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More and more or Stagnant ?
Arcticblue
Member Posts: 270
Reading on the eve-online forums I come across statements that more and more subscriptions come along every month ... yet the game seems to be stagnant atleast if you see on coldfront.. with about 27-32000 players online a day ... now it is still quite good number but since T20 scandal we have had only 1 day where they did set a record, while before T20 scandal they did set several records a months there where quite abit of whining on these forums because of it.
Ofcourse a valid point would be ... more and more people subscribe but also more and more people cancel, in that case it would mean EVE have become stagnant.. and does not grow.
If it did grow every month there should be more players online now while the graphs on coldfront shows pretty much stagnant.
Also while I did read there I see quite abit of whining about server stability and they had today a unscheduled downtime and some telling they are going to cancel ofcourse (always that), I suppose that could count for the low number today and ofcourse there have been quite a few serverproblems lately and people might have taken a break for a while ? possible...
Comments
some times you got to cut off he oldest petals to make the rose grow.
Well, if you at mmogchart.com, you'll see that Eve's population is steady or very slowly decreasing or increasing. Eve is game where pop. numbers stay pretty stable.
The large population growths always happen around expansions. Besides that I would say that the amount of people that leave due to real life balance out the people coming in. With out the massive advertising budget of the larger MMOs and the lack of a Box to pick up off a shelf means that people have to learn about the game from other sources.
The T20 Scandal from earlier this year and the following months of mud slinging by everyone has tarnished EVE's already niche image for a while. Things have been turning around recently, though, so reception will improve.
We'll have to sit back and see what kind of effect these will have on the game:
Well they haven't finished the latest expansion yet either. I think once the new graphics engine is in A LOT of people will either return to the game or finally try it out. There is also a lot of other things that are coming in with Rev3 that many players will like, such as the faction warfare.
It's summertime. All games are slower this time of year... It's been a trend for eons. Adult gamers have less time to play because their kids are home and stay up later. College gamers play less because they're not at college they're at home working summer jobs or just goofing off with friends. Etc. Been a trend in all internet games dating back to dikumud 1. The fact that it broke a record at all during this time of year was pretty stunning.
Circular logic for the win. Again you're looking at summertime numbers verses the rest of the year. Lets look at the number of subscriptions, shall we?
Last November: 140,000 subscribers, another 30,000 trials: Total accounts: 170,000
This June: 210,000 subscribers, another 30,000 trials: Total Accounts: 240,000
Yeah that looks pretty stagnant
Hmmm interesting.... server instability right after a major patch... who'dathunk.
EVE is still growing, rapidly. The T20 scandal put a dent in things for a bit but everything is pretty much back to normal now. Now... if we hadn't seen a 41% increase in user accounts during that time I might agree with you. But we did din't we. If it weren't for the fact that you're looking at play trends during a typically slow season anyway you might actually have a point. But unfortunately neither is true. The game is growing, rapidly, and it IS typically a slow time of year (playtime wise) for most players.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
For a game growing rapidly (as you state) the game have been pretty stagnant since december... if you check Coldfront.
If I give it a 32 000 top (sundays) in average I suppose I will be very kind.
I suppose there have been holiday since christmas then...
It's the only MMO that hasn't taken a dive yet. It is climbing the charts slowly but surely.
Right after christmas was the T20 scandal which, I already said, did affect players for a while. There was a dip in players, albeit small, at that point. It recovered in the spring and grew. Summertime is typically a slow season due to all the other reasons I mentioned.This supposedly 'stagnant' period also coincides with the release of 3 new MMO's which typically causes players to spread their playtime out as they try the new games being released.
Believe what you want, though. I find it interesting that you're totally ignoring the fact that the number of subscriptions grew by over 40% during this supposedly ''stagnant' period. In the past year and a half WOW, on the other hand, only grew by 21.5% From 7.5 million to 9 million and other MMO's grew by even less, if at all. (Other than the brand new releases that is)
Now, if we come out of the summer/vacation period and the game continues to see flat online numbers? Then I might start being concerned, especially if we see a plateu in number of subscriptions coincide with it. But as of right now while the fact is interesting I dont think it indicates stagnation, not yet.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
/end of thread
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
When CCP's server cluster is handling more than 30K users gameplay is dramatically affected, and many advertised features such as fleet warfare are nearly impossible during these peak times. Some players (depending on where they are located in-game) cannot even log in or play at all above 30K users.
