played Vanguard for a while and didn't notice any bugs or lag that were to the extent that it would stop me from playing the game. I'm certain that the game was just to hard for most people to bother with or people just didn't have the time to spend playing that style of game.
Again, I haven't played this game. But the topics I read about it and there being a sticky topic in the Vanguard section "how to improve video and performance issues" may suggest "other problems" as being more of stronger deterrant. But what you said certainly could be a factor though admittedly.
It's hard to develope enough story for people to care about with that scheme. Even with chains of quests, each link in the chain is simply another XYZ scenario.
These work fine as "side quests" or as repeatable missions for extra cash/reputation/etc
But for "main" storyline quests, they need to take a better look at single player RPG's and even adventure games.
Give us an overall arc, a general idea, but let us determine how we go about completing it. Tell us that we need to find a way to stop this evil Dark Lord from getting more power and destroying this city, but don't tell us where he is and exactly how to stop him. Let us walk around and talk to citizens, travel to different locations and have them give us rumor, speculation.... let us figure it out, let us do battle with the Dark Lord and lose, but let us learn something. We can then travel and talk more , figure out his weakness and how to exploit it.... then do battle again and defeat him!
It's all about the story, it's all about how it's presented...
Having this "epic" quest where you are tasked with go to x, find y, kill z, go back to a, kill b, gather c, then go back to a and form g in order to use to kill H.
It's just crap. If you point us every step of the way, yeah, it's easier... but you really lose that sense of accomplishment you get when you figure something out for yourself. Sure you have to give some direction and hints..
I think they take this vantage point out because (A) they are tired of hearing how great a game was that they never got to play -- or don't recall with such fondness. (B) because it is easier to think these are simply musings of old fuddy-duddies (does using that description make me one?) rather then failures that they are responsible for perpetuating.
Agreed there especially revealing on the first page with someone having a poll with smething along the lines of 'are you fed up of this debate?' despite this not really ever being a topic.
I don't particulaly like questing ala WoW style, I much prefer the style of quests that were part of Asheron's Call in the begining (after ToD they became very WoW-like). I don't like sysmbols over the NPC's heads, if you want a quest you go look for one. I don't like quest logs, I prefer to keep my own notes. I hate kill x mobs or collect x monkey livers. But I prefer quests over repetitve mob slaughter.
Now heres the main point...if quests are available, theres nothing saying a player has to do them. If quests are not available then theres nothing in the game for a player like myself. I don't see quests being removed anytime soon for that very reason, the dev's aren't going to want to alienate a portion of their potential customer base.
If a game was to be designed intelligently, it would be able to implement both play styles in the same game. I think to do that it would have to make sure that quest items are not the most sought after items in the game, or the non questers will feel slighted. If I may point out Asheron's Call again, most quest items were easily replaced in function by random world drops, making quest items really nothing more than badges of honor. But those items were well sought out, but not neccesary to make a "leet" character. Both sides are content.
One of the reasons LotRO is so good, is because of the story-based quest system which really immerses you in the world and gives you a sense of purpose, beyond the normal 'get xp, get loot, get stronger' of mmorpgs. LotRO took wow's quest system (which helped take away the monotony of the grind) and added to it an immersive storyline which really pulls you into the world. Its cool go by an NPC you helped, and see them thank you or sometimes even hail you as 'drake-slayer' or whatever.
Frankly I think the days of camping and xp-grinding are over forever thanks to WoW. Its pretty obvious which approach - quest or grind - has wider appeal to the marketplace. And i would add that IMO people look back and fondly reminisce about the good ole days of grinding, whereas the reality was never as good as memory and hindisght make it out to be. If people loved it that much they would never have switched to wow.
Leveling is evil. Period. Because it stratifies and divides players, it does not bring them together. The original SWG did not do this...there were no penalties on players for daring to mix newbies with veterans. But, overt level systems are much easier to "balance" and maintain for the developers, so that's the way they go. Skill systems are much more complicated beasts, have more "moving" parts, and therefore are shunned, particularly by large beancounter mentality corporations, because more developers to keep a property going means lower profits. And we can't have that.
