No doubt it is impressive. But how many of those 9 million accounts are still playing the game?
The accounts are - for the 100th time - ACTIVE.
That shows that the gaming community no longer cares about challenges and game play. Its all about gear and pretending your skilled becuase you have much better gear then the guy you just killed.
Said it before and Ill say it again, WOW is for people who always play there games on easy mode.
Are you going to explain you how think it shows that the gaming community no longer cares about challenges and gameplay? Because that leap in logic is quite amazing, you must be thinking on a much higher plane of consciousness than me, please explain it so us lowly WoW players can understand.
Oh and btw, In PvP I can beat players of the same class with better gear than me. It means I am better than them. That's called skill.
Calling WoW easy mode is taking the "easy mode" argument of criticism. You're welcome to debate why you think other MMOs require more skill, but I'm afraid there are compelling logical arguments suggesting otherwise.
I'd love to hear how you think your favourite MMO requires more 'skill'. I'll make myself a cup of tea while you explain it, mmk?
Ive explained it in many a post, check out the Why wow is 30% of EQ2 post in the ep2 forums. While io disagree with that statement I go into further detail
Fanboi dont get mad, im sure your beleive wow is an incredibly indepth game with TONS of options and challenging gameplay. The truth is its ALL about time spent, thats all. Spend 10 minutes on your new char, Ill have my 7 year old nephew who playes WOW duel you with his char he spent months on yet he stinks at pvp. Who will win? Thank you I rest my case
In an effort to promote diversity of posting, so that those with a short attention span aren't put off by boring things like logic and reason, I shall deliver my response EMOTE STYLE. (Not to be confused with Emo style which would be like; ohh.. like... WoW has no depth... I like corpse runs and camping one place for weeks on end)
Here we go:
/ignores "fanboi don't get mad" childish taunt
/sarcastically glosses over the sarcastic inferrence that WoW has no depth. Because as we all know: gate camping and longer levels = depth.
/Turns nose up at the notion that WoW doesn't have "options", with the inferrence that other MMOs have tons more (that aren't just fluff)
/ignores "duel my high level character with your low level character challenge", because it's entirely irrelevant and proves nothing either way, except that the poster doesn't make a very convincing argument.
/casts Silence, Mana Burn, Fear, Mind Blast, Mind Flay and finishes his better equipped opponent off with his staff.
/hug
Ahhh I love a guy who assumes, we all know what that means right??
Even the people who play WOW usually admit the game lacks any real depth, now did I say longer levels and gate camping = depth? No, dont assume for the sake of not making a fool of yourself.
Yes, other MMO's have MANY more options that arent fluff. Hell at least I have more then I can count on one hand for any given class. How bout not restrcting my class to a race? How abotu giving REAL options on character building, cmon guy dont take fanboi to the next level please.
bottom line is this, make a new char, work on him for a few days, duel my 7 year old nephew who has a lvl 70 yet SUCKS at the game (since maxing, like everythign else in this game has nothing to do with skill) and lets see who wins. If you win, I will apologize for thinking this game is level and gear based
Cant can ya? Thought so.....
Can't be bothered to play a toon for several days to prove your flawed argument? Why don't you spend time creating a character and fight me as a punishment for your logical ineptitude? You don't fight people 20 levels higher than you in WoW anyway, you fight people in your level range, mmmk? In the battlegrounds, if you stay near the level cap, you'll meet most people near the level cap = fairer and skillful fights. If you want completely fair fights then noone should have any gear, there should be no classes and everyone should be at the same level - you might as well play counterstrike. Fighting people weaker and stronger than you - and beating them, or losing against them in unpredictable odds = a more interesting PvP game.
And WoW has options, they're called talent points. And they're better than the 'fluff' options other MMOs give you just to add fake 'depth'. You can also specialize your gear to be better at things such as support, or dps, or burst dps, or long-term dps. Just because you lack imagination, doesn't mean the game lacks depth. Those are real options. Holy priest is completely different to shadow priest, and both are real options. You can't do everything with one spec, that's whats the beauty of the system is - you have to make a choice.
Other games let you do everything with their specialization, only you can do one thing just a little better. That's fluff, and why World of Warcraft's talent system is brilliant. Even EQ2 made a similar system - but didn't have the balls for each AA tree to make a real difference to your character. It's just fluff.
WoW = antifluff, good character specialization.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I've not read the whole thread but their appears to be a bit of discussion about pvp here.
After deciding to play WoW for a bit just for the fact that if you are in this hobby it is daft not to try it at least once, I've found that the game is very item centric.
However this does not necessarily mean that the player with the best gear must win, sure it makes a difference and puts the odds in his/her favour but there is always someone that is gonna come along and think hard enough about things to find the chink in that "ubah dude's" set-up. Or a person who will come along and take the risk to break the cookie-cutter mould to try a new setup that works.
Ever wonder why some of the best pvp-ers on your server are the best pvp-ers? It is not just because they have farmed the best gear, but also because they know which attacks/spells/items to use against which profession and when. However, granted WoW is not devoid of user skill, it does, still, favour those with the best gear.
NoMMO is exactly rocket science and it all depends on how easy/hard you the player want to make it. If the items had been attribute locked rather than lvl locked I might have stuck around, but it's not for me. Good game for those that like it, of this I have no doubt.
In all reality there are probably only half that many actually playing on a semi-regular basis.
That might be true, you don't know the numbers for sure though; perhaps its more, perhaps it's less. You're just guessing.
Whether your guess is accurate or not, the same applies to any MMO that releases subscriber numbers, thus the point about who is actually playing on a somewhat arbitrary "semi-regular basis" is redundant.
