Maybe the community has noever change. The reason you found alot of friendly people in uo is problaly because you played it alot and got to know alot of other players well. It's the same with all mmo's. I think the problem now is that people have a delusion that everyone is elitist. There are alot of nice people out there that enjoy group, the problem is people can't be bothered with forming groups and more.
Well the best comunity is by faaar in L2, the people there were just so nice words cannot describe the maturness in that game. for example a lbl 60 was helping me lvl in high lvl places for like 6 hours instead to just care for himself, i warrior in our guild gave me full d armor for free to make my start easier, everyone i asked for some advice info was helpfull and nice. Sadly the game takes up ALOT of time so i had to quit but i will return sooner or later.
I hate the /ignore I mostly enjoy conflict in theese games, it can be conflict in fighting one another or just mouthing off and messing with someones head but soon they put me on ignore list and the interaction ends, noone wants to take the time even to fight with you, like the other one said, they put you on ignore if you roleplay an evil character, not evil in griefer killer, but evil in calling them inadequate names and such, saying that their gear realy does suck and man are those elves gay...
I could write an entire book on the social psychology of MMO's, lol. What MMO developers need to do is hire a sociologist or someone of the type to help them develop their game. You must understand that humans in groups must be guided in a specific way, with certain limitations and freedoms, or else they will play the game the opposite of how it is intended to be played.
I've said before that a game designer would do well to look at Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs when developing a game. Using this a framework to social interaction and charater development would create a very immersive and addictive game IMO.
Problem with todays mmorpgs are that they are more and more like single player games. Newest mmorpgs are supporting too much stuff what are more about personal goals.
1. Levels
- Support talking about levels, seperate players and game content. It's all about attitude, I'm stronger than You. Levels support uber items and collecting them. Levels become so strong that it's only reason and goal why players play the game. Levels make game very linear, like single player games.
2. Soloability
- Support been alone, doing stuff so that You don't have to be with others or rely on other players. You don't need others, because You can do everyting alone. No need to talk others.
In the end the game mechanic is all supporting the me, me and me attitude. So, no wonder if there isn't anymore good communities inside the games. I did not like the old forced group games, but at least , in many times the community was better in those games. What todays games are missing is goals and purpose beyon personal goals, like community goals. Why we play the game, just get our character stronger, so that we can brag how much more we have played than some other. People needs more, like some other reasons to play the mmorpgs. Like playing the mmorpg would actually affect the game world. Not some kill 20 rat to get next level and then rats respawn in same spot.
1. Levels - Support talking about levels, seperate players and game content. It's all about attitude, I'm stronger than You. Levels support uber items and collecting them. Levels become so strong that it's only reason and goal why players play the game. Levels make game very linear, like single player games.
I agree completely.
Levels create to much division among players. The effects are much more noticable on a game or server that already has a meager player base. And with so many MMO's available, or soon to be available, these effects are going to become even greater as MMO consumers become too widespread over too many games.
So next time i join a random group i should become lifelong friends with everyone in that group?
I challenge you to find ANYWHERE in this thread that someone said anything even CLOSE to this.
If you were to actually read before you post then you would see that the OP not only didn't say anything like this, but the OP said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I QUOTE
Originally posted by OP
In an MMO, I do not desire a deep friendship or a long-lasting relationship. All I want is a community in which I can interact with"
Please at least take the time to read before making such a sarcastic statement.
I'd have to agree with Ronny. DAoC was the first MMO I ever touched and since I was new and young I wound up making friends quicker than playing through and joining a guild. After that I wound up leveling with other people and having fun grouping with all the other classes I found and seeing how they play. Then I found the pvp aspect of the game and wound up camping in the pvp dungeon a lot while leveling with other people and once I hit Emain the community seemed to explode with more people to fight the advancing realms. There was always a universal goal it seemed like. Now I find myself having to make sure everyone is the same level as me (nothing new except harder to find willing people my level) AND make sure they're on the same quest as me. Back in the old DAoC days the only quests were the epic ones that no one did anymore b/c the gear was outdated, so it was constant dungeon crawling or area camping. Those types of camping methods made it so you grouped to kill tougher mobs and gain more experience. DAoC's constant monster grind was switched up by spreading out different level mobs throught same zones and getting people to travel zones between levels than staying in one zone for the next 10 levels. It got you out into the world with the simple goal of rvring (defence or offence) once you reached the max level (which back then was no easy task). It made the game more rewarding it seemed and open ended. Now games are forced to put out content expansions (like DAoC did and eventually led to its ruin) to keep players interested. I'm still waiting for the game that can grab my attention and make me anxious to log in like DAoC used to. Of all the ones i've tried, FFXI seems to be the only one remotely similar but takes so long to get anything going you have to devote 3 hours at least for a single session so most the times I find myself not logging in b/c of lack of time. Another problem with the WoW raiding, the seemingly only option for socializing that also took up vast ammounts of time.