I find that games that have lots of imbalances tend to draw more people. That way people can min max for the most powerful character at the time. I think that skill system is just not as popular overall so far. Perhaps is someone comes out with a good one then a lot of people will play the game and more companies will use said system.
I see your point; the thing is, if you've got clever enough developers operating, and they playtest their system with a bunch of serious min/max beta testers, and they take enough time to do it throughly, they can come up with a skill based system that allows a wide variety of skillsets for players and still has a semblance of balance. One thing they must do though is have a central vision and stick to it no matter how much whining they get from your typical power player. I think the WoW devs have done a decent job of telling people "sorry, but someone WILL own you in a duel situation, it's inevitable" and not letting the duel dynamic water down their system to banality.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Frankly I think the days of camping and xp-grinding are over forever thanks to WoW
Er grinding is still a central part of WoW... All it has done, is made it more quest-based.
He was talking about the EQ days, where you would literally sit in one camp, not move, and have one person bring mobs to you, for hours and hours on end. People actually like this stuff. I actually liked this stuff. Not anymore though.
You can lament that all WoW has done is make it more quest based, but this is still a massive improvement of what used to be.
Quests in EQ used to get you almost nil experience.
You can still call it a grind if you want, but WoW is less grindier.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
He was talking about the EQ days, where you would literally sit in one camp, not move, and have one person bring mobs to you, for hours and hours on end. People actually like this stuff. I actually liked this stuff. Not anymore though.
You can lament that all WoW has done is make it more quest based, but this is still a massive improvement of what used to be.
Quests in EQ used to get you almost nil experience.
You can still call it a grind if you want, but WoW is less grindier.
I'm just curious the assumption that non-questing== grinding. If that is the philosphy then are WoW instances grinding or not? I really think going so quest-central has lost some of the appeal of mmorpgs, but is the opposite really grinding? Well okay yes Everquest was, but I'm sure there are other ways.
He was talking about the EQ days, where you would literally sit in one camp, not move, and have one person bring mobs to you, for hours and hours on end. People actually like this stuff. I actually liked this stuff. Not anymore though.
You can lament that all WoW has done is make it more quest based, but this is still a massive improvement of what used to be. Quests in EQ used to get you almost nil experience. You can still call it a grind if you want, but WoW is less grindier.
I'm just curious the assumption that non-questing== grinding. If that is the philosphy then are WoW instances grinding or not? I really think going so quest-central has lost some of the appeal of mmorpgs, but is the opposite really grinding? Well okay yes Everquest was, but I'm sure there are other ways.
Unless there are no levels in the game I would have to say, yes. What other way is there besides questing or grinding mobs? FFXI was my first MMO and the quests didnt give you any EXP. I didnt do any quests unless they gave me a nice reward. I prefer grinding quests + grinding mobs instead of strictly grinding mobs.
edit: and yes... doing wow instances over and over is grinding. I also agree that it's less grindier (lol).
Guess it all depends on how "grind" is defined in the first place. I mean Gunz Online and fps' you do the same actions over and over but that isn't seen as grind because people want to do it- the gameplay satisfies enough without gimmicky levels needing to take the place of that as the enjoyment. Moving onto mmorpgs, while I don't think quests are bad there does need to be something OTHER than that. I'm sure in rpgs I've never had such a quest-obsessed manner in leading my way through the game. Maybe I'm mistaken though.
Quests should be so involving that you forget what level you are and just want to quest for the fun of questing...
For me... There has never been an MMO like that... There have been offline RPGs though, such as Elder Scolls series and Final Fantasy Series.... You totally forget about level on all of those. Never once do you think, oh crap, I've gotta do 4 more quests before I hit level 21
MMOs quests should be designed the same way... Less time should be spent by the devs deciding the pace of leveling up... and more time spent on writing good quests.
