Seriously, i have played probably 20-30 different asian mmorpgs in my days, both Free to play and monthly fee ones. But now i just gotten enought, i cant really belive that some people actually enjoy playing them? what is fun in klicking around and literary sit and watch your character kill mobs, while you press a self buff once each 30 minute and press a potion each 4 second?
Kill 10 mobs to gain level 2 kill 15 mobs to gain level 3 kill 20 mobs to gain level 4 kill 25 mobs to gain level 5, and get a lame self-buff skille that actually have no use (but with a pretty animation)
repeat. Not to mention that PvP is a total JOKE in these types of games. Whoever that runs out of potions first die. There is absolutley NO moment of skill or challange involved, just mind numbling, slow grinding. each class has about 3-4 skills total, and there is absolutley no depth, no class roles or anything. and all asian grinders are literary the same game with just different textures. Same screwed up echonomic, same dull skill system, same controllers and crappy menu system, same boring itemization, with just a new set each 3 or 4 level.
And that description is profoundly different from any western MMO...........how?
You forgot to add IMHO to everything you said.
Yep thats exactly how you play Western MMO's the OP is just in denial.
No it isnt. Show me a asian MMO except FFXI with instances, PvP ranking/honor system and a complex class and crafting system.
With instances? Why the heck would you want to be taken OUT of the gameworld in a seperate gameworld?
A pvp ranking honor system? No, most asian MMO's involve around clan politics and outside world pvp. Most of them don't rely on a honor ranking system, they have a little more depth to that.
In Ro, the classes are just the basics. Its the only game I know where a priest can become a damage dealer if you wish to do so, a Paladin can become the main healer, or the damage dealer. This is all possible because of RO's stats, skill and equipment card customization. Its probably more deep then any other western MMO class system.
Crafting, you're not going to find much of it in asian MMO's. I can point you to some, but you probably never have heard of them and you're unable to play in english.
this is a strong counter to the argument the OP had presented that Asian MMOs lack depth I must admit. I have no other comments besides that. interesting topic
For the same reason people love to grind levels in WoW and somehow think it's content.
noone loves to grind in wow. grinding is just something you have to do, to be able to enjoy the fun parts of the game. Asian grind mmos are 100% grind. The game is about grinding, grinding IS the game, there are no other aspects. you grind to gain a high level to be able to grind harder mobs. ive been trying to say this for two pages now, and so far noone have replied to it. for the love of god, please stop making comments like "WoW is also about grinding", and try to read my posts.
Asian Grind MMO's are 100% Grind? I only know 1 or 2 Asian MMO's that are all about grind.
Ok sure... i might be overreacting a bit, but please, you should agree when i say that generaly, asian mmos contain more "grind" than western ones.
No, I don't agree with you. Sure, it takes longer to reach a cap level in the average asian MMO, but take a game like WoW. you reached the cap, now what? Do repetive dungeons to collect gear, or start a new char. thats just as much of a grind imo.
Or you can form a arena team and compete in ladders in tournament. And who said my MMO of choice was WoW? my MMO of choice is either EvE or Vanguard, or join a PvE raiding guild and compete in the PvE progress race. If you play the game to get loot then sure it might seem as a grind for epics, but most of the wow players play it for the challanges and progress, boss encounters that actually require CORDINATION and initiatives, rather than just mindless attackspam where you dont even have to move around during the encounters.
As i said, WoW is not my favourite MMO of all time, im not even sure if its on my top 5. i am just using it as an example since most people have played it and know what i am talking about. Now, Gameloading, i have no idea about how much you have played in endgame pve in wow, but even the first bosses in kharazan in wow are far more complex and require far more cordination and moving than any boss in any asian MMO.
If you're just going to fight in an area...why not just play any FPS? Its the same thing. Raiding is avaible in asian MMO's as well.
Far more coordination then any boss in any Asian MMO. To start with,there are over 200 asian MMO's. Unless you played all of them and raided in all of them, that statement is just one big assumption. Second, I have to disagree with that as well. Lineage 2 features Raid bosses that require 200 people that really require a lot of thought to be taken down.
For the same reason people love to grind levels in WoW and somehow think it's content.
noone loves to grind in wow. grinding is just something you have to do, to be able to enjoy the fun parts of the game. Asian grind mmos are 100% grind. The game is about grinding, grinding IS the game, there are no other aspects. you grind to gain a high level to be able to grind harder mobs. ive been trying to say this for two pages now, and so far noone have replied to it. for the love of god, please stop making comments like "WoW is also about grinding", and try to read my posts.
Asian Grind MMO's are 100% Grind? I only know 1 or 2 Asian MMO's that are all about grind.
Ok sure... i might be overreacting a bit, but please, you should agree when i say that generaly, asian mmos contain more "grind" than western ones.
No, I don't agree with you. Sure, it takes longer to reach a cap level in the average asian MMO, but take a game like WoW. you reached the cap, now what? Do repetive dungeons to collect gear, or start a new char. thats just as much of a grind imo.
That's why games should be about content, not grinding kills to gain some imaginary experience killing a particular lvl mob. Granted it's all imaginary...but how can anyone truly have fun grinding. For the first few lvls sure. It teaches you how to handle mobs and gets you used to the way you interact in the world.
To grind for majority of the lvls is nuts these days. All it does is keep someone glued to their chair trying to cap out(which is what the creators want I guess, and why people trash them for it). Better xp should be given for questing or completing instances. That way those who hate grinding don't have to do it. Problem with doing that tho----> Take WoW, you have to train you sword skills up....only way is to grind kills.
