No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
god i hate those hardcore wannabe that think mmorpg are all about severe death penalty, ffa pvp etc, so if its not hard enough for you, it sucks? but if a mmo suck but is hard you'll play it
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct. /sarcasm off
There would be 2 types. The Mom and pop diners and Mc'Donalds.
You have the small mom a pops. A small little cafe with a homey feel. Diffrent little tid bits of history about the place. You get to know the owners very well and if you like the food you can come back talk with the locals and have a wonderful time nearly spending all time eating there.
Then you have Mc'Donalds. There everywhere on every corner. You drive in the drive trew talking to the box "Can I take your order" you know what happens, (Say what you want, Pay..get the food, Eat and leave) . Feel sick after eating.But sometimes you get addicted, And you become fat().
I have no idea why i'm making this thread....Ok...discuss.
Hrmmm....ponder ponder...
What about T.G.I.F (Thank Goodness It's Fridays)? A lot of us play MMO's starting on Friday and over the weekend...How dare you label MMO's as one type or another of restaraunt! There's so many choices! LOL Just kidding....but in some weird way I kind of get your point.
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
I get the restaraunt analogy, but it isn't really applicable, really mom and pop places and fast food are one in the same, both use subpar crappy ingredients to make bad food. Fast food chains target people who want convience and just want something to eat and possiblily even addicted to it. Mom and pop places get money from foolish out of towners, who are expecting something different and good, but they don't deliver. It is no wonder I prefer to cook my own food.
Analogously speaking, maybe that means I don't like mainstream or niche/indie MMOGs and would prefer to make my own, which is true, but unlike cooking, I don't know how to make games and it costs much more.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Here let me ask you one question: Do you have anything to back up the claim that WoW is not a good game besides your own opinion?
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
You joking right? I thought you claim to have played WoW? No game I know of changes as much in tone after you hit level 70 as WoW does. One days it’s solo encouraged questing, the next it’s grinding battlegrounds, grinding faction and “raid or die” with an associated grind for mats to make consumables.
Other games may have end game raiding but the tone is in keeping with the rest of the game, not a complete 180. EQ2 raiding for example is far less hardcore then WoW raiding. The raids are shorter, there is little of no flagging required, you don’t need to grind for consumables to use on the raid and you generally don’t have to clear the same trash mobs over and over. I.E. other then the fact your working with more people it's the same semi causal group oriented game you've been playing all along.
The criticism I'm referting to of hardcore raiders obviously, I mean my quote reads “Despite the criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders”. Seems pretty clear to me. I really want to know what rock you have been living under if you haven’t heard the multitude of complaints from WoW raid guilds.
WoW is cheaper when compared to same-era MMOs because the system requirements are lower. People didn't have to upgrade their machines to play it as I (and others) did to play EQ2, SWG, E&B, etc. Sure, the subscription may cost the same, but you can play it on virtually any machine. I have a friend who has a 6 year old PC that has never been upgraded, and he plays WoW because that's the only recent big-name MMO that he can run on it.
I've also never seen so many people have their social and professional lives ruined by a game as I've seen with WoW. I could name a dozen people I know that have been negatively affected due to their inability to put the game down, from getting fired to losing a mate to losing custody of their children.
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
I did not mention anything about quality. Just becuase a game is high quality doesnt mean it is "good". I could release a game with few bugs huge content but the gameplay could be awful. And the reviewers could still give it a 10 if they think the game to them is "fun." Everyone has theyre own definition of fun and you cant rely on reviews alone to give you a product you will like.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
There have been countless articles written about how McDonald's food is bad for your body. Hell there is a documentary on it called "Supersized". Its about your average joe eating pure McDonald's and seeing the changes in his body. It isnt pretty. The point is, is that even though people may say "well McDonald's is awsome and everyone eats there, it must be a great place!" is flawed cause YOU may not like it. Saying that 9 million players are "right" is bogus.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
No argument to back it up. Next.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Okay, my bad. Agreed, everyone has their own definition of fun. There are people who dislike something and think its bad, but thats human nature.
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I dont like country music, but I dont think its bad either. I dont like McDonald's but I dont think its bad food (quality wise). I dont like WoW, but I dont think its a good game. The argument that I was saying was that just because a vast majority of people do something doesnt make it "right" as referring to your previous post. Just because a vast majority of people play WoW doesnt make it right. What 9 million players mean is a large answer that is not solved by saying "WoW is a good game". That answer is way too simple for such a complex thing as an MMO.
MMO's are fun for various reasons: Gameplay, crafting, PvP, PvE, roleplaying etc and the biggest - socialization. WoW gets publicity. WoW appealed to a large BASE audience a la Warcraft 3. WoW was an easy game to play. Through this WoW was able to gain sucess. Through this socialization people invite their friends and so forth and all of these new people who havent even played a game before are playing WoW and an MMO for the first time. Many of them have not even tried another MMO and dont know if there is something better for them out there. See how complicated it gets? Ive seen alot of videos and know alot of people who play WoW and say that they do NOT ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. But they are stil addicited. Why? to the Level-Gear Acquisition syndrome. MMO companies use this tactict to keep people playing. People think "well if i get this piece of gear the game may become more fun" yet there is another patch right up the road and raises the gear even more, forcing people to stay.
