cannot handle such a free system without degenerating into teabaggers who spend hours just modifying their macros to get the most number of "PWN"s in before the next Corp Por.
That's why there are so few PvP games out there... they don't make nearly as much money as PvE.
Actually, shadowbane is far from dead. Rather than be a victim of the "open" pvp system, it was a victim of a poor rendering engine. The lackluster graphics, constant lag and inability to support a 100 or more characters on screen at the same time is what killed shadowbane, not to mention the infamous sb.exe error. Shadowbane is currently F2P, and has a couple very active servers. I am currently playing shadowbane, and the pvp centric game is a blast, the only limitations is the technology(or lack thereof) backing the game.
If they could redo shadowbane with a more updated engine, and a dev team backed with more money, shadowbane would do very well in todays market.
Originally posted by Anofalye I can't care less about PvP and how it is done...as long as it is not done at the expanse of PvE.
WAR is wrong, so it bruise me, and so I talk.
DAoC is wrong, so it buise me and so I talk.
I don't mind that there are PvP servers, PvP focus and whatever. But if PvP is enforced on me, this is NOT the game I want, so I will NOT play it. Simple. I want PvE cooperation. Then, if you add a PvP twist that have 0 impact on PvE, maybe I will try and like it...
I know, I am far from perfect, I have many flaws, but when I want to PvE, I don't want to PvP. See, PvE progression is a game on it own, it deserve a fully blown development that is free from other gameplays. I don't care about other gameplays, as long as they don't ruin MY gameplay (PvE-grouping). If they ruins MY gameplay, then it is always going to be problematic.
No offense...but did you ever even PLAY DAOC? Just curious, cause the pvp frontier and battlegrounds are completely separate from the pve areas. Essentially you had a pve game with 3 different spins on it(3 different realms). You were never forced to engage in pvp, you could pve to your hearts content without ever stepping foot in pvp land. Nothing in the game required you to ever pvp. I know lots of people who never participated in the realm wars. You could farm, raid, craft, quest and all of that without fear of getting ganked..then when you wanted pvp you port to the frontiers and have at it. I don't see how pvp impacted pve in that way, other than people leaving pve raids to go defend keeps in pvp or what not. You should really pick a better example. Hell, you have a better chance of getting ganked while leveling in WoW than you do in DAOC. D.
Actually, shadowbane is far from dead. Rather than be a victim of the "open" pvp system, it was a victim of a poor rendering engine. The lackluster graphics, constant lag and inability to support a 100 or more characters on screen at the same time is what killed shadowbane, not to mention the infamous sb.exe error. Shadowbane is currently F2P, and has a couple very active servers. I am currently playing shadowbane, and the pvp centric game is a blast, the only limitations is the technology(or lack thereof) backing the game. If they could redo shadowbane with a more updated engine, and a dev team backed with more money, shadowbane would do very well in todays market. D.
Well that's true, I forgot about the resource issues, although the majority of my time playing I was relatively stable all throughout the newb island and then over in the desert. One guild raid bogged down on us a little bit, but it wasn't terrible.
Ha, I still remember grouping with this one female toon who for some reason was carrying around 500k gold on her, and she accidently hit /lootsplit. That was a quick hide and log right there.
Fact: Pure PvE games are missing the thrill of PvP. Fact: Pure/hardcore PvP games have, historically, failed. (For X reason.) Fact: Most PvE games provide at least one or two PvP servers, almost all PvE games allow either arena fighting or dueling, but probably none will ever cater to "hardcore" PvP players because of the base mechanics of the game.
I personally quit UO not because of the PvP system, but rather because it became a rampant breeding ground for kewldoods with ten asterisks in their name, asians with no English skills at all, and overall frustration with the immaturity of the player base. (See The Dread Lord Moervan for a good idea.) Shadowbane, also pure PvP and with thievery!... essentially dead, just hasn't decomposed yet. Most players cannot handle such a free system without degenerating into teabaggers who spend hours just modifying their macros to get the most number of "PWN"s in before the next Corp Por.
That's why there are so few PvP games out there... they don't make nearly as much money as PvE.
Yeah Shadowbane never really failed its F2P now and it isnt doing all that bad. Like all F2P games it isnt monitered with nearly the same vigilance (if any monitering is going on) than when its P2P so of course youre going to have people macroing like crazy.
Hardcore PvP games and servers have failed but its not really all that fair to say thats a reason why Hardcore PvP games shouldnt be made.
During the times these hardcore PvP games were coming out, the MMO's were still in their experimental stages and did not have nearly as much people as MMO's have now. Even the "normal" servers in a game were not nearly as large as the servers now, so saying that PvP servers failed and should never be tried again is ludicrous. There is a large growing niche of hardcore players and its only going to grow with the influx of new players brought in by WoW. There is a definite section of WoW players that want something more. Saying that people dont like hardcore PvP is like saying people dont like serious competition. It just isnt all that realistic.
WoW has set the current trend for PvE and due to money, companies are going to follow suit. But one of these days a company is going to realize that since the PvE market has so much competition, and none in PvP, that they should invest in PvP. Its simple economics and this will happen eventually.
Fact: Pure PvE games are missing the thrill of PvP. Fact: Pure/hardcore PvP games have, historically, failed. (For X reason.) Fact: Most PvE games provide at least one or two PvP servers, almost all PvE games allow either arena fighting or dueling, but probably none will ever cater to "hardcore" PvP players because of the base mechanics of the game.
I personally quit UO not because of the PvP system, but rather because it became a rampant breeding ground for kewldoods with ten asterisks in their name, asians with no English skills at all, and overall frustration with the immaturity of the player base. (See The Dread Lord Moervan for a good idea.) Shadowbane, also pure PvP and with thievery!... essentially dead, just hasn't decomposed yet. Most players cannot handle such a free system without degenerating into teabaggers who spend hours just modifying their macros to get the most number of "PWN"s in before the next Corp Por.
That's why there are so few PvP games out there... they don't make nearly as much money as PvE.
The main issue is that if you go all PVP it becomes difficult to regulate them and stretch out their character progression.
EVE I think they found a good happy medium via their time based progression. They have a guaranteed way to extend chaarcter progression indefintely. they say it would take like 40+ yrs for a guy to unlock everything
EVE also has a lot of subscriptions I believe its more then the PVE based games like City of Heroes.
0.Topic: Why to people troll risk PVP topics so bad.
1. one thing I can never figure out. usually when you see a topic about LOTRO or some other PVE based MMO people can have a meaningful discussion.
2. But when someone starts a topic asking for Sandbox / hardcore PVPpeople have a fit. or you guys afraid to see us get our own MMO this bad? I mean, you got a ton of PVE based MMOs why be so afraid of something new coming out?
3. Are you afraid a Game Developer will see the one hardcore PVP post and your world as you know it will end?
4. I admit we are seeing a gradual move towards PVP- even Age of Conan says they want a Hardcore FFA PVP Server and Pirates will have hardcore PVP. And there is EVE which is hella fun. But still why the panic lol? I mean, its not like every MMORPG has gone hardcore?
5. fights that really end whereas ppl dont just keep respawning over and over like they're immortal gods or something. just some penalty like item decay / durability hits, etc.
0. What is your definition of troll, anyone that disagrees with you? Typically when I see a topic on PVP especially when the poster uses “hardcore” in the subject I read it to see how the permadeath will be handled. Just like many here, I have been working on my own game so am always interested in how other games or gamers themselves handle Player Vrs Player (PVP). The problem is that most of PVP posters are never actually posting about PVP but how they should be able to kill anyone anywhere and keep everything their victims carry.
And that’s the rub, looting has nothing to do with PVP. PVP is about the battle, but then again PVP is also about Player vrs Player not Gang Vrs Gang, Realm vrs Realm, or Gank squads vrs Victims. The wrong assumption by most if not all the posts you allude to is that simply the existence of fighting makes the game a PVP game, it doesn’t. And no competition in itself also does not make a game PVP (Sorry but crafting in EVE is not PVP).
Let me put it another way, what makes a Game a MMORPG? See just being an online game does not qualify it, nor would it qualify if it had 180k subscribers but the game was played in instances such as Diablo 2. I could go on but the reality is that if you don’t understand this then you would not understand the difference between a real and a drug store cowboy: Ie. Dressing like one does not make you one especially if you have never ridden a horse. Or quite simply, the answer to your topic, True PVPers get annoyed when fake ones try and claim the badge of honor of PVP by posting stuff that has nothing to do with real PVP.
2: This is a perfect example of why people respond negatively to those posts. A hardcore game means more than just having Permadeath, because these games are considered for experts only Hardcore games have true Risk Vrs Reward (RVR). Now RVR does not just mean you should be rewarded by placing all risk to someone else. It means that the reward be equal to the risk. Ie. If a player goes out and risks killing a bear they should not be rewarded a +20 sword of dragon slaying. By the same token when a player kills another player the risk of killing the player should yield an appropriate reward. Not only is this is why full looting is not typically not used as the reward is far beyond the risk but why most PVP games use duel systems, to try and insure that the rewards = the risk.