NEED MORE SKILL BASED GAMES THAT ARE FOCUSED ON STORY and END GAME.
...or, maybe....it could be, most asians are not playing in their homes, most are collectively playing in iCafe's. This is just like the late 70's-late80's arcades heyday. same thing.
what did you do in an arcade( for those old enough to remember)...very very few people stood at one game endlessly. most, meandered around, socializing, beating up others, smoking(and whatnot), flirting, running back and forth, goofing off, buying soda's, talking.....you get the idea. a cacaphony of chaos.
The cafes look exactly like this, short shallow gameplay with longevity'(grinding") seems to be the norm for the cafe'crowd(s). They simply dont care. The shallow gameplay allows for one to get up from his comp and chase after some girl that just put ice down his back as she runs off giggling into the girls bathroom. people switching back and forth playin accounts, filling in..etc....
The Cafes, for the most part(i know populace in Lineage, but look at the asian population as a whole!..yeesh!), are NOT filled with a bunch of "Cartmans' playing wow , self-installed on a seat, for days on end - screaming ...'maa-a-a-a-a-h-h-hmmmm", <--waiting for the bedpan scene to commence.
Although..yes their are some... a few.
very few.
------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ <insert gloat of ubar toon here> <insert random game here> <insert gloat of ubar toon here> <insert gloat of ubar toon here> <insert random game here> --------------------------- <insert witty anecdote here> <political/religious agenda here>
See my point now? Raid bosses in Lineage 2 are just ordinary mobs that have a little more hit points and hit a bit harder, that require a lot of people to be taken down. Some of the bosses in that vid where even kited! yeah you heard right, they KITED a RAID BOSS to death
The Raid bosses in WoW have unique encounters, the bosses have special abilities that actually require the players to do other things than just using their class skills, like moving around to avoid certain aoes, clicking certain terrain objects in the area at a certain time to prevent bosses from gaining certain benefits etc. that is what i call dynamic and interactive boss fights.
Now for example, take an encounter like maghteridon, where 5 players in the raid have to run out each 1 minute and activate 5 cubes at the same time, to interrupt him from casting his fire nova that instantly wipes the raid. that is a simple example, but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around. in the wow encounters, people need to think. i really wish you good luck in trying to kill any wow raid boss by kiting it without a single tank or healer, like the dudes did in that L2 video.
Sure, you can keep on disagreeing with what i say just cause you feel an urge to, or you can actually admit that i have a point, at least when it comes to western VS asian games in terms of raid boss complexity.
See my point now? Raid bosses in Lineage 2 are just ordinary mobs that have a little more hit points and hit a bit harder, that require a lot of people to be taken down. Some of the bosses in that vid where even kited! yeah you heard right, they KITED a RAID BOSS
The Raid bosses in WoW have unique encounters, the bosses have special abilities that actually require the players to do other things than just using their class skills, like moving around to avoid certain aoes, clicking certain terrain objects in the area at a certain time to prevent bosses from gaining certain benefits etc. that is what i call dynamic and interactive boss fights.
Now for example, take an encounter like maghteridon, where 5 players in the raid have to run out each 1 minute and activate 5 cubes at the same time, to interrupt him from casting his fire nova that instantly wipes the raid. that is a simple example, but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around. in the wow encounters, people need to think. i really wish you good luck in trying to kill any wow raid boss by kiting it without a single tank or healer, like the dudes did in that L2 video.
Olie, just do yourself a favor and don't post about things you don't know anymore. You obviously never particupated in the Lineage 2 raids. There are different forms of raids in Lineage 2's, some of them are only a small group but as I pointed out in a different post, the big raids in Lineage 2 require 200 people. The biggest in WoW is 40 people, and the new raids have been dumbed down to 25 people. Its pointless to only point towards one boss and say the entire game is like that. As I'm sure you know, there are raids in WoW as well that are little else then "Tank & Spank".
Untill you actually played the raid boss encounters in Lineage 2, you're just posting a lot of assumptions. I mean,
"but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around"
look at that. its just downright wrong. Play the game first, untill you do, you're just talking out of your ass.
See my point now? Raid bosses in Lineage 2 are just ordinary mobs that have a little more hit points and hit a bit harder, that require a lot of people to be taken down. Some of the bosses in that vid where even kited! yeah you heard right, they KITED a RAID BOSS
The Raid bosses in WoW have unique encounters, the bosses have special abilities that actually require the players to do other things than just using their class skills, like moving around to avoid certain aoes, clicking certain terrain objects in the area at a certain time to prevent bosses from gaining certain benefits etc. that is what i call dynamic and interactive boss fights.
Now for example, take an encounter like maghteridon, where 5 players in the raid have to run out each 1 minute and activate 5 cubes at the same time, to interrupt him from casting his fire nova that instantly wipes the raid. that is a simple example, but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around. in the wow encounters, people need to think. i really wish you good luck in trying to kill any wow raid boss by kiting it without a single tank or healer, like the dudes did in that L2 video.
Olie, just do yourself a favor and don't post about things you don't know anymore. You obviously never particupated in the Lineage 2 raids. There are different forms of raids in Lineage 2's, some of them are only a small group but as I pointed out in a different post, the big raids in Lineage 2 require 200 people. The biggest in WoW is 40 people, and the new raids have been dumbed down to 25 people. Its pointless to only point towards one boss and say the entire game is like that. As I'm sure you know, there are raids in WoW as well that are little else then "Tank & Spank".