MMOs played (In order of how much I've liked them): Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Vanguard, City of Villains / Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, Anarchy Online, Ryzom, Final Fantasy XI, Matrix Online, RF Online, Rappelz, Hero Online, Roma Victor
Missions grinds are like single-player gameplay, without the quality of an evolving single-player game story environment. They kill the one thing that makes MMOs better than SP games, and that's socializing. In every other aspet, MMOs are universally inferior to most half-decent SP games.
Having just been bored to tears by yet another mission grind game currently in beta, I've decided to make that my number one criteria for whether or not I even try an MMO. Is the gameplay predominantly about doing chores for NPCs with thier endless dialogue boxes of unengaging storylines that have no bearing on the shared gameworld? Then screw it, won't even waste my time on a free download, nevermind paying for it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Kind of as an add on to what was said on the first page, the next game is gonna be a mixture. Personally though I think the games are gonna be in a wave of up and downs between grinding and quests. Top dominant game right now is wow, which mostly consists of quests that are quite similar in nature. People are getting bored of that and are going to want a game with more grinding and less solo play.
Thing is people will eventually get tired of that and you will see people on these boards saying, "Remember the good ole' days of wow when we could quest to level. I'm guessing this cycle will just continue.
p.s o hai first post here
Currently trying to get less involved in WoW. (Not gonna happen >.> ) Nylon - 70 Rogue - Dethecus US
Quests should be so involving that you forget what level you are and just want to quest for the fun of questing...
For me... There has never been an MMO like that... There have been offline RPGs though, such as Elder Scolls series and Final Fantasy Series.... You totally forget about level on all of those. Never once do you think, oh crap, I've gotta do 4 more quests before I hit level 21
MMOs quests should be designed the same way... Less time should be spent by the devs deciding the pace of leveling up... and more time spent on writing good quests.
I agree, the thing is that questing is more often than not an obvious substitute for naked grinding. If the quests are put together the right way, they don't come across as grinding. Some of WoW's quests are just so obviously grindy with low drop rates (there's one where you kill swamp-things in the Swamp of Sorrows that has a hideous drop rate to get one item) that you're bored to tears. Others are much less like that.
One of the things about SWG, for me at least, was that going out and hunting critters or running missions was never just about the grind, I enjoyed doing it, especially with others. Jedi grinding was really enjoyable if you did it with the right people. The social aspect of the game is always the most appealing to me. Right now I'm doing a vet trial with SWG and it's not as much fun because all the people I used to play with aren't there to play it with me. Which really sucks.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
So the next MMO comes out of the beta shoot and into game store shelves. World of Rings Hammer. It's built for the masses and claims to have new and innovative features. But really here is the basic formula...newbie starter area, quests, quests, raid. Where did they get the idea from? Well from SOE of course. Originally back in '99 an MMORPG game out that defined MMO's. It was an open persistent world where you could finally game with thousands of online players and you couldn't "finish" the game in X amount of hours. The game was very successful for it's time. When EQ2 came out they tried and address the concerns of the vocal minority on the forums. And I think try and build in features to eliminate allot of their top customer service issues. Hence the instancing, lack of trains, etc. WoW released and took EQ's post-planes of power formula and mass marketed in their already huge IP. It of course was a success. But why is it gamers are burning out and complaining about being bored? Because they have forgot why we play these games to begin with. Without going into the casual vs. hardcore debate, Everquest originally was a sandbox. Very few limitations on what you could do, and only the rules of the world to keep players in check. Want to attack that banker? Sure, but you will likely die! In fact it was through this sandbox much of what we take for granted was developed. Raids were not planned originally, they simply came about when players decided to attack something to big for any one group and won. Devs stood stunned. But the concept was very cool. Let groups chain together in a raid and attack larger then life monsters like dragons. However this wasn't the main thing that made the game cool. The thing is EQ was very short on quests. The quests were mostly hard, for items not really worth it. And the [text] system was dated for getting quests. Players did want more options for quests that were relevant and accessible. EQ2 had that in spades. Trouble is, it made it the central core of the game, not for flavor. Soon the concept of getting a quest, kill