imo the 1 thing that is absolutely killing "persistant worlds" is levelling.
players are very tired of levelling up. mmo's wont change until this does.
theres nothing wron with collectinggear and spells and skills and such, but does it have to be in the extremely boring exp format made famous by D&D and Everquest?
I think its completely unnecessary for a mmorpg. Its not like anyone quits games when they max out.
Originally posted by Allhallows see, I agree with the op. Mmo's these days are nothing but kill 10 wolves and congrats, here's your new sword that everyone else has. Games these days are missing key features that make a "massive virtual living world" great. There needs to be more randomly generated items. Lets get rid of the cookie-cutter design. Imagine how much better wow would be if only they added randomly generated loot with randomly generated stats! And the ability to dye your items. We all wouldn't look anf feel the same, would we?
ROG loot sucks. They had it in daoc. Odds are, quest look/epic loot will always be better than random drop loot. Random drop loot is cool for leveling in, but for end game raiding or pvp its teh suck.
Dyes are cool though. I want crafters to have say like, 10 different skins available for the same chest piece of armor. Could be same base stats, just look different, then you could take it to the spell crafter, alchemist, whatever to enchant it with personalized stats. That would be cool.
Anyways to respond to the OP, what you describe is the Everquest model of the MMORPG. This, while inferior to other open ended concepts is easier and more popular to create. Players apparently enjoy having the time they’ve spent playing directly translate into character statistics and with that owning other players who have played less hours. That’s just how the Everquest model is, and WoW’s improved implementation of it has really shows the strengths of this.
Then there are players like me, who have played UO, SWG, and know that there is more to MMORPG than just Everquest’s grind. Add into this equation players like you, who are sick of the Everquest model and want it evolved further – or even replaced by the open model that so few developers have paid attention to.
The games will evolve slowly, and evolution takes time if our own existence is any indication. Age of Conan and Darkfall might have something you’re looking for, although neither have a certain future at this point. After that you creep back into the Everquest model with slight alternations such as Tabula Rasa and Warhammer. Aion even has sparked my interest. You should be comforted that there is change coming to this genre in the future.
MMOs aren’t dying anytime soon, I imagine they aren’t going anywhere and will simply evolve as the player base shifts from one game to the next over the course of several years. Right now WoW is basking in its glory and as new games are released there will be new and improved features that drain away its popularity. Eventually a game with these feature sets will replace it, and we’ll hopefully (and likely) distance ourselves from the original Everquest model.
So with anything in life, all you need is patience and to decide what you’re going to do in the meantime. You can find me in WoW for now.
First of all font size whiners i was using small under size selection with tahoma font but anyways,
What i meant about having an uber piece of gear that was a extremely rare drop item that would give me some sort of advantage vs an opponent without. I didn't say freaking god mode *laughs*.. One guy got it right.. There is nothing new coming out now or in the foreseeable future. The basic concept of MMO's is played out . I played WOW for nearly 2 years and being a PVP type such as i am it's PVP was nearly as bad as capture the flag guild wars style PVP. Heck i was playing that style PVP way back when quake and unreal came out. MMO"s added more depth and a grind and earn system that at one time actually meant something. Levels used to be mindlessly boring but not everybody was max level. I'm gonna use DAOC again as an example of tides turning.
When DAOC was released there was no spell crafting, no alchemy and it took some mind numbing effort to achieve 50. At level 50 you were awarded Epic armor. This armor was uber. The goal was to get epic armor. All other items IE jewelry , bracers were ROG drops or quest rewards. Pre-SI or spell crafting it was impossible to have resists maxed for all damage types. You had to pick and choose what was worth more to you. Some were better defensively against one thing and some against others. Casters did high damage but were 1 shot kills many times if they got in melee range. The way it should be for a mage class but, they could murder you nearly as fast if left to do there thing. Again my point is that not everybody was equal. If you were lucky you got a kick butt weapon that NOBODY else had and it helped your class. Now you just have farmers that farm gear non stop and well all advantages are lost from the chance game play which made things fun. Make a long story short a mage can have Physical Defense 5 now in DAOC and thats like a cloth class in mail armor. *throws hands up in the air* as i continue.