Untill you actually played the raid boss encounters in Lineage 2, you're just posting a lot of assumptions.
Amount of players needed to take down the encounter doesnt have any connection with difficulity level. And please, give me an example of a L2 boss that is not a tank and spank, and tell me what else there is in the encounter, what players need to do etc.
and please, are you seriously trying to say that the endgame raid bosses in Lineage are more complex and require more cordination than the ones in wow...?
and give me one, just one example of a 25 man boss in wow that is a tank and spank fight
Originally posted by Olle.k.90 Raid bosses in Lineage 2:
See my point now? Raid bosses in Lineage 2 are just ordinary mobs that have a little more hit points and hit a bit harder, that require a lot of people to be taken down. Some of the bosses in that vid where even kited! yeah you heard right, they KITED a RAID BOSS
The Raid bosses in WoW have unique encounters, the bosses have special abilities that actually require the players to do other things than just using their class skills, like moving around to avoid certain aoes, clicking certain terrain objects in the area at a certain time to prevent bosses from gaining certain benefits etc. that is what i call dynamic and interactive boss fights.
Now for example, take an encounter like maghteridon, where 5 players in the raid have to run out each 1 minute and activate 5 cubes at the same time, to interrupt him from casting his fire nova that instantly wipes the raid. that is a simple example, but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around. in the wow encounters, people need to think. i really wish you good luck in trying to kill any wow raid boss by kiting it without a single tank or healer, like the dudes did in that L2 video.
Sure, you can keep on disagreeing with what i say just cause you feel an urge to, or you can actually admit that i have a point, at least when it comes to western VS asian games in terms of raid boss complexity.
You're comparing apples with oranges when it comes to end game of both games. The main end game for Lineage 2 is and has always been PvP battles where as the big end game for WoW are PvE raids. The amount of diversity and shifting tactics in L2 PvP along with the politics is 100x more complex then any WoW raid.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Seriously, i have played probably 20-30 different asian mmorpgs in my days, both Free to play and monthly fee ones. But now i just gotten enought, i cant really belive that some people actually enjoy playing them? what is fun in klicking around and literary sit and watch your character kill mobs, while you press a self buff once each 30 minute and press a potion each 4 second?
Kill 10 mobs to gain level 2 kill 15 mobs to gain level 3 kill 20 mobs to gain level 4 kill 25 mobs to gain level 5, and get a lame self-buff skille that actually have no use (but with a pretty animation)
repeat. Not to mention that PvP is a total JOKE in these types of games. Whoever that runs out of potions first die. There is absolutley NO moment of skill or challange involved, just mind numbling, slow grinding. each class has about 3-4 skills total, and there is absolutley no depth, no class roles or anything. and all asian grinders are literary the same game with just different textures. Same screwed up echonomic, same dull skill system, same controllers and crappy menu system, same boring itemization, with just a new set each 3 or 4 level.
I like it because its free and it gives me a taste of asian culture. Gives me what the asian market is playing now and i want to go to korea/japan and it makes me feel closer to my destination! weird as it may seem. Ive yet to find a good one though. i usually un install within a day or 2. o well.
Seriously, i have played probably 20-30 different asian mmorpgs in my days, both Free to play and monthly fee ones. But now i just gotten enought, i cant really belive that some people actually enjoy playing them? what is fun in klicking around and literary sit and watch your character kill mobs, while you press a self buff once each 30 minute and press a potion each 4 second?
Kill 10 mobs to gain level 2 kill 15 mobs to gain level 3 kill 20 mobs to gain level 4 kill 25 mobs to gain level 5, and get a lame self-buff skille that actually have no use (but with a pretty animation)
repeat. Not to mention that PvP is a total JOKE in these types of games. Whoever that runs out of potions first die. There is absolutley NO moment of skill or challange involved, just mind numbling, slow grinding. each class has about 3-4 skills total, and there is absolutley no depth, no class roles or anything. and all asian grinders are literary the same game with just different textures. Same screwed up echonomic, same dull skill system, same controllers and crappy menu system, same boring itemization, with just a new set each 3 or 4 level.
I like it because its free and it gives me a taste of asian culture. Gives me what the asian market is playing now and i want to go to korea/japan and it makes me feel closer to my destination! weird as it may seem. Ive yet to find a good one though. i usually un install within a day or 2. o well.
if you really wanna taste some japanese culture you should buy a nintendo DS its like the biggest thing in the world there atm
Seriously, i have played probably 20-30 different asian mmorpgs in my days, both Free to play and monthly fee ones. But now i just gotten enought, i cant really belive that some people actually enjoy playing them? what is fun in klicking around and literary sit and watch your character kill mobs, while you press a self buff once each 30 minute and press a potion each 4 second?
Kill 10 mobs to gain level 2 kill 15 mobs to gain level 3 kill 20 mobs to gain level 4 kill 25 mobs to gain level 5, and get a lame self-buff skille that actually have no use (but with a pretty animation)
repeat. Not to mention that PvP is a total JOKE in these types of games. Whoever that runs out of potions first die. There is absolutley NO moment of skill or challange involved, just mind numbling, slow grinding. each class has about 3-4 skills total, and there is absolutley no depth, no class roles or anything. and all asian grinders are literary the same game with just different textures. Same screwed up echonomic, same dull skill system, same controllers and crappy menu system, same boring itemization, with just a new set each 3 or 4 level.
