The more realistic the game is, the better. I mean you have the game with 2 blobs playing voleyball, which cannot be real, but the ball physics should be realistic, got my point? Computer games are basicly for 2 reasons: 1. PvP, winning, pwning issue 2. Adventure, story, something that you cant do in reality
I guess majority of ppl, play mmo because of first reason. To get stronger and kick somebodys ass. Killing somebody permamently is definetly more pleasant. But dying after weeks or months of farming? Lol It would not hurt however to see permadeath in a game less grindy (like shadowbane). Basicly in games where you can have almost max lvl in 1-2 weeks, additional permadeath server is a good idea to me.
And definetly if there ever comes out game which is more rpg than hack&slash&grind, permadeath would be nice, because the game would be more realistic. I think there is nothing wrong to have permadeath in game like "Second Life"
Playing: Rohan Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
permadeath is defined nicely by Shawn's blog (used to post here under BalanceFX). you have to google for his blog PErmadeath has a few forms: 1) In DDO there are guil;ds that will delete their toon upon death like some have eluded to in this post. 2) sometimes in games two pvpers might duel and agree to delete or transfer upon failure. 3) limited number of lives then u get deleted 4) aging- whereas your character will surely die in a set period of time.
the biggest games I know of that have it is Diablo series, some small MMOs, and some Asian MMOs have it. so ya im lol'ing at the nuts that say no one big will ever do it. I've seen it not really worth arguing especially on a public general forum. much better topic to discuss on developer forums you'll get good feed there. this is more of a brainstorm. opf course the replies will come slow and will be long and well thought out
So tell this nut (me) what big mmorpg does this ? :P
I've heard of the guilds that delete their characters upon death and I've heard a countless time the "if you want permadeath, then just delete your char when you die and ta daaa you got permadeath" argument.
Well, the guilds are free to do as the please, but the second argument is basically flawed.
It all come down to game design. Usually permadeath advocates wants a game to be DESIGNED around permadeath.
In a normal mmorpg there are too many variables to insure a viable permadeath experience and the games are designed around the fact you can die multiple times.
Take WoW PvP for example. in the average WSG battle, everyone in both sides will die at least once, usually multiple times. That's because the game is designed that away, trying to play that game with permadeath on, so to speak, would be pointless.
Even the DDO guilds that practice permadeath, I ask you, what cookie you give your clerics for losing some of their best high level spells as raise dead and resurrection are? or those works?
So point 1, a permadeath game should be designed with permadeath in mind. Characters should suffer different fates or death should be harder to inflict. maybe at 0 hp the character is merely unconsious and if a friend can reach them in time, then they can be saved. Even then, going down does not mean dying exclusivly, it depends on what you were fighting. spiders and the like will keep you alive even for days to eat you fresh later, giving you chance to wake up naked in a cocoon and maybe having a chance at escaping (or your companions at rescuing you)
humanoids rarely kills in cold blood. some definitly would and they would be the "hard" monsters, most though will rob you and then toss you in a ditch... or take you prisoner for ransom.
point 2, no one shot one kill deaths. meaning multiple lifes. that coupled with death not being so exclusive would make it possible.
point 3, gameplay should be fun from the get go. Making a decently powerful character with free access to the whole world should take couple days at most, even less. There can be oher way to power after that, but definitly, you do not want to build a world that only 1% of your players will ever see.
AS for what is permadeath: any system that include the delete of the character at a certain point are permadeath system. does not mean must be in one time or it can even be that a companions can save you. as long as the possibility is there, it is a permadeath system, in my view
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Originally posted by Gweyr I can never understand these people who want permadeath in a game. You play a MMO, your character dies, you want permadeath? Delete your character. TADA! You now have permadeath in your MMO.
Actually, permadeath with some kind of descendant aspect and inheritance could be kinda cool.
would keep the characters a bit more interesting, each new "generation" could potentially be stronger than the first, etc and so on.
