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A review from a player and developers comments.
Talad
PlaneShift DeveloperMember UncommonPosts: 83
We received a very hard but meaningful review, and I would like to clarify some points.
Before starting I just want to make a premise:
- PlaneShift is not made by a commercial company, but by a group of passionate people who like online games and develop PlaneShift in their spare time. They all have real life jobs, families and also other interests.
- PlaneShift do not have any kind of premium service, buy items with real money, pay to play areas, pay to play skills. Nearly all the games we are compared with, have a completely different business model, they are real companies, they sell services like the ones above, they make money out of it and so they can pay full time developers, so quality is higher.
- PlaneShift has not decided to go the commercial way at this point, because all developers do this for fun and learning. If we will see that we can't proceed without adding premium services we will evaluate it, but in general we will prefer to avoid it. We want a gaming experience fair to all players
- PlaneShift is not finished and never claimed to be a full game, we are in version 0.3 now, long way from 1.0
- We expect people to try it, enjoy it and join us to make it better.
Now the review
Roahn posted:
Combat: Yes, Planeshift "has combat," but it is not well implemented. For those interested in PvP, combat has gotten significantly worse. In older versions, you could time your attacks, making it somewhat challenging to get good at combat. But months ago, this was changed so attacks are very difficult to time. Basically flip a coin and hope you hit first.
Developer answer: The combat is still under heavy review, but the reaction of monsters is the same in 018 and 019 versions. If you encounter issues in the first hit is most likely due to server lag. We are running on donated servers, and the bandwidth is not always great.
Combat is terribly boring because of lack of variety. You will see people use one of only two weapons, since the game lacks any sense of balance, and one dagger and one sword are vastly superior to any other weapon.
There are no bows, spears, slings or any other missile weapons in the game.
Developer answer: I agree it is, we have built the foundations of combat, but we did not yet go into fine tuning the rules behind it. This means the engine is capable of managing different type of damages against different armor types and it considers a great number of factors in combat like: location, fatigue, maluses given by armor and weapons, possibility of counter attacks and block. I agree it's not very enjoyable today, but the foundation is good and it just needs fine tuning and testing.
In these duels, you will generally only see one spell used (Energy Arrow), again because of lack of balance. There are only around 15 spells in the game that can be cast, however most of them are broken, do nothing useful, or are vastly underpowered. I would say there are only 4 or 5 spells that have any use at all.
Developer answer: Yes, spells are a big lack at the moment, but we are focusing on it right now. There are many new spells ready, and I think magic will become more interesting very soon.
Fighting monster is laughable. First of all, around 50% of the time, the "NPC server" is down, meaning that you cannot attack monsters. Recently the NPC server was down for 13 out of 14 days straight. Planeshift people talk about how important RP is... that's because with the monsters not working, there's not much else to do except stand around and talk (AKA "RP").
Stability: Since the most recent update (3.019) the server has been crashing about every 10 minutes.
Developer answer: about this point I think you saw a very critical situation, the average stability is much better than what we had in the last days. This week it has been terrible and I apologize for that. In general you should expect the game server to restart 1 time a day, and have NPC server up about 80% of the time. I may agree it's not great, but it's enough to make the game fun.
When the monsters are "awake," combat is dull. Monster AI is circa 1995, where they walk slowly toward you. None of them shoot at you.
Developer answer: The AI is pretty basic, one of the major issue is that monsters are slow, they basically only walk, and do not run. This is an issue we didn't fix for too much time, and we will fix before 0.3.020 release. I hope with more spells and challenging monsters the fighting parts will become more interesting.
Skills: What skills? There are no functioning skills that you might see in other games. No thieving, lockpicking, cooking, etc. Crafting swords and daggers is it.
Developer answer: That's not true, we have skills you develop mainly with crafting, like smithing, mining, all weapon skills and magic skills. I agree they have to be expanded. About lockpicking we have it implemented but it's not actually used in the game, we have short term plans for it.
Training: If you want to train weapons, you have to fight. If you want to train magic, you have to fight. Want to train mining? Gotta fight. Training your crafting skills? You have to fight. The only way to earn significant experience is... you guessed it... combat.
Developer answer: This is not true, experience arrives from quests and combat, so you can vary how to get exp. We have short term plans to add exp on successful crafting of items. So those will be the 3 major ways to get exp.
Crafting: I have not personally crafted, because I have heard so many complaints about how boring it is, how frustrating it is, etc. Nobody has been crafting in the last few weeks, since crashing every 10 minutes means you can never finish crafting a weapon worth more than junk.
Developer answer: the stability issue is addressed above. About crafting we layed out the foundation for crafting in the past year and is now working pretty well. The problem is the ability for players to discover the different combinations in materials, and this makes it boring. The idea here is to provide this information with in game books and NPCs, plus players can write books with recipes and share those in game. I think the system is pretty powerful, but needs more user-friendly information and more people using it.
Models are seriously lacking. In six of the classes, there is no female model, so they all have to use one model. Male models are in a similar situation. In the year and a half that I had been playing, I saw only one character model added.
Skins: Once your character is created, you cannot change his or her appearance except to put on armor. There are only two sets of armor so far (leather and chain). There are no capes or robes or other clothing.
Developer answer: We don't have classes, we have 12 races which can do whatever profession they prefer. It's not true we have no female models, there are 3 female models in game atm: elf, dwarf and ynnwn. In the last year we may have added just one player char, but we added a lot of new skins for monsters, new skins for existing player races, plus new areas. We don't have unlimited resources, but I think we surely showed progress in the graphical department.
