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Darkfall and MMO companies
ruvoka
Member UncommonPosts: 42
Darkfall as we all know proposes a lot (see this video 
), but has very little to actually show for. NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this. So, what is the problem with MMO companies not trying to emulate what DFO has proposed? Instead of trying to create something like Darkfall promises which so many people are salivating for DESPITE the fact we all know that it is more than likely just a dream, they continually cram these generic MMO's down our throat (WoW, WAR, AoC). I find it hard to believe companies with substantial funds have not tried to buy the license for Darkfall or follow in its path. MMO's are beginning to get stale in general, and long time players are starting to get jaded and want more. Unfortunately, game developers and companies are selling MMO's out to the lowest common denominator, simple players who don't demand more than a single player game with little more depth and community than Diablo 2. For the love of god would some company with larger budgets (Mythic, SoE, Cryptic, Blizzard) take a chance and create something like this, instead of create artificial grinds through expansion "content"!
Comments
I wouldn't kill to play a deadend PvP MMO where superguilds rule the whole server and the rest are stuck standing there.
Anybody who remembers Shadowbane should easily see the future for DFO. Same concept, slightly different combat model.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I played SB and yes the super guilds did have an edge for a bit. a month or so into though, the smaller guilds forged alliances and destroyed the uber guild (Ebonlore) and wiped it from the map. I guess these types of MMO's aren't for the faint of heart, which is why WoW rules the MMO world ... the lowest common denominator...
Darkfall has something called aim/dodge. Shadowbane didnt. When you have aim/dodge then that little things puts you in the realm of FPS. this weeked me and my bud was playing Crimson Skies. we're rusty- first time we played in years!
we got pwned. we sucked. not one kill
but we had this guy on our team. single manned won the WHOLE match. this is an xbox game- so no aimbots.
jsut raw player skill. Small teams win all the time in FPS
unfortunately MMOs use all these dice rolls so player skill is tossed out the window and all that counts is ZERG! Integrate player skill, bottlenecks, dodging, and watch. Small teams will take victory. I see this daily in FPS games. Daily.
The term ZERG never came from FPS land.
I'd love to play Darkfall. The reason the big companies won't stray from the WOW formula is because it's risky. They'll only do what has been proven to bring in money. And blizzard made it loud and clear how popular their game has been, therefore, everyone wants to copy their success. It's no different then the movie industry.
If Darkfall is a huge success, you can be sure the big companies will jump on the band wagon to produce more games like it. That or until people just stop playing any games resembling WOW. Of course Warhammer, although it looks to be way better then WOW, will continue the trend since they both look so similar.
People say they would play a game like darkfall. But how many will just quit in disgust claiming it didn't play the way they thought it would? In the end, people (most people =p) like the tried and true style of mmos. Change a few things here and there, add some new fun fuetures and you have a good game. Make a new kind of a game, and you run a chance people won't find it as fun as they claimed they would.
Currently there is little incentive for companies to go way out of ordinary with their games. Only companies who try to do so are small companies that no one would care about if they tried to release a "normal" mmo. So they use their only chance to succeed which is to make a very unusual/niche oriented mmo. (the donwside is of course they have little money and ither run out and close before release, or just become vaporware like df)
I have to admit im pretty impressed by what i saw in that trailer link you had up there... ive heard of people talking about darkfall forawhile now and havent really researched much into... that is the first thing ive acctually forced myself to look into it and it looks promicing... i think im going to read up on it more now, sounds like a modernized version of UO , and that is what ive been looking for.,.. Down with Levels Long live Skill based
I agree, I am all for skill based both skill points/percentage and actual player skill (twitch). This Level mold that has been created just forces people to do what they all complain about....GRIND!
i like skill based more than lvl based because there wont be the need for grind
but if happens like happened in UO and people find a way to let the character training alone while the player is AFK with a program or by another way??
and if this players spread the idea to others?
new players will have to do the same to stand a chance against these guys making the game more afk than about the player skill
IF PUSHED KILLING IS AS EASY AS BREATHING
The great thing about UO was that skill mattered but not enough to make someone with 50 skill completely helpless against another with 80. As a matter of fact my first red (Player Killer) character had 75 archery and I still did quite well against anti-pk guilds. Would I have done better with 100 skill..sure. Did it matter that much... not really. Thats the beauty of skill based in my eyes. In a level based MMO, if I was level 75 and another player was 100 I wouldnt even be able to hit him due to a level based to hit code, a skill based system bypasses that. Unfortunately I do not find myself in the main stream as far as MMO's go, so I will not be happy until there is a game with full loot, land and buildings that can be taken or destroyed and skill based advancement. I know there is Sb and I did play that but I am looking for something more current and alive.