(In other words there was no point to what you posted.)
Actually L2 has more subs then WoW. WoW beats all others in US subs and US subs only. Worldwide L2 is number one, in EU and Asia (mostly asia) L2 is still king. The bulk of WoW's subs don't even come from the US either, it's Asia.
Not that it matters. As someone else pointed out. Money is money, who cares where or how they get it.
It is impressive. The way that game is design its fun and easy to play. It takes all the best elements of all the old MMOs and and simplifies it. It worked. At the expense of the depth of the gameplay.
------------------------------------ Playing: Age of Conan Trial (trying to at least) Played: Runescape, WoW, FFXI, Fury Tried: LotRO, EVE, CoV, PotCO
I've not read the whole thread but their appears to be a bit of discussion about pvp here. After deciding to play WoW for a bit just for the fact that if you are in this hobby it is daft not to try it at least once, I've found that the game is very item centric. However this does not necessarily mean that the player with the best gear must win, sure it makes a difference and puts the odds in his/her favour but there is always someone that is gonna come along and think hard enough about things to find the chink in that "ubah dude's" set-up. Or a person who will come along and take the risk to break the cookie-cutter mould to try a new setup that works. Ever wonder why some of the best pvp-ers on your server are the best pvp-ers? It is not just because they have farmed the best gear, but also because they know which attacks/spells/items to use against which profession and when. However, granted WoW is not devoid of user skill, it does, still, favour those with the best gear. NoMMO is exactly rocket science and it all depends on how easy/hard you the player want to make it. If the items had been attribute locked rather than lvl locked I might have stuck around, but it's not for me. Good game for those that like it, of this I have no doubt.
Very well said. Im aware I was being very extreme. Ofcourse there is SOME skill involved. I mean im sure peopel that are the same exact level with veyr similiar gear fight, skill will win. I ment to say this game is based around items and gear AND level. IF your level 10 fights my 7 year old nephews lvl 70, I dont care how much skill u have you lose.
No game is perfetc I just see WOW as a very good game for kids or a starter mmo. Or maybe even just an mmo made for people who arent good at hard mmo's that are ksill-based. Nothign wrong with playing a game in easy mode
Just because it doesn't have tons of fluff that has little to no effect on gameplay, doesn't mean it lacks depth?
I could understand saying EVE has more depth, but that's only because of the territorial control. Very few MMOs are deeper than WoW, but if you know of one, I'd love to hear why you think it has depth - chances are it's probably not depth at all, but something else.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
In what ways does it lack depth? Just because it doesn't have tons of fluff that has little to no effect on gameplay, doesn't mean it lacks depth? I could understand saying EVE has more depth, but that's only because of the territorial control. Very few MMOs are deeper than WoW, but if you know of one, I'd love to hear why you think it has depth - chances are it's probably not depth at all, but something else.
You level up to max level then raid dungeons that have a historical significance in the story. And that's it. That's also known as shallow gameplay. No missions like in FFXI, no territory or large scale group control like EVE, no solid PvP like UO. World of Warcraft's simplicity is it's greatest strength. Did you know Counter-Strike, REGULAR counter-strike is the #1 played game beside WoW? The game wasn't even made as a retail game, it was a free modification for half-life. It is very simple, easy to pick up and plays on crappy computers (which make up the majority of people on computers). People feel the need to brag about WoW subscriptions but it was really just a snowball effect. It will perish and another game will have the same thing.
Even when I still played, everyday I contemplated quitting and then looking at the sub number is what kept me in. It's the same for many. You think about quitting then think half of the cosmos is playing it and then say to heck with it, I'll just stay. It's a shame really. More people need to realize that Sci-Fi > Fantasy so we can make the market more diverse.
In what ways does it lack depth? Just because it doesn't have tons of fluff that has little to no effect on gameplay, doesn't mean it lacks depth? I could understand saying EVE has more depth, but that's only because of the territorial control. Very few MMOs are deeper than WoW, but if you know of one, I'd love to hear why you think it has depth - chances are it's probably not depth at all, but something else.
You level up to max level then raid dungeons that have a historical significance in the story. And that's it. That's also known as shallow gameplay. No missions like in FFXI, no territory or large scale group control like EVE, no solid PvP like UO. World of Warcraft's simplicity is it's greatest strength. Did you know Counter-Strike, REGULAR counter-strike is the #1 played game beside WoW? The game wasn't even made as a retail game, it was a free modification for half-life. It is very simple, easy to pick up and plays on crappy computers (which make up the majority of people on computers). People feel the need to brag about WoW subscriptions but it was really just a snowball effect. It will perish and another game will have the same thing.
Even when I still played, everyday I contemplated quitting and then looking at the sub number is what kept me in. It's the same for many. You think about quitting then think half of the cosmos is playing it and then say to heck with it, I'll just stay. It's a shame really. More people need to realize that Sci-Fi > Fantasy so we can make the market more diverse.
Thank you for explaining to this guy what lack of depth means, he just didnt seem to get it
Its simplicity can be a very great thing which is why I think its a great game for kids and newbies (not ment as an insult)
I don't think OGJackson meant any illwill by hils question. While the game is very impressive and is definately much more successful than any other MMOG to date. I still have a hard time believing that those 9 million are active. I counted 222 servers on WoW realm status area.. possibly I could have missed a few. I was blown away that they actually have that many servers. I haven't play WoW in quite some time myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think approximately 4000 players on at one time is pretty much the max, of course I doubt all servers are running the max every night.