It sounds a lot of people are in the same situation I am but no game seems to be putting out any answers. Hopefully devs will one day listen and something great can be made.
I'd have to agree with Ronny. DAoC was the first MMO I ever touched and since I was new and young I wound up making friends quicker than playing through and joining a guild. After that I wound up leveling with other people and having fun grouping with all the other classes I found and seeing how they play. Then I found the pvp aspect of the game and wound up camping in the pvp dungeon a lot while leveling with other people and once I hit Emain the community seemed to explode with more people to fight the advancing realms. There was always a universal goal it seemed like. Now I find myself having to make sure everyone is the same level as me (nothing new except harder to find willing people my level) AND make sure they're on the same quest as me. Back in the old DAoC days the only quests were the epic ones that no one did anymore b/c the gear was outdated, so it was constant dungeon crawling or area camping. Those types of camping methods made it so you grouped to kill tougher mobs and gain more experience. DAoC's constant monster grind was switched up by spreading out different level mobs throught same zones and getting people to travel zones between levels than staying in one zone for the next 10 levels. It got you out into the world with the simple goal of rvring (defence or offence) once you reached the max level (which back then was no easy task). It made the game more rewarding it seemed and open ended. Now games are forced to put out content expansions (like DAoC did and eventually led to its ruin) to keep players interested. I'm still waiting for the game that can grab my attention and make me anxious to log in like DAoC used to. Of all the ones i've tried, FFXI seems to be the only one remotely similar but takes so long to get anything going you have to devote 3 hours at least for a single session so most the times I find myself not logging in b/c of lack of time. Another problem with the WoW raiding, the seemingly only option for socializing that also took up vast ammounts of time. It sounds a lot of people are in the same situation I am but no game seems to be putting out any answers. Hopefully devs will one day listen and something great can be made.
So next time i join a random group i should become lifelong friends with everyone in that group?
I challenge you to find ANYWHERE in this thread that someone said anything even CLOSE to this.
If you were to actually read before you post then you would see that the OP not only didn't say anything like this, but the OP said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I QUOTE
Originally posted by OP
In an MMO, I do not desire a deep friendship or a long-lasting relationship. All I want is a community in which I can interact with"
Please at least take the time to read before making such a sarcastic statement.
Community to interact with hrmm, so that just means lots of people playing...well if you mean more targets to pk then I'm with you. Kinda sucked in vanguard when people started leaving cause there was no one to kill!
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
So next time i join a random group i should become lifelong friends with everyone in that group?
I challenge you to find ANYWHERE in this thread that someone said anything even CLOSE to this.
If you were to actually read before you post then you would see that the OP not only didn't say anything like this, but the OP said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I QUOTE
Originally posted by OP
In an MMO, I do not desire a deep friendship or a long-lasting relationship. All I want is a community in which I can interact with"
Please at least take the time to read before making such a sarcastic statement.
Community to interact with hrmm, so that just means lots of people playing...well if you mean more targets to pk then I'm with you. Kinda sucked in vanguard when people started leaving cause there was no one to kill!
Yes, more people playing, but ALSO having them actually interact with me. This includes TALKING, whether they're talking while dying, or talking while being killed, as long as they aren't Mute Soloers who refuse to say a single word.
LOTRO had a lot of people on their servers, but everyone would rather solo or group grind quests without saying a single word for hours.
No communication is worse than grouping with NPC's.