This goes back to your post, there is no risk to gank squads or griefers so why should they be rewarded? One last thing that is also always ignored by those that want FFA Killing and Full looting, the risk of breaking the laws. Anyone that has played any RPG or MMOG for any length of time knows that while you may kill any enemy killing a friendly (npc/pc) results in going to jail to being outcast and not allowed to buy or sell in the realm, yet these supposed self-proclaimed “hardcore” players will not accept responsibility for their actions.
3. Any developer seeing any one of the “hardcore pvp” post within the last month would ignore it just as they would ignore a post “Why should we have to lvl, we should be given everything the first day and be running endgame content by the end of that day”, so why would anyone care who sees it? You are confusing pointing out why it would be a bad thing or where the posters are applying unrelated concepts to their post with wanting to hide a post.
4. Again you are confusing hardcore players with a hardcore game and advertising. When you go to the store and see a package that is “new and improved” do you actually believe that it is? Now as I have not seen AOC or Pirates I can not say whether they will be hardcore but as far as EVE it is by no stretch of the imagination Hardcore, actually it used to be a lot closer to a hardcore game when it started. Ands that is the point, being close to something is not the same as being something. Being close to hardcore such as stiff death penalties, stiff rule sets, and punishments such as karma or security hits for breaking the law is close to hardcore but is not hardcore.
5. Ok,, the second part of your statement conflicts with the first, while item decay and durability is the standard for items kept the ability to respawn is a staple of most games except Hardcore games. In a Hardcore game one you die that it, you it does not matter what you had on you or at your bank, it is all gone. You are dead so no longer have access to any of it, why would anyone play a MMOG/MMORPG that way, to loose days, months or even years of work? The only way that a hardcore game would work would be if the game added legacy or had no non-standard issue equipment. But if you allow legacy (being able to pass on the stuff too your new avatar or clan) then it is no longer hardcore, just permadeath.
One last thing, the posters you describe often post items like this quote:
Zactor99
Oh wow, you are sooo correct. People HATE competition! People HATE boxing, wrestling, baseball, soccer, the NFL! People hate going outside and competing in volleyball, croquet, golf, billiards, pool, bowling, and so many other sports.
The problem is that the posters seem to ether ignore the facts or try applying an unrelated term. As in the quote above, the poster is trying to prove a point by using the unrelated term “competition” and glossing it over with sarcasm. Do *people hate boxing, yes but they like to watch it. Do they like Wrestling, basketball, soccer or the NFL, not to participate in but to watch, sure. The difference is between the ones who are actually competition and the spectators. Spectators are not in the competition, by using the broad term “people” the poster is trying to bring some sort of legitimacy to his argument. This is the same as when a PKer tries to legitimize what they do by calling using the unrelated term PVP.
The second part of Zactor99’s post deals with activities that most would do, however it is used out of context. Even those he was trying to be sarcastic, yes some people do actually hate going outside. Mixing team games with single player activities (forget the fact that in most of the games listed you are actually competing against yourself) seems to provide a smoke screen but the truth is that shows the one sidedness of these posters.
Electronic Gamers are not spectators, we need to compete against the games environment, NPCs, PC’s and even ourselves. All are valid styles of play, there is not one style that is more important than another to anyone else but ourselves. To the OP, the final answer to your topic is, the resion people respond to those posts is because to poster’s do not understand that playing Hello Kitty OL is just as Valid as playing Gankfest08.
The main issue is that if you go all PVP it becomes difficult to regulate them and stretch out their character progression. EVE I think they found a good happy medium via their time based progression. They have a guaranteed way to extend chaarcter progression indefintely. they say it would take like 40+ yrs for a guy to unlock everything EVE also has a lot of subscriptions I believe its more then the PVE based games like City of Heroes. edit- but I get the gist of what you posted
They are about equal. EVE is around 175K and CoX is around 160K. EVE is doing pretty well considering other current MMOs.
I personally don't like real time regulated time sinks... but that is just a personal opinion. Over all it seems to be a non-issue for most of the subscribers.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
The main issue is that if you go all PVP it becomes difficult to regulate them and stretch out their character progression. EVE I think they found a good happy medium via their time based progression. They have a guaranteed way to extend chaarcter progression indefintely. they say it would take like 40+ yrs for a guy to unlock everything EVE also has a lot of subscriptions I believe its more then the PVE based games like City of Heroes. edit- but I get the gist of what you posted
They are about equal. EVE is around 175K and CoX is around 160K. EVE is doing pretty well considering other current MMOs.
I personally don't like real time regulated time sinks... but that is just a personal opinion. Over all it seems to be a non-issue for most of the subscribers.
One last thing, the posters you describe often post items like this quote:
Zactor99
Oh wow, you are sooo correct. People HATE competition! People HATE boxing, wrestling, baseball, soccer, the NFL! People hate going outside and competing in volleyball, croquet, golf, billiards, pool, bowling, and so many other sports.
The problem is that the posters seem to ether ignore the facts or try applying an unrelated term. As in the quote above, the poster is trying to prove a point by using the unrelated term “competition” and glossing it over with sarcasm. Do *people hate boxing, yes but they like to watch it. Do they like Wrestling, basketball, soccer or the NFL, not to participate in but to watch, sure. The difference is between the ones who are actually competition and the spectators. Spectators are not in the competition, by using the broad term “people” the poster is trying to bring some sort of legitimacy to his argument. This is the same as when a PKer tries to legitimize what they do by calling using the unrelated term PVP.
The second part of Zactor99’s post deals with activities that most would do, however it is used out of context. Even those he was trying to be sarcastic, yes some people do actually hate going outside. Mixing team games with single player activities (forget the fact that in most of the games listed you are actually competing against yourself) seems to provide a smoke screen but the truth is that shows the one sidedness of these posters.
Electronic Gamers are not spectators, we need to compete against the games environment, NPCs, PC’s and even ourselves. All are valid styles of play, there is not one style that is more important than another to anyone else but ourselves. To the OP, the final answer to your topic is, the resion people respond to those posts is because to poster’s do not understand that playing Hello Kitty OL is just as Valid as playing Gankfest08.
My point with what you quoted is simply that PEOPLE DO LOVE COMPETING. You make it sound like they only like to "watch" competition, but not partake in it themselves. That is utter bull. Boys fill school yards playing football, soccer, rugby, and 1000 variations of those type of games. When they get older, they might get fatter or less willing to get hurt, but they they still partake in other competitive games. Like poker or other card games. Or like making bets with their friends/employees about those sports we love to watch. Betting IS competition. Or they go bowl, play golf, play billiards, darts, or 100 other things.
Women compete too, usually in less obvious ways. They compete on who can find the best bargains at the mall, who has the best boyfriend, who is the slimmest, or who can apply their makeup the best. Less subtle, but still they compete all the time none-the-less. By human nature, we are VERY competitive. You can choose to disagree, but I would call you a fool for disagreeing with that statement.
Finally, you try and make PvE games equal to PvP games by stating a truly idiotic and equally sarcastic statement yourself: "playing Hello Kitty OL is just as valid as playing Gankfest08".
...Valid to whom? Valid to the dweeb playing Hello Kitty OL at the age of 22?
Oh yes, I'm sure he thinks Helo Kitty Online is as valid. But to anyone else, he is lame, lol. What you said there is almost like saying that a guy who grows up and plays with paperdolls is just as "valid" a man as a guy who makes it into the NFL as a defensive linebacker. Well, I know which guy I'd rather watch on TV.
Also, you do nothing more then any other PvE player by acting like all PvP hardcore game lovers are gankers and griefers. Your "Gankfest08" surely shows how you side with the softer PvE type of games and your desires to "compete with the games environment" as opposed to actually competing against another human opponent as which the stakes are higher and more difficult.