Then again, implementation would probably be jacked, and the devs would mess it all up and just make it suck.
If you are so intrigued by perma death you're already playing that mmo. You could get in a car crash on the way home. Your house might catch on fire when you sleep tonight. Someone might shoot you straight in the face at the gas station.
Does any of this sound fun?
If you answered No then maybe you could realize people don't want to play for entertainment with the same ill circumstances.
I'm sure there are some people in here that will want to play a game like that.. I'm not saying you don't exist, but please remember that there are also people out there who like to watch films of people defecating on each other.
He didnt say he was designing a game for 'mainstream' now did he? Just maybe think for a second he might be happy with jkust making a game and sharing it with close friends? I know I love starting up a server in NWN 2 and sharing the experience with my good friends. mainstream can go to hell
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
Originally posted by Gweyr I can never understand these people who want permadeath in a game. You play a MMO, your character dies, you want permadeath? Delete your character. TADA! You now have permadeath in your MMO.
lol i just cannot not respond to this what else is there to add after this??? :P
well, dont really think that perma death is a good idea just because it would get all the action out of a game, no real daring risky and exiting moments anymore, and a lot of low lvl pvping...
"There actually is a path, you just have to be able to see it..." "well if that is all," said the blind guy.
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Create a game with three seperate "planes" of existence. Once you reach a certain point in the game, like the "end-game" or whatever you want to call it, if you character dies under certain circumstances you stay dead and your "character" heads to one of the other planes of existence.
Doesn't have to be 3, doesn't have to be heaven/hell etc, but if your character dies in one realm you can respawn to another realm of existence, and fight your way back to being able to be "reborn" to the main "alive" people's realm. or you can rise to the other, better "dead" realm or fall to the lower one.
I imagine something where players who have been playing for a while, been alive and dead in different realms for a long enough period of time have gained enough influence with whatever forces rule over these planes of existence to be able to travel freely between them.
Kind of like Constantine.
It'd be pretty cool, you're playing the game doing whatever and some of the absolute worste circumstances happen, and your character dies. You then find yourself in a very dark and evil plane of existence and have to fight your way out, earning reputation and favor with some disgruntled employees of the Dark Prince who rules that realm.
Once you're able to return to the realm of the living, you realize you owe a pretty big debt to the other realm, the happy fun whtie lights and utopic one. So now, as you battle about the world of the living you are trying to pay off your debt to heaven while running from the wrath of hell. And if something happens and you die again, where will you go? Maybe you'll end up in heaven, and in order to pay back your debt they send you back to Earth to do good, or they send you to Hell to fight the Darkness. Maybe you go back to Hell and as your fight your way out become even more indebted to Heaven at the cost of the Dark Lord in hell really, really disliking you. To the point where he'll follow you wherever you go, in any of the realms...
I mean just imagine the PVP and PVE possibilities of being able to work your way to freely traveling between the realms of darkness, light, and the realm of the living. How every action in any of the realms will weigh on your fate in all three of them.
It's not really perma-death, but it has a lot more meaning/consequence then a simple re-spawn.
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
I can never understand these people who want permadeath in a game. You play a MMO, your character dies, you want permadeath? Delete your character. TADA! You now have permadeath in your MMO.
lol i just cannot not respond to this
what else is there to add after this??? :P
well, dont really think that perma death is a good idea just because it would get all the action out of a game, no real daring risky and exiting moments anymore, and a lot of low lvl pvping...
Even with a fast leveling game like WoW, I'd love to see some of the pro-perma death crowd try this. If your character dies, for any reason, delete him/her and then start a new one. I can almost garauntee you'll find yourself cheating. Make sure to do it on a PVP server too.
"The server crashed, it wasn't my fault."