So its alot more complicated than saying "9 million people are playing it and loving it" making it a great quality game. Its alot more complicated than that. Just becuase 7 million people are driving a Ford Focus doesnt necessarily make it a "good" product.
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Yeah , while were at it....why not just throw out what the millions and millions of people ACTUALLY playing it think. Because OBVIOUSLy they only play it because of peer pressure ....they couldnt possibly, *gasp* like the game. And If they do like the game ....It has to be there first MMO ever .....I mean gawd, no self respecting veteran gamer would ever play WOW ............
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Yeah , while were at it....why not just throw out what the millions and millions of people ACTUALLY playing it think. Because OBVIOUSLy they only play it because of peer pressure ....they couldnt possibly, *gasp* like the game. And If they do like the game ....It has to be there first MMO ever .....I mean gawd, no self respecting veteran gamer would ever play WOW ............
/sarcasm off
Yeah and lets assume ALL of them LOVE playing it and take all of our arguments to the extreme. We couldnt possibly *gasp* say that some of them dont actually like it and are playing it for reasons other than actually liking it. I mean it isnt in human nature, we dont have those feelings, we just are robots and if we buy something we use it with a big fat smile on our faces.
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
I did not mention anything about quality. Just becuase a game is high quality doesnt mean it is "good". I could release a game with few bugs huge content but the gameplay could be awful. And the reviewers could still give it a 10 if they think the game to them is "fun." Everyone has theyre own definition of fun and you cant rely on reviews alone to give you a product you will like.
A good game that is fun to play is high quality, because thats what you buy a game for, to be entertained. Ofcourse everyone has they're own definition of what is fun, but you should learn that just because YOU don't think its fun does not mean that is absolute fact.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
There have been countless articles written about how McDonald's food is bad for your body. Hell there is a documentary on it called "Supersized". Its about your average joe eating pure McDonald's and seeing the changes in his body. It isnt pretty. The point is, is that even though people may say "well McDonald's is awsome and everyone eats there, it must be a great place!" is flawed cause YOU may not like it. Saying that 9 million players are "right" is bogus.
I honnestly have never met anyone in my entire life that goes to McDonald's to eat healthy food. People go to McDonalds because they want fast, tasty food. Do you think Burger king is healthy? Ofcourse not. Do you think your local no-name fast food restaurant is healthy? Ofcourse not. McDonalds is doing good at what its supposed to do, just like WoW is doing good at what its supposed to do.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
No argument to back it up. Next.
Its called common sense. Next.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Okay, my bad. Agreed, everyone has their own definition of fun. There are people who dislike something and think its bad, but thats human nature.
I don't think its human nature, I think its just arrogance. Please keep in mind that I NEVER argued that just because a game is high rated, has many people playing, and is of high quality that you should actually like it. to give an example of my own, I'm a big fan of the Suikoden series, its a rather unknown series of console RPG's. I have to say that the suikoden serie is my favorite video game series, but you don't see me running around yelling "Suikoden is better then Final Fantasy! Final Fantasy sucks!" because I know the final fantasy series are better, I just happen to like another serie better.
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I dont like country music, but I dont think its bad either. I dont like McDonald's but I dont think its bad food (quality wise). I dont like WoW, but I dont think its a good game. The argument that I was saying was that just because a vast majority of people do something doesnt make it "right" as referring to your previous post. Just because a vast majority of people play WoW doesnt make it right. What 9 million players mean is a large answer that is not solved by saying "WoW is a good game". That answer is way too simple for such a complex thing as an MMO.
MMO's are fun for various reasons: Gameplay, crafting, PvP, PvE, roleplaying etc and the biggest - socialization. WoW gets publicity. WoW appealed to a large BASE audience a la Warcraft 3. WoW was an easy game to play. Through this WoW was able to gain sucess. Through this socialization people invite their friends and so forth and all of these new people who havent even played a game before are playing WoW and an MMO for the first time. Many of them have not even tried another MMO and dont know if there is something better for them out there. See how complicated it gets? Ive seen alot of videos and know alot of people who play WoW and say that they do NOT ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. But they are stil addicited. Why? to the Level-Gear Acquisition syndrome. MMO companies use this tactict to keep people playing. People think "well if i get this piece of gear the game may become more fun" yet there is another patch right up the road and raises the gear even more, forcing people to stay.
So its alot more complicated than saying "9 million people are playing it and loving it" making it a great quality game. Its alot more complicated than that. Just becuase 7 million people are driving a Ford Focus doesnt necessarily make it a "good" product.
Well there are a lot of veterans playing World of Warcraft, a lot of MMO's lost quite a few subscribers after WoW's release, but that really isn't my point. Final Fantasy is also a huge franchise and Squaresoft one of the most respect video game developers ever, yet Final Fantasy did not even come close to WoW's numbers. and look at games like Lineage and Lineage 2. those games are not based on any franchise, yet those managed to get a lot of subscribers. Ragnarok Online, same thing. Or how about Guild Wars? Sure, its free and all, but how many games can actually claim "We sold 3 million copies"? Not many. A famous franchise is not a pass for success.