Your idea of RVR is just plain stupid and doesn't even deserve a response. I will say that if I kill another player 3 levels above me, I DO deserve something in his inventory.. I don't want a game generated piece of crap "butterfly eye" left on his corpse instead of something in his inventory. Risk goes up, Reward should also go up... DUH.
btw the main thing I want is to discourage ppl from respawning over and over and fighting all day long. no clear winners. but if we go with death penalties- it discourages that. all kinda ways you can employ to stop it
this is the deal. in an MMO with any sorta PVP in the world itself- PVPers love to go invade a town or takeover a hotspot (it can be mobs, mines, etc). Well, if we had good death penalties it will discourage ppl from respawning and fighting all day. in guild wars you need a priest to rez you. that way we have a clear winner! sdurer, i guess the flaw is evweryone will kill the support types but if we dont 'con' and it skill based that might make it tough.
so, there are many ways to stop the pointless PVP (to me). I might be way off here and if I am please correct me. but in FPS most of them have better PVP cause i know in BF2142 when i blow up another team's Titan it game over. I'd like to see that expect hit MMOs
they can rip BF2142 directly and require around the titans to make battles meaningful and discourage rampant ganking but I like FFA PVP anywhere in the world (well prefer it)
pretty much anything can work I know!!! Hell WAR can work and be fun I know this. but I want to see more depth like what I just discussed
If people name call someone or any group of people, they will get negative responce. Example word carebear, use PvE player instead. if people attack other peoples, they will get negative response. Example writen "I'm more skilled than others" or "You don't know anything, check You facts" if people tell other people how much better they or they choises or they opinions are, they will get negative response. Respect other people choises too. If You self likes something, don't expect all people like it as You do. There is allways some people who hates what You like. Accept that others have different opinions and they don't allways support what You like. Don't come to forum with only reason to try prove that someone else if wrong and You are right. There is allways people who disagree with You, what cause negative response. People them self gets often negative response, becasuse they self cause it by how they did write something, so look in the mirrow first, what did You self write. Don't blame others for bad response, because often You self where the cause for it. Have enough self respect to admit that You maybe caused it. It's not that You where wrong or someone right, it was maybe just bad choise of words. A lot of problems are just misunderstanding, because it's not allways easy to understand what other peoples mean by they words. Also it's not easy to write stuff so that it doesn't give possibilities to misunderstand what's sayed. So try to be polite allways even when You are little angry by what's writen. In the end accept that there is as many opinions about same stuff, as there is people in world. Every people looks same situation little different ways and because it, they can have different opinions about it.
yeah good post this is the type of comments I was really looking for. I do sometimes tend to be offensive I guess but whats funny I like PVE too. I like reading the storyline and role playing at times.
maybe some people think pvp with a death penalty is just wow with a death penalty, where that's not the case. A death penalty adds politics and diplomacy to a game. If you had a death penalty in WoW the goals would be to make your server 100% alliance or horde. Be it an exp or you drop items penalty (dropping items would need rebalancing however, like 6 drops per boss or maybe even more, also more bag space for backup gear).
Lets say eve online didn't have a death penalty, it would just be a bunch of kids "dueling" in a select few systems, PF, P3N? (forget, lonetrek and NE of that is asshole of eve so I never go there), A2, HED-GP, and whatever new 0.0 systems there are with the jump gate changes, I haven't played in a while. There would be no reason to mine for new ships, and without reason for that there'd be no reason to make player stations etc.
So wanting pvp with a death penalty is like asking for a game with politics and diplomacy.
faction games are stupid too, it's like they're trying to manufacture politics and diplomacy since the game lacks a death penalty. I bet PotBS sucks cuase of factions
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Electronic Gamers are not spectators, we need to compete against the games environment, NPCs, PC’s and even ourselves. All are valid styles of play, there is not one style that is more important than another to anyone else but ourselves. To the OP, the final answer to your topic is, the resion people respond to those posts is because to poster’s do not understand that playing Hello Kitty OL is just as Valid as playing Gankfest08.
My point with what you quoted is simply that PEOPLE DO LOVE COMPETING. You make it sound like they only like to "watch" competition, but not partake in it themselves. That is utter bull. Boys fill school yards playing football, soccer, rugby, and 1000 variations of those type of games. When they get older, they might get fatter or less willing to get hurt, but they they still partake in other competitive games. Like poker or other card games. Or like making bets with their friends/employees about those sports we love to watch. Betting IS competition. Or they go bowl, play golf, play billiards, darts, or 100 other things.
Women compete too, usually in less obvious ways. They compete on who can find the best bargains at the mall, who has the best boyfriend, who is the slimmest, or who can apply their makeup the best. Less subtle, but still they compete all the time none-the-less. By human nature, we are VERY competitive. You can choose to disagree, but I would call you a fool for disagreeing with that statement.
This is eactly what a lot of the people who posted was pointing at when telling the OP about the arrogance. Some people do like competing but a majority of people do not like it, yes they have to for jobs, mates or in some places even food. But having to compete and likeing to compete are completly diffrent. Do you know what TV and movies are so popular? because a majority of the world are spectators. And as I pointed out, Gamers are not spectators, we don't watch other people play.
Finally, you try and make PvE games equal to
PvP games by stating a truly idiotic and equally sarcastic statement yourself: "playing Hello Kitty OL is just as valid as playing Gankfest08".
...Valid to whom? Valid to the dweeb playing Hello Kitty OL at the age of 22?
Oh yes, I'm sure he thinks Helo Kitty Online is as valid. But to anyone else, he is lame, lol. What you said there is almost like saying that a guy who grows up and plays with paperdolls is just as "valid" a man as a guy who makes it into the NFL as a defensive linebacker. Well, I know which guy I'd rather watch on TV.
Valid to the person playing what ever game they are playing. See this was another point made ofter by others to the OP, There is no one valid style of play. Since you can not accept that any other style but your own is valid I will not disscuss the point farther, nor do i try and teach pigs to sing.
Also, you do nothing more then any other PvE player by acting like all PvP hardcore game lovers are gankers and griefers. Your "Gankfest08" surely shows how you side with the softer PvE type of games and your desires to "compete with the games environment" as opposed to actually competing against another human opponent as which the stakes are higher and more difficult.
You really have no idea or your comperhension skills are lacking. Ganking has nothing to do with PVP, Hardcore games can but don't have to have PVP. I used the name Gankfest because it would be a polar oppost of Hello Kitty, but maybe I falsely assumed the readers would understand that the point was that the entire spectram was valid to those playing the games.
Your idea of RVR is just plain stupid and doesn't even deserve a response. I will say that if I kill another player 3 levels above me, I DO deserve something in his inventory.. I don't want a game generated piece of crap "butterfly eye" left on his corpse instead of something in his inventory. Risk goes up, Reward should also go up... DUH.
But anyhow, go back to WoW. Or is WoW too tough for you? Maybe you should go back to ummm "Hello Kitty OL", eh?
- Zaxx
Ok, and as risk goes down? You almost say the exact thing I have on RVR except that you do not want to accept true RVR. As you state, as the risk goes up so should the reward, but yet you want the same reward for less or no risk? Yes if you kill a player 3 lvls above you should get a better loot than if you killed a player 3 lvls lower, thats the point of RVR. But are you saying that if you kill someone you should be rewarded everything they have? RVR is about balance, if there was to be full looting then there has to be a top end, say 10 lvls higher than you and you full loot, same lvl and you get the best item he has. 10 lvls lower and you get nothing.
The Risk of fighting a higher lvl will give higher rewards, the lack of risk in fighting a lower lvl will lessen the reward. You posted half the concept yourself, now just apply it evenly and you will understand.
Oh and I love PVP, I play BF2, COD, CS when I want to PVP as these are as close as you can get to actual PVP nowdays.
I don't know why I even get surprised at this anymore, but.....
I can't believe how totally hung up PvPers on this thread seem to be about physical violence. There's this attitude that anything other than warfare is not PvP. What load of horse shit!!
I especially like it when Zax brought up sports to answer the guy that stated how most people want a nice safe environment with rules. It was funny because, catch this, SPORTS HAVE RULES! SPORTS ARE MOSTLY SAFE!!! DOH!! In pre-trammel UO, there were no rules. Outside of town anything went and anything did. Is it any wonder that they changed it? Let's say you went on vacation, in another state, and found that the law only applied within towns and 50 feet of city limits? Bet you'd be high tailing your ass outta thar' pretty quick.
And that's the rub folks. Most of us play these games to unwind. Yeah, I like the rush that I get from a good game of Madden, Soul Calibur, or Battlfield 2, but I don't exactly appreciate hearing some 10 year old screaming obscenities and trash talk in my ear over voice chat. Especially after working the sixth to fourteenth ten hour shift with no days off. Unfortunately, that's the mentality of most PvPers. And that's why I either play with people that I know or just don't use voice chat.
With MMORPGs, there's that added element of multiple goals. In BF2 or C&C 3, the goals are pretty clear, ditto for the victory conditions. In MMORPGs, you set your own goals and victory conditions. If I was playing a truly sandbox and was growing a farm in order to turn a huge profit and expand my business, it could all go to shit by a small group of punks that just run through and burn the whole thing to the ground. Not to a competing farm or business, but to a bunch of punks who get off on ruining someone else's day. Why would anyone pay $15 for that? I'm sure that PvPers would pay, but no one else would stand for it for more than a week or two. Then what? All that's left is a world full of bandits preying on each other for no reason.
Let's also not forget that the theme of war just doesn't jive with a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people compete but that's not the same as what we envision when we think of warfare. It's a pretty big stretch to compare Golf to WWII. I don't see to many people over the age of 30 playing football in the park on Sunday as compared to baseball, basketball, tennis, ect. I'd go so far as to say that more people play pool or bar darts than paintball.
A couple of good examples. I have a friend that just got back from Iraq. I went over to his house to check out his XBox 360 and I saw that he had GRAW. Come to find out that he was planning on selling it since he couldn't bear to even look at the box. It reminded him of what he had been through recently. My wife grew up in the projects in Chicago and won't touch a Grand Theft Auto game because it reminds her too much of the shit she saw while growing up.