I like it because its free and it gives me a taste of asian culture. Gives me what the asian market is playing now and i want to go to korea/japan and it makes me feel closer to my destination! weird as it may seem. Ive yet to find a good one though. i usually un install within a day or 2. o well.
if you really wanna taste some japanese culture you should buy a nintendo DS its like the biggest thing in the world there atm
You got that right, nintendo rules in Japan. My sister has one and i bought some games to play on it like Castlevania PoR, Jump Superstars import, and Animal Crossing. I wanna get some more games though, havent played it in a while. Maybe that cooking game, or phoenix right
Originally posted by Olle.k.90 What is important to me is how fun and challanging the actual pvp battles are. And you must admit that PvP in wow takes much more cordination and movement than the average korean MMO. WoW combat is very dynamic, where movement and cordination is just as important as spells and skills. Lineage 2 etc is just click on a player, stand in melee and unload your abilites/pots. noone is going to try to kite you, fear you around or crowd control you, since the very limited game mechanics doesnt allow that kind of dynamic gameplay
It's pretty obvious to me and anyone else that has played Lineage II for any length of time that you never played it for more than a week tops. In Lineage II the combat is all about knowing not only your characters abilities but those of your opponent(s) as well. What works well on one class will get you totally owned by another. In lineage if you just stand and spam skills like your saying you'll last about 5 1/2 seconds in any fight if that. Also in Lineage PvP effects every aspect of the gaming world right down to how much something will cost you from a vender. Through PvP some players become heroes and others become villians that are known server wide by most everyone without a PvP ranking system. Crafting in games? Please, I'd rather not have a game were I have to put 3 items in a box and press combine for hours (and in some games days) on end just so I can finally make something some noob might buy if I'm lucky. Crafting in most games is a worst grind than anything that has come out of Korea. So you like WoW.....Fine we get it but before you start slamming a whole country for their games maybe you should play a few of them first because it's obvious you didn't play Lineage II.
___________________________________________________________ Kirithia - 7X Phantom Ranger on the Bartz server
so you play Lin 2? I would get into it but i hear botting and im afraid the community hasnt kept itself and it will be desserted. You have probably been playing early on and are in the lvl bracket with a good sized ammount of players.
See my point now? Raid bosses in Lineage 2 are just ordinary mobs that have a little more hit points and hit a bit harder, that require a lot of people to be taken down. Some of the bosses in that vid where even kited! yeah you heard right, they KITED a RAID BOSS
The Raid bosses in WoW have unique encounters, the bosses have special abilities that actually require the players to do other things than just using their class skills, like moving around to avoid certain aoes, clicking certain terrain objects in the area at a certain time to prevent bosses from gaining certain benefits etc. that is what i call dynamic and interactive boss fights.
Now for example, take an encounter like maghteridon, where 5 players in the raid have to run out each 1 minute and activate 5 cubes at the same time, to interrupt him from casting his fire nova that instantly wipes the raid. that is a simple example, but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around. in the wow encounters, people need to think. i really wish you good luck in trying to kill any wow raid boss by kiting it without a single tank or healer, like the dudes did in that L2 video.
Olie, just do yourself a favor and don't post about things you don't know anymore. You obviously never particupated in the Lineage 2 raids. There are different forms of raids in Lineage 2's, some of them are only a small group but as I pointed out in a different post, the big raids in Lineage 2 require 200 people. The biggest in WoW is 40 people, and the new raids have been dumbed down to 25 people. Its pointless to only point towards one boss and say the entire game is like that. As I'm sure you know, there are raids in WoW as well that are little else then "Tank & Spank".
Untill you actually played the raid boss encounters in Lineage 2, you're just posting a lot of assumptions.
Amount of players needed to take down the encounter doesnt have any connection with difficulity level. And please, give me an example of a L2 boss that is not a tank and spank, and tell me what else there is in the encounter, what players need to do etc.
and please, are you seriously trying to say that the endgame raid bosses in Lineage are more complex and require more cordination than the ones in wow...?
and give me one, just one example of a 25 man boss in wow that is a tank and spank fight
First of all, players need to set their groups right, this is very, very important, and it requires more then just putting the priest with the tank. Second of all, it requires you to put everyone in the right position. If you get hit in an AoE, you're dead, and you're being hit by AoE's constantly. Next you have to chose which characters will ressurect other players through ressurection scrolls. If you think healers should do this, then you are dead wrong.
Heck, even before the raid begins it requires a lot of dedication from multiple alliances, to collect the items required.
Trying to say that the endgame raid bosses in Lineage 2 are more complext then WoW? sorry, but what do you know? You're just guessing, you never played fought any of the high end raid bosses in L2.
Its obvious you're just not willing to step away from your statement in the OP, no matter how much people explain how wrong it is. You're unable to look at this from a subjective point of view.
edit: About WoW's tank & spank, many of the old 40 man bosses were little else then tank & spank.
Its obvious you're just not willing to step away from your statement in the OP, no matter how much people explain how wrong it is. You're unable to look at this from a subjective point of view. edit: About WoW's tank & spank, many of the old 40 man bosses were little else then tank & spank.
No, i bring examples and evidence, all you do is to say "i disagree, (but i am not going to give you any examples or put up any evidence to prove my point)"
maybe on the first time you kill a Mob/Named/Mini-boss/Boss/etc..whether it be a creature that has several attacks or just a bunch of hp'sd or both...its all the same. even back in eq1, when you, had to go thru a-l-l these motions of 'fake'buffing to 'counter' some of the dragon's attacks and debuffing...was just - funnay, to say the least...