I think this debate is pretty much pointless. the difference between you and me is that I don't think my opinion is fact.
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Yeah , while were at it....why not just throw out what the millions and millions of people ACTUALLY playing it think. Because OBVIOUSLy they only play it because of peer pressure ....they couldnt possibly, *gasp* like the game. And If they do like the game ....It has to be there first MMO ever .....I mean gawd, no self respecting veteran gamer would ever play WOW ............
/sarcasm off
Yeah and lets assume ALL of them LOVE playing it and take all of our arguments to the extreme. We couldnt possibly *gasp* say that some of them dont actually like it and are playing it for reasons other than actually liking it. I mean it isnt in human nature, we dont have those feelings, we just are robots and if we buy something we use it with a big fat smile on our faces.
/sarcasm off
No instead, lets assume that the vast majority of them do not enjoy the game at all. I mean, everyone LOVES paying 15$ a month for something they don't enjoy.
I don't think I even have to type sarcasm off here.
No doubt Blizzard/WoW is the Mcdonalds of MMOGs. They serve the most players, the masses who lack good taste. The game is not challenging/healthy for you, it's a dummied down, unrealistic floating icons over NPCs, lack of significant death penalty, anyone can easily be a master craftsman, flawed no risk /reward PvP of a game. SOE and their station pass gamelist would be the all you can eat buffet restaurant. The concept fools gullible people into thinking they are getting their monies worth, but the quality of the games/food is below par, some make you downright sick, and you realistically end up playing as often as you would in a regular choose one quality MMOG situation. Sigil/Vanguard would be that hole in the wall ethnic restaurant that the health department closed for uncleanliness and poor quality gaming.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
In “restaurant terms” WoW is being reviewed by people who have never eaten anything but fast food, so the fact that they like it doesn’t mean it isn’t like McDonalds. How many critics have dedicated reviewers for MMOs? For that matter how can you possibly judge an MMO in a couple weeks? Any MMO that you can fully review after just a few weeks sucks by definition.
There is no doubt WoW is designed to be palatable to the MMO noob and the reviewer who only plays a couple weeks then has to move on and review something else. I guarantee you veteran MMO players will see things differently once they get the full picture of the game. This doesn’t mean they won’t like it but they will like different things.
Despite criticism after TBC, WoW is still the most popular game for hardcore raiders. In fact that’s likely still its strongest points, but how many of these reviewers give an in depth analysis of WoW end game raiding? How many of them review the honor and faction grinds? Most of these reviewers you refer to treat it as a limited replay standalone game. This isn’t how you judge an MMO, or perhaps I should say this isn’t how knowledgeable people judge and MMO…
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
I did not mention anything about quality. Just becuase a game is high quality doesnt mean it is "good". I could release a game with few bugs huge content but the gameplay could be awful. And the reviewers could still give it a 10 if they think the game to them is "fun." Everyone has theyre own definition of fun and you cant rely on reviews alone to give you a product you will like.
A good game that is fun to play is high quality, because thats what you buy a game for, to be entertained. Ofcourse everyone has they're own definition of what is fun, but you should learn that just because YOU don't think its fun does not mean that is absolute fact.
Of course not.But my point is - and I'll repeat it - Just because reviewers give the game a high score doesnt make it a "good" game. As much as theyre critics and its theyre job to do so, many times game reviews are subjectory. You pretty much agree with me on this with your reply. So we actually agree - your just contradicting your previous statement. Either people have their own definitions of fun, or reviewers know everything. Hopefully you'll go for the former.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
There have been countless articles written about how McDonald's food is bad for your body. Hell there is a documentary on it called "Supersized". Its about your average joe eating pure McDonald's and seeing the changes in his body. It isnt pretty. The point is, is that even though people may say "well McDonald's is awsome and everyone eats there, it must be a great place!" is flawed cause YOU may not like it. Saying that 9 million players are "right" is bogus.
I honnestly have never met anyone in my entire life that goes to McDonald's to eat healthy food. People go to McDonalds because they want fast, tasty food. Do you think Burger king is healthy? Ofcourse not. Do you think your local no-name fast food restaurant is healthy? Ofcourse not. McDonalds is doing good at what its supposed to do, just like WoW is doing good at what its supposed to do.
Just because McDonald's is *supposed* to get you fat doesnt make it right. Thats twisted logic. Even though people go to play WoW cause its the place to go doesnt mean that its necessarily a good game.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
No argument to back it up. Next.
Its called common sense. Next.
Oh uh. And again nothing to back it up...lol.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Okay, my bad. Agreed, everyone has their own definition of fun. There are people who dislike something and think its bad, but thats human nature.