All that violent shit you find so integral to the human spirit has a big negative reality to it that most people are just not cool with. Call it carebear if you like. Call it respectful of reality. Call it stupid and shallow. Like it or not, that's the way it is.
Those people starting these "PvP / risk" threads need to grow up, stop trying to antagonize people into playing their way, and broaden their outlook to take in all forms of competition and conflict, i.e. commerce, politics, ect. If you do that, you'll notice that replies will be a whole lot nicer.
To the OP, read this thread and you will understand why all PvP topics descend into farce.
Arrogant Twa@ts and people who love to wind up Arrogant Twa@ts...
PvP maybe the Future of MMORPG.
But FFA PVP certainly the hell is not.
The PvP of the future is the FPS PvP in a MMORPG setting. Low Risk, High Fun.
Sports have little or no risk and the people that run the sports do everything they can to make this happen.
Football(real Football btw, the one thats older than the country that hijacked the name) was a massive glorified street brawl, where you scored by getting the ball through a doorway, any doorway, if it wasn't open you opened it. Now look at it.
Hockey (Field) was once banned by a King of England because it was crippling so many men, it was affecting his and his nobles ability to raise men to fight in their wars.
Look at FPS, what rules the roost?
Team Shooters not the old FFA Deathmatches. CS:S and Battlefield in all its forms.
People want to compete as a UNIT, we're a Tribal people, the sole sodding reason we rule this planet is because the few things that can kill us, can't compete with our numbers, our ability to work towards a common goal.
FFA PvP is dead, let it alone.
Now Team PvP, well I will see you in Warhammer and if you ain't one of the Da Boyz, I will be wearing your head as a frigging trophy.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe I don't know why I even get surprised at this anymore, but..... I can't believe how totally hung up PvPers on this thread seem to be about physical violence. There's this attitude that anything other than warfare is not PvP. What load of horse shit!!
True PvP is almost non existent in today's mmorpg market. You have to go back to UO pre-Trammel, EQ, AC (Darktide), or the PvP servers of DAoC to get it. That's pretty much a fact, as sad as it is, and it's not horse manure.
I especially like it when Zax brought up sports to answer the guy that stated how most people want a nice safe environment with rules. It was funny because, catch this, SPORTS HAVE RULES! SPORTS ARE MOSTLY SAFE!!! DOH!!
No, I brought up the fact that people like COMPETITION, as he said that most people hate competition with other people. And to your sports are mostly safe crap, let's see you go box Wladimir Klitschko (the #1 heavyweight boxer in the world if you aren't up on boxing).. and lets watch him pound you in the face a few times, then have you come back here and tell me how "safe" real sports are. Or maybe you'd prefer to get hit with a hardball at 105 mph, or maybe take a hit from Dallas Cowboys safety Roy Williams.
In pre-trammel UO, there were no rules. Outside of town anything went and anything did. Is it any wonder that they changed it? Let's say you went on vacation, in another state, and found that the law only applied within towns and 50 feet of city limits? Bet you'd be high tailing your ass outta thar' pretty quick.
That's the difference between REAL life and VIDEO games, bro. Or did you not know there is a difference??
And that's the rub folks. Most of us play these games to unwind. Yeah, I like the rush that I get from a good game of Madden, Soul Calibur, or Battlfield 2, but I don't exactly appreciate hearing some 10 year old screaming obscenities and trash talk in my ear over voice chat. Especially after working the sixth to fourteenth ten hour shift with no days off. Unfortunately, that's the mentality of most PvPers. And that's why I either play with people that I know or just don't use voice chat.
Let's rephrase that for this poor guy eh? He hates constantly losing and getting his ass handed to him by "some 10 year old" who then laughs in his face. ...Yeh bro, I understand. I'd hate PvP games too if I could only beat PvE type of mobs. ;-)
With MMORPGs, there's that added element of multiple goals. In BF2 or C&C 3, the goals are pretty clear, ditto for the victory conditions. In MMORPGs, you set your own goals and victory conditions. If I was playing a truly sandbox and was growing a farm in order to turn a huge profit and expand my business, it could all go to shit by a small group of punks that just run through and burn the whole thing to the ground. Not to a competing farm or business, but to a bunch of punks who get off on ruining someone else's day. Why would anyone pay $15 for that? I'm sure that PvPers would pay, but no one else would stand for it for more than a week or two. Then what? All that's left is a world full of bandits preying on each other for no reason.
Sounds cool, you're right. But in that scenario you mention, those punks who burned down your crops would (should) turn perma-grey to you and anyone else helping you grow those crops for profit. And that's where the FUN starts! Now you getta hunt them down and kick their ass and make them pay for what they did! Maybe you could corner them, beat half the life out of them, then tell them to either pay you 120% of what your crops were worth, or DIE and lose all their shit to you! Fun, Fun!
Let's also not forget that the theme of war just doesn't jive with a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people compete but that's not the same as what we envision when we think of warfare. It's a pretty big stretch to compare Golf to WWII. I don't see to many people over the age of 30 playing football in the park on Sunday as compared to baseball, basketball, tennis, ect. I'd go so far as to say that more people play pool or bar darts than paintball.
Thanks for stating the obvious, Jimmy. Just as you said, a freakin' PvP video game is NOT real life. It is not a real war, You aren't losing your REAL crops worth REAL money, so it's a GAME! It's for FUN! Not to get so pissed off about when a 10 year old kicks your ass in BF2 or when 3 10 year olds burn your virtual crops in your imaginary PvP game.
A couple of good examples. I have a friend that just got back from Iraq. I went over to his house to check out his XBox 360 and I saw that he had GRAW. Come to find out that he was planning on selling it since he couldn't bear to even look at the box. It reminded him of what he had been through recently. My wife grew up in the projects in Chicago and won't touch a Grand Theft Auto game because it reminds her too much of the shit she saw while growing up.
Understood. Some video games may have elements in them that remind some people of harsh real life events. So they shouldn't play such a game. But what the hell does that have to do with the topic at hand or how PvP games suck?
All that violent shit you find so integral to the human spirit has a big negative reality to it that most people are just not cool with. Call it carebear if you like. Call it respectful of reality. Call it stupid and shallow. Like it or not, that's the way it is. Those people starting these "PvP / risk" threads need to grow up, stop trying to antagonize people into playing their way, and broaden their outlook to take in all forms of competition and conflict, i.e. commerce, politics, ect. If you do that, you'll notice that replies will be a whole lot nicer.
I'll be more then happy to be nicer when you stop calling PvP games with even the slightest element of something called a death penalty a "griefer" or "ganker" game. Some of us like mroe challenge in our mmos without going out and playing a straight out kill or be killed only game like BF2 or Quake. We love the elements of mmos and crafting and mining and stuff, but we also want more of a challenge then mindlessly killing 700,000 mobs one level below you all day long without ever even coming close to dying. Furthermore, we have more then reason to bitch nowdays. Why? because there hasn't been any freakin' mmo games that suit our playstyle in like over 5 damn years now! It's all this BS WoW softy nobody gets hurt crap. So as more and more WoW clones come out and less and less pre-trammel UO games are released, you can bet your ass that more and more people will be bitching just as I have been for a while myself. That's just the way it is, as you like to say so often, Jimmy. We don't want guys like you playing our style of game. You just whine and cry and spam every time you die anyhow, even if you are 10 levels above us and you attack us from behind. We just want a decent game for our playstyle rather then the 700 WoW clones we have had the past 5 or 6 years.
To the OP, read this thread and you will understand why all PvP topics descend into farce. Arrogant Twa@ts and people who love to wind up Arrogant Twa@ts... PvP maybe the Future of MMORPG. But FFA PVP certainly the hell is not. The PvP of the future is the FPS PvP in a MMORPG setting. Low Risk, High Fun. Sports have little or no risk and the people that run the sports do everything they can to make this happen. Football(real Football btw, the one thats older than the country that hijacked the name) was a massive glorified street brawl, where you scored by getting the ball through a doorway, any doorway, if it wasn't open you opened it. Now look at it. Hockey (Field) was once banned by a King of England because it was crippling so many men, it was affecting his and his nobles ability to raise men to fight in their wars. Look at FPS, what rules the roost? Team Shooters not the old FFA Deathmatches. CS:S and Battlefield in all its forms. People want to compete as a UNIT, we're a Tribal people, the sole sodding reason we rule this planet is because the few things that can kill us, can't compete with our numbers, our ability to work towards a common goal. FFA PvP is dead, let it alone. Now Team PvP, well I will see you in Warhammer and if you ain't one of the Da Boyz, I will be wearing your head as a frigging trophy.
Don't forget FPS PVP allows me to pick my enemies. In BF2142 my clan ran their own server. Everyone else that joined was on the other side. The equivalent to that is FFA PVP where I choose my teammates and enemies (edit- or Faction versus Faction or Guild vs Guild).
never forget, in rainbow 6: vegas I can always switch teams. sometimes I play against my friends and other times we're on the same side
Realm vs Realm picks my enemies and friends. I can have a real life buddy but he's my enemy cause he own the other side? um, thats kinda messed up. Imagine- what if the game is 'one server'. so chances are you will meet a gamer in real life. you become fast friends. but wait- I gotta fight my friend cause he picked the wrong race???? Thats screwed up!!!