Do we have any AI in Mmorpgs?
its all just , 'follow-the-norm', 'do-the-same', over and over.....may be fun the first time...but thats it..
once you fight something once..(usually in beta or test server) everyone is 'TOLD" how to fight it and what to expect anyway...if you DONT do what your told....your chastised,ridiculed and cast aside...lol...some mmorpg huh....that goes for almost ALL of them.
Would be nice if mobs...no wait..strike that..if simply bosses had some "ReaL' AI in mmorpgs.
but we wont be seeing that anytime soon?.....no?
until then..its all the same.... the skill needed, or anything remotely there-of resembling the skill needed, to take down a boss...is nary a whisper of a fleeting thought.
( edit- i think the Crappy AI that Online play has NOT offered for eons, is the main reason why people are becoming more and more addicted and luving the idea(s) of playing PvP and RvR .)
it is becoming more popular lately.
woot
------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ <insert gloat of ubar toon here> <insert random game here> <insert gloat of ubar toon here> <insert gloat of ubar toon here> <insert random game here> --------------------------- <insert witty anecdote here> <political/religious agenda here>
Its obvious you're just not willing to step away from your statement in the OP, no matter how much people explain how wrong it is. You're unable to look at this from a subjective point of view. edit: About WoW's tank & spank, many of the old 40 man bosses were little else then tank & spank.
No, i bring examples and evidence, all you do is to say "i disagree, (but i am not going to give you any examples or put up any evidence to prove my point)"
I'm sorry, what evidence? You mean your incorrect claims about Lineage 2 you just made up?or the incorrect claims about asian MMO's that you made up? or the "Its better because think it is?" You didn't bring any evidence whatsoever.
None of these games take skill to play, your giving yourself to much credit if you think WoW takes skill just because you have to run around as you do your auto attack sequence. Theres no actual dodging in the game since the netcode is horrible, except for maybe a few aoe which are few and far between. Maybe your all confusing the games with something like diablo 2 where ACTUAL skill takes place and where dodging isnt calculated using math.
Not to say its not fun but if you actually think your accomplishing something you need to rethink what genre of game your playing.
I totally agree. If the AI doesn't get better, then maybe every encounter should be a mob having diffferent skills all the time.
What I mean by this is you encounter said creature, next time you encounter this it has totally different skills or is of a different class. I personally think that AOE should affect everyone, including teammates.....your ass better maneuver correctly or it's toast. Or just have it must be on target and not be automatic. Ie: throw a fire ball and it automatically hits.
Grinding mobs is way too repetitive for my taste, so I can't actually see why anyone including Korean gamers would want to do it. Mindless fun I guess. It's the basic component to lvling.
IMO should be done in other ways. Story line and pacing. Quest, missions, dungeons and not grinding kills. Killing 2-300 hundred beast to gain 1 lvl is just mind boggling and money making.
I've played lots of asian MMO's, currently Rappelz, and I can tell you why people like me play it:
- Funny zombie Grind without stoopid quests; once you have made a quest in wow or lotro you have seen all the game progression that is pretty boring for the koregrinders like us. It's just a question of taste.
- Usually f2p, no monthly fee for a game that is still in developement, as many western MMO's are, unfinished games or low specs disney channel fantasy a la wow.
- And above all: pvp that has an impact on the world; you can be grinding and a rival guild gang find you there, or maybe you have a guild war declared and start a siege, with a complex preparation and a lot of strategy involving it.
I would play Vanguard if the Smed Boys were able to put it up and offer the great game it promises to be. It'd show superior to any Asian MMO as an evidence. It has the requirements to attract people like me. But i'm afraid on what they are doing - or not doing - to such an outstanding game.
I dont think AoC or WAR are going to become THAT NEW BIG THING, but two choices more in the MMO world. I'm not waiting for them. I have what i want in the korean MMO's and they are for free.
Seriously, i have played probably 20-30 different asian mmorpgs in my days, both Free to play and monthly fee ones. But now i just gotten enought, i cant really belive that some people actually enjoy playing them? what is fun in klicking around and literary sit and watch your character kill mobs, while you press a self buff once each 30 minute and press a potion each 4 second?
Kill 10 mobs to gain level 2 kill 15 mobs to gain level 3 kill 20 mobs to gain level 4 kill 25 mobs to gain level 5, and get a lame self-buff skille that actually have no use (but with a pretty animation)
repeat. Not to mention that PvP is a total JOKE in these types of games. Whoever that runs out of potions first die. There is absolutley NO moment of skill or challange involved, just mind numbling, slow grinding. each class has about 3-4 skills total, and there is absolutley no depth, no class roles or anything. and all asian grinders are literary the same game with just different textures. Same screwed up echonomic, same dull skill system, same controllers and crappy menu system, same boring itemization, with just a new set each 3 or 4 level.
The only one that is semi ok so far was GE,,, RFo not too awful .. but GE is fun just to switch out characters and play around. Still pay for it ... maybe once i know after that ill be like ehh it suxs.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by RespyShunt so you play Lin 2? I would get into it but i hear botting and im afraid the community hasnt kept itself and it will be desserted. You have probably been playing early on and are in the lvl bracket with a good sized ammount of players.
There are plenty of people who bot in WoW. In fact there is a famous 2 part video on youtube about a well known bot program. The video was made by it's creators to advertise the program. Do a search for WoW bots and you'll find it easy.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Originally posted by turnipz None of these games take skill to play, your giving yourself to much credit if you think WoW takes skill just because you have to run around as you do your auto attack sequence. Theres no actual dodging in the game since the netcode is horrible, except for maybe a few aoe which are few and far between. Maybe your all confusing the games with something like diablo 2 where ACTUAL skill takes place and where dodging isnt calculated using math.