About armor skins, there is a the plate armor, and each race has a custom one, plus there are now 5 different base skins for the cat people (enkidukai).
Monsters: In the time I have been playing, no monster models have been added. They have however added a slightly-modified skin to a monster, and given it a new name, but it's still the same behavior, same size, etc. Also two monsters might have the same name, model, skin, give the same reward and experience, yet one is wimpy while the other is quite deadly.
Developer answer: This is very wrong, new monster skins have been added, and new monster types (derghir, tloke) and size also. There are a new coming and under work. Again here please remember we don't have a team of payed gfx artists, but just volunteers. I think they are doing a great job so far.
Experience: The experience you earn while fighting monsters seems to make little sense. One trepor (an insect-like monster), for example, might give you 400 experience, while another identical trepor gives you 2000. You can imagine that this causes a lot of crowding around the ones that give good experience, while people ignore to onces with low reward.
Developer answer: Yes, we overlooked many of those unbalanced monsters, and surely we need a review of this. There is no short term plan, but I think it's quite needed, like the ability for them to run and chase better.
Mounts: There aren't any.
Developer answer: We didn't plan any for now.
Pets: You can acquire a "pet" from a quest, if you wish. This pet is basically a statue the does not do anything. It is supposed to be able to follow you, but 3/4 of the time, it doesn't work. It doesn't move, or fight, or do anything at all. To top it off, it vanishes about 5 minutes after you summon it, and you then cannot summon it again for 24 hours. They are completely pointless in Planeshift.
Developer answer: This feature is surely lacking, I agree. But the point is that we have it in place. Again the foundation for pets is done and to make real use of those is not a very long step. We have nice plans for pets, and even if pointless now, I think they will become pretty cool in the future.
Bugs: Oh man, the list goes on. I reported a bug back in December, a bug where people could quite easily and quickly duplicate any items, including the most precious of weapons or expensive magical glyphs.
Developer answer: We have plenty of bugs, and there will be many until we finalize the basic functions of the game. We are in the development stage of PlaneShift, and so we expect bugs. Players are aware of this and are still happy to play and try out our game. We are not a product on the market which is near completion or completed, it's a game being developed open to the public. You can take the good or the bad part of it as you please.
Environment: As you walk around the land, you will find huge, empty areas. You can run for 30 minutes and not see a single monster, NPC or player. Most of the monsters in the game are packed densely in one building called the "arena." Oh, be careful as you walk around, as you are quite likely to get stuck on a surface and be unable to move.
Developer answer: I don't agree with this comment, there are no big places where you have no monsters. There are some outdoor areas which connect one city to the other where you have a low density of monsters and this was done by purpose for now, those areas will be populated later on with small villages or dungeons.
It is my opinion that the Planeshift team is completely disorganized. I believe that their developers work only on what they consider fun and interesting at the moment. If a huge, glaring bug isn't fun to fix, it won't get fixed. If some useless new feature or quest sounds interesting to create, it will get added.
Developer answer: We are less organized than a real company, but very organized considering we are a free project. We have developed internal tools for tracking tasks, deadlines and assets. We have regular meetings, we have a defined organization with role and responsibilities. In addition there are a number of members which are with no doubt organized and very efficent. But a team like ours is meant to be like this, and we also have people just having fun and learning. The good part of open development is that you get a more friendly community and the chance to add what you want to the game (after proper reviews and approvals). In the other games you find around you have no way to learn how they are made, to add new features or new models. That's the good part of a project like PlaneShift, the bad part is that you will never get the same quality a real company gets. But maybe some features will be more interesting and fun, and the process of making it is surely 10 times more fun than playing, at least for me.
It amazes me that 15 years of development has produced this half-finished pre-alpha "tech demo."
Developer answer: The development of PlaneShift (in it's 3d version) is 5 years old, not 15.
A commercial mmorpg takes about 3-5 years to make, and I'm extremely proud of what we made in our spare time in the time frame of 5 years. I could not stress enough the complexity of making such a game with free resources. Probably the best example is to say that nearly none else made it. All other projects are somewhat commercial, making money out of it, which is not per se a bad approach, but something we would like to avoid if not forced to.
As a summary I hope people will encourage such a project and other similar projects, and not just bash or speak badly of the efforts made to provide a free game to you. I think the review was quite presenting many of our lacks and gave me the opportunity to clarify the next developments. Please consider that along with those lacks there are also many other nice features which are actually working.
We are having fun making this game, we have great opportunity to expand it and make it better, you can be part of this as a player or as a developer depending on your skills and will.
Comments
I don't even know how people play PS enough to be able to formulate an opinion on it. I'd feel lucky to even be able to *do* something in the game.
In the past several months, every time I try to connect to the game, the server is either down and I can't connect at all; or I can get into game, walk around for 5 minutes, tops, before the server loses connection and then I can't connect again. I'll keep getting a "failed" description for the server at the login screen. This happens regardless of where I am or what ISP I'm connecting through, firewall or no, so I really hope the response isn't some canned "it's either your ISP or something on your end" reply.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Developer answer: This is not true, experience arrives from quests and combat, so you can vary how to get exp. We have short term plans to add exp on successful crafting of items. So those will be the 3 major ways to get exp.