Some mentioned Role play. Hey i would be up for that but every role play server i ever got on had no role play. Role play was reserved for guilds or very small grouped players. Would be cool if staying in character was mandatory but we all know thats never going to be a possibility because came companies won't enforce role play rules strictly. *All about money now*..
As a veteran player like many that posted here in truth is that MMO's are reruns.. I figure I'll try WAR when it comes out just to try something but for a veteran player there is nothing new, innovative on the list of games in the foreseeable future to make us say hey what was cool and keep us playing for 3-4 years like the old days.
First let me state that I've played nearly *EVERY* MMO on the market to some extent and though slightly different in flavor just clones of each other. 1. Kill monster, 2. Level from killing NPC or PC. Hit max level. *Pointless*... Sure there are different flavor's of that scenario some harder then other's but virtually the same. Where is the innovation factor of making levels worth something. I don't want a game that everybody can be on equal ground with the other person. I want levels/ranks to actually mean something and are acquired from hard work and not simply killing 1 million NPC. In fact i want the potential to be superior to anybody if i so desire or visa versa but achieving this through other means then just killing like i said NPC over and over and over. I don't want everybody to be able to achieve the same level of armor or weapons. I want ultra rare stuff that very few players in the game have. Not saying i would ever get it but i want the chance alone to be superior to everybody with a piece of armor as an example only. I want tactics and strategy to be more important then sheer numbers taking some of the hack and slash out. Battles or encounters should be non stagnant with no ability to pattern it. What do i mean by that? Intelligent ever changing challenges that are can never be preplanned to defeat like todays high end raids in some games. Game companies have simply moved their games to easy mode. I remember in the day it took 100+ players to defeat a dragon in DAOC but now I've done the same dragon with 16 people. *Easy Mode*.. What does that mean? everybody has access to uber dragon gear and loot. Again another example. So where is MMO gaming going.. Is it going to remain to be EASY mode with zerg fests with everybody maxed out in gear and weapons or is there going to be a company to drop the ball with something totally innovative and new even challenging?I personally think I'm about done with MMO's after 10+ years of them unless somebody drops something earth shattering with fresh, new ,innovative and imaginative game play. Something done by no other company. A game where there is some benefit to character development with a piece of luck factor figured it.
I feel ya man. I dont think it's currently MMOs, i think it us. I too feel it is pointless to grind and level. Even after playing EQ for many years, SWG for many years, and dabbling in almost every MMO, i realize how pointless it is to grind; which sadly equals to how pointless it is to play MMOs.
Right now, there are no MMOs, where you dont have to grind in order to achieve something (WoW quests = grinding btw). For someone like me, who only plays for PvP, makes me wonder why i want to bother playing Age of Conan, when i have to grind 80 PvE levels, and 80 PvP levels, yes PvE and PvP levels are different in Age of Conan.
Thats why the only game im looking forward to is WAR. Why? Because the "grind" isnt a grind for me, it's wtfpwning enemies in full scale PvP with my guildies.
The last MMO to ever have a hook on me was SWG, Pre CU that is. Reason being:
The Profession system - It wasnt perfectly balanced, but was fun. It wasnt a level grind, it was a skill grind. Your final template was usually grounded with different weapons (due to different weapons experience), different crafting and different medical/scouting experience.
The Grind - SWG Pre CU had a grind, but it was a very easy grind. It was just killing lots of mobs over and over, but it was short and easy. You could grind your entire template in about 24 hours. Personally, i changed my template a lot. Changing around professions and such.
In short, what we need is a real Ultima Online 2. We need an IP to have the EXACT same features as UO. Better graphics of course, but the exact same features. We need a MMO with depth, where you can do whatever you want. Not like in most MMOs where your destiny is set, usually as a Dragon Slaying noob.
The more content you add to a game the less immersive it becomes I don't think Warhammer will be as sucessfull as DAOC for this reason. Warhammer is all bells and whistles....The later expansions for DAOC were not very imaginative after Trials of Atlantis. The only game that didn't feel like a Grind with Ultima Online there you just achived Grandmaster without giving too much thought about how many predictable enemies you kill.