Not to say its not fun but if you actually think your accomplishing something you need to rethink what genre of game your playing.
Yeah. Applying the word skill to the MMO world is kinda misleading. Most MMO's require these skills: Knowing the text, and when to use the text. Everything else is on auto pilot.
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You forgot to add IMHO to everything you said.
Yep thats exactly how you play Western MMO's the OP is just in denial.
No it isnt. Show me a asian MMO except FFXI with instances, PvP ranking/honor system and a complex class and crafting system.
With instances? Why the heck would you want to be taken OUT of the gameworld in a seperate gameworld?A pvp ranking honor system? No, most asian MMO's involve around clan politics and outside world pvp. Most of them don't rely on a honor ranking system, they have a little more depth to that.
Complex class system?
iro.ragnarokonline.com/game/jobintro.asp
In Ro, the classes are just the basics. Its the only game I know where a priest can become a damage dealer if you wish to do so, a Paladin can become the main healer, or the damage dealer. This is all possible because of RO's stats, skill and equipment card customization. Its probably more deep then any other western MMO class system.
Crafting, you're not going to find much of it in asian MMO's. I can point you to some, but you probably never have heard of them and you're unable to play in english.
this is a strong counter to the argument the OP had presented that Asian MMOs lack depth I must admit. I have no other comments besides that. interesting topic
noone loves to grind in wow. grinding is just something you have to do, to be able to enjoy the fun parts of the game. Asian grind mmos are 100% grind. The game is about grinding, grinding IS the game, there are no other aspects. you grind to gain a high level to be able to grind harder mobs. ive been trying to say this for two pages now, and so far noone have replied to it. for the love of god, please stop making comments like "WoW is also about grinding", and try to read my posts.
Asian Grind MMO's are 100% Grind? I only know 1 or 2 Asian MMO's that are all about grind.
Ok sure... i might be overreacting a bit, but please, you should agree when i say that generaly, asian mmos contain more "grind" than western ones.
No, I don't agree with you. Sure, it takes longer to reach a cap level in the average asian MMO, but take a game like WoW. you reached the cap, now what? Do repetive dungeons to collect gear, or start a new char. thats just as much of a grind imo.
Or you can form a arena team and compete in ladders in tournament. And who said my MMO of choice was WoW? my MMO of choice is either EvE or Vanguard, or join a PvE raiding guild and compete in the PvE progress race. If you play the game to get loot then sure it might seem as a grind for epics, but most of the wow players play it for the challanges and progress, boss encounters that actually require CORDINATION and initiatives, rather than just mindless attackspam where you dont even have to move around during the encounters.
As i said, WoW is not my favourite MMO of all time, im not even sure if its on my top 5. i am just using it as an example since most people have played it and know what i am talking about. Now, Gameloading, i have no idea about how much you have played in endgame pve in wow, but even the first bosses in kharazan in wow are far more complex and require far more cordination and moving than any boss in any asian MMO.
If you're just going to fight in an area...why not just play any FPS? Its the same thing. Raiding is avaible in asian MMO's as well.Far more coordination then any boss in any Asian MMO. To start with,there are over 200 asian MMO's. Unless you played all of them and raided in all of them, that statement is just one big assumption. Second, I have to disagree with that as well. Lineage 2 features Raid bosses that require 200 people that really require a lot of thought to be taken down.
That's why games should be about content, not grinding kills to gain some imaginary experience killing a particular lvl mob. Granted it's all imaginary...but how can anyone truly have fun grinding. For the first few lvls sure. It teaches you how to handle mobs and gets you used to the way you interact in the world.
To grind for majority of the lvls is nuts these days. All it does is keep someone glued to their chair trying to cap out(which is what the creators want I guess, and why people trash them for it). Better xp should be given for questing or completing instances. That way those who hate grinding don't have to do it. Problem with doing that tho----> Take WoW, you have to train you sword skills up....only way is to grind kills.
NEED MORE SKILL BASED GAMES THAT ARE FOCUSED ON STORY and END GAME.
...or, maybe....it could be, most asians are not playing in their homes, most are collectively playing in iCafe's. This is just like the late 70's-late80's arcades heyday. same thing.
what did you do in an arcade( for those old enough to remember)...very very few people stood at one game endlessly. most, meandered around, socializing, beating up others, smoking(and whatnot), flirting, running back and forth, goofing off, buying soda's, talking.....you get the idea. a cacaphony of chaos.
The cafes look exactly like this, short shallow gameplay with longevity'(grinding") seems to be the norm for the cafe'crowd(s). They simply dont care. The shallow gameplay allows for one to get up from his comp and chase after some girl that just put ice down his back as she runs off giggling into the girls bathroom. people switching back and forth playin accounts, filling in..etc....
The Cafes, for the most part(i know populace in Lineage, but look at the asian population as a whole!..yeesh!), are NOT filled with a bunch of "Cartmans' playing wow , self-installed on a seat, for days on end - screaming ...'maa-a-a-a-a-h-h-hmmmm", <--waiting for the bedpan scene to commence.
Although..yes their are some... a few.
very few.