Sunday is the busiest day of the week and when the server cluster regularly remains at over 30K players. Players have been regularly encouraged by CCP for months and months to avoid "popular" systems and content on the weekends.
Bugs that have plagued the game for years or that have been created by "expansions" take a back seat to new content and features designed to promote new subscriptions, many of which also do not work as intended.
CCP's present goal is to increase subscriptions from 200K to 300K. They have allocated a marketing budget of 7Mil this year to achieve that goal. Whenever an established player quits, CCP emails them a 5-day free activation code to get them to come back.
CCP will probably not see any real ability to expand the number of concurrent players from the 35K peak until the new "Trinity" client and supporting back end are completed sometime in mid-late 2008.
You have to judge for yourself whether the game has peaked or not, everything I mentioned above can be corroborated by anyone who actually plays the game and who has access to CCP's forums, where complaint threads about game performance issues are ever increasing.
EVE is a great game and I still enjoy it when I can actually play by avoiding the peak times and teh weekends entirely. IMHO EVE peaked in January 07 right after the last major expansion when it introduced so many new problems and failed to fix old obtrusive ones. The fact it hasn't been able to sustain more than 30-35K players is glaringly evident if you simply look at the last year's activity graph provided here:
eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility
Which is why they're doing a massive overhaul to the game. Revelations 3 is a total upgrade of the engine client side. An overhaul of the graphics as well AND will be splitting the stations off from the systems into their own servers. IE: When you're in a station you are no longer on the same 'node' as the ships that are undocked. That alone will drastically reduce lag in crowded systems. Wont help much in 500x500 fleet battles but systems in empire will see vast improvements from that alone.
The conversion from a very old DX7 engine to a brand new DX9/10 engine will dramatically reduce client side lag on things like the overview, graphics lag, etc because of many reasons outlined in multiple other threads.
Not saying lag will be cured but the changes they have in the pipe should make noticeable improvements to things.
And, frankly, other than in huge fleet battles in 0.0 I haven't noticed any lag at all except when in crowded systems in empire. The lag in game is isolated to a few very overcrowded areas. And the occasional huge fleet battle like what's been going on in 66- and DZ lately. Other than that though? My time in EVE is 99.9% lag free. Then again, I don't live in lagsville (high sec empire).
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
There, I fixed that for you so it reflects more accurately when things may start improving. It is mid-2007 currently by my calendar. Also, you only need a "fleet" of 10 vs 10 currently to experience lag and desync. Lag and desync are also not confined any longer to 2-3 congested systems, anywhere there is more than 40 players at a time are affected.
Which is why at the end of 2007 to early 2008 The old python programming is getting completly replaced with a newer version that i ahve heard is more suited to serving larger populations. I think the reason we have had such problems for so long is becauise the devs were caught by suprise when the population came from around 11,000 online [which thde old Programming could handle] at once to about 20,000 2 months later [which was a little more than the old programming was designed to handle] to 30,000 6 months after that [which has almost broken the old stackless pythons programming].
I remember the old days of 10,000 people online at once where yu could hold 10 v 10 fights with no worries of lag and 200 v 200 fights with MAYBEE a little lag at warp in. Hopefully the combination of reprogramming the core progaming and buying more of that ramsan hardware wil bring those days back.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
Which is why at the end of 2007 to early 2008 The old python programming is getting completly replaced with a newer version that i ahve heard is more suited to serving larger populations. I think the reason we have had such problems for so long is becauise the devs were caught by suprise when the population came from around 11,000 online [which thde old Programming could handle] at once to about 20,000 2 months later [which was a little more than the old programming was designed to handle] to 30,000 6 months after that [which has almost broken the old stackless pythons programming].