Developers are kinda pushed into making elaborate and complicated visuals with the advances of graphic cards and computer tech.
If you ever played EQ2 you will see how choppy the game is compared to DAOC if you played Dark and Light you will see what happens when too much gamespace is a bad idea and no thought has been put into the key which is Design.
Ultima Online 2-D is still the Best MMORPG to date because it was 50 years ahead of it's time without even knowing it.
Just like other great games before it..Pac man..Tetris..ping pong..they made many more "next gen" versions of these games but does anyone still play them? I think not..
So you see through a geometric theory which I cannot think of from the top of my head..it is quite safe to say that mmo's will be the suck given 10-20 years id say ;p
Not by a long shot. Online gaming (which is different from MMORPG's) is the fastest growing segment of PC gaming.
Now, MMORPG's are going to change over the next 5 years IMHO. The traditional, monthly fee, fantasy grinder will more then likely become an endangered species, which is fine. The future of MMOs is going in a direction "traditionalist" are not going to like.
Well ta tell ya the truth I dont really much care one way or the other. I am getting to tired of the same thing OK i am getting to Old as well and grumpy among other things. BUT if someone asks if i said that .. well i dont know ya (chuckles).
Probably is, no ones offering real way's in which mechanics can be designed to create what you want. You want that special sword...but then so does everyone else of on the server. And why would a company create something which only one person out of 10,000 actually gets? It's incredibly hard break away from the time=advancement rule, yet still keeping the barriers to content and still keeping people playing 20 hours a week. At the end of the day, what is skill? Is it twich, in which case, why bother getting equipment if it doesn't mean anything? Is it knowledge, which can be looked up on the internet with walkthroughs and strategies downloaded? Is it time? in which case, there is no skill, just experience. The OP says that he wants 'hard work'. Well what exactly is that? Every game company says that they have the AI, and if that was the Holy Grail, then why don't companies make it? Well the answer is it's either too hard to code (probably true), or the majority of players actually want grind (possibly true). I understand what the OP says about raids. That once you have the gear, and figure out the strategy, then thats the battle done. However consider the alternative. You make it too hard, and guilds will just fall apart, and people will leave the game. You want every player to have a sense of progression. It's a fine balancing act.
ya so true I was discussing a game design with a friend and telling him I didnt want to put in timesinks. and its just so funny he was like, "wtf r you talking bout who is gonna pay for the server? why would they keep playing if we dont dangle loot and levels?"
lol, I keep thinking we wont see a big leap for MMOs unless someone thinks up a new payment model.
anyway I like progression and the grind in single playeer RPG. I am still shocked how all MMORPG do is take that progression and just make it last 300+ hrs. its amazing how much we all love to play games together and socialize / kill each other
MMORPGs are still in their infancy. We've finally reached the mainstream phase of development, with WoW, and all the latest WoW clones. After that comes the niche market, but we're still filling out the mainstream market at the moment.
Unfortunately, all the MMORPG vets want the niche market, and it isn't quite here yet, but it will come.
Anyways, I still think Warhammer is gonna be fun. IMO, the mainstream games can still be fun, but usually only half way to level cap. After that, it's just to long to grind for a +1, and nothing really new.
Comments
imo the 1 thing that is absolutely killing "persistant worlds" is levelling.
players are very tired of levelling up. mmo's wont change until this does.
theres nothing wron with collectinggear and spells and skills and such, but does it have to be in the extremely boring exp format made famous by D&D and Everquest?
I think its completely unnecessary for a mmorpg. Its not like anyone quits games when they max out.
ROG loot sucks. They had it in daoc. Odds are, quest look/epic loot will always be better than random drop loot. Random drop loot is cool for leveling in, but for end game raiding or pvp its teh suck.
Dyes are cool though. I want crafters to have say like, 10 different skins available for the same chest piece of armor. Could be same base stats, just look different, then you could take it to the spell crafter, alchemist, whatever to enchant it with personalized stats. That would be cool.
D.
MMO's are only dead to the delusional, jaded, and burned out people on this message board.