I think the real feel of the world is a big thing also. After thinking of all the DAoC days that made it good it seemed like the end-game RvR they had setup was perfect. The casual players who didn't like pvp that much would always answer their guild's call when the time came to defend their realm from one or both of the advancing ones and keeping your relics from them. The more elitist ones would do the same but typically be the offensive for the realm keeping the enemies on their toes and forcing them to take different routes ect. Either way, both the extremes were complementing each other in the overall goal of strengthening your realm and that is just something i've yet to find anywhere in a game.
I think the real feel of the world is a big thing also. After thinking of all the DAoC days that made it good it seemed like the end-game RvR they had setup was perfect. The casual players who didn't like pvp that much would always answer their guild's call when the time came to defend their realm from one or both of the advancing ones and keeping your relics from them. The more elitist ones would do the same but typically be the offensive for the realm keeping the enemies on their toes and forcing them to take different routes ect. Either way, both the extremes were complementing each other in the overall goal of strengthening your realm and that is just something i've yet to find anywhere in a game.
Although I played DAoC from before beta until ToA release, then quit, I never got to experience RvR out of thidranki until I returned right before the newest expansion.
I loved old school Thidranki though, I had a scout and fire wizard on the RP server, and it was so fun! A lot changed since then, especially a complete revamp with the RvR expansion (Frontiers) and the upgraded graphics.
For PvE, I had an Armsman with a massive door for a shield and full out platemail. That was awesome.
With that said, I'm ignorant on the subject, but someone told me that back in the old days, everyone had about the same Realm Rank and RA's, and that is one of the reasons RvR isn't anywhere near as amazing as it once was. Now you have half the players RR7-10, so the new players who start off at RR0 are completely gimped. The only exception is Thidranki, which isn't anywhere near as fun as it once was. That and the low populations, which creates unbalanced populations (Albion is severally underpopulated in all but one or two battlegrounds.)
I hear ya Ronny, and props to you for slaying all the flamers (Do you have a sword +3 against flamers perchance?). Ever since I left UO and EQ I have not felt the same community in other games whether it was my fault or the games. A little while ago I went back to EQ to see if it was as glorious as I had remembered it. And within the day I had 3-4 friends on my friend list all whom I respected and would want to group with/talk to.
UO was the same way, and I think the root of this problem is that MMO's nowadays try to keep you busy spamming buttons and concentrating on timing etc not allowing you the time to be social. UO perhaps not as much, but for anyone who remembers the Bone Wall or killing liches, starting up conversations with people at the forge etc. There is no time anymore.
It's funny you mentioned the younger crowd being more verbose as I have been messing around with a F2P game coming out called Red Stone and I had never heard a peep from the community until this 13 yr old started grouping up with me and friended me etc. So maybe its a mix between the games giving us no time and our lack of ambition in order to really go out and start new relationships.
Oh and when I first saw this thread name I wanted to express that it may be the horrible community that makes the horrible MMO, or it may be a horrible MMO that attracts a horrible community.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I only bothered to read the topic but I have to agree as well.. Final Fantasy which is average or even perhaps outdated still has the best community and that was and still is what makes the game shine. As you can see I play Guild Wars which has a terrible community. I still like the game a lot but I would like a whole lot more if the community could get it's act together...
But the question is? How does the developers or people make a community better? What can we do? I know I'd like to change the GW community for the better but I"m at a loss...
I hear ya Ronny, and props to you for slaying all the flamers (Do you have a sword +3 against flamers perchance?). Ever since I left UO and EQ I have not felt the same community in other games whether it was my fault or the games. A little while ago I went back to EQ to see if it was as glorious as I had remembered it. And within the day I had 3-4 friends on my friend list all whom I respected and would want to group with/talk to. UO was the same way, and I think the root of this problem is that MMO's nowadays try to keep you busy spamming buttons and concentrating on timing etc not allowing you the time to be social. UO perhaps not as much, but for anyone who remembers the Bone Wall or killing liches, starting up conversations with people at the forge etc. There is no time anymore. It's funny you mentioned the younger crowd being more verbose as I have been messing around with a F2P game coming out called Red Stone and I had never heard a peep from the community until this 13 yr old started grouping up with me and friended me etc. So maybe its a mix between the games giving us no time and our lack of ambition in order to really go out and start new relationships. Oh and when I first saw this thread name I wanted to express that it may be the horrible community that makes the horrible MMO, or it may be a horrible MMO that attracts a horrible community.
lol, thanks, it's a Falchon of +2 against flamers, but I also have a Flame Resistant shield and a few rings that help out a lot.