Lets just play around with the numbers for shits and grins. 222x4000=888,000. That i's a very impressive number.. in fact pretty much amazing. If they have 9 million active accounts.. wouldn't you think it would take many more servers running 24/7 to handle this many people? I'm not saying it's impossible because there are so many variants ie...it's a world wide game and since it's a very casual game. I believe there are millions of people who do play it casually. I'm sure someone will flame, but I'm not bashing the game. In it's own way it's a fantastic game, it just couldn't keep my attention past the 3 months I played after release.
Draenor Server Ratio Onlive Friday Night - 11,000 + Alliance, 3,500 Horde. One server.
Retired Max LvL and Raiding for - EQ - DAoC - Dungeon Runners - WoW - LoTR:Online - GW/All Expansions - CoH/V - SWG *** Currently Playing EQ2 *** Awaiting - PoTBS!
In what ways does it lack depth? Just because it doesn't have tons of fluff that has little to no effect on gameplay, doesn't mean it lacks depth? I could understand saying EVE has more depth, but that's only because of the territorial control. Very few MMOs are deeper than WoW, but if you know of one, I'd love to hear why you think it has depth - chances are it's probably not depth at all, but something else.
You level up to max level then raid dungeons that have a historical significance in the story. And that's it. That's also known as shallow gameplay. No missions like in FFXI, no territory or large scale group control like EVE, no solid PvP like UO. World of Warcraft's simplicity is it's greatest strength. Did you know Counter-Strike, REGULAR counter-strike is the #1 played game beside WoW? The game wasn't even made as a retail game, it was a free modification for half-life. It is very simple, easy to pick up and plays on crappy computers (which make up the majority of people on computers). People feel the need to brag about WoW subscriptions but it was really just a snowball effect. It will perish and another game will have the same thing.
Even when I still played, everyday I contemplated quitting and then looking at the sub number is what kept me in. It's the same for many. You think about quitting then think half of the cosmos is playing it and then say to heck with it, I'll just stay. It's a shame really. More people need to realize that Sci-Fi > Fantasy so we can make the market more diverse.
Thank you for explaining to this guy what lack of depth means, he just didnt seem to get it
Its simplicity can be a very great thing which is why I think its a great game for kids and newbies (not ment as an insult)
It's funny.
It's simplicity can also have a kind of negetive effect as well.
I've been trying for over a year to get a friend of mine to play another MMO with me. He's tried several others and every time he quits after a few days and goes back to WoW. Why? In his words, "they're to hard to level." No joke, he thinks other MMO's are hard. He doesn't like leveling, he doesn't care about questing, he doesn't care about tradeskills, he just wants to log in and play.
This is a guy that levelled his first 60 by just grinding mobs. When they made xp quests give gold instead of xp at max level, he still had every quest that would give xp to do.
I hear ya man. The funny thing is that WoW isn't even THAT easy. It takes 2-4 months to get to max level so that you can actually play the game, and the max level is easier than pretty much any game out there since there is nothing except commitment to getting better gear (which never ends btw). The leveling is just like any other game really, except Lineage which I'd say is undeniably longer and more difficult. People need to wake up. I really hope the next generation of MMO's can enlighten people. Just looking at WoW screenshots after not playing for 4 months makes me really question how myself and others got so addicted. I guess it just happens. SCI-FI FTW.
^ I hear ya man. The funny thing is that WoW isn't even THAT easy. It takes 2-4 months to get to max level so that you can actually play the game, and the max level is easier than pretty much any game out there since there is nothing except commitment to getting better gear (which never ends btw). The leveling is just like any other game really, except Lineage which I'd say is undeniably longer and more difficult. People need to wake up. I really hope the next generation of MMO's can enlighten people. Just looking at WoW screenshots after not playing for 4 months makes me really question how myself and others got so addicted. I guess it just happens. SCI-FI FTW.
L2 he actually stuck with for almost a month. He prefers to grind mobs, and I thought L2 would be perfect for him.
Unfortunetly the economy, and death penalty did him in.
He didn't like losing xp when he died, and when it came time to get new gear he realized that you actually have to work for it.
His words, "I don't like risk, and I shouldn't have to earn gear in a game."
God I hate this game, and I hate that I keep going back to it just so I can play with him.
It's hard not to play something that people you know in real life are playing, and pretty much everyone I've played with in game actually plays with people they know in thier personall life. Hell, two people I know got divorced and now the ex-wife is dating a guild mate.
Ok when I played SWG which was before wow the only way to level was by grinding countless beasts, npcs and what not, cant say it was fun, but I did it to achieve my goals, and than when I finally did that I started pvping, and played my master armorsmith alt and got resources. Some of you would consider this hard where as in wow its very simple. I really dont get that, in WoW leveling is FUN, most of the quests not all are fun to do, they have a story which they show, you get rewards + xp and you have fun doing it. So yes some other MMOs may be considered harder because you do quests that arent fun or have to farm the same mobs till you level so leveling in them simply sucks, and you hate it but dont want to say anything because you consider it hard, and dont want to do it allover again because its a boring grind where as in WoW the grind can be somewhat entertaining, with rewards etc.
WoW hasnt ruined anything for me or anyone else who plays it, simply other MMOs dont satisfy some players the way WoW does, thats why they come back to it, they dont come back because they love Blizzard. People however are quick to point their fingers at wow and say that it ruined MMOs for people, that to me doesnt make any sense. Leveling in WoW may not be too difficult, because it is fun, you wouldnt mind doing this series of quests because in the end you will be rewarded and you will reveal some of the story of the game, simply the game is well put together.
Any MMO out there ISNT hard, it may be harder than your previous MMO but it ISNT hard, all you need is Time + the patience required, in some peoples cases the so called "hard" MMOs where quests are Bugged/not worth it or you simply find that a faster way to level is to kill the same godamn npcs in the same area till you achieve your goal.