"That's not fair he was 50 levels higher then me."
permadeath is defined nicely by Shawn's blog (used to post here under BalanceFX). you have to google for his blog PErmadeath has a few forms: 1) In DDO there are guil;ds that will delete their toon upon death like some have eluded to in this post. 2) sometimes in games two pvpers might duel and agree to delete or transfer upon failure. 3) limited number of lives then u get deleted 4) aging- whereas your character will surely die in a set period of time.
the biggest games I know of that have it is Diablo series, some small MMOs, and some Asian MMOs have it. so ya im lol'ing at the nuts that say no one big will ever do it. I've seen it not really worth arguing especially on a public general forum. much better topic to discuss on developer forums you'll get good feed there. this is more of a brainstorm. opf course the replies will come slow and will be long and well thought out
So tell this nut (me) what big mmorpg does this ? :P
its an eastern MMORPG I dont know the english translation of the name, its an optional hardcore mode in the vein of Diablo. MMORPGs are a lot more common overseas say I guess they feel pressured to innovate a bit more to get noticed. but now to think of it I dont know how popular the MMO is and cant remem the name. okay so maybe I was talking out of my ass I was really thinking of Diablo but its not an MMO
If you are so intrigued by perma death you're already playing that mmo. You could get in a car crash on the way home. Your house might catch on fire when you sleep tonight. Someone might shoot you straight in the face at the gas station.
Does any of this sound fun?
If you answered No then maybe you could realize people don't want to play for entertainment with the same ill circumstances.
I'm sure there are some people in here that will want to play a game like that.. I'm not saying you don't exist, but please remember that there are also people out there who like to watch films of people defecating on each other.
He didnt say he was designing a game for 'mainstream' now did he? Just maybe think for a second he might be happy with jkust making a game and sharing it with close friends? I know I love starting up a server in NWN 2 and sharing the experience with my good friends. mainstream can go to hell
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
yes mainstream can kiss my rear end I'm sick of watered down BS. I want more EVEs, more UOs, more creative masterpieces. CCP/EVE didnt worry about 'mainstream' they made something tight for us vets and hit the nail. so yes I say screw mainstream you wont appeal to vast majority unless you topple WoW anyway which isn't happenin anytime soon
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$
WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Permadeath only works if you have a set number of lives and you can gain more...but only by collecting 100coins...and if you die completely...everything you've done respawns and whoever you were playing gets pissed off cause now he's trapped and cant go back for the freaking white boat that just spawned.
I can never understand these people who want permadeath in a game. You play a MMO, your character dies, you want permadeath? Delete your character. TADA! You now have permadeath in your MMO.
lol i just cannot not respond to this
what else is there to add after this??? :P
well, dont really think that perma death is a good idea just because it would get all the action out of a game, no real daring risky and exiting moments anymore, and a lot of low lvl pvping...
Even with a fast leveling game like WoW, I'd love to see some of the pro-perma death crowd try this. If your character dies, for any reason, delete him/her and then start a new one. I can almost garauntee you'll find yourself cheating. Make sure to do it on a PVP server too.
"The server crashed, it wasn't my fault."
"That's not fair he was 50 levels higher then me."
And so forth. Try it for a few days (hours)
In Starport they actually tell newbies (well a Dev told me) to roll on the rebang server first. Rebang server the universe ages and respawns. everyone gets PD'ed and it rebangs. Its great I discussed it I think in my blog here. to rehash it again- it helps newbies learn the ropes. You have a whole community to level with you. Everyone makes friends and forms guilds. pretty much equal footing
towards the end of the bang ya its all out war, murder,stealing, and just pure hell. It was fun.