Killing liches, that was a blast, I remember dying so much though...lol. TRIPLE FLAMESTRIKE! AHHHH! The forge was an awesome place to start up conversations. I met one of my best IRL jr.high/highschool friends on UO. He wandered around cause he was lost, I grouped with him for a day, and then later I found out he lived in the same state, lol.
I think you're right about this though, the games do keep you busy spamming buttons and concentrating on timing.
In UO, it was easier to chat while doing something because there was no chat box or macros. At most you might have had the numbers 1234567890 as spell macros, IF that. To me, I was always able to type fast enough to talk while running and being killed at the same time. In other MMO's, I can't type while I run because I can no longer move forward (WASD controls) when I open the chat box to type.
The philosophy of "Always be pulling mobs" also doesn't help. I watched a video on "How to be a good tank on EQ2" and the guy said that a good tank is constantly pulling mobs right before you kill the first ones, so there is absolutely 0 downtime.
Maybe it was the downtime that allowed people to chat?
I only bothered to read the topic but I have to agree as well.. Final Fantasy which is average or even perhaps outdated still has the best community and that was and still is what makes the game shine. As you can see I play Guild Wars which has a terrible community. I still like the game a lot but I would like a whole lot more if the community could get it's act together... But the question is? How does the developers or people make a community better? What can we do? I know I'd like to change the GW community for the better but I"m at a loss...
That is a very good question, but very hard to answer.
Guild wars was built around not needing a community. I quit before the first expansion but it looked like it was one of the most solo heavy games out there. There were NPCs to choose from instead of having to talk and organize a group with people for the PvE aspect and the PvP battles gave no real reward besides for your guild. You could also just hop right in to random PuG battles on a lvl 20 character you made a few minutes earlier. All those from what I could tell were huge disadvantages to the community aspect but great for the hardcore pvpers.
Comments
Maybe the community has noever change. The reason you found alot of friendly people in uo is problaly because you played it alot and got to know alot of other players well. It's the same with all mmo's. I think the problem now is that people have a delusion that everyone is elitist. There are alot of nice people out there that enjoy group, the problem is people can't be bothered with forming groups and more.
Well the best comunity is by faaar in L2, the people there were just so nice words cannot describe the maturness in that game. for example a lbl 60 was helping me lvl in high lvl places for like 6 hours instead to just care for himself, i warrior in our guild gave me full d armor for free to make my start easier, everyone i asked for some advice info was helpfull and nice. Sadly the game takes up ALOT of time so i had to quit but i will return sooner or later.
I hate the /ignore I mostly enjoy conflict in theese games, it can be conflict in fighting one another or just mouthing off and messing with someones head but soon they put me on ignore list and the interaction ends, noone wants to take the time even to fight with you, like the other one said, they put you on ignore if you roleplay an evil character, not evil in griefer killer, but evil in calling them inadequate names and such, saying that their gear realy does suck and man are those elves gay...
I've said before that a game designer would do well to look at Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs when developing a game. Using this a framework to social interaction and charater development would create a very immersive and addictive game IMO.
Problem with todays mmorpgs are that they are more and more like single player games. Newest mmorpgs are supporting too much stuff what are more about personal goals.
1. Levels
- Support talking about levels, seperate players and game content. It's all about attitude, I'm stronger than You. Levels support uber items and collecting them. Levels become so strong that it's only reason and goal why players play the game. Levels make game very linear, like single player games.
2. Soloability
- Support been alone, doing stuff so that You don't have to be with others or rely on other players. You don't need others, because You can do everyting alone. No need to talk others.