In every thread I read people say x game is hard and wow is carebear its some game that is bugged or you need to isolate your self from the real world for months and months till you level. Americans are busy people, we work we go to school and we like to spend time with our loved ones, no one wants to sit infront of the computer starring at one animal and kill it over and over till you ding. We want rewards, we want entertainment, we want to have fun, and like change.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC -Playing WoW -Retired- SWG -Retired- EVE -Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled) - 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
Load of bollocks really. You guys wouldn't know depth if it slapped you in the face. Just because other MMOs dilute content with time, doesn't make them deeper, it just makes them take longer to do the content. WoW doesn't insult your intelligence (as much) as other MMOs with fake depth.
Doesn't make WoW easier either. Time != difficulty. So FF has missions, WoW has the battlegrounds. EVE has terroritorial control, WoW has PvP you can engage in constantly. UO has 'solid PvP', pre-EA - maybe. But that's a long dead game.
So where's the depth? You show me depth I show you misconception.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
And stop saying WoW is easy. Because I find other MMOs no more difficult to play. In fact their slow pace makes it even easier than WoW because you have time to think. Just because WoW's PvP is quick paced, and you don't have time to think, doesn't mean other aren't thinking faster and better than you are.
WoW's raids are great as well, as good as EQ1 raids - but manageable so you don't need to play 8 hours a day like we used to do in EQ1. Did EQ1 have more depth? No. It just took longer.
Taking longer doesn't make things deeper, it just means your exp bar is slower, and you have to hit the 1 key a few more times per mob. Even WoW's crowd control has more options than most other MMOs. That's depth right there.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
No doubt it is impressive. But how many of those 9 million accounts are still playing the game?
The accounts are - for the 100th time - ACTIVE.
I don't think OGJackson meant any illwill by hils question. While the game is very impressive and is definately much more successful than any other MMOG to date. I still have a hard time believing that those 9 million are active. I counted 222 servers on WoW realm status area.. possibly I could have missed a few. I was blown away that they actually have that many servers. I haven't play WoW in quite some time myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think approximately 4000 players on at one time is pretty much the max, of course I doubt all servers are running the max every night.
Lets just play around with the numbers for shits and grins. 222x4000=888,000. That i's a very impressive number.. in fact pretty much amazing. If they have 9 million active accounts.. wouldn't you think it would take many more servers running 24/7 to handle this many people? I'm not saying it's impossible because there are so many variants ie...it's a world wide game and since it's a very casual game. I believe there are millions of people who do play it casually.
I'm sure someone will flame, but I'm not bashing the game. In it's own way it's a fantastic game, it just couldn't keep my attention past the 3 months I played after release.
I've seen someone with this disease before. No matter what you tell him, you can't persuade him. Have you ever tired to tell a BMW fan that Ferrari makes better and faster cars? Yeah, so I'm just going to ignore your post to save this board from having an unintelligent e-battle of mass MMO proportions.
They count EVERY SINGLE account in China / Taiwan / Korea as "Active" because you cannot "close" an account, you simply stop playing and you get billed by the amount of time you played that month which happens to be $0.00 in most cases. Also it costs no initial fee to open a WoW account in these countries and they stay open indefinitely, its very common to have two, three, or more accounts per person and they don't actually "play" a single one of them. Not to mention gold sellers!
Oh come on, you haven't even made a decent argument yet. I've given you solid arguments of why WoW is deeper, you think I'm being a fanboy? Come on, use your brain and tell me why WoW is so much less deeper than other MMOs?
You can't simply say "because it is." That doesn't work.
Well maybe it does for politicians but...
I give good arguments, you guys just say "it sucks". I explain why time isn't depth, and you guys have NOTHING to come back with. As far as I'm concerned, you guys have applied no reason to any of your criticisms.
Engage your brains for a change, and absorb this simple fact you all appear to misunderstand:
TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DIFFICULTY OR 'DEPTH', IT'S HOW CONTENT IS DILUTED.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I've seen someone with this disease before. No matter what you tell him, you can't persuade him. Have you ever tired to tell a BMW fan that Ferrari makes better and faster cars? Yeah, so I'm just going to ignore your post to save this board from having an unintelligent e-battle of mass MMO proportions.
Typical attack against the poster. Attack the argument, not the poster. That's the only way you'll ever convince anyone of anything in this world.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
There are a small handful of mmo's that are MUCH harder and arent based solely on time put in and more based on skill.
If you are a good skilled player who understand your class/build it is obvious that you will level faster because you will kill faster and will die less, and I never said that skill doesnt play a factor, it seems to me that you 1. Didnt read my post or 2. Didnt understand it. And I was never bashing any game about not requiring skill, I dont know how I need experience to make my post more clear lol.
I really dont see how what you said comes from a high experienced person lol, you just stated the obvious.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC -Playing WoW -Retired- SWG -Retired- EVE -Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled) - 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
Load of bollocks really. You guys wouldn't know depth if it slapped you in the face. Just because other MMOs dilute content with time, doesn't make them deeper, it just makes them take longer to do the content. WoW doesn't insult your intelligence (as much) as other MMOs with fake depth. Doesn't make WoW easier either. Time != difficulty. So FF has missions, WoW has the battlegrounds. EVE has terroritorial control, WoW has PvP you can engage in constantly. UO has 'solid PvP', pre-EA - maybe. But that's a long dead game. So where's the depth? You show me depth I show you misconception.
I would call depth gameplay mechanics. WoW has one mechanic, combat. It does it very well, but it doesn't do anything else.
No mounted combat.