Mmorpg is still growing and will keep growing its hardly dead it may be that how the mmo/mmorpg games looks will change but thats about it.
-Semper ubi sub ubi!
always wear underwear
I find the topic here very misleading.
Anyways to respond to the OP, what you describe is the Everquest model of the MMORPG. This, while inferior to other open ended concepts is easier and more popular to create. Players apparently enjoy having the time they’ve spent playing directly translate into character statistics and with that owning other players who have played less hours. That’s just how the Everquest model is, and WoW’s improved implementation of it has really shows the strengths of this.
Then there are players like me, who have played UO, SWG, and know that there is more to MMORPG than just Everquest’s grind. Add into this equation players like you, who are sick of the Everquest model and want it evolved further – or even replaced by the open model that so few developers have paid attention to.
The games will evolve slowly, and evolution takes time if our own existence is any indication. Age of Conan and Darkfall might have something you’re looking for, although neither have a certain future at this point. After that you creep back into the Everquest model with slight alternations such as Tabula Rasa and Warhammer. Aion even has sparked my interest. You should be comforted that there is change coming to this genre in the future.
MMOs aren’t dying anytime soon, I imagine they aren’t going anywhere and will simply evolve as the player base shifts from one game to the next over the course of several years. Right now WoW is basking in its glory and as new games are released there will be new and improved features that drain away its popularity. Eventually a game with these feature sets will replace it, and we’ll hopefully (and likely) distance ourselves from the original Everquest model.
So with anything in life, all you need is patience and to decide what you’re going to do in the meantime. You can find me in WoW for now.
First of all font size whiners i was using small under size selection with tahoma font but anyways,
What i meant about having an uber piece of gear that was a extremely rare drop item that would give me some sort of advantage vs an opponent without. I didn't say freaking god mode *laughs*.. One guy got it right.. There is nothing new coming out now or in the foreseeable future. The basic concept of MMO's is played out . I played WOW for nearly 2 years and being a PVP type such as i am it's PVP was nearly as bad as capture the flag guild wars style PVP. Heck i was playing that style PVP way back when quake and unreal came out. MMO"s added more depth and a grind and earn system that at one time actually meant something. Levels used to be mindlessly boring but not everybody was max level. I'm gonna use DAOC again as an example of tides turning.
When DAOC was released there was no spell crafting, no alchemy and it took some mind numbing effort to achieve 50. At level 50 you were awarded Epic armor. This armor was uber. The goal was to get epic armor. All other items IE jewelry , bracers were ROG drops or quest rewards. Pre-SI or spell crafting it was impossible to have resists maxed for all damage types. You had to pick and choose what was worth more to you. Some were better defensively against one thing and some against others. Casters did high damage but were 1 shot kills many times if they got in melee range. The way it should be for a mage class but, they could murder you nearly as fast if left to do there thing. Again my point is that not everybody was equal. If you were lucky you got a kick butt weapon that NOBODY else had and it helped your class. Now you just have farmers that farm gear non stop and well all advantages are lost from the chance game play which made things fun. Make a long story short a mage can have Physical Defense 5 now in DAOC and thats like a cloth class in mail armor. *throws hands up in the air* as i continue.
Some mentioned Role play. Hey i would be up for that but every role play server i ever got on had no role play. Role play was reserved for guilds or very small grouped players. Would be cool if staying in character was mandatory but we all know thats never going to be a possibility because came companies won't enforce role play rules strictly. *All about money now*..
As a veteran player like many that posted here in truth is that MMO's are reruns.. I figure I'll try WAR when it comes out just to try something but for a veteran player there is nothing new, innovative on the list of games in the foreseeable future to make us say hey what was cool and keep us playing for 3-4 years like the old days.
I feel ya man. I dont think it's currently MMOs, i think it us. I too feel it is pointless to grind and level. Even after playing EQ for many years, SWG for many years, and dabbling in almost every MMO, i realize how pointless it is to grind; which sadly equals to how pointless it is to play MMOs.