I think you missed the word "significant." Yes you can earn experience by mining, but the reward is so slight as to be insignificant. If you want to train mining to any decent level, you will have to go fight monsters to earn the PP. Same thing for quests. You can spend 2 or 3 hours doing quests to get 10 PP... or just kill one trepor in 30 seconds.
Developer answer: We don't have classes, we have 12 races which can do whatever profession they prefer. It's not true we have no female models, there are 3 female models in game atm: elf, dwarf and ynnwn. In the last year we may have added just one player char, but we added a lot of new skins for monsters, new skins for existing player races, plus new areas. We don't have unlimited resources, but I think we surely showed progress in the graphical department.
I did not say there are no female models. I said there are no female models for 6 races, so they have to all use the same ynnwn model. In over 18 months since I started, only one player model was added.
About armor skins, there is a the plate armor
By "plate armor" you mean gloves, since last I heard, that was the only plate armor pieces added.
Developer answer: This is very wrong, new monster skins have been added, and new monster types (derghir, tloke) and size also.
Again you read me wrong. I said "no monster models" have been added, not skins. All the "new monsters" that have been added are just the same old monsters with a slightly different skin and a new name, but still the same old monster.
Developer answer: We have plenty of bugs, and there will be many until we finalize the basic functions of the game. We are in the development stage of PlaneShift, and so we expect bugs. Players are aware of this and are still happy to play and try out our game. We are not a product on the market which is near completion or completed, it's a game being developed open to the public. You can take the good or the bad part of it as you please.
Bugs I can understand, in a pre-alpha "tech demo," but what gets me is that I see the same problems repeated with every release. A bug occurs, then is fixed. Next update comes out, and the old bug has returned.
Developer answer: I don't agree with this comment, there are no big places where you have no monsters. There are some outdoor areas which connect one city to the other where you have a low density of monsters and this was done by purpose for now, those areas will be populated later on with small villages or dungeons.
Up until a few weeks ago, only 2 monsters existed in all of Bronze Door, and they usually "fell off the world" the moment they tried to chase someone, so half the time, that huge area was devoid of life. Now there are a handful of repainted ulbers. How many monsters are there now, Talad, in all of Bronze Door? 5? 6? I would call that empty.
Developer answer: The development of PlaneShift (in it's 3d version) is 5 years old, not 15.
Please check the official Planeshift site as you seem mistaken about Planeshift's history. Planeshift was started in 1992, which by my calculates is 15 years. Work began on the 3D version, per the official site, in 2007, which is 7 years, not 5. Here's the link to your official site:
http://www.planeshift.it/news_1992-2000.html
Thank you for your reply. Since most of your answers were "Yes, that feature isn't available, but we have plans for it someday," I only felt the need to respond to a few points.
-Roahn
Developer answer: We don't have classes, we have 12 races which can do whatever profession they prefer. It's not true we have no female models, there are 3 female models in game atm: elf, dwarf and ynnwn. In the last year we may have added just one player char, but we added a lot of new skins for monsters, new skins for existing player races, plus new areas. We don't have unlimited resources, but I think we surely showed progress in the graphical department.
I did not say there are no female models. I said there are no female models for 6 races, so they have to all use the same ynnwn model. In over 18 months since I started, only one player model was added.
To be fair, Roahn, you did say "classes" instead of "races" in your initial comment, and being that "class" and "race" are two relevant terms with different meanings, I can understand the correction given by Talad there. Regardless a great rebuttal post on your part. You seem to know more about the specifics of the game than Talad - that's pretty... umm.. bad. You should still consider yourself lucky to even be able to play the game - I've still been unable to even log in (server failure) since my last post.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You're right, I did call them classes instead of races by mistake.
BTW, I don't play Planeshift anymore. I only played it because it used to be about the only 3D MMORPG that ran natively in Linux. I had high hopes for Planeshift, always thinking "This game will be great when X, Y and Z are added." However 20 months later, X, Y and Z are still not there, and practically nothing else has improved. I believe it is caught in a perpetual state of "pre-alpha tech demo."
I have since switched to a new game called Regnum that has a Linux as well as Windows client, and is also a free MMORPG. It is a complete game, quite polished and balanced. I highly recommend it.
-Roahn
Ya same here. There are many times I wish they would take one of us non fanbois and just ask, hey what do we need to do to make this game better and playable. Often times I've surfed the boards and tried the game over the past I guess couple of years. I think the feed back they get from their current community isn't realistically what the greater community wants "ya ya we only want to cater to our rpg's... heh that’s rubbish you can cater to multiple groups". Think of the millions of linux users you haven't even begun to tap into yet... With the correct priorities in place for bug fix's and new real advancements of the game to make it something more "linux especially" users want. I think this game has huge potential. Then again I've been saying this to myself for a long time now.
Innovation
This is my second problem with the game. Where is it? Ya I know its free, but you don't need tons of money to do something really different within a game. Why is the status quo ok for all mmorpgs? Small innovations go so far in mmorpgs, I think developers really have no clue how far this will go. Even if your game doesn't have the greatest graphics, sound, and ui. Great innovation will draw attention to your product that allows you to generate not only new clients but new investors and dev's as well. A project that shows huge potential in the fact it is doing something very much different then the rest of the crowd goes a long way.
Tools , tools and more tools.