In the end the game mechanic is all supporting the me, me and me attitude. So, no wonder if there isn't anymore good communities inside the games. I did not like the old forced group games, but at least , in many times the community was better in those games. What todays games are missing is goals and purpose beyon personal goals, like community goals. Why we play the game, just get our character stronger, so that we can brag how much more we have played than some other. People needs more, like some other reasons to play the mmorpgs. Like playing the mmorpg would actually affect the game world. Not some kill 20 rat to get next level and then rats respawn in same spot.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
I agree completely.
Levels create to much division among players. The effects are much more noticable on a game or server that already has a meager player base. And with so many MMO's available, or soon to be available, these effects are going to become even greater as MMO consumers become too widespread over too many games.
So next time i join a random group i should become lifelong friends with everyone in that group?
I challenge you to find ANYWHERE in this thread that someone said anything even CLOSE to this.
If you were to actually read before you post then you would see that the OP not only didn't say anything like this, but the OP said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I QUOTE
Please at least take the time to read before making such a sarcastic statement.
If you want a game with an awesome communtiy, try Ryzom. It has hands-down the best community that I have ever seen in a MMORPG.
Moonlightmist
I'd have to agree with Ronny. DAoC was the first MMO I ever touched and since I was new and young I wound up making friends quicker than playing through and joining a guild. After that I wound up leveling with other people and having fun grouping with all the other classes I found and seeing how they play. Then I found the pvp aspect of the game and wound up camping in the pvp dungeon a lot while leveling with other people and once I hit Emain the community seemed to explode with more people to fight the advancing realms. There was always a universal goal it seemed like. Now I find myself having to make sure everyone is the same level as me (nothing new except harder to find willing people my level) AND make sure they're on the same quest as me. Back in the old DAoC days the only quests were the epic ones that no one did anymore b/c the gear was outdated, so it was constant dungeon crawling or area camping. Those types of camping methods made it so you grouped to kill tougher mobs and gain more experience. DAoC's constant monster grind was switched up by spreading out different level mobs throught same zones and getting people to travel zones between levels than staying in one zone for the next 10 levels. It got you out into the world with the simple goal of rvring (defence or offence) once you reached the max level (which back then was no easy task). It made the game more rewarding it seemed and open ended. Now games are forced to put out content expansions (like DAoC did and eventually led to its ruin) to keep players interested. I'm still waiting for the game that can grab my attention and make me anxious to log in like DAoC used to. Of all the ones i've tried, FFXI seems to be the only one remotely similar but takes so long to get anything going you have to devote 3 hours at least for a single session so most the times I find myself not logging in b/c of lack of time. Another problem with the WoW raiding, the seemingly only option for socializing that also took up vast ammounts of time.
It sounds a lot of people are in the same situation I am but no game seems to be putting out any answers. Hopefully devs will one day listen and something great can be made.
Great post!
I challenge you to find ANYWHERE in this thread that someone said anything even CLOSE to this.
If you were to actually read before you post then you would see that the OP not only didn't say anything like this, but the OP said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I QUOTE
Please at least take the time to read before making such a sarcastic statement.
Community to interact with hrmm, so that just means lots of people playing...well if you mean more targets to pk then I'm with you. Kinda sucked in vanguard when people started leaving cause there was no one to kill!
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I challenge you to find ANYWHERE in this thread that someone said anything even CLOSE to this.
If you were to actually read before you post then you would see that the OP not only didn't say anything like this, but the OP said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I QUOTE
Please at least take the time to read before making such a sarcastic statement.
Community to interact with hrmm, so that just means lots of people playing...well if you mean more targets to pk then I'm with you. Kinda sucked in vanguard when people started leaving cause there was no one to kill!
Yes, more people playing, but ALSO having them actually interact with me. This includes TALKING, whether they're talking while dying, or talking while being killed, as long as they aren't Mute Soloers who refuse to say a single word.
LOTRO had a lot of people on their servers, but everyone would rather solo or group grind quests without saying a single word for hours.
No communication is worse than grouping with NPC's.
I think the real feel of the world is a big thing also. After thinking of all the DAoC days that made it good it seemed like the end-game RvR they had setup was perfect. The casual players who didn't like pvp that much would always answer their guild's call when the time came to defend their realm from one or both of the advancing ones and keeping your relics from them. The more elitist ones would do the same but typically be the offensive for the realm keeping the enemies on their toes and forcing them to take different routes ect. Either way, both the extremes were complementing each other in the overall goal of strengthening your realm and that is just something i've yet to find anywhere in a game.