The stackless Python upgrade already occurred approx 2 weeks ago. While CCP boasts a 15% overall performance improvement , the actual game performance from an active player's perspective is still obviously getting worse as is proven-out by the regular and numerous unscheduled downtimes (crashes) that now occur about 2-3 times weekly or more.. The major problem CCP claims to be having now, is with their MS SQL server back end. CCP does not know exactly what is wrong with their DB server, and are bringing in a 3rd party (Miracle) to try to figure it out. In the meantime, CCP are throwing some new hardware at the DB server in an effort to shore things up.
I remember the old days too, and not so long ago last year when a 100 vs 100 fight was not only possible, but it was actually happening all over.
(as I am writing this the in-game market is starting to crash in the busier regions.)
There, I fixed that for you so it reflects more accurately when things may start improving. It is mid-2007 currently by my calendar. Also, you only need a "fleet" of 10 vs 10 currently to experience lag and desync. Lag and desync are also not confined any longer to 2-3 congested systems, anywhere there is more than 40 players at a time are affected.
Wrong, and don't edit my posts unless you plan to post factual, accurate, data please.
Revelations 3, which contains ALL of the above changes, is set to release in Q4 2007 or Q1 2008.
Care to try again?
Also: I haven't had a de-synch since the recent patches went in, though I do hear some are still reporting it, I was getting them constantly for a while right after the rev2 patch and now I don't at all. And I was in a 50x50 fleet battle just yesterday and a 14v75 skirmish last night.
I agree with you on the general lag issues but I think the combination of various upgrades will help alleviate it. I don't think it will ever be where we can have 500x500 fleet battles with no lag but I do think we'll get close.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
I've been on the new 14 day trial and I'm going to subscribe. I'm enjoying my time in EVE more than any MMO I've played in a long time. I am alsioo suprised how many other people are just now coming into the game. I wish I was more knowlegable about the number of long term subscribers but it seems that from the chat anyway there are plenty.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
WHile yu are right that there is still some de-sync problems out there thats easilly explained by the fact that 100% of the core database programming just got 100% replaced so considering that there are bound to be some wrinkles to smooth out. So expect more patched to fix those wrinkes before we get the full effect.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
WHile yu are right that there is still some de-sync problems out there thats easilly explained by the fact that 100% of the core database programming just got 100% replaced so considering that there are bound to be some wrinkles to smooth out. So expect more patched to fix those wrinkes before we get the full effect.
Wrong, the DB server hardware ONLY got replaced and M$ SQL got upgraded from v2003 to v2005 SP2. No database programming whatsoever was replaced. We are already experiencing the "full effect" of this upgrade.
Last night in MHC-R3 there was a fleet battle of aprox 200 ships. The server lagged out so bad that module activations required 5+ minutes and FPS dropped to 1/min
, yet CCP still advertises that "massive fleet battles" are possible when that hasn't been true for almost 8 months or longer.
When exactly does CCP ever hit their target estimates for major content releases? The DEVs themselves have posted several times the new graphics engine won't even be viable until at least 2nd quarter of next year (2008). The new graphics engine is the heart of the "Trinity" release. Until we actually can use this new and entirely rewritten client/server code, the game has PEAKED. There is no way CCP are going to hit their end of 2007 timetable when the game is in such a bad state currently, and the devs have to work on fixing it vs. working on the new engine.
Revelations v2.3 is scheduled for near the end of this year. Note, this is still a 2.x release and not the anticipated 3.0 we are talking about. v2.3 will bring new features to the existing game client only.
If you are a new player, you probably won't experience a lot of the big problems the current game has. If you are a 2+ year old vet, you have been watching the game go downhill slowly, because the advanced content is bugged or does not work as intended because it simply cannot handle the server load after 30K people try to play. Level 4 missions lag/desync to where they are almost unrunnable. Just know beforehand you will have to become a "customer" to even see the known issues page for the game, CCP likes to keep that information private.
The argument regarding CCP retaining players for 9 months would be a great one if it didn't take 6-7 months for a new EVE player to advance to where they can start accessing the game's "premium" content. Unlike most MMOGs you actually have to invest in your character, and can lose everything because there is real risk and consequences to "dying". It is infuriating to lose a year's investment to faulty game mechanics (over and over), and this is driving a lot of older players away. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the older players who were creating most of the game's documentation. That's right, players write the documentation, and even have to host it themselves because the online wiki CCP promised over a year ago has yet to materialize.
