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NOW i get it (clerics)
badgerbadger
Member Posts: 148
You see; the Gf & I have been trial-ing new games to see if anything grabs us...
The current one is WoW. As she went STRAIGHT to the Undead female warrior (dont ask) I figured a cleric was in order...
and now i understand.
The whole time I played DDO i simply could NOT get why new players from "other" mmo's couldn't grasp that the cleric class is NOT a pushover...
until i played the warcraft priest.
Now i get all the 'healbots'. and now i get why those players think a heal is the answer to everything - the heal spells vs monster DPS basically made me wonder if the WoW monsters are fighting with paper-mache weapons.
..one of my favorite times from DDO was when our barbarian several times in tangleroot would charge in alone and then ask why the cleric couldnt heal him/her fast enough to keep him from dieing.
His response: " i can't heal stupidity "
all jokes aside; so many of the STUPID party wipes i saw make sense now - and the really; really bad tactics - becasue most of it would have worked in WoW.
Comments
Running off into a mob by yourself without waiting for the group isn't bad tactics, it's just stupid. If you're RPing that way, fine, but even then keep it to a minimum.
Aside from the poor tactics, DDO lacks what all the other MMO's preach: the Holy Trinity of Tank/DPS/Healer.
In DDO clerics, even bards, can handle themselves. I just grouped with someone the other day who was ranting about people who make battle-clerics. "If they're going to make a cleric, they should just heal. Stand in the back and heal us."
People are so ingrained with the "in the box" gameplay they see everywhere else that they're unable to climb out of the box.
That is why I don't play with the general DDO public. I only play with guildies and we all play by perma-death rules. None of us think of our Cleric as a healbot. We all actually prefer the Cleric, if we have one, to buff us and use crowd control abilities. If we are well buffed and they use crowd control abilities, there isn't much need for healing. Especially since we all play with tactics.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I LOVE DDO and all it's differences from most other MMO's in today's market. For example, I just recently made a Wizard/Rogue/Ranger, which can buff up, AoE damage spell, range well with a bow, and find/disable traps... I usually play with my guild, but when I feel like seeing new faces every once in a while, I'll PUG... I must say, most healing based clerics in DDO can do just fine in their damage/CC part of them. I also play a ranger, who is greatly self sufficient. Even when grouping with guildies, we rarely have a full group... Most of the time not even a cleric, because we all play with great tactics, and all can cover for ourselves and others without a sweat. DDO is an amazing game and if you hate the ol' "Get me my snake skins and moose horns for my Snoose Stew!!!" then its the game for you
DDO > WoW hands down
If it's a valid tactic -- one that works -- why is it stupid? The OP's point is that this tactic works in WoW, so people learn it there then try it in DDO, where the results are not desirable. The actions can be perplexing to experienced DDO players who haven't played WoW.
This is so true. Haha I can't remember last time I grouped with a cleric no matter what build they made. I just don't see alot of clerics at my level.
But yeah if you have good tactics you can do pretty well in this game without to much trouble.
You do need a cleric right for some of the stuff on VONs right to unlock something? I never finished the end with the dragon our group broke up before finishing.
.. .... .- - . - .-. --- .-.. .-.. ... .-- .... --- .-. . .--. --- .-. - .-.-.-
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
If it's a valid tactic -- one that works -- why is it stupid? The OP's point is that this tactic works in WoW, so people learn it there then try it in DDO, where the results are not desirable. The actions can be perplexing to experienced DDO players who haven't played WoW.
It can work in WoW - because generally the Ai is a little lackadaisical and the aggro is easier for a "tank" to hold aggro - and because the heal versus damage is COMPLETELY different (lol boy howdy do i mean THAT) so a healer can actually heal faster than weapons and claws can tear through fleshin fact when people talk about WoW being accessible; what they really mean is ANY tactics work in WoW...
but the MUCH funnier response is:
"LEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOYYYYY
JEEEENNNNKINSSSSSS!"
For Vons 1-4 you do really need a cleric, but in von3, it helps a hell of a lot... On the other hand von5-6 you most certainly need a cleric for.
Not trying to flame you, but you're comment is a little off here. It's not really about DDO clerics being "outside the box" or different from the norm. D&D is the grandfather of MMO's and in D&D the cleric has always been a plate wearing, mace wielding warrior/healer. EQ1 started the whole healing vs mob dps tactic, and WoW took things a step farther away by making the healer a robe wearing healer/caster.
Edit: My memory may be slightly off here and the cleric in D&D may have been limited to mail or splint armor, but you get my point.
hey taliderian...
i think his (talyn's) post was right on - so was yours.
D&D clerics are DEFINITELY out of the box to the "new" standards - I mean i expect far more people have played warcraft than D&D these days - i strongly suspect most video game "RPG" players don't have any idea where these ideas come from. And isuspect their different experiences are why their expectations of "how a cleric should be played" is so different.
I just hadn't realized where the idea of clerics as sissy healbots came from until now; was the real point of the original post - AND how much more effective healing is in that genre of games.
tactically; I ind monsters don't DO as much damage if they don't LIVE to do it (so i dont need to heal it)- and they live a LOT less long - and thus attack less- if THEY run to our group of six; than if one of my melee-ers runs to THEM single-handedly - this is my nod to all the posts about tactics obviating the need for constant heals.