I don't think its human nature, I think its just arrogance. Please keep in mind that I NEVER argued that just because a game is high rated, has many people playing, and is of high quality that you should actually like it. to give an example of my own, I'm a big fan of the Suikoden series, its a rather unknown series of console RPG's. I have to say that the suikoden serie is my favorite video game series, but you don't see me running around yelling "Suikoden is better then Final Fantasy! Final Fantasy sucks!" because I know the final fantasy series are better, I just happen to like another serie better.
Human nature = arrogance
Btw on a side note Im actually a big big fan of Suikoden especially the first 2 games, they have a special place to my heart. Surprised to meet one here, not many of us out there, least that I know. (compared to FF)
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I dont like country music, but I dont think its bad either. I dont like McDonald's but I dont think its bad food (quality wise). I dont like WoW, but I dont think its a good game. The argument that I was saying was that just because a vast majority of people do something doesnt make it "right" as referring to your previous post. Just because a vast majority of people play WoW doesnt make it right. What 9 million players mean is a large answer that is not solved by saying "WoW is a good game". That answer is way too simple for such a complex thing as an MMO.
MMO's are fun for various reasons: Gameplay, crafting, PvP, PvE, roleplaying etc and the biggest - socialization. WoW gets publicity. WoW appealed to a large BASE audience a la Warcraft 3. WoW was an easy game to play. Through this WoW was able to gain sucess. Through this socialization people invite their friends and so forth and all of these new people who havent even played a game before are playing WoW and an MMO for the first time. Many of them have not even tried another MMO and dont know if there is something better for them out there. See how complicated it gets? Ive seen alot of videos and know alot of people who play WoW and say that they do NOT ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. But they are stil addicited. Why? to the Level-Gear Acquisition syndrome. MMO companies use this tactict to keep people playing. People think "well if i get this piece of gear the game may become more fun" yet there is another patch right up the road and raises the gear even more, forcing people to stay.
So its alot more complicated than saying "9 million people are playing it and loving it" making it a great quality game. Its alot more complicated than that. Just becuase 7 million people are driving a Ford Focus doesnt necessarily make it a "good" product.
Well there are a lot of veterans playing World of Warcraft, a lot of MMO's lost quite a few subscribers after WoW's release, but that really isn't my point. Final Fantasy is also a huge franchise and Squaresoft one of the most respect video game developers ever, yet Final Fantasy did not even come close to WoW's numbers. and look at games like Lineage and Lineage 2. those games are not based on any franchise, yet those managed to get a lot of subscribers. Ragnarok Online, same thing. Or how about Guild Wars? Sure, its free and all, but how many games can actually claim "We sold 3 million copies"? Not many. A famous franchise is not a pass for success.
Well of course look at all the countless movie games that come out - most of them are crap. Again you end it with the absolute statement. A famous franchise is indeed not a pass for success but in WoW's case it helped alot. World of Wacraft was one of the first (if not THE first) MMO with a refined gaming PC company to come out with an existing franchise and take advantage of a tried and true method for MMO's. A famous franchise is not a pass for success, but combined with the right ingrediants (in WoW's case a perfectionist company, money to back them up, time and the EQ model) , can be very powerful. Take a look at WAR, the fanbase must be huge compared to other starting games just because of the fact that its based on Warhammer yet has nothing to do with the tabletop game.
I think this debate is pretty much pointless. the difference between you and me is that I don't think my opinion is fact.
Ohhhhh please. Haha. Dont give me that, do I need to cut and paste "IMO" between every single paragraph? Of course I dont think my opinion is fact, my opinion is my opinion. What makes this debate important is the fact that it offers different viewpoints to different people.
The real difference between me and you is that you make absolutes: saying that 8 million players are right and everyone else is wrong, saying that a famous franchise is not a pass for success, saying that reviewers are right and thats it (hah!) saying that the world is black and white; when there are really shades of grey.
Im sure you'll disagree with me again, so Im afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
If MMO's were MMORPG's they might be a lot better. Perhaps to save a few extra key strokes people may type MMO's, however I feel as though we are moving more towards MMOAG, Massive MultiPlayer Action Games.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
There would be 2 types. The Mom and pop diners and Mc'Donalds.
You have the small mom a pops. A small little cafe with a homey feel. Diffrent little tid bits of history about the place. You get to know the owners very well and if you like the food you can come back talk with the locals and have a wonderful time nearly spending all time eating there.
Then you have Mc'Donalds. There everywhere on every corner. You drive in the drive trew talking to the box "Can I take your order" you know what happens, (Say what you want, Pay..get the food, Eat and leave) . Feel sick after eating.But sometimes you get addicted, And you become fat().
I have no idea why i'm making this thread....Ok...discuss.
Well, I believe they are ALL like fast food resturaunts. Little substance, but a great fix.
Comments
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
god i hate those hardcore wannabe that think mmorpg are all about severe death penalty, ffa pvp etc, so if its not hard enough for you, it sucks? but if a mmo suck but is hard you'll play it
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
Hrmmm....ponder ponder...