Angry posts like this one have been fairly common since Jan 2007:
myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp
I mentioned before, you have to make your own assessment whether the game has peaked or not. I stand by my assessment that the game has peaked. It has. If you don't mind signing-up now and paying for a year before EVE works as advertised, that is your choice, and you will probably get a few months of good enjoyment before the major problems affect you. My intention here is to give a "big picture" view of the stuff you cannot see or do as a new user, and not simply act as a fanboi trying to make points with mmorpg.com.
WHile yu are right that there is still some de-sync problems out there thats easilly explained by the fact that 100% of the core database programming just got 100% replaced so considering that there are bound to be some wrinkles to smooth out. So expect more patched to fix those wrinkes before we get the full effect.
Wrong, the DB server hardware ONLY got replaced and M$ SQL got upgraded from v2003 to v2005 SP2. No database programming whatsoever was replaced. We are already experiencing the "full effect" of this upgrade.
Last night in MHC-R3 there was a fleet battle of aprox 200 ships. The server lagged out so bad that module activations required 5+ minutes and FPS dropped to 1/min
, yet CCP still advertises that "massive fleet battles" are possible when that hasn't been true for almost 8 months or longer.
When exactly does CCP ever hit their target estimates for major content releases? The DEVs themselves have posted several times the new graphics engine won't even be viable until at least 2nd quarter of next year (2008). The new graphics engine is the heart of the "Trinity" release. Until we actually can use this new and entirely rewritten client/server code, the game has PEAKED. There is no way CCP are going to hit their end of 2007 timetable when the game is in such a bad state currently, and the devs have to work on fixing it vs. working on the new engine.
Revelations v2.3 is scheduled for near the end of this year. Note, this is still a 2.x release and not the anticipated 3.0 we are talking about. v2.3 will bring new features to the existing game client only.
If you are a new player, you probably won't experience a lot of the big problems the current game has. If you are a 2+ year old vet, you have been watching the game go downhill slowly, because the advanced content is bugged or does not work as intended because it simply cannot handle the server load after 30K people try to play. Level 4 missions lag/desync to where they are almost unrunnable. Just know beforehand you will have to become a "customer" to even see the known issues page for the game, CCP likes to keep that information private.
The argument regarding CCP retaining players for 9 months would be a great one if it didn't take 6-7 months for a new EVE player to advance to where they can start accessing the game's "premium" content. Unlike most MMOGs you actually have to invest in your character, and can lose everything because there is real risk and consequences to "dying". It is infuriating to lose a year's investment to faulty game mechanics (over and over), and this is driving a lot of older players away. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the older players who were creating most of the game's documentation. That's right, players write the documentation, and even have to host it themselves because the online wiki CCP promised over a year ago has yet to materialize.
Angry posts like this one have been fairly common since Jan 2007:
myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp
I mentioned before, you have to make your own assessment whether the game has peaked or not. I stand by my assessment that the game has peaked. It has. If you don't mind signing-up now and paying for a year before EVE works as advertised, that is your choice, and you will probably get a few months of good enjoyment before the major problems affect you. My intention here is to give a "big picture" view of the stuff you cannot see or do as a new user, and not simply act as a fanboi trying to make points with mmorpg.com.
Proof or STFU.Where have Devs stated that Rev 2.3 wont be out until late 2007? The Devs posted that the new graphics release wont be vialbe until at least Q2 2008? Again, Proof or stfu.
You said "When exactly does CCP ever hit their target estimates for major content releases?" well lets see... Rev. 1 and Rev. 2 where both released EARLIER then CCP initailly stated.
"There is no way CCP are going to hit their end of 2007 timetable when the game is in such a bad state currently, and the devs have to work on fixing it vs. working on the new engine." - This statement shows your complete lack of information or your supidity... or both. If you troll the Eve-O forums as much as you do here you would know that there are teams working on different aspects of the game. Meaning that devs working on fixing issues with the current build will not have any impact on the devs working on the new engine and vice versa.
As Taram said, Get your facts strait.
WHile yu are right that there is still some de-sync problems out there thats easilly explained by the fact that 100% of the core database programming just got 100% replaced so considering that there are bound to be some wrinkles to smooth out. So expect more patched to fix those wrinkes before we get the full effect.