Wow I feel kinda sad, my account is almost 4 years old and I only have 13 posts...
okay on topic. Well I think we all know the reasons at this point. I dont think I could post anything no one already knows.
I think Richard Bartle summed it up best in "MMOs are Designed by Newbies"
skill based development - well developers cant always anticipate the sick combinations players will develop. give us enough freedom we will skip the powers you made suck, grab all the good stuff, then pwn.
So then Developers said, "Lets restrict their development to Classes. This way we can easily balance their progression".
Even though skill based progression is obviously a strong contender for games that lhave Crafting. Why do so many players point to hgames that are skill based as having good crafting? Skill based is one good reason
Housing - in old UO players were building houses all over the place.
So the developers said, "Lets not give them housing." And so it was done.
Players owning Land - See housing
Player Looting - players were getting stripped butt naked in UO sometimes as soon as they walked out of town. Rather then learn not to wear expensive stuff out of town they complained. Now- I understand some players are not PVPers. Sure.
However, Developers heard the cries from their newbies across the land. Player Looting cut. Even though it would be good thing for PVP-areas its still cut. Even though a newbie probably has no business wearing expensive crap to PVP-enabled areas, cut. Now i can understand how bad it sucks to get ganked during a raid and seeing the PVPers teleport wit your items. I do. But come on- now there is not even a PVP enabled area for risk/reward period.
Travel - many casual players just dont have time to walk for 30 minutes across the land. So teleportation was granted. Ah, but now if looting is enabled PVPers can gank ya, take all your stuff, then teleport out. Rather then disallow teleportation when you got stolen items much easier to cut looting. Cut
Durability Penalty - Even designers against looting and against all penalties admit no durability penalty leads to player equipment inflation (or deflation im no economic wizard sry). Crafting is such a joke in most mainstream titles. Because I get to keep my armor *forever*. See games where we have high turnover. Crafters are always busy. Durability hits makes sense
Zergs - This is a nasty one. Its the side effect of not integrating player skill, penalties, long distance travel, guerilla warfare, and bottlenecks. Zergs is a term derived from starcraft. That is where I ahve first seen Zergs. And its still here in MMO land full force.
I think after tabula rasa and lotro fail miserably, more developers will try to be more creative.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
When I first read about Darkfall, I was as excited about it as anyone and really looking forward to playing it. It had proposed some things that really sounded fun. That was in 2005. When I started looking into the game, I learned that it had been in development since 2002. Well now it's 2007 and we're no closer (or not much closer at least) to the release of Darkfall than we were in 2005.
At this point I'm not sure the game will be able to live up to the hype and anticipation that gamers have for it. There's so much disappointment in other online worlds that people are looking to DF to be the savior of MMOs. That's a tall order. I mean if the game ever actually gets released, it's going to have to be absolutely amazing to be what everyone is hoping it will be.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still pulling for the game. But to be honest, my expectations of it have been greatly diminished.
QFT. This is the answer the OP is looking at.
They will make these kind of games we have today as long as they are making enough profits. Innovation will come when they have no other choice because it's expensive and risky, or from smaller companies but then the game won't be as polished as a AAA game.
If you're in any doubt as to why, read Gordan Walton's (Bioware) piece from the recent Game Developer's Conference (GDC).
Mass appeal = design for the lowest common denominator, and so much the better if you can recruit new MMO players that have no idea what's already been done and who are not jaded, like the rest of us.
I agree though, I hope there is a Darkfall soon (or a Trials of Ascension), for the rest of us.
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
He said "many" not "most" which is true. There are a lot of people waiting for a game like this even if it is the minority when looking at the whole community. The great majority of the community has been poisoned by the WoW experience(It was their first MMO) so they really just don't know what a great game like Darkfall has to offer. The majority of WoW players which make up at least half of the overall community would never play another MMO anyways. They aren't playing an MMO, they are playing MMW(Massively Multiplayer Warcraft). They are Blizzard fans and NOT MMO fans.Bren
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"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
IF PUSHED KILLING IS AS EASY AS BREATHING
There are not MANY, A lot, or any other term that portrays a large number of people waiting for a game like Darkfall. There is a small (very small compared to the gamer population as a whole) that is interested in this type of game.