RvR has taken the fun outta role play. much more realistic and meaningful to fight my real enemies.
So at least go Faction vs Faction (you can change sides at anytime) or FFA PVP. but not RvR thats umm, well you know its not preferred and is shit compared to a true FPS
btw the main thing I want is to discourage ppl from respawning over and over and fighting all day long. no clear winners. but if we go with death penalties- it discourages that. all kinda ways you can employ to stop it
this is the deal. in an MMO with any sorta PVP in the world itself- PVPers love to go invade a town or takeover a hotspot (it can be mobs, mines, etc). Well, if we had good death penalties it will discourage ppl from respawning and fighting all day. in guild wars you need a priest to rez you. that way we have a clear winner! sdurer, i guess the flaw is evweryone will kill the support types but if we dont 'con' and it skill based that might make it tough. so, there are many ways to stop the pointless PVP (to me). I might be way off here and if I am please correct me. but in FPS most of them have better PVP cause i know in BF2142 when i blow up another team's Titan it game over. I'd like to see that expect hit MMOs they can rip BF2142 directly and require around the titans to make battles meaningful and discourage rampant ganking but I like FFA PVP anywhere in the world (well prefer it)
pretty much anything can work I know!!! Hell WAR can work and be fun I know this. but I want to see more depth like what I just discussed
I am not sure heavy death penalties will end continuous conflict in an MMO unless you go with permadeath or a death sickness that lasts longer then 1/2 hour. Even then people will use alts to continue the fight for their side. I think the best solution is what shadowbane does, Conflict windows. Now this does take away some from a sandbox type of environment, but allows both meaningful conflict and a sense of urgency when fighting.
For instance you have a rival clan that has been a thorn in your side for a month... You decide to go after one of their cities... You drop a bane (or what ever you want to call it) which makes it know you will be attacking them. Now this is just a declaration of intent... the other guild being on the defensive gets to pick the time the event starts and it runs until either the offense of defensive object is take/destroyed. Even with a fast respawn on players you still have an ending to the conflict as long as one side can dominate the other for a period of time.
You could even go a step further and have a static window for attacks based on timezones. For instance there is a 2 hour window at 8pm EST where all assets are vulnerable. Again you have a clear time frame where conflict can happen and when the window closes to the victor go the spoils.
On a side note there was an interesting concept by an MMO that failed to release (think it was dragon something) but essentially what you carried with you was your XP... For instance... You are out hunting mobs and players... in your own territories you gain XP as normal but in lands under other clans control you gain 2x the xp. Here is the kicker... you collect XP but it is not set to you unless you go back your town and "bank" it. If you die within your own territory you lose all that XP that is not banked. if you get killed by a player outside your territory they get your XP. This gives a nice risk and reward that has meaning to all the players. If you add pack looting I think that is the closest market acceptable FFA meaningful PvP that is viable right now... that is being optimistic.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
btw the main thing I want is to discourage ppl from respawning over and over and fighting all day long. no clear winners. but if we go with death penalties- it discourages that. all kinda ways you can employ to stop it
this is the deal. in an MMO with any sorta PVP in the world itself- PVPers love to go invade a town or takeover a hotspot (it can be mobs, mines, etc). Well, if we had good death penalties it will discourage ppl from respawning and fighting all day. in guild wars you need a priest to rez you. that way we have a clear winner! sdurer, i guess the flaw is evweryone will kill the support types but if we dont 'con' and it skill based that might make it tough. so, there are many ways to stop the pointless PVP (to me). I might be way off here and if I am please correct me. but in FPS most of them have better PVP cause i know in BF2142 when i blow up another team's Titan it game over. I'd like to see that expect hit MMOs they can rip BF2142 directly and require around the titans to make battles meaningful and discourage rampant ganking but I like FFA PVP anywhere in the world (well prefer it)
pretty much anything can work I know!!! Hell WAR can work and be fun I know this. but I want to see more depth like what I just discussed
I am not sure heavy death penalties will end continuous conflict in an MMO unless you go with permadeath or a death sickness that lasts longer then 1/2 hour. Even then people will use alts to continue the fight for their side. I think the best solution is what shadowbane does, Conflict windows. Now this does take away some from a sandbox type of environment, but allows both meaningful conflict and a sense of urgency when fighting.
For instance you have a rival clan that has been a thorn in your side for a month... You decide to go after one of their cities... You drop a bane (or what ever you want to call it) which makes it know you will be attacking them. Now this is just a declaration of intent... the other guild being on the defensive gets to pick the time the event starts and it runs until either the offense of defensive object is take/destroyed. Even with a fast respawn on players you still have an ending to the conflict as long as one side can dominate the other for a period of time.
You could even go a step further and have a static window for attacks based on timezones. For instance there is a 2 hour window at 8pm EST where all assets are vulnerable. Again you have a clear time frame where conflict can happen and when the window closes to the victor go the spoils.
On a side note there was an interesting concept by an MMO that failed to release (think it was dragon something) but essentially what you carried with you was your XP... For instance... You are out hunting mobs and players... in your own territories you gain XP as normal but in lands under other clans control you gain 2x the xp. Here is the kicker... you collect XP but it is not set to you unless you go back your town and "bank" it. If you die within your own territory you lose all that XP that is not banked. if you get killed by a player outside your territory they get your XP. This gives a nice risk and reward that has meaning to all the players. If you add pack looting I think that is the closest market acceptable FFA meaningful PvP that is viable right now... that is being optimistic.
thanks all good ideas! yeah the bane thing can work. I want for all open PVP to be meaningful and hope to see an MMO allow an area to be claimed (like a port, town, or any area).
my idea was a permadeath-lite (this idea may suck- warning). give players a limited set of lives. like I dunno 7 (you need beta testing to figure out this number). the idea is that if you 'safe rez' you loose a life. If a priest rezzes you- there is no penalty. also, slowly regen lives over time
so after you run out of lives. well, you cant respawn unless a priest rezzes you.
This will make people fear death and it is not a permenant setback. In PVE you are fine because no one usually PVE's without a rezzer. and if you run out of lives...... edit- yeah I want for people to be stuck in ghost mode I guess I am heartless. this might really piss off newbies lol they will need a tuitorial for sure to explain this not a timesink but rather for real warfare
Id like to add something else though, and thats this notion of how "true PvPrs" actually PvP in their games.
Okay, there is no such thing as a "true PvPr". That notion is ludicrous. Everyone has different styles of play. Just cause one guy likes to gank people in FFA PvP doesnt make him any less than a guy who wants a good fair fight. The only thing a PvPr shares with a fellow PvPr is that they like a challenge and want to do something more than just fight computerized AI all day long. Looting is just a part of PvP'ing and something that should be viewed that enchances the experiences by giving it extra tension and risk.
As to jimmy_scyth's post.....dude, what are you smoking? Seriously man, people dont like violence? People dont like conflict? ROFL. Oh man, dude, were you high when you posted this? Do I even need to explain?
Comments
Putting your exaggerated flame bits aside, no I wouldnt flame someone who posted that. People who post threads saying those things are trying to start a thread that invokes some sort of debate and discussion, NOT flaming that so many people enter the threads instigate. People may say its superior, but its their opinion, and they are entitled to their opinion.
Where have you been? that's not exaggerated. I've seen plenty of idiot posts like that on this site. Very seldom have I seen a Post about PvP that looked like it was written by someone other than an 8 year old. I hate PvP but the original poster of this thread at least had enough decency to respect others right to play there way.
I bash PvP players all the time. Until they start respecting us non Hardcore types, then why the hell should we respect them at all?
Raven
And your holier than thou response right there is no different really than a typical "hardcore/pvp'er" response.
Between them and responses like yours..that is why people constantly bicker at each other.
Neither side is right, but both refuse to see themselves as wrong.
D.
This whole argument is all really very simple.
Fact: Pure PvE games are missing the thrill of PvP.
Fact: Pure/hardcore PvP games have, historically, failed. (For X reason.)
Fact: Most PvE games provide at least one or two PvP servers, almost all PvE games allow either arena fighting or dueling, but probably none will ever cater to "hardcore" PvP players because of the base mechanics of the game.
I personally quit UO not because of the PvP system, but rather because it became a rampant breeding ground for kewldoods with ten asterisks in their name, asians with no English skills at all, and overall frustration with the immaturity of the player base. (See The Dread Lord Moervan for a good idea.) Shadowbane, also pure PvP and with thievery!... essentially dead, just hasn't decomposed yet. Most players cannot handle such a free system without degenerating into teabaggers who spend hours just modifying their macros to get the most number of "PWN"s in before the next Corp Por.
That's why there are so few PvP games out there... they don't make nearly as much money as PvE.