Easy implementation of game features and bug fixes are pretty much the number 1 thing any mmorpg needs. I'm not bashing your tools "haven't even seen them lol". However a constant development of tools to make these things easier is 100% required. Ya this means more staff "ie someone full time developing your tools to do what the dev's need easily/quickly" . As I can guess there is one of three problems going on with planeshift. One, the tools aren't quite expansive enough for devs to get the full use they need from them. Two, the devs haven't been fully brought up to speed on everything those bad boys can do. Or three they need more development to meet the needs of all the devs on the project.
Community Management
Not sure if you have a community manger, or if he/she just doesn't know what they are doing?!? "maybe not enough time to do the full job?" This isn't saying they aren't trying their best and doing what they think is right. Yet I feel there is a serious lack in this position. Do you know how many 1000's of sites there are for mmorpgs, yet alone linux games? This yet plays again into a huge untapped resource for linux/free mmorpg clients. That being said you don't really want to tap into this resource until the game is more up to snuff. From these resources you can get serious beta "might I say alpha" testers. These are key to focusing on what your real priorities are.
Quick Summary "don't be so damn defensive"
People care to post about this game because so so many people are disappointed. This game over the years has shown so much potential and disappointed so much more. Long winded posts "such as mine lol" are because we want to see this game succeed. It will not however if you keep down the same road your heading down. Ya you can make a few hundred bucks here and there by selling items to the games "small" but loyal crowd. However you should open your mind and think on a much more broad scale.
Good points, all.
Thing is, I give props to *anyone* pursuing the development of a MMORPG, or any "grass-roots" game project (even if PS was originally to be a commercial endeavor, it isn't for right now). Games are not easy to develop. They can take large teams of 20 or more up to 2+ years to develop, not to mention potentially millions of dollars when all is said and done. MMORPGs are even more complex and potentially costly. Who hasn't heard about the now legendary 30 million Sigil was given by MS for Vanguard and pretty much threw it down the toilet? This is a very large reason why you don't see much innovation in commercial MMOs anymore - they're so expensive and such a financial risk to the publishers, that they don't want to take a chance on something new or different. They want something that's proven - thus all the WoW and Lineage 2 and EQ clones out there.
That said, true innovation hardly ever comes from the big companies - for the above reasons, and others, I'm sure. Think about it this way... Who created Tetris? A single guy working out of his home, I believe. I think he even sold the rights to the game because he didn't think it'd be successful (though I might be confusing it with another game). Who created the First Person Shooter as we know it now? A then little company out of Texas named "ID Software" who had, prior to that created a series of 2D, 16-color side-scrollers starring a little guy in a football helmet named Commander Keen. FPSs were revolutionary and took the gaming world by storm... Yet it was designed by a very small company. Myst - the adventure game that people either love or hate, was originally designed by some guys working out of their garage... How huge did that series become? How many clones of that playstyle did it spawn? And on and on...
The point is... It's going to be the smaller, independent developers who aren't even on most people's radar who are going to truly innovate and bring something new and fresh to the genre - or create a new one altogether. Because they have the least to lose if it fails so they can afford to take the biggest risks.
It's this very thing that had gotten me 110% behind Planeshift when I first learned about it, as well as another MMO-FPS-RPG called "Endless Ages" which was developed by a small team out of Florida and was also something different. But in Planeshift's case, I was a huge follower of it. I read all the lore, imagined all the areas that I'd be exploring someday, imagined the possibilities and bought into it completely. At that time I was actually able to log in and run around; there wasn't much to see.. just the main town, a cavern area and a few interior areas - and these "ruby" things that people could pick up; don't remember what those were exactly. The thing is, Planeshift - in design and concept - *is* fairly innovative and unique in the genre. It can and would deliver something new to players looking for something different. They just can't seem to get it off the ground.
And now, after all this time - easily a few years later - it looks like they've finally added some new areas and expanded on the game system... Except that now I can't log in to actually *experience* any of it.
And yeah... I agree... The devs are way more defensive than I think they deserve to be. Funny thing about MMO Players... we are probably some of the most critical, unforgiving and detail-oriented of all the genres. However, that fierce critical nature can also be turned into fierce and practically undying loyalty as well. Give players a personal stake in what you're doing, open your mind a bit to what they're saying and it's amazing how many of them will step up and give you an honest appraisal of things - not only for your benefit.. but for *their own* as well because it's a game that *they* want to play. That's not to say they should just bend to every whim and wish of anyone with a suggestion or a request... certainly filter out the ideas that simply don't fit or wouldn't work.
Even AAA games being developed have their devs accepting a degree of feedback and suggestions from the player-base - again, because those players are likely going to be the game's bread and butter when it's released. Turn them away, blow them off and you end up with a very pissed off group of people turning their backs on you, with a vengeance. SOE and SWG ring a bell to anyone? You can't just make decisions in vacuum and say "I don't care what you think, this is our game and we will make it the way we want, whether you like it or not" - that is unless you're looking to keep your player-base very small. Then that's the perfect way to go about it.
But anyway.. I know there was a point in all that rambling, but I think I lost it somewhere halfway through..
I think Planeshift is a concept with alot of potential. With the proper execution and the right attitude from its development team, it could do very well. But they do have to drop the damn arrogance and defensiveness when someone's giving a harsh criticism of the game from the *player's* perspective. It's the *players* the game is ultimately being designed for, is it not? Might be worthwhile to give 'em a listen from time to time.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's surely good that you want it to succeed, but it's not by posting bad reviews that it will help. I'm not scared of bad reviews because I know what we have in game, so all your saying are already known. If you want PlaneShift to improve spread the knowledge of it, and ask your smart developer's friends to contribute.