What about T.G.I.F (Thank Goodness It's Fridays)? A lot of us play MMO's starting on Friday and over the weekend...How dare you label MMO's as one type or another of restaraunt! There's so many choices! LOL Just kidding....but in some weird way I kind of get your point.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
I get the restaraunt analogy, but it isn't really applicable, really mom and pop places and fast food are one in the same, both use subpar crappy ingredients to make bad food. Fast food chains target people who want convience and just want something to eat and possiblily even addicted to it. Mom and pop places get money from foolish out of towners, who are expecting something different and good, but they don't deliver. It is no wonder I prefer to cook my own food.
Analogously speaking, maybe that means I don't like mainstream or niche/indie MMOGs and would prefer to make my own, which is true, but unlike cooking, I don't know how to make games and it costs much more.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Here let me ask you one question: Do you have anything to back up the claim that WoW is not a good game besides your own opinion?
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
WoW is cheaper when compared to same-era MMOs because the system requirements are lower. People didn't have to upgrade their machines to play it as I (and others) did to play EQ2, SWG, E&B, etc. Sure, the subscription may cost the same, but you can play it on virtually any machine. I have a friend who has a 6 year old PC that has never been upgraded, and he plays WoW because that's the only recent big-name MMO that he can run on it.
I've also never seen so many people have their social and professional lives ruined by a game as I've seen with WoW. I could name a dozen people I know that have been negatively affected due to their inability to put the game down, from getting fired to losing a mate to losing custody of their children.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
I did not mention anything about quality. Just becuase a game is high quality doesnt mean it is "good". I could release a game with few bugs huge content but the gameplay could be awful. And the reviewers could still give it a 10 if they think the game to them is "fun." Everyone has theyre own definition of fun and you cant rely on reviews alone to give you a product you will like.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
There have been countless articles written about how McDonald's food is bad for your body. Hell there is a documentary on it called "Supersized". Its about your average joe eating pure McDonald's and seeing the changes in his body. It isnt pretty. The point is, is that even though people may say "well McDonald's is awsome and everyone eats there, it must be a great place!" is flawed cause YOU may not like it. Saying that 9 million players are "right" is bogus.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
No argument to back it up. Next.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Okay, my bad. Agreed, everyone has their own definition of fun. There are people who dislike something and think its bad, but thats human nature.
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I dont like country music, but I dont think its bad either. I dont like McDonald's but I dont think its bad food (quality wise). I dont like WoW, but I dont think its a good game. The argument that I was saying was that just because a vast majority of people do something doesnt make it "right" as referring to your previous post. Just because a vast majority of people play WoW doesnt make it right. What 9 million players mean is a large answer that is not solved by saying "WoW is a good game". That answer is way too simple for such a complex thing as an MMO.
MMO's are fun for various reasons: Gameplay, crafting, PvP, PvE, roleplaying etc and the biggest - socialization. WoW gets publicity. WoW appealed to a large BASE audience a la Warcraft 3. WoW was an easy game to play. Through this WoW was able to gain sucess. Through this socialization people invite their friends and so forth and all of these new people who havent even played a game before are playing WoW and an MMO for the first time. Many of them have not even tried another MMO and dont know if there is something better for them out there. See how complicated it gets? Ive seen alot of videos and know alot of people who play WoW and say that they do NOT ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. But they are stil addicited. Why? to the Level-Gear Acquisition syndrome. MMO companies use this tactict to keep people playing. People think "well if i get this piece of gear the game may become more fun" yet there is another patch right up the road and raises the gear even more, forcing people to stay.
So its alot more complicated than saying "9 million people are playing it and loving it" making it a great quality game. Its alot more complicated than that. Just becuase 7 million people are driving a Ford Focus doesnt necessarily make it a "good" product.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Yeah , while were at it....why not just throw out what the millions and millions of people ACTUALLY playing it think. Because OBVIOUSLy they only play it because of peer pressure ....they couldnt possibly, *gasp* like the game. And If they do like the game ....It has to be there first MMO ever .....I mean gawd, no self respecting veteran gamer would ever play WOW ............
/sarcasm off
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Yeah , while were at it....why not just throw out what the millions and millions of people ACTUALLY playing it think. Because OBVIOUSLy they only play it because of peer pressure ....they couldnt possibly, *gasp* like the game. And If they do like the game ....It has to be there first MMO ever .....I mean gawd, no self respecting veteran gamer would ever play WOW ............
/sarcasm off
Yeah and lets assume ALL of them LOVE playing it and take all of our arguments to the extreme. We couldnt possibly *gasp* say that some of them dont actually like it and are playing it for reasons other than actually liking it. I mean it isnt in human nature, we dont have those feelings, we just are robots and if we buy something we use it with a big fat smile on our faces.
/sarcasm off
mmm making me quite hungry.. I prefer Red Lobster tho.
my pic: http://world6.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=114247552
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
I did not mention anything about quality. Just becuase a game is high quality doesnt mean it is "good". I could release a game with few bugs huge content but the gameplay could be awful. And the reviewers could still give it a 10 if they think the game to them is "fun." Everyone has theyre own definition of fun and you cant rely on reviews alone to give you a product you will like.