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Raid bosses in Lineage 2:
See my point now? Raid bosses in Lineage 2 are just ordinary mobs that have a little more hit points and hit a bit harder, that require a lot of people to be taken down. Some of the bosses in that vid where even kited! yeah you heard right, they KITED a RAID BOSS to death
The Raid bosses in WoW have unique encounters, the bosses have special abilities that actually require the players to do other things than just using their class skills, like moving around to avoid certain aoes, clicking certain terrain objects in the area at a certain time to prevent bosses from gaining certain benefits etc. that is what i call dynamic and interactive boss fights.
Now for example, take an encounter like maghteridon, where 5 players in the raid have to run out each 1 minute and activate 5 cubes at the same time, to interrupt him from casting his fire nova that instantly wipes the raid. that is a simple example, but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around. in the wow encounters, people need to think. i really wish you good luck in trying to kill any wow raid boss by kiting it without a single tank or healer, like the dudes did in that L2 video.
Sure, you can keep on disagreeing with what i say just cause you feel an urge to, or you can actually admit that i have a point, at least when it comes to western VS asian games in terms of raid boss complexity.
vox and naggy!
now that was a pain!
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Olie, just do yourself a favor and don't post about things you don't know anymore. You obviously never particupated in the Lineage 2 raids. There are different forms of raids in Lineage 2's, some of them are only a small group but as I pointed out in a different post, the big raids in Lineage 2 require 200 people. The biggest in WoW is 40 people, and the new raids have been dumbed down to 25 people. Its pointless to only point towards one boss and say the entire game is like that. As I'm sure you know, there are raids in WoW as well that are little else then "Tank & Spank".
Untill you actually played the raid boss encounters in Lineage 2, you're just posting a lot of assumptions. I mean,
"but still way more advanced than just having 200 players spamming their class abilites in the back of a big mob, not even having to think about moving around"
look at that. its just downright wrong. Play the game first, untill you do, you're just talking out of your ass.
Untill you actually played the raid boss encounters in Lineage 2, you're just posting a lot of assumptions.
Amount of players needed to take down the encounter doesnt have any connection with difficulity level. And please, give me an example of a L2 boss that is not a tank and spank, and tell me what else there is in the encounter, what players need to do etc.
and please, are you seriously trying to say that the endgame raid bosses in Lineage are more complex and require more cordination than the ones in wow...?
and give me one, just one example of a 25 man boss in wow that is a tank and spank fight
You're comparing apples with oranges when it comes to end game of both games. The main end game for Lineage 2 is and has always been PvP battles where as the big end game for WoW are PvE raids. The amount of diversity and shifting tactics in L2 PvP along with the politics is 100x more complex then any WoW raid.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
I like it because its free and it gives me a taste of asian culture. Gives me what the asian market is playing now and i want to go to korea/japan and it makes me feel closer to my destination! weird as it may seem. Ive yet to find a good one though. i usually un install within a day or 2. o well.
I like it because its free and it gives me a taste of asian culture. Gives me what the asian market is playing now and i want to go to korea/japan and it makes me feel closer to my destination! weird as it may seem. Ive yet to find a good one though. i usually un install within a day or 2. o well.
if you really wanna taste some japanese culture you should buy a nintendo DS
its like the biggest thing in the world there atm
I like it because its free and it gives me a taste of asian culture. Gives me what the asian market is playing now and i want to go to korea/japan and it makes me feel closer to my destination! weird as it may seem. Ive yet to find a good one though. i usually un install within a day or 2. o well.
if you really wanna taste some japanese culture you should buy a nintendo DS
its like the biggest thing in the world there atm
You got that right, nintendo rules in Japan. My sister has one and i bought some games to play on it like Castlevania PoR, Jump Superstars import, and Animal Crossing. I wanna get some more games though, havent played it in a while. Maybe that cooking game, or phoenix right
It's pretty obvious to me and anyone else that has played Lineage II for any length of time that you never played it for more than a week tops. In Lineage II the combat is all about knowing not only your characters abilities but those of your opponent(s) as well. What works well on one class will get you totally owned by another. In lineage if you just stand and spam skills like your saying you'll last about 5 1/2 seconds in any fight if that. Also in Lineage PvP effects every aspect of the gaming world right down to how much something will cost you from a vender. Through PvP some players become heroes and others become villians that are known server wide by most everyone without a PvP ranking system. Crafting in games? Please, I'd rather not have a game were I have to put 3 items in a box and press combine for hours (and in some games days) on end just so I can finally make something some noob might buy if I'm lucky. Crafting in most games is a worst grind than anything that has come out of Korea. So you like WoW.....Fine we get it but before you start slamming a whole country for their games maybe you should play a few of them first because it's obvious you didn't play Lineage II.
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Kirithia - 7X Phantom Ranger on the Bartz server
so you play Lin 2? I would get into it but i hear botting and im afraid the community hasnt kept itself and it will be desserted. You have probably been playing early on and are in the lvl bracket with a good sized ammount of players.
Olie, just do yourself a favor and don't post about things you don't know anymore. You obviously never particupated in the Lineage 2 raids. There are different forms of raids in Lineage 2's, some of them are only a small group but as I pointed out in a different post, the big raids in Lineage 2 require 200 people. The biggest in WoW is 40 people, and the new raids have been dumbed down to 25 people. Its pointless to only point towards one boss and say the entire game is like that. As I'm sure you know, there are raids in WoW as well that are little else then "Tank & Spank".Untill you actually played the raid boss encounters in Lineage 2, you're just posting a lot of assumptions.