No ownership outside of gear, and passive pets.
No controllable territories.
No guild functionality other then raiding.
No social mechanics other then raiding.
EQ2 is exactly like WoW, and has a ton more depth.
Scripted encounters isn't depth. And when you can use a mod that tells you exactly when a mob is going to do something that's EASY. Only thing hard about raiding is getting people to show up on time, and do what they are supposed to do when they're supposed to do it.
When you want to do an instance you need: One healer (preferably a priest) One crowd control (preferably a mage) one tank (preferably a warrior) and any two dps (preferably a hunter and a warlock) There isn't diversity in groups and that means no depth there.
Some games don't have strict group setups. CoH has multiple classes within each archtype. Multiple DPS, multiple tanks, multiple healers, multiple crowd controll classes; that's depth.
Believe it or not, housing is depth. Anything that you can do outside of combat is depth.
So um. Outside of combat, what can you do in WoW? Proffesions. Yeah. Select recipe, select number of items you want, click create, and wait. EQ2 actually makes you craft an item at a time and has some amount of involvement in the process, VG the same.
Really, outside of combat, what can you do in WoW?
Edit: WoW really only has seasonal events, aside from that events are far and few between. Other games have GM run events that happen often. That's depth that WoW also lacks. Especially when they do the exact same seasonal event at the exact same time of year, every year.
Edit: L2 has more depth then WoW, and that games pretty frigin linear.
Oh come on, you haven't even made a decent argument yet. I've given you solid arguments of why WoW is deeper, you think I'm being a fanboy? Come on, use your brain and tell me why WoW is so much less deeper than other MMOs? You can't simply say "because it is." That doesn't work. Well maybe it does for politicians but...
I give good arguments, you guys just say "it sucks". I explain why time isn't depth, and you guys have NOTHING to come back with. As far as I'm concerned, you guys have applied no reason to any of your criticisms. Engage your brains for a change, and absorb this simple fact you all appear to misunderstand: TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DIFFICULTY OR 'DEPTH', IT'S HOW CONTENT IS DILUTED.
There is no point trying to convince people who hate wow, MMORPG.com is very against WoW from what I have noticed and a good chunk of the haters are even WoW vets which to me thats being a hypocrite, but the saddest part of it all is how these people are such a minority compared to people who love wow and they feel special because of it, they feel as if they are elite players, heroes of the genre, and wow has came and destroyed the genre.
Once again the only explanation people give for hating wow is 1 too many kids (theres alot more adults if you cared to look and find a decent guild) and 2 its too easy, because apparently the game is full of content and quests that will level you from 1 - 70 without having to countlessly kill worthless animals for some xp, and 3 there is no skill involved, and whoever said this I dont think that they even bothered to play the end game or the social aspect of the game. Not much skill is needed to level, but to be an effective player in a group, guild, raid and pvp you DO need skill. If you say otherwise than you didnt even play the end game stuff, if that was the case than there wouldnt be succesful guilds in wow, there wouldnt be good pvpers who are known to be good, and there wouldnt be such things as a good healer, or a good tank who keeps their party alive by doing a good job managing agro, and being able to keep their healer from dying due to agro. I have grouped and played with people who suck mostly pugs, and have pvped with people who use their classes abilities for each situation and the end result is success and have played with people who play healer classes and dont bother to heal. PLease of you say something sucks give an educated post, and list how it is so instead of just saying it sucks, that really doesnt say much, other than an opinion that doesnt count.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC -Playing WoW -Retired- SWG -Retired- EVE -Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled) - 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
Comments
The accounts are - for the 100th time - ACTIVE.
That shows that the gaming community no longer cares about challenges and game play. Its all about gear and pretending your skilled becuase you have much better gear then the guy you just killed.Said it before and Ill say it again, WOW is for people who always play there games on easy mode.
Are you going to explain you how think it shows that the gaming community no longer cares about challenges and gameplay? Because that leap in logic is quite amazing, you must be thinking on a much higher plane of consciousness than me, please explain it so us lowly WoW players can understand.
Oh and btw, In PvP I can beat players of the same class with better gear than me. It means I am better than them. That's called skill.
Calling WoW easy mode is taking the "easy mode" argument of criticism. You're welcome to debate why you think other MMOs require more skill, but I'm afraid there are compelling logical arguments suggesting otherwise.
I'd love to hear how you think your favourite MMO requires more 'skill'. I'll make myself a cup of tea while you explain it, mmk?
Ive explained it in many a post, check out the Why wow is 30% of EQ2 post in the ep2 forums. While io disagree with that statement I go into further detailFanboi dont get mad, im sure your beleive wow is an incredibly indepth game with TONS of options and challenging gameplay. The truth is its ALL about time spent, thats all. Spend 10 minutes on your new char, Ill have my 7 year old nephew who playes WOW duel you with his char he spent months on yet he stinks at pvp. Who will win? Thank you I rest my case
In an effort to promote diversity of posting, so that those with a short attention span aren't put off by boring things like logic and reason, I shall deliver my response EMOTE STYLE. (Not to be confused with Emo style which would be like; ohh.. like... WoW has no depth... I like corpse runs and camping one place for weeks on end)
Here we go:
/ignores "fanboi don't get mad" childish taunt
/sarcastically glosses over the sarcastic inferrence that WoW has no depth. Because as we all know: gate camping and longer levels = depth.
/Turns nose up at the notion that WoW doesn't have "options", with the inferrence that other MMOs have tons more (that aren't just fluff)
/ignores "duel my high level character with your low level character challenge", because it's entirely irrelevant and proves nothing either way, except that the poster doesn't make a very convincing argument.