There are many versions of PD. I've played PD-Aging (permadeath, character on a timer)
just had a thought on a semi-perma death system Create a game with three seperate "planes" of existence. Once you reach a certain point in the game, like the "end-game" or whatever you want to call it, if you character dies under certain circumstances you stay dead and your "character" heads to one of the other planes of existence. Doesn't have to be 3, doesn't have to be heaven/hell etc, but if your character dies in one realm you can respawn to another realm of existence, and fight your way back to being able to be "reborn" to the main "alive" people's realm. or you can rise to the other, better "dead" realm or fall to the lower one. I imagine something where players who have been playing for a while, been alive and dead in different realms for a long enough period of time have gained enough influence with whatever forces rule over these planes of existence to be able to travel freely between them. Kind of like Constantine. It'd be pretty cool, you're playing the game doing whatever and some of the absolute worste circumstances happen, and your character dies. You then find yourself in a very dark and evil plane of existence and have to fight your way out, earning reputation and favor with some disgruntled employees of the Dark Prince who rules that realm. Once you're able to return to the realm of the living, you realize you owe a pretty big debt to the other realm, the happy fun whtie lights and utopic one. So now, as you battle about the world of the living you are trying to pay off your debt to heaven while running from the wrath of hell. And if something happens and you die again, where will you go? Maybe you'll end up in heaven, and in order to pay back your debt they send you back to Earth to do good, or they send you to Hell to fight the Darkness. Maybe you go back to Hell and as your fight your way out become even more indebted to Heaven at the cost of the Dark Lord in hell really, really disliking you. To the point where he'll follow you wherever you go, in any of the realms... I mean just imagine the PVP and PVE possibilities of being able to work your way to freely traveling between the realms of darkness, light, and the realm of the living. How every action in any of the realms will weigh on your fate in all three of them. It's not really perma-death, but it has a lot more meaning/consequence then a simple re-spawn.
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$
WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Might take a few things out of order in response but 1st.
I didn't know that the "scores" provided by the community of this site was indicative of anything other than what numbers people push. I'm sure I or anyone could link to other sites that would show an argument contrasting yours for nearly any game. Those sites ratings would mea just as fucking little as this ones.
All the mainstream push has done is got more people accustomed to playing a pay to play service. If someone wasn't playing an MMO or coming to sites like this just how in the hell do you think they would ever hear of EVE? I never said anything of the mainstream being good or the way to make a game but at least it opened the fucking market up.
Permadeath would work great in a game designed around it. Instead of a long level grind you could do something else and the whole permadeath thing would keep players busy. Most mmos have a grind soley to keep players busy and paying fees. Instead of having levels you could just have skills based on points and have all character advancement come from gear amassed over the period of time that a character manages to stay alive.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I played a pvp mud that had eventual perma death. For every 4 deaths you would lose a point of con. A player had about 15-23 con. I think it makes pvp way more fun when staying alive really means something, not to mention full looting as well.
I played a pvp mud that had eventual perma death. For every 4 deaths you would lose a point of con. A player had about 15-23 con. I think it makes pvp way more fun when staying alive really means something, not to mention full looting as well.
Personally i prefer full loot to permadeath, played a couple full loot muds back in the day, but i'll take anything over the lack of death penalties in current mmos (a debuff, loss of coins, or corpse runs, or slight xp loss are not death penalties)
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I do not dislike perma death, but it should be something you control. Not becouse some rich kid could buy an account from Ebay and uses his level 999 to smash in your level 5 getting it perma killed. I play Face of Mankind an futheristic FPS MMO in with you buy cloning insurence with takes away 10K bi weekly. with is not that hard to gain though. However if you do not run mission in the worse case you could run out of cloning and lose all you XP and items you had left.
With this insurence you can be killed unlimitly until it runs out. (Benifit of this is that you have to constanly pay something, means that you give some money back to the economy and seeing it is an closed economy this is an good thing). all you items can be looted though (Bar implents and weapons)
However I do favor harsh punisment for death though. Dropping all you loot for exemple.
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$
WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Might take a few things out of order in response but 1st.
I didn't know that the "scores" provided by the community of this site was indicative of anything other than what numbers people push. I'm sure I or anyone could link to other sites that would show an argument contrasting yours for nearly any game. Those sites ratings would mea just as fucking little as this ones.