I absolutely disagree on the fact we didn't improve in the last 20 months. lot of things have been added in terms of features and models. For plate mail, there is plate mail available for most characters, you probably missed it. Also for new monsters, I said tloke and derghir, both are new, and each with new skins. we also added a new character model, and more are coming. we expanded the world with the winch level and more are coming. If you expect us to progress like a commercial company I doubt it will happen.
As for other games you quoted, those have a company behind, so I'm pretty sure are more complete and polished.
The good news is that we are improving every day, and many pieces are coming together, we have a very active community that helps us in detecting bugs, so we can fix those. If you want to help and you have no programming skills, surely you can join us at:
http://bugs.hydlaa.com/
and work with us to identify and verify the open bugs. It's very helpful.
I disagree on the fact bugs are never fixed, look at the closed bugs list and you'll see by yourself.
Very canned response. I've talked to devs myself. I've expressed my problems with getting devs on board on your forums"only to be clobbered by fanbois or canned responses.. You guys should release every part of the games source "including art" let devs setup their own servers and work out bugs and add new graphics/models/3d advancements. In the games current shape I don't know if you really want droves of people coming on board. It seems like the servers are unstable enough as it is with the very minimal "at best" amount of users. Are your problems from code or is it your server environment thats really causing allot of the issue?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Surely we have a roadmap and up to today we met our objectives, as I say the game is in version 0.3.019 now, where 019 is a build version, and 3 is minor version. We need to go through 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.7 0.8 and 0.9 before making a release 1.0 product. We don't have release dates for beta or alpha. The fact people here tries to compare us with a complete game is nice, but not realistic. We never overstated our content, we never overstated our development status.
What I say is there are hundreds of people having fun with it, helping us test and improve it, give positive criticism, add their ideas and seeing it developing. If you expect a beta release of a mmorpg you are very wrong. It took 5 years to reach this point, and none else made it with free resources, so we are at first place here. All the other games which have been listed are commercials one way or the other, with full time developers. So you cannot compare us with them.
I think PlaneShift is a wonderful and unique project, and I don't see why I should not advertize it or go into "PR" mode. The whole purpose I'm writing here is to advertize it, and to give a right impression of the game. Mainly I would like to have fair reviews, and I re-posted this one because it looks meaningful. Surely we need more developers than players, and we are not trying to attract players at all.
We have plans to improve each of those points and we are not ignoring those, the problem are resources, and we do our best. If you have a better idea on how to proceed, a team of people who wants to join, money to donate so we buy a new server, just sign up on our recruitment site and start adding some content to the game.
For now I didn't see any idea on how to improve from this forums, so if it's real you want PlaneShift to succeed, please start giving some real ideas and not just: "this is missing", we already know what's missing.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
We have most systems in place (combat, magic, crafting) the issue is mainly putting those to real use with meaningful data. I expect PlaneShift to become lot more playable in one year timeframe. But believe me, it's really down to the community of developers. If 4 new talented people join, we can cut times in half.I would love to answer that, but it's currently not possible. We are hitting our major objectives, but there still long way to go and the team is not always consistent. So one month we have 6 engine developers and 5 contributors, the next month we have 2. They go in vacation, they have personal issues, real life work, they at times even marry or have babies.
Yes, any criticism made to improve the game, and outlining real facts, this thread was re-posted by me because it was good and meaningful. So this kind of threads are surely well accepted.
I never said I don't like people criticizing the game, and that's why I posted this thread. Try out the game, you will find it's a lot more than what you heard here.
Right, we want to attract developers, people who are able to contribute to the game. About my reference to bad posts, it was not for this thread, but for other threads. So diregard the comment.
You are going overboard here. I never said that. I've acknowledged the missing parts plenty of times. Surely is more interesting to know what's present, and how to improve what we have, that's why I present what we have.
What are you talking about? Seems you are repeating the same complain over and over.
I listed what we have presenting the positive parts of the game, and not objected the reality, you can re-read my answers above.
This is the spirit by which we continue to develop PlaneShift, trying to create something different and innovative (like the way yo u speak to NPCs, or the way you research spells, crafting, or how we try to promote Role Play).
I think we get defensive just because we place much effort in making the game, and the overall line of conduct is to protect it. This is not something done just for the sake of it, but because the project is really at risk every day. With no funding everything relies only on people will and new people joining. Evidently wrong or bad reviews can put in danger the new developments of such a free organization, while they do exactly nothing to giants like Blizzard.
Well, let me know where you found "arrogance" in my answers. On the contrary I found lot of arrogance in many of the posts in this board, made by people with no idea of what's the project about. We get tons of feedback from people and players, and we provide tons of feedback back to them, in game, in forums, in bugtracker, in irc, in emails, in instant messaging, and also here.
Let me know another project where the project leader answers to forums.
As everything in life you can take the good or the bad part of things. I usually choose to take the good part. If someone here sees that as "blatant PR activity", well, it's just his point of view, and there are many games around on which they can enjoy.
I appreciated your post, and let me know if you were able to connect.
Okay, you asked me to point out where there's arrogance in your remarks...