A good game that is fun to play is high quality, because thats what you buy a game for, to be entertained. Ofcourse everyone has they're own definition of what is fun, but you should learn that just because YOU don't think its fun does not mean that is absolute fact.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
There have been countless articles written about how McDonald's food is bad for your body. Hell there is a documentary on it called "Supersized". Its about your average joe eating pure McDonald's and seeing the changes in his body. It isnt pretty. The point is, is that even though people may say "well McDonald's is awsome and everyone eats there, it must be a great place!" is flawed cause YOU may not like it. Saying that 9 million players are "right" is bogus.
I honnestly have never met anyone in my entire life that goes to McDonald's to eat healthy food. People go to McDonalds because they want fast, tasty food. Do you think Burger king is healthy? Ofcourse not. Do you think your local no-name fast food restaurant is healthy? Ofcourse not. McDonalds is doing good at what its supposed to do, just like WoW is doing good at what its supposed to do.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
No argument to back it up. Next.
Its called common sense. Next.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Okay, my bad. Agreed, everyone has their own definition of fun. There are people who dislike something and think its bad, but thats human nature.
I don't think its human nature, I think its just arrogance. Please keep in mind that I NEVER argued that just because a game is high rated, has many people playing, and is of high quality that you should actually like it. to give an example of my own, I'm a big fan of the Suikoden series, its a rather unknown series of console RPG's. I have to say that the suikoden serie is my favorite video game series, but you don't see me running around yelling "Suikoden is better then Final Fantasy! Final Fantasy sucks!" because I know the final fantasy series are better, I just happen to like another serie better.
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I dont like country music, but I dont think its bad either. I dont like McDonald's but I dont think its bad food (quality wise). I dont like WoW, but I dont think its a good game. The argument that I was saying was that just because a vast majority of people do something doesnt make it "right" as referring to your previous post. Just because a vast majority of people play WoW doesnt make it right. What 9 million players mean is a large answer that is not solved by saying "WoW is a good game". That answer is way too simple for such a complex thing as an MMO.
MMO's are fun for various reasons: Gameplay, crafting, PvP, PvE, roleplaying etc and the biggest - socialization. WoW gets publicity. WoW appealed to a large BASE audience a la Warcraft 3. WoW was an easy game to play. Through this WoW was able to gain sucess. Through this socialization people invite their friends and so forth and all of these new people who havent even played a game before are playing WoW and an MMO for the first time. Many of them have not even tried another MMO and dont know if there is something better for them out there. See how complicated it gets? Ive seen alot of videos and know alot of people who play WoW and say that they do NOT ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. But they are stil addicited. Why? to the Level-Gear Acquisition syndrome. MMO companies use this tactict to keep people playing. People think "well if i get this piece of gear the game may become more fun" yet there is another patch right up the road and raises the gear even more, forcing people to stay.
So its alot more complicated than saying "9 million people are playing it and loving it" making it a great quality game. Its alot more complicated than that. Just becuase 7 million people are driving a Ford Focus doesnt necessarily make it a "good" product.
Well there are a lot of veterans playing World of Warcraft, a lot of MMO's lost quite a few subscribers after WoW's release, but that really isn't my point. Final Fantasy is also a huge franchise and Squaresoft one of the most respect video game developers ever, yet Final Fantasy did not even come close to WoW's numbers. and look at games like Lineage and Lineage 2. those games are not based on any franchise, yet those managed to get a lot of subscribers. Ragnarok Online, same thing. Or how about Guild Wars? Sure, its free and all, but how many games can actually claim "We sold 3 million copies"? Not many. A famous franchise is not a pass for success.
I think this debate is pretty much pointless. the difference between you and me is that I don't think my opinion is fact.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Yeah , while were at it....why not just throw out what the millions and millions of people ACTUALLY playing it think. Because OBVIOUSLy they only play it because of peer pressure ....they couldnt possibly, *gasp* like the game. And If they do like the game ....It has to be there first MMO ever .....I mean gawd, no self respecting veteran gamer would ever play WOW ............
/sarcasm off
Yeah and lets assume ALL of them LOVE playing it and take all of our arguments to the extreme. We couldnt possibly *gasp* say that some of them dont actually like it and are playing it for reasons other than actually liking it. I mean it isnt in human nature, we dont have those feelings, we just are robots and if we buy something we use it with a big fat smile on our faces.
/sarcasm off
No instead, lets assume that the vast majority of them do not enjoy the game at all. I mean, everyone LOVES paying 15$ a month for something they don't enjoy.I don't think I even have to type sarcasm off here.
I guess thats why it gets so many awards and high score from critics, right?
Thats strange, because I can only mention a few MMO's that make a 360% turn in terms of gameplay after a few weeks, and WoW is not one of them. WoW can be reviewed. Also, since when does it matter if critics are dedicated to the MMO genre? Since when did MMO's deserve different treatment? MMO's aren't that different from online roleplaying games.
despite critism after TBC? What critism? I'm going to assume you mean critism from non proffesional critics, because proffesional critics are very satisifed with the Burning Crusade. www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928901.asp
the endgame is simply a timesink, its something that every MMO has since the days of Everquest.