X of Y and get Z reward became the norm. But this too is basically a grind with a story. You still have to do repeat kills of the same thing over and over. That really isn't what made the original EQ fun. What made EQ so much fun has been debated since it's first expansion. But I would say it was the sandbox experience. No rules, no one holding your hand. You made your own adventures, decided which path to take given the boundary's of the world. There was a loose path of progression to follow, but it didn't come slap you in the face, nor FORCE you to take it. It was simply there. Players are generally going to take the path of least resistance. And so when devs set up these quest based games, it simply means to keep up you need to follow the lemmings through the quest path to the end raid game. Honestly no one really likes that. What MMO's are missing is not only a true sense of community, but the ability to give players control over the game itself. let them decide what town they will visit, what shops to frequent. The only thing devs should do is make it a level playing field. But they FORCE quests or obvious progressions, and they make it a penalty for not taking the well traveled road. The reward and purpose for playing a fantasy MMORPG used to be to simply be in a world, explore, advance a character and do so with other people. It was something to do with friends. Take on an alternate personae, one with magically powers or mighty skill with a blade. This was somehow considered to be grinding. Everyone likes a good story, but people simply are grinding quest to get the best rewards. They often skip the dialog and lore. I fall of the MMORPG is in going the route of quest based progression, and removing all need for players to create their own adventure. Bring back the sandbox! SWG had it, EQ1 had it. Sadly development changes keep moving them towards obviously quest based progression paths. The games are turning into console games.
Seeing you have an EQ2 sig makes me wonder. You say you dislike quests and still play EverQUEST 2? I kinda understand why you say this, really. Quests especially as they are in EQ/EQ2 are extremely boring. But quests can be made better. I personally found the LOTRO quests good. They were the first I really was reading the story about, not like all these generic EQ2-quests I always skip, and never read. I think quests can be made much better, with a story-climax, as many LOTRO quests have with some tiny, scripted event at the end. I found that really cool.
Sandbox... I played SWG in the old sandbox days, it was good, but I think it would not work anymore. Those days wont come back, and while I was happy with sandbox back then even I would not want to go into it again. Its just a guess, but I feel like my chance of taste reflects the change of taste in many players, now.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
copletely agree with the OP. MMO's used to feel like you were living and adventuring in a fantasy world. Current style MMO quests play more like a simple video game... its a more or less linear progression like older style video games. I miss the old days, and doubt they will ever come back =(
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
So the next MMO comes out of the beta shoot and into game store shelves. World of Rings Hammer. It's built for the masses and claims to have new and innovative features. But really here is the basic formula...newbie starter area, quests, quests, raid. Where did they get the idea from? Well from UO of course. Originally back in '97 an MMORPG game out that defined MMO's. It was an open persistent world where you could finally game with thousands of online players and you couldn't "finish" the game in X amount of hours. The game was very successful for it's time.
Corrected it for you.
Actually, he had it right the first time..
UO didn't define MMO's, EQ did. That's why all these current MMO's are Eq Clones.
On that note, I think it's high time an MMO came out in the style of old UO... Please nobody suggest Darkfall.
Comments
I agree that quests are too simple.
Go to X, kill Y, bring Z back to A.
Go to X, talk to A.
Find and collect Z.
It's hard to develope enough story for people to care about with that scheme. Even with chains of quests, each link in the chain is simply another XYZ scenario.
These work fine as "side quests" or as repeatable missions for extra cash/reputation/etc
But for "main" storyline quests, they need to take a better look at single player RPG's and even adventure games.
Give us an overall arc, a general idea, but let us determine how we go about completing it. Tell us that we need to find a way to stop this evil Dark Lord from getting more power and destroying this city, but don't tell us where he is and exactly how to stop him. Let us walk around and talk to citizens, travel to different locations and have them give us rumor, speculation.... let us figure it out, let us do battle with the Dark Lord and lose, but let us learn something. We can then travel and talk more , figure out his weakness and how to exploit it.... then do battle again and defeat him!
It's all about the story, it's all about how it's presented...
Having this "epic" quest where you are tasked with go to x, find y, kill z, go back to a, kill b, gather c, then go back to a and form g in order to use to kill H.