Although I played DAoC from before beta until ToA release, then quit, I never got to experience RvR out of thidranki until I returned right before the newest expansion.
I loved old school Thidranki though, I had a scout and fire wizard on the RP server, and it was so fun! A lot changed since then, especially a complete revamp with the RvR expansion (Frontiers) and the upgraded graphics.
For PvE, I had an Armsman with a massive door for a shield and full out platemail. That was awesome.
With that said, I'm ignorant on the subject, but someone told me that back in the old days, everyone had about the same Realm Rank and RA's, and that is one of the reasons RvR isn't anywhere near as amazing as it once was. Now you have half the players RR7-10, so the new players who start off at RR0 are completely gimped. The only exception is Thidranki, which isn't anywhere near as fun as it once was. That and the low populations, which creates unbalanced populations (Albion is severally underpopulated in all but one or two battlegrounds.)
I hear ya Ronny, and props to you for slaying all the flamers (Do you have a sword +3 against flamers perchance?). Ever since I left UO and EQ I have not felt the same community in other games whether it was my fault or the games. A little while ago I went back to EQ to see if it was as glorious as I had remembered it. And within the day I had 3-4 friends on my friend list all whom I respected and would want to group with/talk to.
UO was the same way, and I think the root of this problem is that MMO's nowadays try to keep you busy spamming buttons and concentrating on timing etc not allowing you the time to be social. UO perhaps not as much, but for anyone who remembers the Bone Wall or killing liches, starting up conversations with people at the forge etc. There is no time anymore.
It's funny you mentioned the younger crowd being more verbose as I have been messing around with a F2P game coming out called Red Stone and I had never heard a peep from the community until this 13 yr old started grouping up with me and friended me etc. So maybe its a mix between the games giving us no time and our lack of ambition in order to really go out and start new relationships.
Oh and when I first saw this thread name I wanted to express that it may be the horrible community that makes the horrible MMO, or it may be a horrible MMO that attracts a horrible community.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I only bothered to read the topic but I have to agree as well.. Final Fantasy which is average or even perhaps outdated still has the best community and that was and still is what makes the game shine. As you can see I play Guild Wars which has a terrible community. I still like the game a lot but I would like a whole lot more if the community could get it's act together...
But the question is? How does the developers or people make a community better? What can we do? I know I'd like to change the GW community for the better but I"m at a loss...
lol, thanks, it's a Falchon of +2 against flamers, but I also have a Flame Resistant shield and a few rings that help out a lot.
Killing liches, that was a blast, I remember dying so much though...lol. TRIPLE FLAMESTRIKE! AHHHH! The forge was an awesome place to start up conversations. I met one of my best IRL jr.high/highschool friends on UO. He wandered around cause he was lost, I grouped with him for a day, and then later I found out he lived in the same state, lol.
I think you're right about this though, the games do keep you busy spamming buttons and concentrating on timing.
In UO, it was easier to chat while doing something because there was no chat box or macros. At most you might have had the numbers 1234567890 as spell macros, IF that. To me, I was always able to type fast enough to talk while running and being killed at the same time. In other MMO's, I can't type while I run because I can no longer move forward (WASD controls) when I open the chat box to type.
The philosophy of "Always be pulling mobs" also doesn't help. I watched a video on "How to be a good tank on EQ2" and the guy said that a good tank is constantly pulling mobs right before you kill the first ones, so there is absolutely 0 downtime.
Maybe it was the downtime that allowed people to chat?
That is a very good question, but very hard to answer.
Guild wars was built around not needing a community. I quit before the first expansion but it looked like it was one of the most solo heavy games out there. There were NPCs to choose from instead of having to talk and organize a group with people for the PvE aspect and the PvP battles gave no real reward besides for your guild. You could also just hop right in to random PuG battles on a lvl 20 character you made a few minutes earlier. All those from what I could tell were huge disadvantages to the community aspect but great for the hardcore pvpers.