/casts Silence, Mana Burn, Fear, Mind Blast, Mind Flay and finishes his better equipped opponent off with his staff.
/hug
Ahhh I love a guy who assumes, we all know what that means right??Even the people who play WOW usually admit the game lacks any real depth, now did I say longer levels and gate camping = depth? No, dont assume for the sake of not making a fool of yourself.
Yes, other MMO's have MANY more options that arent fluff. Hell at least I have more then I can count on one hand for any given class. How bout not restrcting my class to a race? How abotu giving REAL options on character building, cmon guy dont take fanboi to the next level please.
bottom line is this, make a new char, work on him for a few days, duel my 7 year old nephew who has a lvl 70 yet SUCKS at the game (since maxing, like everythign else in this game has nothing to do with skill) and lets see who wins. If you win, I will apologize for thinking this game is level and gear based
Cant can ya? Thought so.....
Can't be bothered to play a toon for several days to prove your flawed argument? Why don't you spend time creating a character and fight me as a punishment for your logical ineptitude? You don't fight people 20 levels higher than you in WoW anyway, you fight people in your level range, mmmk? In the battlegrounds, if you stay near the level cap, you'll meet most people near the level cap = fairer and skillful fights. If you want completely fair fights then noone should have any gear, there should be no classes and everyone should be at the same level - you might as well play counterstrike. Fighting people weaker and stronger than you - and beating them, or losing against them in unpredictable odds = a more interesting PvP game.
And WoW has options, they're called talent points. And they're better than the 'fluff' options other MMOs give you just to add fake 'depth'. You can also specialize your gear to be better at things such as support, or dps, or burst dps, or long-term dps. Just because you lack imagination, doesn't mean the game lacks depth. Those are real options. Holy priest is completely different to shadow priest, and both are real options. You can't do everything with one spec, that's whats the beauty of the system is - you have to make a choice.
Other games let you do everything with their specialization, only you can do one thing just a little better. That's fluff, and why World of Warcraft's talent system is brilliant. Even EQ2 made a similar system - but didn't have the balls for each AA tree to make a real difference to your character. It's just fluff.
WoW = antifluff, good character specialization.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I've not read the whole thread but their appears to be a bit of discussion about pvp here.
After deciding to play WoW for a bit just for the fact that if you are in this hobby it is daft not to try it at least once, I've found that the game is very item centric.
However this does not necessarily mean that the player with the best gear must win, sure it makes a difference and puts the odds in his/her favour but there is always someone that is gonna come along and think hard enough about things to find the chink in that "ubah dude's" set-up. Or a person who will come along and take the risk to break the cookie-cutter mould to try a new setup that works.
Ever wonder why some of the best pvp-ers on your server are the best pvp-ers? It is not just because they have farmed the best gear, but also because they know which attacks/spells/items to use against which profession and when. However, granted WoW is not devoid of user skill, it does, still, favour those with the best gear.
No MMO is exactly rocket science and it all depends on how easy/hard you the player want to make it. If the items had been attribute locked rather than lvl locked I might have stuck around, but it's not for me. Good game for those that like it, of this I have no doubt.
That might be true, you don't know the numbers for sure though; perhaps its more, perhaps it's less. You're just guessing.
Whether your guess is accurate or not, the same applies to any MMO that releases subscriber numbers, thus the point about who is actually playing on a somewhat arbitrary "semi-regular basis" is redundant.
(In other words there was no point to what you posted.)
Actually L2 has more subs then WoW. WoW beats all others in US subs and US subs only. Worldwide L2 is number one, in EU and Asia (mostly asia) L2 is still king. The bulk of WoW's subs don't even come from the US either, it's Asia.Not that it matters. As someone else pointed out. Money is money, who cares where or how they get it.
Grats blizz.
Wish Darkfall would release.
It is impressive. The way that game is design its fun and easy to play. It takes all the best elements of all the old MMOs and and simplifies it. It worked. At the expense of the depth of the gameplay.
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Playing: Age of Conan Trial (trying to at least)
Played: Runescape, WoW, FFXI, Fury
Tried: LotRO, EVE, CoV, PotCO
No game is perfetc I just see WOW as a very good game for kids or a starter mmo. Or maybe even just an mmo made for people who arent good at hard mmo's that are ksill-based. Nothign wrong with playing a game in easy mode
In what ways does it lack depth?
Just because it doesn't have tons of fluff that has little to no effect on gameplay, doesn't mean it lacks depth?
I could understand saying EVE has more depth, but that's only because of the territorial control. Very few MMOs are deeper than WoW, but if you know of one, I'd love to hear why you think it has depth - chances are it's probably not depth at all, but something else.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Even when I still played, everyday I contemplated quitting and then looking at the sub number is what kept me in. It's the same for many. You think about quitting then think half of the cosmos is playing it and then say to heck with it, I'll just stay. It's a shame really. More people need to realize that Sci-Fi > Fantasy so we can make the market more diverse.
Even when I still played, everyday I contemplated quitting and then looking at the sub number is what kept me in. It's the same for many. You think about quitting then think half of the cosmos is playing it and then say to heck with it, I'll just stay. It's a shame really. More people need to realize that Sci-Fi > Fantasy so we can make the market more diverse.
Thank you for explaining to this guy what lack of depth means, he just didnt seem to get itIts simplicity can be a very great thing which is why I think its a great game for kids and newbies (not ment as an insult)
Draenor Server Ratio Onlive Friday Night - 11,000 + Alliance, 3,500 Horde. One server.
Retired Max LvL and Raiding for - EQ - DAoC - Dungeon Runners - WoW - LoTR:Online - GW/All Expansions - CoH/V - SWG *** Currently Playing EQ2 *** Awaiting - PoTBS!