It's just crap. If you point us every step of the way, yeah, it's easier... but you really lose that sense of accomplishment you get when you figure something out for yourself. Sure you have to give some direction and hints..
Personally I prefer questing over grinding.
I don't particulaly like questing ala WoW style, I much prefer the style of quests that were part of Asheron's Call in the begining (after ToD they became very WoW-like). I don't like sysmbols over the NPC's heads, if you want a quest you go look for one. I don't like quest logs, I prefer to keep my own notes. I hate kill x mobs or collect x monkey livers. But I prefer quests over repetitve mob slaughter.
Now heres the main point...if quests are available, theres nothing saying a player has to do them. If quests are not available then theres nothing in the game for a player like myself. I don't see quests being removed anytime soon for that very reason, the dev's aren't going to want to alienate a portion of their potential customer base.
If a game was to be designed intelligently, it would be able to implement both play styles in the same game. I think to do that it would have to make sure that quest items are not the most sought after items in the game, or the non questers will feel slighted. If I may point out Asheron's Call again, most quest items were easily replaced in function by random world drops, making quest items really nothing more than badges of honor. But those items were well sought out, but not neccesary to make a "leet" character. Both sides are content.
One of the reasons LotRO is so good, is because of the story-based quest system which really immerses you in the world and gives you a sense of purpose, beyond the normal 'get xp, get loot, get stronger' of mmorpgs. LotRO took wow's quest system (which helped take away the monotony of the grind) and added to it an immersive storyline which really pulls you into the world. Its cool go by an NPC you helped, and see them thank you or sometimes even hail you as 'drake-slayer' or whatever.
Frankly I think the days of camping and xp-grinding are over forever thanks to WoW. Its pretty obvious which approach - quest or grind - has wider appeal to the marketplace. And i would add that IMO people look back and fondly reminisce about the good ole days of grinding, whereas the reality was never as good as memory and hindisght make it out to be. If people loved it that much they would never have switched to wow.
Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC
I find that games that have lots of imbalances tend to draw more people. That way people can min max for the most powerful character at the time. I think that skill system is just not as popular overall so far. Perhaps is someone comes out with a good one then a lot of people will play the game and more companies will use said system.
I see your point; the thing is, if you've got clever enough developers operating, and they playtest their system with a bunch of serious min/max beta testers, and they take enough time to do it throughly, they can come up with a skill based system that allows a wide variety of skillsets for players and still has a semblance of balance. One thing they must do though is have a central vision and stick to it no matter how much whining they get from your typical power player. I think the WoW devs have done a decent job of telling people "sorry, but someone WILL own you in a duel situation, it's inevitable" and not letting the duel dynamic water down their system to banality.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
He was talking about the EQ days, where you would literally sit in one camp, not move, and have one person bring mobs to you, for hours and hours on end. People actually like this stuff. I actually liked this stuff. Not anymore though.
You can lament that all WoW has done is make it more quest based, but this is still a massive improvement of what used to be.
Quests in EQ used to get you almost nil experience.
You can still call it a grind if you want, but WoW is less grindier.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I'm just curious the assumption that non-questing== grinding. If that is the philosphy then are WoW instances grinding or not? I really think going so quest-central has lost some of the appeal of mmorpgs, but is the opposite really grinding? Well okay yes Everquest was, but I'm sure there are other ways.
I'm just curious the assumption that non-questing== grinding. If that is the philosphy then are WoW instances grinding or not? I really think going so quest-central has lost some of the appeal of mmorpgs, but is the opposite really grinding? Well okay yes Everquest was, but I'm sure there are other ways.
Unless there are no levels in the game I would have to say, yes. What other way is there besides questing or grinding mobs? FFXI was my first MMO and the quests didnt give you any EXP. I didnt do any quests unless they gave me a nice reward. I prefer grinding quests + grinding mobs instead of strictly grinding mobs.
edit: and yes... doing wow instances over and over is grinding. I also agree that it's less grindier (lol).