That metagame was the root of the "Sacred Cow" tactic of Trinity that was so many people's response to my first blog; Boring combat in MMO's
PS:To the best of my recollection; clerics are unrestricted in armor use. In D&D they have always been the 2nd tier of combat classes after the warrior tier.
WoW has numbers, cause it needed no thinking. That simple. In DDO, you actually have to think, at least a little. You can't use all your SP off on one encounter, you need to be wise about it.
BING...we have a winner. Melee mages, Battle bards, Combat Clerics...all reasonable in DDO. Rangers don't have to range, clerics can kill as much as heal, put a couple wounding puncturing picks in the hands of a caster with hold person...all outside the box of traditional MMO classes.
@taliderian: read what I actually said. The *players* are way too "in the box" because most of the games are in that same box. Using WoW as an example, sure it gives you three paths for each class but once you start the raid game you'd better respec to Holy Priest, Protection Warrior, etc. or you've got some work cut out for you finding a group who accepts individuality. Yes, it's work but it's worth it. Been there myself. And yes, compared to all the new stuff, the old D&D cleric is outside that box because yes, they can heal like no one's business, but they can also fight very well, they're not stuck with paper mache armor, etc. It's almost a hybrid class, nearly paladin-esque in some ways, and players from all those other games (WoW's not the only one) can't wrap their heads around that.
Just look at all the DDO players looking for "tanks" in their LFM. You can't "tank" in DDO; the only "tank" skills would be intimidate (diplomacy for the squishies) but it's not the same as your normal "taunt" skill in other games because D&D/DDO aggro doesn't work like those games. But stroll onto the scene as a Fighter with a 1H/Shield combo, and you're in the group because those players are stuck in that same box too.
Not all DDO players are D&D players. I've been very open on forums that I haven't played since 2nd Ed. AD&D so all this d20 stuff, the new rules, etc. - I have no clue nor do I care. I'm having fun, that's all I care about.
@random11: WoW has its numbers because of polish and mostly because of word-of-mouth. Media, Southpark, friends, family, coworkers. That's WoW's best marketing department. Thinking is subjective -- in anyone's first MMO you have to learn, either by examining the situation and reading each of your skills and deciding what to do or you say "that's boring" and just jump into combat or whatever situation and learn from your mistakes the hard way. Hell, my first MMO was SWG so changing to something like WoW/EQ2 was a learning experience for me. Sure, DDO has more tactical combat at times, but I'd also say it depends on the class you play and the situation. Casters, sure, you're SP doesn't regenerate so you have to be more sparing with throwing magic around everywhere. But, as I mentioned in the previous comment, aggro doesn't work the same in DDO, so rather than the "tank and spank" model we see elsewhere, in DDO we have "everyone DPS the shit out of 'em!" which I wouldn't exactly equate to rocket science, either.
BTW, if you ever want to see how hard some MMO'ers want to hang on to the "traditional roles" look at the history of SWG.
They went from incredibly customized characters with very different playstyles within each class to the ultimate in generic/typical class assignments with a complete revamping of the game.
Although I have no experience with SWG; the responses to my first 2 blogs (mmo combat) showed me just how true my use of the term "sacred cow" was. i even got pm's saying there was NO OTHER WAY to have comabt & roles in games.
i think what is most.. ironic to me is that many of the people are so relatively new to gaming that they don't realize that the "tradition" they speak of is neither traditional nor universal. Doesn't work well outside of the mmo's - or the console rpg's which i suspect is their first gaming experience and; again i suspect; the true ancestor of this misbegotten bastard baby of cheesy combat and bad tactics.
I'm a little concerned by the 4th edition proposed changes that classes' roles will be "better defined" - and i certainly never played with a group of uniformly 4 players; much less relaibly the mix of - 1 mage 1 cleric; 1warrior 1 rogue/ranger. Every group has been different and every set of tactics ordered FOR that groups strengths and weaknesses...
adaptability anyone?
anyway; i certainly agree with the comments on tactics posted by others here and about the true level of customization offered by multi-classing.
Which brings me back to the OP: I then in WOW made a paladin.
First off; being - atleast at first; and maybe forever - limited in choices of trainable weapons; and no ability to multiclass; severely limits your ability to NOT pigeonhole the character. This dovetails with what i said about 4th edition - i hope that this "guiding" or "clarifying" roles isn't what they have in mind.
anyway: i found the paladin to be alot more like what i'm used to thinking of as a 'cleric' ( but with the Diablo-paladin aura of course).
Which isn't a "bad" thing- i'm not saying TSR's clerics are any more "right" than anyone elses... and some might recall 2nd-edition products that made each deities cleric in effect a whole seperate class (good idea!)
Actually; the idea of priests as spell-casters primarily gets back to another subject i like which is that in most of the genre fiction; there was never a clear line between wizard and priest magic - until D&D. Magic in most games could use a good from-the-ground up re-thinking; rather than swallowing whole cloth the assumptions of D&D's patchwork traditions; now made "sacred".