All the mainstream push has done is got more people accustomed to playing a pay to play service. If someone wasn't playing an MMO or coming to sites like this just how in the hell do you think they would ever hear of EVE? I never said anything of the mainstream being good or the way to make a game but at least it opened the fucking market up.
where are you getting this last article I've read at Gamasutra blames WoW for screwing up the Games market and running many game devs out-of-business. They blame WoW for lower game sales overall because now gamers find it cheaper to just stick with an MMO.
Gamasutra is one of the most respected game dev sites in this industry. WoW helps the industry my ass my good friends that started with WoW is still playing WoW. It would not add 1 million subs so quickly if it didnt retain so many
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolver
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$
WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Might take a few things out of order in response but 1st.
I didn't know that the "scores" provided by the community of this site was indicative of anything other than what numbers people push. I'm sure I or anyone could link to other sites that would show an argument contrasting yours for nearly any game. Those sites ratings would mea just as fucking little as this ones.
All the mainstream push has done is got more people accustomed to playing a pay to play service. If someone wasn't playing an MMO or coming to sites like this just how in the hell do you think they would ever hear of EVE? I never said anything of the mainstream being good or the way to make a game but at least it opened the fucking market up.
where are you getting this last article I've read at Gamasutra blames WoW for screwing up the Games market and running many game devs out-of-business. They blame WoW for lower game sales overall because now gamers find it cheaper to just stick with an MMO.
Gamasutra is one of the most respected game dev sites in this industry. WoW helps the industry my ass my good friends that started with WoW is still playing WoW. It would not add 1 million subs so quickly if it didnt retain so many
Why the fuck are you so insistant on WoW? There are many other (not as large) but mainstream games that opened up this market. As for blaming Wow thats just a fucking scapegoat for people who can't come up with a better fucking answer.
WoW is ruining the mmo industry by convincing devs that everyone out there wants to play a game like WoW, now the next gen mmos are going to be (unsuccessful) WoW clones. We are going to have to wait till the clones fail to get some actual innovation.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Comments
Computer games are basicly for 2 reasons:
1. PvP, winning, pwning issue
2. Adventure, story, something that you cant do in reality
I guess majority of ppl, play mmo because of first reason. To get stronger and kick somebodys ass. Killing somebody permamently is definetly more pleasant. But dying after weeks or months of farming? Lol
It would not hurt however to see permadeath in a game less grindy (like shadowbane). Basicly in games where you can have almost max lvl in 1-2 weeks, additional permadeath server is a good idea to me.
And definetly if there ever comes out game which is more rpg than hack&slash&grind, permadeath would be nice, because the game would be more realistic. I think there is nothing wrong to have permadeath in game like "Second Life"
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
So tell this nut (me) what big mmorpg does this ? :P
I've heard of the guilds that delete their characters upon death and I've heard a countless time the "if you want permadeath, then just delete your char when you die and ta daaa you got permadeath" argument.
Well, the guilds are free to do as the please, but the second argument is basically flawed.
It all come down to game design. Usually permadeath advocates wants a game to be DESIGNED around permadeath.
In a normal mmorpg there are too many variables to insure a viable permadeath experience and the games are designed around the fact you can die multiple times.
Take WoW PvP for example. in the average WSG battle, everyone in both sides will die at least once, usually multiple times. That's because the game is designed that away, trying to play that game with permadeath on, so to speak, would be pointless.
Even the DDO guilds that practice permadeath, I ask you, what cookie you give your clerics for losing some of their best high level spells as raise dead and resurrection are? or those works?
So point 1, a permadeath game should be designed with permadeath in mind. Characters should suffer different fates or death should be harder to inflict. maybe at 0 hp the character is merely unconsious and if a friend can reach them in time, then they can be saved. Even then, going down does not mean dying exclusivly, it depends on what you were fighting. spiders and the like will keep you alive even for days to eat you fresh later, giving you chance to wake up naked in a cocoon and maybe having a chance at escaping (or your companions at rescuing you)
humanoids rarely kills in cold blood. some definitly would and they would be the "hard" monsters, most though will rob you and then toss you in a ditch... or take you prisoner for ransom.
point 2, no one shot one kill deaths. meaning multiple lifes. that coupled with death not being so exclusive would make it possible.
point 3, gameplay should be fun from the get go. Making a decently powerful character with free access to the whole world should take couple days at most, even less. There can be oher way to power after that, but definitly, you do not want to build a world that only 1% of your players will ever see.