Right now, there are no MMOs, where you dont have to grind in order to achieve something (WoW quests = grinding btw). For someone like me, who only plays for PvP, makes me wonder why i want to bother playing Age of Conan, when i have to grind 80 PvE levels, and 80 PvP levels, yes PvE and PvP levels are different in Age of Conan.
Thats why the only game im looking forward to is WAR. Why? Because the "grind" isnt a grind for me, it's wtfpwning enemies in full scale PvP with my guildies.
The last MMO to ever have a hook on me was SWG, Pre CU that is. Reason being:
The Profession system - It wasnt perfectly balanced, but was fun. It wasnt a level grind, it was a skill grind. Your final template was usually grounded with different weapons (due to different weapons experience), different crafting and different medical/scouting experience.
The Grind - SWG Pre CU had a grind, but it was a very easy grind. It was just killing lots of mobs over and over, but it was short and easy. You could grind your entire template in about 24 hours. Personally, i changed my template a lot. Changing around professions and such.
In short, what we need is a real Ultima Online 2. We need an IP to have the EXACT same features as UO. Better graphics of course, but the exact same features. We need a MMO with depth, where you can do whatever you want. Not like in most MMOs where your destiny is set, usually as a Dragon Slaying noob.
The more content you add to a game the less immersive it becomes I don't think Warhammer will be as sucessfull as DAOC for this reason. Warhammer is all bells and whistles....The later expansions for DAOC were not very imaginative after Trials of Atlantis. The only game that didn't feel like a Grind with Ultima Online there you just achived Grandmaster without giving too much thought about how many predictable enemies you kill.
Developers are kinda pushed into making elaborate and complicated visuals with the advances of graphic cards and computer tech.
If you ever played EQ2 you will see how choppy the game is compared to DAOC if you played Dark and Light you will see what happens when too much gamespace is a bad idea and no thought has been put into the key which is Design.
Ultima Online 2-D is still the Best MMORPG to date because it was 50 years ahead of it's time without even knowing it.
MMO's are indeed a dieing breed
Just like other great games before it..Pac man..Tetris..ping pong..they made many more "next gen" versions of these games but does anyone still play them? I think not..
So you see through a geometric theory which I cannot think of from the top of my head..it is quite safe to say that mmo's will be the suck given 10-20 years id say ;p
Not by a long shot. Online gaming (which is different from MMORPG's) is the fastest growing segment of PC gaming.
Now, MMORPG's are going to change over the next 5 years IMHO. The traditional, monthly fee, fantasy grinder will more then likely become an endangered species, which is fine. The future of MMOs is going in a direction "traditionalist" are not going to like.
Well ta tell ya the truth I dont really much care one way or the other. I am getting to tired of the same thing OK i am getting to Old as well and grumpy among other things. BUT if someone asks if i said that .. well i dont know ya (chuckles).
Have fun i did for many years.
hey everyone try this:
go to www.metacritic.com
look up PC/console games like Bioshock, gears Of War, Elder Scrolls Oblivion
now lookup MMO games. highest rated MMO I found was World of Warcraft 93
PC/Console games regularly hit close to perfect scores left & right
yeah this is not good. all ive been preordering is games like Halo 3, maybe Time Shift, MAss Effect. MMOs are gonna get buried.
ya so true I was discussing a game design with a friend and telling him I didnt want to put in timesinks. and its just so funny he was like, "wtf r you talking bout who is gonna pay for the server? why would they keep playing if we dont dangle loot and levels?"
lol, I keep thinking we wont see a big leap for MMOs unless someone thinks up a new payment model.
anyway I like progression and the grind in single playeer RPG. I am still shocked how all MMORPG do is take that progression and just make it last 300+ hrs. its amazing how much we all love to play games together and socialize / kill each other
MMORPGs are still in their infancy. We've finally reached the mainstream phase of development, with WoW, and all the latest WoW clones. After that comes the niche market, but we're still filling out the mainstream market at the moment.
Unfortunately, all the MMORPG vets want the niche market, and it isn't quite here yet, but it will come.
Anyways, I still think Warhammer is gonna be fun. IMO, the mainstream games can still be fun, but usually only half way to level cap. After that, it's just to long to grind for a +1, and nothing really new.
MMORPG Maker