First, allow me to explain the obvious... Not all arrogance is overt or outwardly spoken. Arrogance can also be the mindset from which a comment is made - even if the comment itself seems innocuous. It's sometimes referred to as a "passive agressive" remark. Reading between the lines will reveal the arrogance of the mentality behind it.
For example... Your comment:
"Yes, any criticism made to improve the game, and outlining real facts, this thread was re-posted by me because it was good and meaningful. So this kind of threads are surely well accepted."
Note I italicized the "real facts" comment. That right there is a red flag. However, instead of me presuming to know what a "real fact" is to you, though I think I have a good idea based on your replies to others comments about PS in this thread, I'll allow you the chance to qualify it yourself first, if you wish. Give an example of a "real fact" someone has given in this thread, versus one that was not "real". Then I'll respond.
Next comment:
"Well, let me know where you found "arrogance" in my answers. On the contrary I found lot of arrogance in many of the posts in this board, made by people with no idea of what's the project about. We get tons of feedback from people and players, and we provide tons of feedback back to them, in game, in forums, in bugtracker, in irc, in emails, in instant messaging, and also here.
Let me know another project where the project leader answers to forums."
The italicized part just jumps out like a sore thumb. But, again, instead of being presumptuous.. I'm going to allow you to elaborate on that. Please provide examples of someone who has an idea of what you're trying to do, versus someone who doesn't. Give specifics, right from this board if necessary, since you noted that there have been some made here. I want to see what your litmus test is for someone "getting it" or not.
Finally, this comment...
"Try out the game, you will find it's a lot more than what you heard here."
Wow. I'm not sure if that line is evidence of you not really *reading* what I've said, numerous times, about not being able to log in successfully for months now... or if it's you being sarcastic, or... dare I say it, an example of arrogance coming through in the form of sarcasm. Maybe you just don't see it as "a real fact"?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't know what to say more ... for "real facts" it was not intended to be arrogant in any way. If we go and check every word we say we will never move forward. About examples, I'm not willing to go into a debate on what's good or bad, and giving one example to get another example back.
The fact you are not able to login in months is hardly related to the server, there is plenty of info in our forums. There is average of 150 people online and connections/disconnection of players at every moment, so you can be sure the server is working.
Edited: Bah... nevermind. Not worth the time.
Talad, you've proven yourself many times over to be a blatant apologist and PR-Meister for PS, and nothing more.
I've heard and seen enough of PS, not to mention first-hand accounts of the political antics that go on behind the scenes (I have a friend who was involved with the project for a time and walked away in disgust at how it was handled). There's nothing that can be done to harm this project than is already being done by some of its own people. That Planeshift has failed to build and keep a substantial developer base and has crawled along in virtual anonymity for 7+ years now and likely will continue to, is evidence enough of that.
There's little that can be said about it that isn't self-evident - by anyone who doesn't buy into Talad's PR, anyway.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ooooooo... and the facade of professionalism falls off. Guess I hit an exposed nerve or two with that last post, eh?
What insults? I stated facts - "real facts" even - and provided my point-of-view of them.
A real-life friend was involved with your project for a time and left in disgust after seeing how poorly the project was handled. This is truth. He worked on the project. He related the experience to me. It seems others who have worked on the project have had similarly negative experiences, as has been noted elsewhere. There's no insult in that.
Next, I noted that the project has crawled along in anonymity, and ventured - not unreasonably - that it's at least in part due to the way the project is handled, the fact that the development team hasn't seemed to grow much over the past several years and seems to breed discontent in some that have worked on it. This much has been cited elsewhere. There's no insult in that.
Further, the game itself is fairly anonymous, is it not? You're measuring your player base in the "hundreds" where most MMOs measure in the thousands.. even 10s or 100s of thousands. As a frank assessment, I'd say that makes PS pretty small-time. There's nothing fallacious or insulting in any of that.
And after 5+ years of crawling along as it has, is it not unreasonable to assume that it will continue to, so long as the core development team doesn't grow and sustain its numbers and development is inconsistent, as you yourself have pointed out in a previous post? Are you now going to argue otherwise? There's no insult in that.
I'm sorry if reading the truth of the matter upsets you. Might not be so offensive if you'd take off the rose-colored glasses once in a while and look at the project a bit more as an outsider would, with a bit more objectivity.
As for readers being the judge of me. Let them judge. Sharing my opinions doesn't require anyone's approval or agreement one way or the other. Forums like this are for open and even frank discussion or debate. I've never name called. I've accused you of spin-meistering which, to me, you do quite alot of. However, I've never said you sucked or otherwise made personal insults. I have, however, called it as I see it. There's no insult in that.
Next, I think there's been enough evidence of your project's "iffy" history - inconsistencies, mis-statements and "untrue facts" - as pointed out and verified by others here - with specific references - for people to make their own judgements.
That you regard my statements as "insults", though none were made, betrays your entire demeanor - an intolerance for any harsh criticism that you cannot put a spin on. If it can't be explained away or otherwise twisted around with any degree of plausible deniability, you frame it as an "insult" and go on the defensive. Your last post illustrates that all too clearly. So does the fact that you "refused to debate" when I called you out to qualify your comments a couple posts before - even though you've responded to practically everything else I and others have said. It's impossible to spin your way out of it once you've laid your cards on the table. So, quite typical of a PR / Spin guy, you refused to, which is exactly why I took that tactic with you.