Wrong, the DB server hardware ONLY got replaced and M$ SQL got upgraded from v2003 to v2005 SP2. No database programming whatsoever was replaced. We are already experiencing the "full effect" of this upgrade.
Last night in MHC-R3 there was a fleet battle of aprox 200 ships. The server lagged out so bad that module activations required 5+ minutes and FPS dropped to 1/min
, yet CCP still advertises that "massive fleet battles" are possible when that hasn't been true for almost 8 months or longer.
When exactly does CCP ever hit their target estimates for major content releases? The DEVs themselves have posted several times the new graphics engine won't even be viable until at least 2nd quarter of next year (2008). The new graphics engine is the heart of the "Trinity" release. Until we actually can use this new and entirely rewritten client/server code, the game has PEAKED. There is no way CCP are going to hit their end of 2007 timetable when the game is in such a bad state currently, and the devs have to work on fixing it vs. working on the new engine.
Revelations v2.3 is scheduled for near the end of this year. Note, this is still a 2.x release and not the anticipated 3.0 we are talking about. v2.3 will bring new features to the existing game client only.
If you are a new player, you probably won't experience a lot of the big problems the current game has. If you are a 2+ year old vet, you have been watching the game go downhill slowly, because the advanced content is bugged or does not work as intended because it simply cannot handle the server load after 30K people try to play. Level 4 missions lag/desync to where they are almost unrunnable. Just know beforehand you will have to become a "customer" to even see the known issues page for the game, CCP likes to keep that information private.
The argument regarding CCP retaining players for 9 months would be a great one if it didn't take 6-7 months for a new EVE player to advance to where they can start accessing the game's "premium" content. Unlike most MMOGs you actually have to invest in your character, and can lose everything because there is real risk and consequences to "dying". It is infuriating to lose a year's investment to faulty game mechanics (over and over), and this is driving a lot of older players away. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the older players who were creating most of the game's documentation. That's right, players write the documentation, and even have to host it themselves because the online wiki CCP promised over a year ago has yet to materialize.
Angry posts like this one have been fairly common since Jan 2007:
myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp
I mentioned before, you have to make your own assessment whether the game has peaked or not. I stand by my assessment that the game has peaked. It has. If you don't mind signing-up now and paying for a year before EVE works as advertised, that is your choice, and you will probably get a few months of good enjoyment before the major problems affect you. My intention here is to give a "big picture" view of the stuff you cannot see or do as a new user, and not simply act as a fanboi trying to make points with mmorpg.com.
I wish you would stop trolling here most of your facts are baseless and country to evidenced comments from devs.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
WHile yu are right that there is still some de-sync problems out there thats easilly explained by the fact that 100% of the core database programming just got 100% replaced so considering that there are bound to be some wrinkles to smooth out. So expect more patched to fix those wrinkes before we get the full effect.
Wrong, the DB server hardware ONLY got replaced and M$ SQL got upgraded from v2003 to v2005 SP2. No database programming whatsoever was replaced. We are already experiencing the "full effect" of this upgrade.
Last night in MHC-R3 there was a fleet battle of aprox 200 ships. The server lagged out so bad that module activations required 5+ minutes and FPS dropped to 1/min
, yet CCP still advertises that "massive fleet battles" are possible when that hasn't been true for almost 8 months or longer.
When exactly does CCP ever hit their target estimates for major content releases? The DEVs themselves have posted several times the new graphics engine won't even be viable until at least 2nd quarter of next year (2008). The new graphics engine is the heart of the "Trinity" release. Until we actually can use this new and entirely rewritten client/server code, the game has PEAKED. There is no way CCP are going to hit their end of 2007 timetable when the game is in such a bad state currently, and the devs have to work on fixing it vs. working on the new engine.
Revelations v2.3 is scheduled for near the end of this year. Note, this is still a 2.x release and not the anticipated 3.0 we are talking about. v2.3 will bring new features to the existing game client only.