Guess it all depends on how "grind" is defined in the first place. I mean Gunz Online and fps' you do the same actions over and over but that isn't seen as grind because people want to do it- the gameplay satisfies enough without gimmicky levels needing to take the place of that as the enjoyment. Moving onto mmorpgs, while I don't think quests are bad there does need to be something OTHER than that. I'm sure in rpgs I've never had such a quest-obsessed manner in leading my way through the game. Maybe I'm mistaken though.
For me... There has never been an MMO like that... There have been offline RPGs though, such as Elder Scolls series and Final Fantasy Series.... You totally forget about level on all of those. Never once do you think, oh crap, I've gotta do 4 more quests before I hit level 21
MMOs quests should be designed the same way... Less time should be spent by the devs deciding the pace of leveling up... and more time spent on writing good quests.
MMOs played (In order of how much I've liked them): Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Vanguard, City of Villains / Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, Anarchy Online, Ryzom, Final Fantasy XI, Matrix Online, RF Online, Rappelz, Hero Online, Roma Victor
Missions grinds are like single-player gameplay, without the quality of an evolving single-player game story environment. They kill the one thing that makes MMOs better than SP games, and that's socializing. In every other aspet, MMOs are universally inferior to most half-decent SP games.
Having just been bored to tears by yet another mission grind game currently in beta, I've decided to make that my number one criteria for whether or not I even try an MMO. Is the gameplay predominantly about doing chores for NPCs with thier endless dialogue boxes of unengaging storylines that have no bearing on the shared gameworld? Then screw it, won't even waste my time on a free download, nevermind paying for it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Kind of as an add on to what was said on the first page, the next game is gonna be a mixture. Personally though I think the games are gonna be in a wave of up and downs between grinding and quests. Top dominant game right now is wow, which mostly consists of quests that are quite similar in nature. People are getting bored of that and are going to want a game with more grinding and less solo play.
Thing is people will eventually get tired of that and you will see people on these boards saying, "Remember the good ole' days of wow when we could quest to level. I'm guessing this cycle will just continue.
p.s o hai first post here
Currently trying to get less involved in WoW. (Not gonna happen >.> )
Nylon - 70 Rogue - Dethecus US
I agree, the thing is that questing is more often than not an obvious substitute for naked grinding. If the quests are put together the right way, they don't come across as grinding. Some of WoW's quests are just so obviously grindy with low drop rates (there's one where you kill swamp-things in the Swamp of Sorrows that has a hideous drop rate to get one item) that you're bored to tears. Others are much less like that.
One of the things about SWG, for me at least, was that going out and hunting critters or running missions was never just about the grind, I enjoyed doing it, especially with others. Jedi grinding was really enjoyable if you did it with the right people. The social aspect of the game is always the most appealing to me. Right now I'm doing a vet trial with SWG and it's not as much fun because all the people I used to play with aren't there to play it with me. Which really sucks.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Seeing you have an EQ2 sig makes me wonder. You say you dislike quests and still play EverQUEST 2? I kinda understand why you say this, really. Quests especially as they are in EQ/EQ2 are extremely boring. But quests can be made better. I personally found the LOTRO quests good. They were the first I really was reading the story about, not like all these generic EQ2-quests I always skip, and never read. I think quests can be made much better, with a story-climax, as many LOTRO quests have with some tiny, scripted event at the end. I found that really cool.
Sandbox... I played SWG in the old sandbox days, it was good, but I think it would not work anymore. Those days wont come back, and while I was happy with sandbox back then even I would not want to go into it again. Its just a guess, but I feel like my chance of taste reflects the change of taste in many players, now.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
copletely agree with the OP. MMO's used to feel like you were living and adventuring in a fantasy world. Current style MMO quests play more like a simple video game... its a more or less linear progression like older style video games. I miss the old days, and doubt they will ever come back =(
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Corrected it for you.
Actually, he had it right the first time..
UO didn't define MMO's, EQ did. That's why all these current MMO's are Eq Clones.
On that note, I think it's high time an MMO came out in the style of old UO... Please nobody suggest Darkfall.