Why people troll or flame in treaths?
If people name call someone or any group of people, they will get negative responce. Example word carebear, use PvE player instead.
if people attack other peoples, they will get negative response. Example writen "I'm more skilled than others" or "You don't know anything, check You facts"
if people tell other people how much better they or they choises or they opinions are, they will get negative response. Respect other people choises too.
If You self likes something, don't expect all people like it as You do. There is allways some people who hates what You like. Accept that others have different opinions and they don't allways support what You like.
Don't come to forum with only reason to try prove that someone else if wrong and You are right. There is allways people who disagree with You, what cause negative response.
People them self gets often negative response, becasuse they self cause it by how they did write something, so look in the mirrow first, what did You self write. Don't blame others for bad response, because often You self where the cause for it. Have enough self respect to admit that You maybe caused it. It's not that You where wrong or someone right, it was maybe just bad choise of words.
A lot of problems are just misunderstanding, because it's not allways easy to understand what other peoples mean by they words. Also it's not easy to write stuff so that it doesn't give possibilities to misunderstand what's sayed. So try to be polite allways even when You are little angry by what's writen.
In the end accept that there is as many opinions about same stuff, as there is people in world. Every people looks same situation little different ways and because it, they can have different opinions about it.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
Actually, shadowbane is far from dead. Rather than be a victim of the "open" pvp system, it was a victim of a poor rendering engine. The lackluster graphics, constant lag and inability to support a 100 or more characters on screen at the same time is what killed shadowbane, not to mention the infamous sb.exe error. Shadowbane is currently F2P, and has a couple very active servers. I am currently playing shadowbane, and the pvp centric game is a blast, the only limitations is the technology(or lack thereof) backing the game.
If they could redo shadowbane with a more updated engine, and a dev team backed with more money, shadowbane would do very well in todays market.
D.
No offense...but did you ever even PLAY DAOC? Just curious, cause the pvp frontier and battlegrounds are completely separate from the pve areas. Essentially you had a pve game with 3 different spins on it(3 different realms). You were never forced to engage in pvp, you could pve to your hearts content without ever stepping foot in pvp land. Nothing in the game required you to ever pvp. I know lots of people who never participated in the realm wars. You could farm, raid, craft, quest and all of that without fear of getting ganked..then when you wanted pvp you port to the frontiers and have at it. I don't see how pvp impacted pve in that way, other than people leaving pve raids to go defend keeps in pvp or what not.
You should really pick a better example. Hell, you have a better chance of getting ganked while leveling in WoW than you do in DAOC.
D.
Ha, I still remember grouping with this one female toon who for some reason was carrying around 500k gold on her, and she accidently hit /lootsplit. That was a quick hide and log right there.
Yeah Shadowbane never really failed its F2P now and it isnt doing all that bad. Like all F2P games it isnt monitered with nearly the same vigilance (if any monitering is going on) than when its P2P so of course youre going to have people macroing like crazy.
Hardcore PvP games and servers have failed but its not really all that fair to say thats a reason why Hardcore PvP games shouldnt be made.
During the times these hardcore PvP games were coming out, the MMO's were still in their experimental stages and did not have nearly as much people as MMO's have now. Even the "normal" servers in a game were not nearly as large as the servers now, so saying that PvP servers failed and should never be tried again is ludicrous. There is a large growing niche of hardcore players and its only going to grow with the influx of new players brought in by WoW. There is a definite section of WoW players that want something more. Saying that people dont like hardcore PvP is like saying people dont like serious competition. It just isnt all that realistic.
WoW has set the current trend for PvE and due to money, companies are going to follow suit. But one of these days a company is going to realize that since the PvE market has so much competition, and none in PvP, that they should invest in PvP. Its simple economics and this will happen eventually.
The main issue is that if you go all PVP it becomes difficult to regulate them and stretch out their character progression.
EVE I think they found a good happy medium via their time based progression. They have a guaranteed way to extend chaarcter progression indefintely. they say it would take like 40+ yrs for a guy to unlock everything
EVE also has a lot of subscriptions I believe its more then the PVE based games like City of Heroes.
edit- but I get the gist of what you posted
edit- im thinking I'd like to discuss RvR vs FFA some other time thanks
Quote: Vajuras
0.Topic: Why to people troll risk PVP topics so bad.
1. one thing I can never figure out. usually when you see a topic about LOTRO or some other PVE based MMO people can have a meaningful discussion.
2. But when someone starts a topic asking for Sandbox / hardcore PVP people have a fit. or you guys afraid to see us get our own MMO this bad? I mean, you got a ton of PVE based MMOs why be so afraid of something new coming out?
3. Are you afraid a Game Developer will see the one hardcore PVP post and your world as you know it will end?
4. I admit we are seeing a gradual move towards PVP- even Age of Conan says they want a Hardcore FFA PVP Server and Pirates will have hardcore PVP. And there is EVE which is hella fun. But still why the panic lol? I mean, its not like every MMORPG has gone hardcore?
5. fights that really end whereas ppl dont just keep respawning over and over like they're immortal gods or something. just some penalty like item decay / durability hits, etc.
0. What is your definition of troll, anyone that disagrees with you? Typically when I see a topic on PVP especially when the poster uses “hardcore” in the subject I read it to see how the permadeath will be handled. Just like many here, I have been working on my own game so am always interested in how other games or gamers themselves handle Player Vrs Player (PVP). The problem is that most of PVP posters are never actually posting about PVP but how they should be able to kill anyone anywhere and keep everything their victims carry.
And that’s the rub, looting has nothing to do with PVP. PVP is about the battle, but then again PVP is also about Player vrs Player not Gang Vrs Gang, Realm vrs Realm, or Gank squads vrs Victims. The wrong assumption by most if not all the posts you allude to is that simply the existence of fighting makes the game a PVP game, it doesn’t. And no competition in itself also does not make a game PVP (Sorry but crafting in EVE is not PVP).
Let me put it another way, what makes a Game a MMORPG? See just being an online game does not qualify it, nor would it qualify if it had 180k subscribers but the game was played in instances such as Diablo 2. I could go on but the reality is that if you don’t understand this then you would not understand the difference between a real and a drug store cowboy: Ie. Dressing like one does not make you one especially if you have never ridden a horse. Or quite simply, the answer to your topic, True PVPers get annoyed when fake ones try and claim the badge of honor of PVP by posting stuff that has nothing to do with real PVP.
2: This is a perfect example of why people respond negatively to those posts. A hardcore game means more than just having Permadeath, because these games are considered for experts only Hardcore games have true Risk Vrs Reward (RVR). Now RVR does not just mean you should be rewarded by placing all risk to someone else. It means that the reward be equal to the risk. Ie. If a player goes out and risks killing a bear they should not be rewarded a +20 sword of dragon slaying. By the same token when a player kills another player the risk of killing the player should yield an appropriate reward. Not only is this is why full looting is not typically not used as the reward is far beyond the risk but why most PVP games use duel systems, to try and insure that the rewards = the risk.
This goes back to your post, there is no risk to gank squads or griefers so why should they be rewarded? One last thing that is also always ignored by those that want FFA Killing and Full looting, the risk of breaking the laws. Anyone that has played any RPG or MMOG for any length of time knows that while you may kill any enemy killing a friendly (npc/pc) results in going to jail to being outcast and not allowed to buy or sell in the realm, yet these supposed self-proclaimed “hardcore” players will not accept responsibility for their actions.
3. Any developer seeing any one of the “hardcore pvp” post within the last month would ignore it just as they would ignore a post “Why should we have to lvl, we should be given everything the first day and be running endgame content by the end of that day”, so why would anyone care who sees it? You are confusing pointing out why it would be a bad thing or where the posters are applying unrelated concepts to their post with wanting to hide a post.
4. Again you are confusing hardcore players with a hardcore game and advertising. When you go to the store and see a package that is “new and improved” do you actually believe that it is? Now as I have not seen AOC or Pirates I can not say whether they will be hardcore but as far as EVE it is by no stretch of the imagination Hardcore, actually it used to be a lot closer to a hardcore game when it started. Ands that is the point, being close to something is not the same as being something. Being close to hardcore such as stiff death penalties, stiff rule sets, and punishments such as karma or security hits for breaking the law is close to hardcore but is not hardcore.
5. Ok,, the second part of your statement conflicts with the first, while item decay and durability is the standard for items kept the ability to respawn is a staple of most games except Hardcore games. In a Hardcore game one you die that it, you it does not matter what you had on you or at your bank, it is all gone. You are dead so no longer have access to any of it, why would anyone play a MMOG/MMORPG that way, to loose days, months or even years of work? The only way that a hardcore game would work would be if the game added legacy or had no non-standard issue equipment. But if you allow legacy (being able to pass on the stuff too your new avatar or clan) then it is no longer hardcore, just permadeath.
One last thing, the posters you describe often post items like this quote:
Zactor99
Oh wow, you are sooo correct. People HATE competition! People HATE boxing, wrestling, baseball, soccer, the NFL! People hate going outside and competing in volleyball, croquet, golf, billiards, pool, bowling, and so many other sports.