You're completely correct. Lets ignore critics who's job it is to judge a game on a proffesional level. Instead, lets go to random forums and ask for the opinion of people who play video games only a few hours a day, the same people of which the vast majority is unable to see the difference between a bad game and a game that is not suited for them.
Yes, lets all blindly follow the reviews of a game! Ya know cause those reviewers know sooo much more than us. I mean really even though players have played it for years and those reviewers have only played it for much less, who cares? If a reviewer gives it a 8, everyone knows its an awsome game, even if the game sports boring grinding and gear based play. Mmm, yeah, sounds like fun!
/sarcasm off
Lets ignore 9 million players, lets ignore the fact the game has received better reviews and more awards then any other MMO, lets ignore the fact that its made by a company that is very well known to create AAA quality games. Nevermind that, they are all wrong, and you, random forum visitor who plays games a few hours a day, is correct.
/sarcasm off
They can judge a game all they want, but you shouldnt go with reviews alone. Reviews for MMO's in particular are flawed for more than one reason. Reviewers have a job to review a game, but how would they look if they gave WoW a five compared to other critics that gave higher scores? Reviews can come out when the game is released or slightly after and itsnt necessarily and accurate depeiction of the game. Relying on reviews by critics alone is not the way to go with any product.
Reviews are not a guarentee that you will LIKE a product, but it certainly says something about the quality of the product, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that all of those hundreds of reviewers who's job it is to review as a proffesion are all wrong.
I did not mention anything about quality. Just becuase a game is high quality doesnt mean it is "good". I could release a game with few bugs huge content but the gameplay could be awful. And the reviewers could still give it a 10 if they think the game to them is "fun." Everyone has theyre own definition of fun and you cant rely on reviews alone to give you a product you will like.
A good game that is fun to play is high quality, because thats what you buy a game for, to be entertained. Ofcourse everyone has they're own definition of what is fun, but you should learn that just because YOU don't think its fun does not mean that is absolute fact.
Of course not. But my point is - and I'll repeat it - Just because reviewers give the game a high score doesnt make it a "good" game. As much as theyre critics and its theyre job to do so, many times game reviews are subjectory. You pretty much agree with me on this with your reply. So we actually agree - your just contradicting your previous statement. Either people have their own definitions of fun, or reviewers know everything. Hopefully you'll go for the former.
The "how can 9 million players be wrong" argument that has been used *countless* times is totally flawed. Just using the McDonald's argument easily counters it - so 9 million people that eat McDonald's everyday are right and we're wrong? Just because a whole group of people do something doesnt mean its right. So youre saying that all the people back in the 60's that did drugs were right?
And whoever said that McDonalds is a bad fast food restaurant? Just because YOU don't like the food does not mean that its bad. Many people DO enjoy McDonalds fast food. And I'm sorry, did you just try to compare the quality of a product to an addiction? I'm going to assume you're more inteligent then that. I must have misread that.
There have been countless articles written about how McDonald's food is bad for your body. Hell there is a documentary on it called "Supersized". Its about your average joe eating pure McDonald's and seeing the changes in his body. It isnt pretty. The point is, is that even though people may say "well McDonald's is awsome and everyone eats there, it must be a great place!" is flawed cause YOU may not like it. Saying that 9 million players are "right" is bogus.
I honnestly have never met anyone in my entire life that goes to McDonald's to eat healthy food. People go to McDonalds because they want fast, tasty food. Do you think Burger king is healthy? Ofcourse not. Do you think your local no-name fast food restaurant is healthy? Ofcourse not. McDonalds is doing good at what its supposed to do, just like WoW is doing good at what its supposed to do.
Just because McDonald's is *supposed* to get you fat doesnt make it right. Thats twisted logic. Even though people go to play WoW cause its the place to go doesnt mean that its necessarily a good game.
I mean, really, since all the Germans in WWII were following Hitlers orders to exterminate the Jews - I mean a whole COUNTRY was following him, I guess that makes it right ( /sarcasm off)
I'm not even going to begin to describe why this comparisson is so incredbly invalid. I could write a book about it.
No argument to back it up. Next.
Its called common sense. Next.
Oh uh. And again nothing to back it up...lol.
Oh and btw most people *do* know what is right for them, referring to what is highlighted in red. Im sure they know themselves plenty more than you do, since all youre seeing are words on a screen. That statement is so full of crap I could fill a bucket with it.
Thats actually exactly what I said. Most people who know what is right and wrong for them. The problem is that those people think that its actually fact. everything that is wrong for them is bad.
Okay, my bad. Agreed, everyone has their own definition of fun. There are people who dislike something and think its bad, but thats human nature.
I don't think its human nature, I think its just arrogance. Please keep in mind that I NEVER argued that just because a game is high rated, has many people playing, and is of high quality that you should actually like it. to give an example of my own, I'm a big fan of the Suikoden series, its a rather unknown series of console RPG's. I have to say that the suikoden serie is my favorite video game series, but you don't see me running around yelling "Suikoden is better then Final Fantasy! Final Fantasy sucks!" because I know the final fantasy series are better, I just happen to like another serie better.