AS for what is permadeath: any system that include the delete of the character at a certain point are permadeath system. does not mean must be in one time or it can even be that a companions can save you. as long as the possibility is there, it is a permadeath system, in my view
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Actually, permadeath with some kind of descendant aspect and inheritance could be kinda cool.
would keep the characters a bit more interesting, each new "generation" could potentially be stronger than the first, etc and so on.
Then again, implementation would probably be jacked, and the devs would mess it all up and just make it suck.
D.
He didnt say he was designing a game for 'mainstream' now did he? Just maybe think for a second he might be happy with jkust making a game and sharing it with close friends? I know I love starting up a server in NWN 2 and sharing the experience with my good friends. mainstream can go to hell
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolverlol i just cannot not respond to this
what else is there to add after this??? :P
well, dont really think that perma death is a good idea just because it would get all the action out of a game, no real daring risky and exiting moments anymore, and a lot of low lvl pvping...
"There actually is a path, you just have to be able to see it..."
"well if that is all," said the blind guy.
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
just had a thought on a semi-perma death system
Create a game with three seperate "planes" of existence. Once you reach a certain point in the game, like the "end-game" or whatever you want to call it, if you character dies under certain circumstances you stay dead and your "character" heads to one of the other planes of existence.
Doesn't have to be 3, doesn't have to be heaven/hell etc, but if your character dies in one realm you can respawn to another realm of existence, and fight your way back to being able to be "reborn" to the main "alive" people's realm. or you can rise to the other, better "dead" realm or fall to the lower one.
I imagine something where players who have been playing for a while, been alive and dead in different realms for a long enough period of time have gained enough influence with whatever forces rule over these planes of existence to be able to travel freely between them.
Kind of like Constantine.
It'd be pretty cool, you're playing the game doing whatever and some of the absolute worste circumstances happen, and your character dies. You then find yourself in a very dark and evil plane of existence and have to fight your way out, earning reputation and favor with some disgruntled employees of the Dark Prince who rules that realm.
Once you're able to return to the realm of the living, you realize you owe a pretty big debt to the other realm, the happy fun whtie lights and utopic one. So now, as you battle about the world of the living you are trying to pay off your debt to heaven while running from the wrath of hell. And if something happens and you die again, where will you go? Maybe you'll end up in heaven, and in order to pay back your debt they send you back to Earth to do good, or they send you to Hell to fight the Darkness. Maybe you go back to Hell and as your fight your way out become even more indebted to Heaven at the cost of the Dark Lord in hell really, really disliking you. To the point where he'll follow you wherever you go, in any of the realms...
I mean just imagine the PVP and PVE possibilities of being able to work your way to freely traveling between the realms of darkness, light, and the realm of the living. How every action in any of the realms will weigh on your fate in all three of them.
It's not really perma-death, but it has a lot more meaning/consequence then a simple re-spawn.
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
lol i just cannot not respond to this
what else is there to add after this??? :P
well, dont really think that perma death is a good idea just because it would get all the action out of a game, no real daring risky and exiting moments anymore, and a lot of low lvl pvping...
Even with a fast leveling game like WoW, I'd love to see some of the pro-perma death crowd try this. If your character dies, for any reason, delete him/her and then start a new one. I can almost garauntee you'll find yourself cheating. Make sure to do it on a PVP server too.
"The server crashed, it wasn't my fault."
"That's not fair he was 50 levels higher then me."
And so forth. Try it for a few days (hours)
I would say that perma-death should be dead until rezzed by cleric/doctor/etc. With a hugh exp loss and equipment damage.
You could have wandering rezzers in the game also.