I think they dont need want your congratz, just your money and dont talk to much, is the marketing law of wow
Even when I still played, everyday I contemplated quitting and then looking at the sub number is what kept me in. It's the same for many. You think about quitting then think half of the cosmos is playing it and then say to heck with it, I'll just stay. It's a shame really. More people need to realize that Sci-Fi > Fantasy so we can make the market more diverse.
Thank you for explaining to this guy what lack of depth means, he just didnt seem to get itIts simplicity can be a very great thing which is why I think its a great game for kids and newbies (not ment as an insult)
It's funny.It's simplicity can also have a kind of negetive effect as well.
I've been trying for over a year to get a friend of mine to play another MMO with me. He's tried several others and every time he quits after a few days and goes back to WoW. Why? In his words, "they're to hard to level." No joke, he thinks other MMO's are hard. He doesn't like leveling, he doesn't care about questing, he doesn't care about tradeskills, he just wants to log in and play.
This is a guy that levelled his first 60 by just grinding mobs. When they made xp quests give gold instead of xp at max level, he still had every quest that would give xp to do.
It's ruined him for other MMO, and it sucks.
Wish Darkfall would release.
^
I hear ya man. The funny thing is that WoW isn't even THAT easy. It takes 2-4 months to get to max level so that you can actually play the game, and the max level is easier than pretty much any game out there since there is nothing except commitment to getting better gear (which never ends btw). The leveling is just like any other game really, except Lineage which I'd say is undeniably longer and more difficult. People need to wake up. I really hope the next generation of MMO's can enlighten people. Just looking at WoW screenshots after not playing for 4 months makes me really question how myself and others got so addicted. I guess it just happens. SCI-FI FTW.
Thats what ive been saying, wow is for people who dont like hard games. Nothing wrong with that im not bashing it
Unfortunetly the economy, and death penalty did him in.
He didn't like losing xp when he died, and when it came time to get new gear he realized that you actually have to work for it.
His words, "I don't like risk, and I shouldn't have to earn gear in a game."
God I hate this game, and I hate that I keep going back to it just so I can play with him.
It's hard not to play something that people you know in real life are playing, and pretty much everyone I've played with in game actually plays with people they know in thier personall life. Hell, two people I know got divorced and now the ex-wife is dating a guild mate.
WTF, is wrong with the world!
Wish Darkfall would release.
Ok when I played SWG which was before wow the only way to level was by grinding countless beasts, npcs and what not, cant say it was fun, but I did it to achieve my goals, and than when I finally did that I started pvping, and played my master armorsmith alt and got resources. Some of you would consider this hard where as in wow its very simple. I really dont get that, in WoW leveling is FUN, most of the quests not all are fun to do, they have a story which they show, you get rewards + xp and you have fun doing it. So yes some other MMOs may be considered harder because you do quests that arent fun or have to farm the same mobs till you level so leveling in them simply sucks, and you hate it but dont want to say anything because you consider it hard, and dont want to do it allover again because its a boring grind where as in WoW the grind can be somewhat entertaining, with rewards etc.
WoW hasnt ruined anything for me or anyone else who plays it, simply other MMOs dont satisfy some players the way WoW does, thats why they come back to it, they dont come back because they love Blizzard. People however are quick to point their fingers at wow and say that it ruined MMOs for people, that to me doesnt make any sense. Leveling in WoW may not be too difficult, because it is fun, you wouldnt mind doing this series of quests because in the end you will be rewarded and you will reveal some of the story of the game, simply the game is well put together.
Any MMO out there ISNT hard, it may be harder than your previous MMO but it ISNT hard, all you need is Time + the patience required, in some peoples cases the so called "hard" MMOs where quests are Bugged/not worth it or you simply find that a faster way to level is to kill the same godamn npcs in the same area till you achieve your goal.
In every thread I read people say x game is hard and wow is carebear its some game that is bugged or you need to isolate your self from the real world for months and months till you level. Americans are busy people, we work we go to school and we like to spend time with our loved ones, no one wants to sit infront of the computer starring at one animal and kill it over and over till you ding. We want rewards, we want entertainment, we want to have fun, and like change.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC
-Playing WoW
-Retired- SWG
-Retired- EVE
-Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled)
- 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
Load of bollocks really. You guys wouldn't know depth if it slapped you in the face. Just because other MMOs dilute content with time, doesn't make them deeper, it just makes them take longer to do the content. WoW doesn't insult your intelligence (as much) as other MMOs with fake depth.
Doesn't make WoW easier either. Time != difficulty. So FF has missions, WoW has the battlegrounds. EVE has terroritorial control, WoW has PvP you can engage in constantly. UO has 'solid PvP', pre-EA - maybe. But that's a long dead game.
So where's the depth? You show me depth I show you misconception.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
And stop saying WoW is easy. Because I find other MMOs no more difficult to play. In fact their slow pace makes it even easier than WoW because you have time to think. Just because WoW's PvP is quick paced, and you don't have time to think, doesn't mean other aren't thinking faster and better than you are.
WoW's raids are great as well, as good as EQ1 raids - but manageable so you don't need to play 8 hours a day like we used to do in EQ1. Did EQ1 have more depth? No. It just took longer.
Taking longer doesn't make things deeper, it just means your exp bar is slower, and you have to hit the 1 key a few more times per mob. Even WoW's crowd control has more options than most other MMOs. That's depth right there.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
The accounts are - for the 100th time - ACTIVE.