The problem with these types of games are they aren't really about skill. People that want a fair skill based PvP game will play FPS games like Counterstrike.
MMO games will not work with this type of design. Because inherently someone is always going to be more powerful. Unless they make items worthless all together and then what is the point of dropping items? I mean who cares if I drop my sword if it was worthless to begin with? But if they make my sword a good weapon and important to the point that I wouldn't want to lose it, well then it creates a problem. Because eventually the gankers are going to have better equipment then the people they are ganking and no matter how skilled the ganked people are they will lose.
Asheron's Call Darktide server was very similiar to this. You could dodge spells and arrows. Skill was involved to the point that a level 50ish could kill a level 80+ , but in that game equipment wasn't very important. You could kill just as well with one weapon as another and they were easily replaced.
In the end most of the players who say they want a skill based mmo with full loot pvp are the people that couldn't cut it in FPS games and so they want the ability to kill people in a game where they are less likely to die. (because in a FPS even if you don't play a lot you can be pretty good, but in a MMO the amount of time you play makes you better then anyone else.)
And finally to answer the OP. A darkfall type game is destined to be small change. 50K subscribers maybe up to 90K range, but definitely a sub 100K subscriber game. There would be no reason to dump the type of money to make a big budget MMO into a game design that is a Niche of a Niche market.
War Beta Tester
Because this sentence:"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
Bren
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Bren
No where near the same type of game as Darkfall. Lineage 1 or 2 was a grinding asian game with reprecussions to deter from rampant ganking. It is also a game that pretty much failed in the Western market. AT least compared to it's success in the East.
War Beta Tester
Tell that to the Millions of players that have played Lineage and Lineage 2 over the years.Bren
No where near the same type of game as Darkfall. Lineage 1 or 2 was a grinding asian game with reprecussions to deter from rampant ganking. It is also a game that pretty much failed in the Western market. AT least compared to it's success in the East.
No not that different in this respect at least. Darkfall uses an alignment system that is very similar to L2's Karma system to keep ganking in check. Do your homework.As for Darkfall not being a grinding game that remains to be seen. Grinding skills can be just as tedious as grinding levels if not done right. Also Darkfall promises to be a very political game as was L2. The clan level politics will be there as well as sieging for territory. Also they are both PvP centric games where PvP will shape the game world. There are many more comparisons but those are the main ones so I'll leave it at that. I think you'll find a lot of ex-L2 players moving to Darkfall as they are more similar then you seem to think they are.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
as soon as you grouped aoc as a generic mmo along with wow and war I knew you know nothing. darkfall online is way more generic plus vapourware.
My blog:
Bren
No where near the same type of game as Darkfall. Lineage 1 or 2 was a grinding asian game with reprecussions to deter from rampant ganking. It is also a game that pretty much failed in the Western market. AT least compared to it's success in the East.
No not that different in this respect at least. Darkfall uses an alignment system that is very similar to L2's Karma system to keep ganking in check. Do your homework.As for Darkfall not being a grinding game that remains to be seen. Grinding skills can be just as tedious as grinding levels if not done right. Also Darkfall promises to be a very political game as was L2. The clan level politics will be there as well as sieging for territory. Also they are both PvP centric games where PvP will shape the game world. There are many more comparisons but those are the main ones so I'll leave it at that. I think you'll find a lot of ex-L2 players moving to Darkfall as they are more similar then you seem to think they are.
Bren
I forget the exact numbers that were released about L2. But it was around 1-2million total players and less then 200K were western gamers. So as I said relatively it was a failure in the West compared to in the East.
Secondly Darkfall is Vaporware. It will never get released. Someone recently posted an archived page from MMORPG from around 5+ years ago and guess what? Darkfall was listed on there. 10 Years from now Darkfall will probably still be listed under development.
War Beta Tester
It has yet to be proven that a PVP oriented game like DF can be a big, commercial success, unlike games who've followed the EQ/WOW mold.
Once DF or some other PVP focused game hits the big time...then you'll see more companies pouring resources into them...
but first...someone needs to create a PVP focused game that doesn't suck.... been a while since that has happened.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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