The problem is that the posters seem to ether ignore the facts or try applying an unrelated term. As in the quote above, the poster is trying to prove a point by using the unrelated term “competition” and glossing it over with sarcasm. Do *people hate boxing, yes but they like to watch it. Do they like Wrestling, basketball, soccer or the NFL, not to participate in but to watch, sure. The difference is between the ones who are actually competition and the spectators. Spectators are not in the competition, by using the broad term “people” the poster is trying to bring some sort of legitimacy to his argument. This is the same as when a PKer tries to legitimize what they do by calling using the unrelated term PVP.
The second part of Zactor99’s post deals with activities that most would do, however it is used out of context. Even those he was trying to be sarcastic, yes some people do actually hate going outside. Mixing team games with single player activities (forget the fact that in most of the games listed you are actually competing against yourself) seems to provide a smoke screen but the truth is that shows the one sidedness of these posters.
Electronic Gamers are not spectators, we need to compete against the games environment, NPCs, PC’s and even ourselves. All are valid styles of play, there is not one style that is more important than another to anyone else but ourselves. To the OP, the final answer to your topic is, the resion people respond to those posts is because to poster’s do not understand that playing Hello Kitty OL is just as Valid as playing Gankfest08.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
I personally don't like real time regulated time sinks... but that is just a personal opinion. Over all it seems to be a non-issue for most of the subscribers.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I personally don't like real time regulated time sinks... but that is just a personal opinion. Over all it seems to be a non-issue for most of the subscribers.
oh that is a good point
My point with what you quoted is simply that PEOPLE DO LOVE COMPETING. You make it sound like they only like to "watch" competition, but not partake in it themselves. That is utter bull. Boys fill school yards playing football, soccer, rugby, and 1000 variations of those type of games. When they get older, they might get fatter or less willing to get hurt, but they they still partake in other competitive games. Like poker or other card games. Or like making bets with their friends/employees about those sports we love to watch. Betting IS competition. Or they go bowl, play golf, play billiards, darts, or 100 other things.
Women compete too, usually in less obvious ways. They compete on who can find the best bargains at the mall, who has the best boyfriend, who is the slimmest, or who can apply their makeup the best. Less subtle, but still they compete all the time none-the-less. By human nature, we are VERY competitive. You can choose to disagree, but I would call you a fool for disagreeing with that statement.
Finally, you try and make PvE games equal to PvP games by stating a truly idiotic and equally sarcastic statement yourself: "playing Hello Kitty OL is just as valid as playing Gankfest08".
...Valid to whom? Valid to the dweeb playing Hello Kitty OL at the age of 22?
Oh yes, I'm sure he thinks Helo Kitty Online is as valid. But to anyone else, he is lame, lol. What you said there is almost like saying that a guy who grows up and plays with paperdolls is just as "valid" a man as a guy who makes it into the NFL as a defensive linebacker. Well, I know which guy I'd rather watch on TV.
Also, you do nothing more then any other PvE player by acting like all PvP hardcore game lovers are gankers and griefers. Your "Gankfest08" surely shows how you side with the softer PvE type of games and your desires to "compete with the games environment" as opposed to actually competing against another human opponent as which the stakes are higher and more difficult.
Your idea of RVR is just plain stupid and doesn't even deserve a response. I will say that if I kill another player 3 levels above me, I DO deserve something in his inventory.. I don't want a game generated piece of crap "butterfly eye" left on his corpse instead of something in his inventory. Risk goes up, Reward should also go up... DUH.
Mod Edit
- Zaxx
edit- nvm mind this post read one below
btw the main thing I want is to discourage ppl from respawning over and over and fighting all day long. no clear winners. but if we go with death penalties- it discourages that. all kinda ways you can employ to stop it
this is the deal. in an MMO with any sorta PVP in the world itself- PVPers love to go invade a town or takeover a hotspot (it can be mobs, mines, etc). Well, if we had good death penalties it will discourage ppl from respawning and fighting all day. in guild wars you need a priest to rez you. that way we have a clear winner! sdurer, i guess the flaw is evweryone will kill the support types but if we dont 'con' and it skill based that might make it tough.
so, there are many ways to stop the pointless PVP (to me). I might be way off here and if I am please correct me. but in FPS most of them have better PVP cause i know in BF2142 when i blow up another team's Titan it game over. I'd like to see that expect hit MMOs
they can rip BF2142 directly and require around the titans to make battles meaningful and discourage rampant ganking but I like FFA PVP anywhere in the world (well prefer it)
pretty much anything can work I know!!! Hell WAR can work and be fun I know this. but I want to see more depth like what I just discussed
yeah good post this is the type of comments I was really looking for. I do sometimes tend to be offensive I guess but whats funny I like PVE too. I like reading the storyline and role playing at times.
maybe some people think pvp with a death penalty is just wow with a death penalty, where that's not the case. A death penalty adds politics and diplomacy to a game. If you had a death penalty in WoW the goals would be to make your server 100% alliance or horde. Be it an exp or you drop items penalty (dropping items would need rebalancing however, like 6 drops per boss or maybe even more, also more bag space for backup gear).
Lets say eve online didn't have a death penalty, it would just be a bunch of kids "dueling" in a select few systems, PF, P3N? (forget, lonetrek and NE of that is asshole of eve so I never go there), A2, HED-GP, and whatever new 0.0 systems there are with the jump gate changes, I haven't played in a while. There would be no reason to mine for new ships, and without reason for that there'd be no reason to make player stations etc.
So wanting pvp with a death penalty is like asking for a game with politics and diplomacy.
faction games are stupid too, it's like they're trying to manufacture politics and diplomacy since the game lacks a death penalty. I bet PotBS sucks cuase of factions
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
I don't know why I even get surprised at this anymore, but.....
I can't believe how totally hung up PvPers on this thread seem to be about physical violence. There's this attitude that anything other than warfare is not PvP. What load of horse shit!!
I especially like it when Zax brought up sports to answer the guy that stated how most people want a nice safe environment with rules. It was funny because, catch this, SPORTS HAVE RULES! SPORTS ARE MOSTLY SAFE!!! DOH!! In pre-trammel UO, there were no rules. Outside of town anything went and anything did. Is it any wonder that they changed it? Let's say you went on vacation, in another state, and found that the law only applied within towns and 50 feet of city limits? Bet you'd be high tailing your ass outta thar' pretty quick.
And that's the rub folks. Most of us play these games to unwind. Yeah, I like the rush that I get from a good game of Madden, Soul Calibur, or Battlfield 2, but I don't exactly appreciate hearing some 10 year old screaming obscenities and trash talk in my ear over voice chat. Especially after working the sixth to fourteenth ten hour shift with no days off. Unfortunately, that's the mentality of most PvPers. And that's why I either play with people that I know or just don't use voice chat.
With MMORPGs, there's that added element of multiple goals. In BF2 or C&C 3, the goals are pretty clear, ditto for the victory conditions. In MMORPGs, you set your own goals and victory conditions. If I was playing a truly sandbox and was growing a farm in order to turn a huge profit and expand my business, it could all go to shit by a small group of punks that just run through and burn the whole thing to the ground. Not to a competing farm or business, but to a bunch of punks who get off on ruining someone else's day. Why would anyone pay $15 for that? I'm sure that PvPers would pay, but no one else would stand for it for more than a week or two. Then what? All that's left is a world full of bandits preying on each other for no reason.
Let's also not forget that the theme of war just doesn't jive with a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people compete but that's not the same as what we envision when we think of warfare. It's a pretty big stretch to compare Golf to WWII. I don't see to many people over the age of 30 playing football in the park on Sunday as compared to baseball, basketball, tennis, ect. I'd go so far as to say that more people play pool or bar darts than paintball.
A couple of good examples. I have a friend that just got back from Iraq. I went over to his house to check out his XBox 360 and I saw that he had GRAW. Come to find out that he was planning on selling it since he couldn't bear to even look at the box. It reminded him of what he had been through recently. My wife grew up in the projects in Chicago and won't touch a Grand Theft Auto game because it reminds her too much of the shit she saw while growing up.
All that violent shit you find so integral to the human spirit has a big negative reality to it that most people are just not cool with. Call it carebear if you like. Call it respectful of reality. Call it stupid and shallow. Like it or not, that's the way it is.
Those people starting these "PvP / risk" threads need to grow up, stop trying to antagonize people into playing their way, and broaden their outlook to take in all forms of competition and conflict, i.e. commerce, politics, ect. If you do that, you'll notice that replies will be a whole lot nicer.
To the OP, read this thread and you will understand why all PvP topics descend into farce.
Arrogant Twa@ts and people who love to wind up Arrogant Twa@ts...
PvP maybe the Future of MMORPG.
But FFA PVP certainly the hell is not.
The PvP of the future is the FPS PvP in a MMORPG setting. Low Risk, High Fun.
Sports have little or no risk and the people that run the sports do everything they can to make this happen.