I don't think OGJackson meant any illwill by hils question. While the game is very impressive and is definately much more successful than any other MMOG to date. I still have a hard time believing that those 9 million are active. I counted 222 servers on WoW realm status area.. possibly I could have missed a few. I was blown away that they actually have that many servers. I haven't play WoW in quite some time myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think approximately 4000 players on at one time is pretty much the max, of course I doubt all servers are running the max every night.
Lets just play around with the numbers for shits and grins. 222x4000=888,000. That i's a very impressive number.. in fact pretty much amazing. If they have 9 million active accounts.. wouldn't you think it would take many more servers running 24/7 to handle this many people? I'm not saying it's impossible because there are so many variants ie...it's a world wide game and since it's a very casual game. I believe there are millions of people who do play it casually.
I'm sure someone will flame, but I'm not bashing the game. In it's own way it's a fantastic game, it just couldn't keep my attention past the 3 months I played after release.
What are you just counting US Servers?
I've seen someone with this disease before. No matter what you tell him, you can't persuade him. Have you ever tired to tell a BMW fan that Ferrari makes better and faster cars? Yeah, so I'm just going to ignore your post to save this board from having an unintelligent e-battle of mass MMO proportions.
They count EVERY SINGLE account in China / Taiwan / Korea as "Active" because you cannot "close" an account, you simply stop playing and you get billed by the amount of time you played that month which happens to be $0.00 in most cases. Also it costs no initial fee to open a WoW account in these countries and they stay open indefinitely, its very common to have two, three, or more accounts per person and they don't actually "play" a single one of them. Not to mention gold sellers!
Oh come on, you haven't even made a decent argument yet. I've given you solid arguments of why WoW is deeper, you think I'm being a fanboy? Come on, use your brain and tell me why WoW is so much less deeper than other MMOs?
You can't simply say "because it is." That doesn't work.
Well maybe it does for politicians but...
I give good arguments, you guys just say "it sucks". I explain why time isn't depth, and you guys have NOTHING to come back with. As far as I'm concerned, you guys have applied no reason to any of your criticisms.
Engage your brains for a change, and absorb this simple fact you all appear to misunderstand:
TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DIFFICULTY OR 'DEPTH', IT'S HOW CONTENT IS DILUTED.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
If you are a good skilled player who understand your class/build it is obvious that you will level faster because you will kill faster and will die less, and I never said that skill doesnt play a factor, it seems to me that you 1. Didnt read my post or 2. Didnt understand it. And I was never bashing any game about not requiring skill, I dont know how I need experience to make my post more clear lol.
I really dont see how what you said comes from a high experienced person lol, you just stated the obvious.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC
-Playing WoW
-Retired- SWG
-Retired- EVE
-Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled)
- 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
I would call depth gameplay mechanics. WoW has one mechanic, combat. It does it very well, but it doesn't do anything else.
No mounted combat.
No ownership outside of gear, and passive pets.
No controllable territories.
No guild functionality other then raiding.
No social mechanics other then raiding.
EQ2 is exactly like WoW, and has a ton more depth.
Scripted encounters isn't depth. And when you can use a mod that tells you exactly when a mob is going to do something that's EASY. Only thing hard about raiding is getting people to show up on time, and do what they are supposed to do when they're supposed to do it.
When you want to do an instance you need: One healer (preferably a priest) One crowd control (preferably a mage) one tank (preferably a warrior) and any two dps (preferably a hunter and a warlock) There isn't diversity in groups and that means no depth there.
Some games don't have strict group setups. CoH has multiple classes within each archtype. Multiple DPS, multiple tanks, multiple healers, multiple crowd controll classes; that's depth.
Believe it or not, housing is depth. Anything that you can do outside of combat is depth.
So um. Outside of combat, what can you do in WoW? Proffesions. Yeah. Select recipe, select number of items you want, click create, and wait. EQ2 actually makes you craft an item at a time and has some amount of involvement in the process, VG the same.
Really, outside of combat, what can you do in WoW?
Edit: WoW really only has seasonal events, aside from that events are far and few between. Other games have GM run events that happen often. That's depth that WoW also lacks. Especially when they do the exact same seasonal event at the exact same time of year, every year.
Edit: L2 has more depth then WoW, and that games pretty frigin linear.
Wish Darkfall would release.
There is no point trying to convince people who hate wow, MMORPG.com is very against WoW from what I have noticed and a good chunk of the haters are even WoW vets which to me thats being a hypocrite, but the saddest part of it all is how these people are such a minority compared to people who love wow and they feel special because of it, they feel as if they are elite players, heroes of the genre, and wow has came and destroyed the genre.
Once again the only explanation people give for hating wow is 1 too many kids (theres alot more adults if you cared to look and find a decent guild) and 2 its too easy, because apparently the game is full of content and quests that will level you from 1 - 70 without having to countlessly kill worthless animals for some xp, and 3 there is no skill involved, and whoever said this I dont think that they even bothered to play the end game or the social aspect of the game. Not much skill is needed to level, but to be an effective player in a group, guild, raid and pvp you DO need skill. If you say otherwise than you didnt even play the end game stuff, if that was the case than there wouldnt be succesful guilds in wow, there wouldnt be good pvpers who are known to be good, and there wouldnt be such things as a good healer, or a good tank who keeps their party alive by doing a good job managing agro, and being able to keep their healer from dying due to agro. I have grouped and played with people who suck mostly pugs, and have pvped with people who use their classes abilities for each situation and the end result is success and have played with people who play healer classes and dont bother to heal. PLease of you say something sucks give an educated post, and list how it is so instead of just saying it sucks, that really doesnt say much, other than an opinion that doesnt count.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC
-Playing WoW
-Retired- SWG
-Retired- EVE
-Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled)
- 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).