Amount of players needed to take down the encounter doesnt have any connection with difficulity level. And please, give me an example of a L2 boss that is not a tank and spank, and tell me what else there is in the encounter, what players need to do etc.
and please, are you seriously trying to say that the endgame raid bosses in Lineage are more complex and require more cordination than the ones in wow...?
and give me one, just one example of a 25 man boss in wow that is a tank and spank fight
First of all, players need to set their groups right, this is very, very important, and it requires more then just putting the priest with the tank. Second of all, it requires you to put everyone in the right position. If you get hit in an AoE, you're dead, and you're being hit by AoE's constantly. Next you have to chose which characters will ressurect other players through ressurection scrolls. If you think healers should do this, then you are dead wrong.
Heck, even before the raid begins it requires a lot of dedication from multiple alliances, to collect the items required.
Trying to say that the endgame raid bosses in Lineage 2 are more complext then WoW? sorry, but what do you know? You're just guessing, you never played fought any of the high end raid bosses in L2.
Its obvious you're just not willing to step away from your statement in the OP, no matter how much people explain how wrong it is. You're unable to look at this from a subjective point of view.
edit: About WoW's tank & spank, many of the old 40 man bosses were little else then tank & spank.
No, i bring examples and evidence, all you do is to say "i disagree, (but i am not going to give you any examples or put up any evidence to prove my point)"
blah..its all the same.
maybe on the first time you kill a Mob/Named/Mini-boss/Boss/etc..whether it be a creature that has several attacks or just a bunch of hp'sd or both...its all the same. even back in eq1, when you, had to go thru a-l-l these motions of 'fake'buffing to 'counter' some of the dragon's attacks and debuffing...was just - funnay, to say the least...
Do we have any AI in Mmorpgs?
its all just , 'follow-the-norm', 'do-the-same', over and over.....may be fun the first time...but thats it..
once you fight something once..(usually in beta or test server) everyone is 'TOLD" how to fight it and what to expect anyway...if you DONT do what your told....your chastised,ridiculed and cast aside...lol...some mmorpg huh....that goes for almost ALL of them.
Would be nice if mobs...no wait..strike that..if simply bosses had some "ReaL' AI in mmorpgs.
but we wont be seeing that anytime soon?.....no?
until then..its all the same.... the skill needed, or anything remotely there-of resembling the skill needed, to take down a boss...is nary a whisper of a fleeting thought.
( edit- i think the Crappy AI that Online play has NOT offered for eons, is the main reason why people are becoming more and more addicted and luving the idea(s) of playing PvP and RvR .)
it is becoming more popular lately.
woot
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No, i bring examples and evidence, all you do is to say "i disagree, (but i am not going to give you any examples or put up any evidence to prove my point)"
I'm sorry, what evidence? You mean your incorrect claims about Lineage 2 you just made up?or the incorrect claims about asian MMO's that you made up? or the "Its better because think it is?" You didn't bring any evidence whatsoever.
None of these games take skill to play, your giving yourself to much credit if you think WoW takes skill just because you have to run around as you do your auto attack sequence. Theres no actual dodging in the game since the netcode is horrible, except for maybe a few aoe which are few and far between. Maybe your all confusing the games with something like diablo 2 where ACTUAL skill takes place and where dodging isnt calculated using math.
Not to say its not fun but if you actually think your accomplishing something you need to rethink what genre of game your playing.
/here here
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I totally agree. If the AI doesn't get better, then maybe every encounter should be a mob having diffferent skills all the time.
What I mean by this is you encounter said creature, next time you encounter this it has totally different skills or is of a different class. I personally think that AOE should affect everyone, including teammates.....your ass better maneuver correctly or it's toast.
Or just have it must be on target and not be automatic. Ie: throw a fire ball and it automatically hits.
Grinding mobs is way too repetitive for my taste, so I can't actually see why anyone including Korean gamers would want to do it. Mindless fun I guess. It's the basic component to lvling.
IMO should be done in other ways. Story line and pacing. Quest, missions, dungeons and not grinding kills. Killing 2-300 hundred beast to gain 1 lvl is just mind boggling and money making.
I've played lots of asian MMO's, currently Rappelz, and I can tell you why people like me play it:
- Funny zombie Grind without stoopid quests; once you have made a quest in wow or lotro you have seen all the game progression that is pretty boring for the koregrinders like us. It's just a question of taste.
- Usually f2p, no monthly fee for a game that is still in developement, as many western MMO's are, unfinished games or low specs disney channel fantasy a la wow.
- And above all: pvp that has an impact on the world; you can be grinding and a rival guild gang find you there, or maybe you have a guild war declared and start a siege, with a complex preparation and a lot of strategy involving it.
I would play Vanguard if the Smed Boys were able to put it up and offer the great game it promises to be. It'd show superior to any Asian MMO as an evidence. It has the requirements to attract people like me. But i'm afraid on what they are doing - or not doing - to such an outstanding game.
I dont think AoC or WAR are going to become THAT NEW BIG THING, but two choices more in the MMO world. I'm not waiting for them. I have what i want in the korean MMO's and they are for free.
It is a question of fangs.
The only one that is semi ok so far was GE,,, RFo not too awful .. but GE is fun just to switch out characters and play around. Still pay for it ... maybe once i know after that ill be like ehh it suxs.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
There are plenty of people who bot in WoW. In fact there is a famous 2 part video on youtube about a well known bot program. The video was made by it's creators to advertise the program. Do a search for WoW bots and you'll find it easy.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Yeah. Applying the word skill to the MMO world is kinda misleading. Most MMO's require these skills: Knowing the text, and when to use the text. Everything else is on auto pilot.