So tell this nut (me) what big mmorpg does this ? :P
its an eastern MMORPG I dont know the english translation of the name, its an optional hardcore mode in the vein of Diablo. MMORPGs are a lot more common overseas say I guess they feel pressured to innovate a bit more to get noticed. but now to think of it I dont know how popular the MMO is and cant remem the name. okay so maybe I was talking out of my ass I was really thinking of Diablo but its not an MMO
He didnt say he was designing a game for 'mainstream' now did he? Just maybe think for a second he might be happy with jkust making a game and sharing it with close friends? I know I love starting up a server in NWN 2 and sharing the experience with my good friends. mainstream can go to hell
Yes mainstream can go to hell. If we didn't have all them assholes purchasing and supporting the developers I guess we could all be online arguing about hardcore Jenga.. Knock the tower down and face a semi loaded revolveryes mainstream can kiss my rear end I'm sick of watered down BS. I want more EVEs, more UOs, more creative masterpieces. CCP/EVE didnt worry about 'mainstream' they made something tight for us vets and hit the nail. so yes I say screw mainstream you wont appeal to vast majority unless you topple WoW anyway which isn't happenin anytime soon
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Permadeath only works if you have a set number of lives and you can gain more...but only by collecting 100coins...and if you die completely...everything you've done respawns and whoever you were playing gets pissed off cause now he's trapped and cant go back for the freaking white boat that just spawned.
lol i just cannot not respond to this
what else is there to add after this??? :P
well, dont really think that perma death is a good idea just because it would get all the action out of a game, no real daring risky and exiting moments anymore, and a lot of low lvl pvping...
Even with a fast leveling game like WoW, I'd love to see some of the pro-perma death crowd try this. If your character dies, for any reason, delete him/her and then start a new one. I can almost garauntee you'll find yourself cheating. Make sure to do it on a PVP server too.
"The server crashed, it wasn't my fault."
"That's not fair he was 50 levels higher then me."
And so forth. Try it for a few days (hours)
In Starport they actually tell newbies (well a Dev told me) to roll on the rebang server first. Rebang server the universe ages and respawns. everyone gets PD'ed and it rebangs. Its great I discussed it I think in my blog here. to rehash it again- it helps newbies learn the ropes. You have a whole community to level with you. Everyone makes friends and forms guilds. pretty much equal footing
towards the end of the bang ya its all out war, murder,stealing, and just pure hell. It was fun.
There are many versions of PD. I've played PD-Aging (permadeath, character on a timer)
awesome idea bro I love it. two thumbs up
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Might take a few things out of order in response but 1st.I didn't know that the "scores" provided by the community of this site was indicative of anything other than what numbers people push. I'm sure I or anyone could link to other sites that would show an argument contrasting yours for nearly any game. Those sites ratings would mea just as fucking little as this ones.
All the mainstream push has done is got more people accustomed to playing a pay to play service. If someone wasn't playing an MMO or coming to sites like this just how in the hell do you think they would ever hear of EVE? I never said anything of the mainstream being good or the way to make a game but at least it opened the fucking market up.
Permadeath would work great in a game designed around it. Instead of a long level grind you could do something else and the whole permadeath thing would keep players busy. Most mmos have a grind soley to keep players busy and paying fees. Instead of having levels you could just have skills based on points and have all character advancement come from gear amassed over the period of time that a character manages to stay alive.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I played a pvp mud that had eventual perma death. For every 4 deaths you would lose a point of con. A player had about 15-23 con. I think it makes pvp way more fun when staying alive really means something, not to mention full looting as well.
Personally i prefer full loot to permadeath, played a couple full loot muds back in the day, but i'll take anything over the lack of death penalties in current mmos (a debuff, loss of coins, or corpse runs, or slight xp loss are not death penalties)
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I do not dislike perma death, but it should be something you control. Not becouse some rich kid could buy an account from Ebay and uses his level 999 to smash in your level 5 getting it perma killed. I play Face of Mankind an futheristic FPS MMO in with you buy cloning insurence with takes away 10K bi weekly. with is not that hard to gain though. However if you do not run mission in the worse case you could run out of cloning and lose all you XP and items you had left.