Football(real Football btw, the one thats older than the country that hijacked the name) was a massive glorified street brawl, where you scored by getting the ball through a doorway, any doorway, if it wasn't open you opened it. Now look at it.
Hockey (Field) was once banned by a King of England because it was crippling so many men, it was affecting his and his nobles ability to raise men to fight in their wars.
Look at FPS, what rules the roost?
Team Shooters not the old FFA Deathmatches. CS:S and Battlefield in all its forms.
People want to compete as a UNIT, we're a Tribal people, the sole sodding reason we rule this planet is because the few things that can kill us, can't compete with our numbers, our ability to work towards a common goal.
FFA PvP is dead, let it alone.
Now Team PvP, well I will see you in Warhammer and if you ain't one of the Da Boyz, I will be wearing your head as a frigging trophy.
True PvP is almost non existent in today's mmorpg market. You have to go back to UO pre-Trammel, EQ, AC (Darktide), or the PvP servers of DAoC to get it. That's pretty much a fact, as sad as it is, and it's not horse manure.
No, I brought up the fact that people like COMPETITION, as he said that most people hate competition with other people. And to your sports are mostly safe crap, let's see you go box Wladimir Klitschko (the #1 heavyweight boxer in the world if you aren't up on boxing).. and lets watch him pound you in the face a few times, then have you come back here and tell me how "safe" real sports are. Or maybe you'd prefer to get hit with a hardball at 105 mph, or maybe take a hit from Dallas Cowboys safety Roy Williams.
That's the difference between REAL life and VIDEO games, bro. Or did you not know there is a difference??
Let's rephrase that for this poor guy eh? He hates constantly losing and getting his ass handed to him by "some 10 year old" who then laughs in his face. ...Yeh bro, I understand. I'd hate PvP games too if I could only beat PvE type of mobs. ;-)
Sounds cool, you're right. But in that scenario you mention, those punks who burned down your crops would (should) turn perma-grey to you and anyone else helping you grow those crops for profit. And that's where the FUN starts! Now you getta hunt them down and kick their ass and make them pay for what they did! Maybe you could corner them, beat half the life out of them, then tell them to either pay you 120% of what your crops were worth, or DIE and lose all their shit to you! Fun, Fun!
Thanks for stating the obvious, Jimmy. Just as you said, a freakin' PvP video game is NOT real life. It is not a real war, You aren't losing your REAL crops worth REAL money, so it's a GAME! It's for FUN! Not to get so pissed off about when a 10 year old kicks your ass in BF2 or when 3 10 year olds burn your virtual crops in your imaginary PvP game.
Understood. Some video games may have elements in them that remind some people of harsh real life events. So they shouldn't play such a game. But what the hell does that have to do with the topic at hand or how PvP games suck?
I'll be more then happy to be nicer when you stop calling PvP games with even the slightest element of something called a death penalty a "griefer" or "ganker" game. Some of us like mroe challenge in our mmos without going out and playing a straight out kill or be killed only game like BF2 or Quake. We love the elements of mmos and crafting and mining and stuff, but we also want more of a challenge then mindlessly killing 700,000 mobs one level below you all day long without ever even coming close to dying. Furthermore, we have more then reason to bitch nowdays. Why? because there hasn't been any freakin' mmo games that suit our playstyle in like over 5 damn years now! It's all this BS WoW softy nobody gets hurt crap. So as more and more WoW clones come out and less and less pre-trammel UO games are released, you can bet your ass that more and more people will be bitching just as I have been for a while myself. That's just the way it is, as you like to say so often, Jimmy. We don't want guys like you playing our style of game. You just whine and cry and spam every time you die anyhow, even if you are 10 levels above us and you attack us from behind. We just want a decent game for our playstyle rather then the 700 WoW clones we have had the past 5 or 6 years.
- Zaxx
Don't forget FPS PVP allows me to pick my enemies. In BF2142 my clan ran their own server. Everyone else that joined was on the other side. The equivalent to that is FFA PVP where I choose my teammates and enemies (edit- or Faction versus Faction or Guild vs Guild).
never forget, in rainbow 6: vegas I can always switch teams. sometimes I play against my friends and other times we're on the same side
Realm vs Realm picks my enemies and friends. I can have a real life buddy but he's my enemy cause he own the other side? um, thats kinda messed up. Imagine- what if the game is 'one server'. so chances are you will meet a gamer in real life. you become fast friends. but wait- I gotta fight my friend cause he picked the wrong race???? Thats screwed up!!!
RvR has taken the fun outta role play. much more realistic and meaningful to fight my real enemies.
So at least go Faction vs Faction (you can change sides at anytime) or FFA PVP. but not RvR thats umm, well you know its not preferred and is shit compared to a true FPS
For instance you have a rival clan that has been a thorn in your side for a month... You decide to go after one of their cities... You drop a bane (or what ever you want to call it) which makes it know you will be attacking them. Now this is just a declaration of intent... the other guild being on the defensive gets to pick the time the event starts and it runs until either the offense of defensive object is take/destroyed. Even with a fast respawn on players you still have an ending to the conflict as long as one side can dominate the other for a period of time.
You could even go a step further and have a static window for attacks based on timezones. For instance there is a 2 hour window at 8pm EST where all assets are vulnerable. Again you have a clear time frame where conflict can happen and when the window closes to the victor go the spoils.
On a side note there was an interesting concept by an MMO that failed to release (think it was dragon something) but essentially what you carried with you was your XP... For instance... You are out hunting mobs and players... in your own territories you gain XP as normal but in lands under other clans control you gain 2x the xp. Here is the kicker... you collect XP but it is not set to you unless you go back your town and "bank" it. If you die within your own territory you lose all that XP that is not banked. if you get killed by a player outside your territory they get your XP. This gives a nice risk and reward that has meaning to all the players. If you add pack looting I think that is the closest market acceptable FFA meaningful PvP that is viable right now... that is being optimistic.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I am not sure heavy death penalties will end continuous conflict in an MMO unless you go with permadeath or a death sickness that lasts longer then 1/2 hour. Even then people will use alts to continue the fight for their side. I think the best solution is what shadowbane does, Conflict windows. Now this does take away some from a sandbox type of environment, but allows both meaningful conflict and a sense of urgency when fighting.For instance you have a rival clan that has been a thorn in your side for a month... You decide to go after one of their cities... You drop a bane (or what ever you want to call it) which makes it know you will be attacking them. Now this is just a declaration of intent... the other guild being on the defensive gets to pick the time the event starts and it runs until either the offense of defensive object is take/destroyed. Even with a fast respawn on players you still have an ending to the conflict as long as one side can dominate the other for a period of time.
You could even go a step further and have a static window for attacks based on timezones. For instance there is a 2 hour window at 8pm EST where all assets are vulnerable. Again you have a clear time frame where conflict can happen and when the window closes to the victor go the spoils.
On a side note there was an interesting concept by an MMO that failed to release (think it was dragon something) but essentially what you carried with you was your XP... For instance... You are out hunting mobs and players... in your own territories you gain XP as normal but in lands under other clans control you gain 2x the xp. Here is the kicker... you collect XP but it is not set to you unless you go back your town and "bank" it. If you die within your own territory you lose all that XP that is not banked. if you get killed by a player outside your territory they get your XP. This gives a nice risk and reward that has meaning to all the players. If you add pack looting I think that is the closest market acceptable FFA meaningful PvP that is viable right now... that is being optimistic.
thanks all good ideas! yeah the bane thing can work. I want for all open PVP to be meaningful and hope to see an MMO allow an area to be claimed (like a port, town, or any area).
my idea was a permadeath-lite (this idea may suck- warning). give players a limited set of lives. like I dunno 7 (you need beta testing to figure out this number). the idea is that if you 'safe rez' you loose a life. If a priest rezzes you- there is no penalty. also, slowly regen lives over time
so after you run out of lives. well, you cant respawn unless a priest rezzes you.
This will make people fear death and it is not a permenant setback. In PVE you are fine because no one usually PVE's without a rezzer. and if you run out of lives...... edit- yeah I want for people to be stuck in ghost mode I guess I am heartless. this might really piss off newbies lol they will need a tuitorial for sure to explain this not a timesink but rather for real warfare
edit- sry made this post short
WoW!
Look at all of the replies...
Id like to add something else though, and thats this notion of how "true PvPrs" actually PvP in their games.
Okay, there is no such thing as a "true PvPr". That notion is ludicrous. Everyone has different styles of play. Just cause one guy likes to gank people in FFA PvP doesnt make him any less than a guy who wants a good fair fight. The only thing a PvPr shares with a fellow PvPr is that they like a challenge and want to do something more than just fight computerized AI all day long. Looting is just a part of PvP'ing and something that should be viewed that enchances the experiences by giving it extra tension and risk.
As to jimmy_scyth's post.....dude, what are you smoking? Seriously man, people dont like violence? People dont like conflict? ROFL. Oh man, dude, were you high when you posted this? Do I even need to explain?