Anyway, I'm glad you let the mask drop and at least showed some glimmer of a real person beneath all the PR.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
All of our developers are very happy about the project, there are probably 2 people in the whole set of 200 developers we reviewed which are not happy. Plus there are a number which have been rejected during the selection process due to low or no skills. If he is one of those, then he should just not turn his failures into bad comments on our project.
To know it for real give us the name of this "friend" developer which had so much trouble with us, or is just something you heard from a friend of a friend?
And yes, I consider your post very insulting, because it's false, based on rumors you heard and written in a way to discredit the whole project, while you have no clue on how it's managed or made, you didn't even play the game!
Say what you want, just don't expect another answer from me, I've spent enough time with you, and after a quick review, none of our players reads or consider these posts of any value. The comments I've received are: "focus on the game, not on troublemakers". And they are very wise.
For everyone else, I highly recommend to disregard this forums apart from official members posts, if you want a real forum, moderated, go to PlaneShift web site.
Here you can just have people turning a decent discussion between a player and a dev, a personal attack to developers and to the project. This thread is the best document of the technique used by the people here.
In our forums you have real news, real discussions, real players giving good and bad reviews, real development going on. Also you get decent moderation, thing that here seems not present at all. Friendly and open community where everyone tries to get the best out of the game.
Enjoy PlaneShift!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Talad promotes uncivil behavior.
Developer answer: This is not true, experience arrives from quests and combat, so you can vary how to get exp. We have short term plans to add exp on successful crafting of items. So those will be the 3 major ways to get exp.
I think you missed the word "significant." Yes you can earn experience by mining, but the reward is so slight as to be insignificant. If you want to train mining to any decent level, you will have to go fight monsters to earn the PP. Same thing for quests. You can spend 2 or 3 hours doing quests to get 10 PP... or just kill one trepor in 30 seconds.
Early game the best way to get exp is to do quests. Past that I'll agree that you have to fight. If mining gave too much experience it would be overpowering considering how rich you would become. It's a balancing issue and something that is negligible this early in the game. Not saying it shouldn't be fixed but, it's not a priority.
Developer answer: We don't have classes, we have 12 races which can do whatever profession they prefer. It's not true we have no female models, there are 3 female models in game atm: elf, dwarf and ynnwn. In the last year we may have added just one player char, but we added a lot of new skins for monsters, new skins for existing player races, plus new areas. We don't have unlimited resources, but I think we surely showed progress in the graphical department.
I did not say there are no female models. I said there are no female models for 6 races, so they have to all use the same ynnwn model. In over 18 months since I started, only one player model was added.
About armor skins, there is a the plate armor
By "plate armor" you mean gloves, since last I heard, that was the only plate armor pieces added.
These are valid points, and it would be foolish not to give them to you. The Dermorian female model was recently added, though. Doesn't quite make up for the delay but perhaps it is a promise of things to come.
I've little to say about clothing. It doesn't seem all that important for a game so early in development.
Developer answer: This is very wrong, new monster skins have been added, and new monster types (derghir, tloke) and size also.
Again you read me wrong. I said "no monster models" have been added, not skins. All the "new monsters" that have been added are just the same old monsters with a slightly different skin and a new name, but still the same old monster.
The Derghir and the Tloke are which "same old monsters"?
Developer answer: We have plenty of bugs, and there will be many until we finalize the basic functions of the game. We are in the development stage of PlaneShift, and so we expect bugs. Players are aware of this and are still happy to play and try out our game. We are not a product on the market which is near completion or completed, it's a game being developed open to the public. You can take the good or the bad part of it as you please.
Bugs I can understand, in a pre-alpha "tech demo," but what gets me is that I see the same problems repeated with every release. A bug occurs, then is fixed. Next update comes out, and the old bug has returned.
Never get into commercial testing, you'll kill yourself :P
That being said, bugs do tend to reappear in development quite often. It does happen more in PlaneShift than it should though. There is no denying that.
Developer answer: I don't agree with this comment, there are no big places where you have no monsters. There are some outdoor areas which connect one city to the other where you have a low density of monsters and this was done by purpose for now, those areas will be populated later on with small villages or dungeons.
Up until a few weeks ago, only 2 monsters existed in all of Bronze Door, and they usually "fell off the world" the moment they tried to chase someone, so half the time, that huge area was devoid of life. Now there are a handful of repainted ulbers. How many monsters are there now, Talad, in all of Bronze Door? 5? 6? I would call that empty.
Umm... Not to point out the obvious but, you do know that the Bronze Doors main attribute is the big, hulking fortress right? :PDeveloper answer: The development of PlaneShift (in it's 3d version) is 5 years old, not 15.
Please check the official Planeshift site as you seem mistaken about Planeshift's history. Planeshift was started in 1992, which by my calculates is 15 years. Work began on the 3D version, per the official site, in 2007, which is 7 years, not 5. Here's the link to your official site:
http://www.planeshift.it/news_1992-2000.html
Thank you for your reply. Since most of your answers were "Yes, that feature isn't available, but we have plans for it someday," I only felt the need to respond to a few points.
-Roahn
7 years 5 years, it's quite obvious he was making an estimation. A bit nitpicky on your part. Added to which you completely disregarded the fact that many games with paid, professional developers take five years.
It was an interesting read, Roahn, and a well written review. I find it slightly odd that your main complaint about PlaneShift is that it is still in pre-alpha. Lack of content and buggy content seems to be all you are mentioning which is to be more than expected in a pre-alpha game.