With this insurence you can be killed unlimitly until it runs out. (Benifit of this is that you have to constanly pay something, means that you give some money back to the economy and seeing it is an closed economy this is an good thing). all you items can be looted though (Bar implents and weapons)
However I do favor harsh punisment for death though. Dropping all you loot for exemple.
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Might take a few things out of order in response but 1st.I didn't know that the "scores" provided by the community of this site was indicative of anything other than what numbers people push. I'm sure I or anyone could link to other sites that would show an argument contrasting yours for nearly any game. Those sites ratings would mea just as fucking little as this ones.
All the mainstream push has done is got more people accustomed to playing a pay to play service. If someone wasn't playing an MMO or coming to sites like this just how in the hell do you think they would ever hear of EVE? I never said anything of the mainstream being good or the way to make a game but at least it opened the fucking market up.
where are you getting this last article I've read at Gamasutra blames WoW for screwing up the Games market and running many game devs out-of-business. They blame WoW for lower game sales overall because now gamers find it cheaper to just stick with an MMO.
Gamasutra is one of the most respected game dev sites in this industry. WoW helps the industry my ass my good friends that started with WoW is still playing WoW. It would not add 1 million subs so quickly if it didnt retain so many
I really love how you constantly hit on those who has a different palyer style than you. Why dont we deport all those who want to NPC hunt to some island in the Atlantic Ocean and leave them there, yea thats a good idea
As always there's a large dose of sarcasm put in the post. I personally don't care what ones play style is, but the thread is debating a gameplay mechanic that you don't see in commercially supported games. It's a simple reminder to be thankful for the mainstream, regardless if you directly benefit from it. Part of that mainstream money benefits the devs who make the games you do enjoy
BTW I like the whole Antlantic Ocean idea. Maybe we should make a thread on it as well, seeing as the likelyhood of someone able to take us up on the offer seems as likely as someone seriously contemplating PD
mainstream hasnt done crap for CCP/EVE or Starport its only helped WoW seriously please elaborate how Blizzard has helped CCP. My silly WoW friends wont give EVE/CoX/Guil;d Wars or anything else a try. sure maybe they tried LOTRO so maybe Turbine + Blizzard got helped by the mainstream $$$WoW also helped crush SWG Pre-CU so ya, I want to know how mainstream has helped this industry so much. ev1 here at mmorpg pretty much depise WoW hence its low score.
Might take a few things out of order in response but 1st.I didn't know that the "scores" provided by the community of this site was indicative of anything other than what numbers people push. I'm sure I or anyone could link to other sites that would show an argument contrasting yours for nearly any game. Those sites ratings would mea just as fucking little as this ones.
All the mainstream push has done is got more people accustomed to playing a pay to play service. If someone wasn't playing an MMO or coming to sites like this just how in the hell do you think they would ever hear of EVE? I never said anything of the mainstream being good or the way to make a game but at least it opened the fucking market up.
where are you getting this last article I've read at Gamasutra blames WoW for screwing up the Games market and running many game devs out-of-business. They blame WoW for lower game sales overall because now gamers find it cheaper to just stick with an MMO.
Gamasutra is one of the most respected game dev sites in this industry. WoW helps the industry my ass my good friends that started with WoW is still playing WoW. It would not add 1 million subs so quickly if it didnt retain so many
Why the fuck are you so insistant on WoW? There are many other (not as large) but mainstream games that opened up this market. As for blaming Wow thats just a fucking scapegoat for people who can't come up with a better fucking answer.
WoW is ruining the mmo industry by convincing devs that everyone out there wants to play a game like WoW, now the next gen mmos are going to be (unsuccessful) WoW clones. We are going to have to wait till the clones fail to get some actual innovation.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!