Human nature = arrogance
Btw on a side note Im actually a big big fan of Suikoden especially the first 2 games, they have a special place to my heart. Surprised to meet one here, not many of us out there, least that I know. (compared to FF)
But keep on saying that WoW is a great game and we dont know anything. Not like its going to get you anywhere. After all, things do change. Most people arent smoking weed and cocaine at every back alley you turn to now.
Please keep deluding yourself that your opinion is fact. the music that you don't like MUST be bad. the TV show that you don't like MUST be bad. the books you don't enjoy reading MUST be bad, right?
I dont like country music, but I dont think its bad either. I dont like McDonald's but I dont think its bad food (quality wise). I dont like WoW, but I dont think its a good game. The argument that I was saying was that just because a vast majority of people do something doesnt make it "right" as referring to your previous post. Just because a vast majority of people play WoW doesnt make it right. What 9 million players mean is a large answer that is not solved by saying "WoW is a good game". That answer is way too simple for such a complex thing as an MMO.
MMO's are fun for various reasons: Gameplay, crafting, PvP, PvE, roleplaying etc and the biggest - socialization. WoW gets publicity. WoW appealed to a large BASE audience a la Warcraft 3. WoW was an easy game to play. Through this WoW was able to gain sucess. Through this socialization people invite their friends and so forth and all of these new people who havent even played a game before are playing WoW and an MMO for the first time. Many of them have not even tried another MMO and dont know if there is something better for them out there. See how complicated it gets? Ive seen alot of videos and know alot of people who play WoW and say that they do NOT ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. But they are stil addicited. Why? to the Level-Gear Acquisition syndrome. MMO companies use this tactict to keep people playing. People think "well if i get this piece of gear the game may become more fun" yet there is another patch right up the road and raises the gear even more, forcing people to stay.
So its alot more complicated than saying "9 million people are playing it and loving it" making it a great quality game. Its alot more complicated than that. Just becuase 7 million people are driving a Ford Focus doesnt necessarily make it a "good" product.
Well there are a lot of veterans playing World of Warcraft, a lot of MMO's lost quite a few subscribers after WoW's release, but that really isn't my point. Final Fantasy is also a huge franchise and Squaresoft one of the most respect video game developers ever, yet Final Fantasy did not even come close to WoW's numbers. and look at games like Lineage and Lineage 2. those games are not based on any franchise, yet those managed to get a lot of subscribers. Ragnarok Online, same thing. Or how about Guild Wars? Sure, its free and all, but how many games can actually claim "We sold 3 million copies"? Not many. A famous franchise is not a pass for success.
Well of course look at all the countless movie games that come out - most of them are crap. Again you end it with the absolute statement. A famous franchise is indeed not a pass for success but in WoW's case it helped alot. World of Wacraft was one of the first (if not THE first) MMO with a refined gaming PC company to come out with an existing franchise and take advantage of a tried and true method for MMO's. A famous franchise is not a pass for success, but combined with the right ingrediants (in WoW's case a perfectionist company, money to back them up, time and the EQ model) , can be very powerful. Take a look at WAR, the fanbase must be huge compared to other starting games just because of the fact that its based on Warhammer yet has nothing to do with the tabletop game.
I think this debate is pretty much pointless. the difference between you and me is that I don't think my opinion is fact.
Ohhhhh please. Haha. Dont give me that, do I need to cut and paste "IMO" between every single paragraph? Of course I dont think my opinion is fact, my opinion is my opinion. What makes this debate important is the fact that it offers different viewpoints to different people.
The real difference between me and you is that you make absolutes: saying that 8 million players are right and everyone else is wrong, saying that a famous franchise is not a pass for success, saying that reviewers are right and thats it (hah!) saying that the world is black and white; when there are really shades of grey.
Im sure you'll disagree with me again, so Im afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
Nice debating Gameloading. I enjoyed it.
The hate for WoW is off the chart here, so much crap being spouted by uninformed bored no-lifers its amazing.
If MMO's where drinking establishments
EQ2 - a posh wine bar full of tight asses talking about how much better they are than other people
WoW - a back street pub full of colourful characters, a fun atmosphere and free drinks for every 1
EvE - a dark night club, 1 or 2 people on the dance floor, a few sat around the edges.. not much going on
VGSoH - a new hip club set up by an 80 year old who had a dream, retro 70 style wall paper and "the monkeys" playing on the juke box.
I declare Everquest(s) Hardee's.
attempts to compete with McDonald's and fails, except for a smaller base that likes it.
lets see Hardee's is US based, so you could say you only know about everquest(and friends) if you play MMO's.
Hardee's constantly claims to have better food even going so far to convince their customers to say so, well there's everquest for you.
It's still fast food, everquest follows the typical bash monsters head in design.
edit:
Hardee's is also famous for their food getting worse and worse.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
If MMO's were MMORPG's they might be a lot better. Perhaps to save a few extra key strokes people may type MMO's, however I feel as though we are moving more towards MMOAG, Massive MultiPlayer Action Games.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
The game is great and sells itself.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Well, I believe they are ALL like fast food resturaunts. Little substance, but a great fix.