To be completely honest, I don't think there is a way to review a pre-alpha game...
All the same, nice attempt.
First, my comments were directed at Talad - the project leader - not to any of his adoring cronies. His is the only response I am really interested in reading. But regardless, I'm sure he'll reward you with an autographed photo of him or something, for being so loyal and coming to his defense.
That said, your wonderful leader's feeble and, frankly, laughable attempts at saving face by spinning the mountains of information cited here against him, in this thread and others - not to mention his most obvious retreat from the forums - has been a source of great amusement for us all. Apparently, even Talad realizes that, when people are pointing out contradictions, legally questionable actions and flat out lies he's accountable for in the past, using his own words and verifiable actions to back them up, even he couldn't spin his way out of it. So he just did the whole last minute "I am retracting my comments because this thread is only intended to hurt the project" damage control thing and got the hell out of Dodge.
But hey, if you find all that amusing, I'm happy to have returned the favor.
By the by... I'll say it once again, since you definitely suffer the same selective reading has he does... I never knocked the project itself. To the contrary, I have said that from what I saw - both on the site and in the game - it shows alot of promise, but at the time that I tried it, was very clunky. I've said that I think there are very talented people working on the project. What I take issue with is Talad's demeanor here on these forums and, based on the information gathered and presented about him and his practices in the past - all verifiable; at his attempts at spinning and misrepresenting himself and spin-doctoring the issues. See? There's a separation, to me, between the project itself and the person leading it, and I make that distinction. Get it now? Or, do you need me to translate that into some other language that you might understand better?
Run along now... You're not supposed to be here, or didn't you read your hero's request not to read these forums?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The problem is obviously on your end because I'm in-game now.
Hmm.. Gotta beg to differ. While I read this post, and others last night, I was online in LoTRO, MSN and Ventrilo... No issues with any of those - as is always the case. When I've tried to connect to PS - regardless of what time of day or night, no matter what ISP I was using at the time, whether I was on a network or connected directly, wireless connection or ethernet cable, firewall or no... same problem. I've owned two completely different PCs with unique hardware in the time I've tried connecting... no difference. No matter what, PS has refused to cooperate. Meanwhile, Unreal Tournament 2004, Final Fantasy XI, LoTRO, City of Heroes, Saga of Ryzom, IE, MSN, Yahoo Messenger, Adobe's Updater, even other small-time privately funded MMOs... the list goes on... have all worked fine. No matter what other online apps I've used, none have given me a problem. I would literally try logging into PS, get a "failed" message at the login screen. Close that out, immediately try to connect to another online game or app... bam ... connects just fine the first time and stays connected. PS has consistently given me a problem.
And honestly, all things considered, given the nature of the project - that it's "open source", being built entirely on a voluntary basis, using only free resources (as Talad himself has stated), with no backing, and in the face of all the above examples wherein I have zero problems connecting to or staying connected to any other online app, I think it's much more plausible that the issue is on their end. That's not a knock at their devs... Just looking at it realistically.
As for the comment that other guy made, how I was just connecting at the wrong times... errr.. no. Not buying it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
First, my comments were directed at Talad - the project leader - not to any of his adoring cronies. His is the only response I am really interested in reading. But regardless, I'm sure he'll reward you with an autographed photo of him or something, for being so loyal and coming to his defense.
Read: Talad's first language isn't english and so I find it easier to argue with him because he can't put up much of a defense due to his lack of english skills.
That said, your wonderful leader's feeble and, frankly, laughable attempts at saving face by spinning (Something you've yet to really back up. You made the spin claims but, without anything to back them up, they are nothing more than conspiracy theories :P) the mountains of information cited here against him (Mainly from disgruntled players. Those who like PS general stay away from other MMORPGs and so don't visit here.), in this thread and others - not to mention his most obvious retreat from the forums (Retreat is an interesting word when it seems he just got tired of listening to same dribble on and on again)- has been a source of great amusement for us all (You should have seen the IRC channel after reading your posts :P) . Apparently, even Talad realizes that, when people are pointing out contradictions, legally questionable actions (Haven't seen any) and flat out lies he's accountable for in the past(Lies? I haven't seen any), using his own words and verifiable actions to back them up, even he couldn't spin his way out of it(Talad isn't the spin doctor you seem to want him to be, I'm sorry. He was just trying to be understood and correct himself). So he just did the whole last minute "I am retracting my comments because this thread is only intended to hurt the project" damage control thing and got the hell out of Dodge.
But hey, if you find all that amusing, I'm happy to have returned the favor.
By the by... I'll say it once again, since you definitely suffer the same selective reading has he does... I never knocked the project itself. To the contrary, I have said that from what I saw - both on the site and in the game - it shows alot of promise, but at the time that I tried it, was very clunky. I've said that I think there are very talented people working on the project. What I take issue with is Talad's demeanor here on these forums and, based on the information gathered and presented about him and his practices in the past - all verifiable; at his attempts at spinning and misrepresenting himself and spin-doctoring the issues. See? There's a separation, to me, between the project itself and the person leading it, and I make that distinction. Get it now? Or, do you need me to translate that into some other language that you might understand better?
Run along now... You're not supposed to be here, or didn't you read your hero's (Dr. Cox from Scrubs is my hero, actually. God, I wish he were real :P) request not to read these forums?
You seem to fear going up against somebody who can speak the language well enough to argue with you, so, I'll leave you be.