If you are a new player, you probably won't experience a lot of the big problems the current game has. If you are a 2+ year old vet, you have been watching the game go downhill slowly, because the advanced content is bugged or does not work as intended because it simply cannot handle the server load after 30K people try to play. Level 4 missions lag/desync to where they are almost unrunnable. Just know beforehand you will have to become a "customer" to even see the known issues page for the game, CCP likes to keep that information private.
The argument regarding CCP retaining players for 9 months would be a great one if it didn't take 6-7 months for a new EVE player to advance to where they can start accessing the game's "premium" content. Unlike most MMOGs you actually have to invest in your character, and can lose everything because there is real risk and consequences to "dying". It is infuriating to lose a year's investment to faulty game mechanics (over and over), and this is driving a lot of older players away. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the older players who were creating most of the game's documentation. That's right, players write the documentation, and even have to host it themselves because the online wiki CCP promised over a year ago has yet to materialize.
Angry posts like this one have been fairly common since Jan 2007:
myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp
I mentioned before, you have to make your own assessment whether the game has peaked or not. I stand by my assessment that the game has peaked. It has. If you don't mind signing-up now and paying for a year before EVE works as advertised, that is your choice, and you will probably get a few months of good enjoyment before the major problems affect you. My intention here is to give a "big picture" view of the stuff you cannot see or do as a new user, and not simply act as a fanboi trying to make points with mmorpg.com.
Proof or STFU.Where have Devs stated that Rev 2.3 wont be out until late 2007? The Devs posted that the new graphics release wont be vialbe until at least Q2 2008? Again, Proof or stfu.
You said "When exactly does CCP ever hit their target estimates for major content releases?" well lets see... Rev. 1 and Rev. 2 where both released EARLIER then CCP initailly stated.
"There is no way CCP are going to hit their end of 2007 timetable when the game is in such a bad state currently, and the devs have to work on fixing it vs. working on the new engine." - This statement shows your complete lack of information or your supidity... or both. If you troll the Eve-O forums as much as you do here you would know that there are teams working on different aspects of the game. Meaning that devs working on fixing issues with the current build will not have any impact on the devs working on the new engine and vice versa.
As Taram said, Get your facts strait.
Troll much?
ve3d.ign.com/articles/707/707796p1.html
"The Path to Kali will begin in Q2 2006 with the first release, and end in 2007 with the factional warfare implementation."
www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/643/gameID/14
"The releases are planned for the 2nd quarter of this year[2006], the end of the year and in mid 2007, players will reach Kali and prepare for “Maximum Warfare,” the ultimate space battle, the result of which will shift faction boundaries on each region (server)."
myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp
"Kali One Release - September 2006
Kali Two Release - December 2006
Factional Warfare. Nothing else.
Kali Three Release - April 2007
Our final graphics engine upgrades"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVE_Online
"Revelations III CCP expects to publish the final part of this expansion during 2007."
There is still no factional warfare yet which was supposed to be in Revelations/Kali 2 (Revelations 2 was released in late June 2007 and not Dec 2006 as planned), and the Q2 2006 (Revelations 1) release didn't happen until Q4 (December 2006). So that just leaves Revelations/Kali 3, which CCP only has 4 months left to get out and working before the end of this year.
If CCP can deliver Revelations/Kali3 at or by the end of this year, it will only leave another 6 months before it is mid 2008. Maybe they can rush Trinity out before that, but it sure is not looking that way. I tried to find the post I read from just last week where a CCP dev talked about some of the new client development stuff taking longer, it has either been removed or I just can't find it again using CCP's wonderful forum software. If I can find it again I am happy to share.
"If you troll the Eve-O forums as much as you do here"
Wow! I am an old-time troller here after 4 posts!
I neither lack information or intelligence, something I cannot say about you, because I don't know you, nor did you produce any information to the contrary other than a proof or STFU rant. I also find it very telling that time lines are the only thing you have issue with in regard to my post(s) or that I may not understand the concept of "teams" in regard to software development. If you have any links to info stating that Trinity will be here 4Q 2007 and not mid 2008 please by all means produce them. The issue here was if EVE had "peaked" or not and I still stand by my assessment/opinion until CCP can prove otherwise by demonstrating far greater than 35K concurrent player numbers while providing a gaming experience that will work on any day of the week, and not just at non-peak times.