What it rather reminds me of is my old game wizard's crown (good to check out if you can stomach the DOS graphics long enough to see how masterfully it handled the mechanics of an "rpg" adventure)-
in which the classes were in effect skill groups - professions - you mixed and matched; much like multiclassing in D&D currently... The only difference was that in WC you had to choose your classes at creation ( so you could improve but not really train a new class) - which could be argued either way (after all; to "apprentice" to be a knight for example is over 12 years... how long for a wizard? for a doctor IRL?)- but i digress(as usual)...
The point I was making was that in WC if you wanted a D&D "cleric" you would need to create a priest/fighter - and i feel thats the level of OPTION that CONTROLS the subject we're talking about-
I didn't really have that option in WoW you see - although my priest is getting some nasty spells; he is fairly vulnerable in hth regardless. My paladin is still so far unable to train in ranged weapons (especially the oddly accuarte; fast-firing and low-damage gun).
The BOTTOM LINE, if you thought i may never get to it, is that the lack of options in my character "defining" his role to a point where I really have very little choice how to play him - (in fact an NPC trainer tells you ; if you don't like being a healbot; make a new character)and as I said at the OP; now SO MUCH of the lack of imagination and flexibility I saw in cleric players; now makes perfect sense.
Even with the cleric having good AC, and sometimes it does help to use it occasionally, to have the cleric consistently in the front line where while the cleric is trying to cast spells and getting whacked to interupt, the entire idea is generally not good tactics. Its better to have the tanks in the front and the cleric in just behind them. Usually in DDO things are somewhat disorganized, everyone running around randomly.
I ran a cleric who specialized in healing, and my first goal was to have people not die. It was frustrating to have people run off in different directions, and people did die, mainly because I think they were either stupid or suicidal. I've got a cleric in my party, I'm invincible, runs off screaming into swarms of mobs....
I remember Everqueset pulling, the camping was huge and people expected you to pull mobs so most of the time you sat around twiddling your fingers waiting on spawn, then pull a few at a time. Bad pulls and swarms could cause and often did group wipes.
Generally think the balance is off in AD&D, one saving throw and if you fail, that is it, your character is perm dead. You been playing this character for 6 months or longer, but you come across one beholder and can easily be disintegrated.
Imagine in higher level campaigns running across Orcus who touches you with his perm death (no save ), staff. More common, have a wizard cast otto's irresistable dance, and then pretty much anything after that is deadly....
If you have a good GM, can make things more reasonable and less deadly, but the problem is that the balance being off its easy to have the GM intentionally or un-intentionally kill off chars.
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
Wait !
wait!
You're saying that in original D&D;
adventuring is dangerous?
You're right that's CLEARLY crazy and unbalanced. The game that's existed for over 30 years should take its model of game balance from MMO's... and moreso; console games. We wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone with a little Death.
Even with the cleric having good AC, and sometimes it does help to use it occasionally, to have the cleric consistently in the front line where while the cleric is trying to cast spells and getting whacked to interupt, the entire idea is generally not good tactics. Its better to have the tanks in the front and the cleric in just behind them. Usually in DDO things are somewhat disorganized, everyone running around randomly.
I ran a cleric who specialized in healing, and my first goal was to have people not die. It was frustrating to have people run off in different directions, and people did die, mainly because I think they were either stupid or suicidal. I've got a cleric in my party, I'm invincible, runs off screaming into swarms of mobs....
I remember Everqueset pulling, the camping was huge and people expected you to pull mobs so most of the time you sat around twiddling your fingers waiting on spawn, then pull a few at a time. Bad pulls and swarms could cause and often did group wipes.
Generally think the balance is off in AD&D, one saving throw and if you fail, that is it, your character is perm dead. You been playing this character for 6 months or longer, but you come across one beholder and can easily be disintegrated.
Imagine in higher level campaigns running across Orcus who touches you with his perm death (no save ), staff. More common, have a wizard cast otto's irresistable dance, and then pretty much anything after that is deadly....
If you have a good GM, can make things more reasonable and less deadly, but the problem is that the balance being off its easy to have the GM intentionally or un-intentionally kill off chars.
Gotta disagree with you about the 1st part about Clerics only getting a few hits in after insuring everyones health is up. I recently created one of the most hated creatures on the planet, a "Battlecleric", and worse a Warforged "Battlecleric". Granted a lot of ,multitasking is involved or people are going to plain hate you.Prevention is worth a pound of cure IMHO if I can stun three mobs out of a group of five with a soundburst and command one more thats four mobs not dealing damage that I don't have to heal. I am not saying to neglect healing, I heal people (they might not all sit there topped off at 100% but they will be all between 75-90%) but don't neglect a clerics other abilities.
Granted there are times when the fecal matter hits that you will have to focus on healing, hey thats part of being a cleric. Course I also created this guy to join an all Warforged caster guild so healing won't be my primary duty, but I am PUGging it now and I get some worried questions when I first roll up. Just let em know I do fight but I do not neglect others buffs or heals.