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To those who say TR is shallow:
Talyn
Member UncommonPosts: 587
in Tabula Rasa
I've had my beta slot for a month, but the same day I received it my gaming rig took a crap. Replacement parts have finally arrived and I'll have it running again this weekend so I can get my own hands-on experience with TR.
But here's my question -- I keep reading "it lacks depth" or "it's too shallow" with no explanation. When we speak of a person having depth, we speak of his intellect, how interesting, how well-rounded he is. But when it comes to games, "depth" seems to mean something different to everyone. If you'd care to elaborate with enough explanation to make me understand your perspectives, I'd appreciate it.
Comments
To play 2 days is better than 1000132434324532532543252525 words more or less (+ - 1 word)
People that is disappointed with the game have played the beta (just a little portion of the players that don't like the game are blaming it from the opinions of people that have played the beta, not listen to this few guys, they don't know what are they saying).
And the people that likes the game is in the opposite situation. Just a few portion of them have played the beta and actually they like it. And the others are common players without the opportunity to play the beta.
PS I hate the game because i played the beta + they announced it was gold too quickly + the NDA was lifted and a lot of people that played the beta has the same opinnion as me.
I've posted on this before; I see two different things: variety, and depth.
Variety means lots of different powers, lots of environments, many ways to accomplish the same thing. For example, City of Heroes has also been called shallow, but it has a lot of variety. In CoH, there are 5 classes, each having 8 primaries and 8 secondaries (or so). You can do the same thing (kill the enemy) in hundreds of different ways. In addition, each of these powers can be "slotted" or augmented, making thousands of choices. In CoH, you can shoot, burn, invoke weather, control their minds, blind them, etc, etc. All for the goal of killing the mobs. Replay is good because you can use a lot of various ways to accomplish your goals.
Depth to me means gameplay. Choices you make during the play affect the gameplay. For example, in Ryzom, I went for a range shooter. That means I need to get ammo, so I trained in ammo crafting. Ammo needs raw materials, so I also trained in digging for those materials. My "role" in the RPG is based on those needs; it would be completely different for someone who decided to not use range, but went with melee damage, or magic damage. They would train totally different things, and play quite a bit differently. Another example would be ethical choices: where making a choice closes off some paths, and opens others. This makes for replay value by playing different roles.
TR fails on both things. There are maybe a dozen different classes to choose, not hundreds. Everyone will be doing the same thing, with the same weapons, and look the same. Very little variety. The game is shallow also because there is only one thing to do: kill the Bane. Everyone is playing the same role. Choices made do not dramatically change the way the game plays, or your goals.
Take Morrowind: you build up a reputation with factions. Get too close to one faction, and you cannot do quests from the other factions. The kinds of things you fight and the places you go are affected by what you did in the past. I never saw anything like that in TR. TR is more like an action/arcade game with some minimal RPG elements and very little MMO feel to it.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Thats all you need to know, the game sucks. Period.
(im not a hater, I had VERY high hopes for Tabula Rasa - but after playing 3 months in closed beta, I just said WTF)
Played almost everything...
Currently playing nothing...
Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.
Thats all you need to know, the game sucks. Period.
(im not a hater, I had VERY high hopes for Tabula Rasa - but after playing 3 months in closed beta, I just said WTF)
Actually, the game does not suck, I never said that. It is very solid, plays well, and never crashed on me. I don't like shooters, so I didn't get into the game. For those who love shooters, the game could be a lot of fun. Shallow, not much variety, but fast paced and action oriented.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Thats all you need to know, the game sucks. Period.
(im not a hater, I had VERY high hopes for Tabula Rasa - but after playing 3 months in closed beta, I just said WTF)
Actually, the game does not suck, I never said that. It is very solid, plays well, and never crashed on me. I don't like shooters, so I didn't get into the game. For those who love shooters, the game could be a lot of fun. Shallow, not much variety, but fast paced and action oriented.
People who like shooters are better off buying Quake Wars or Team Fortress 2 instead of paying 15 bucks a month for what was supposed to be an "upgrade" of that type of gameplay via the MMO system, but which unfortunately seems not to be anything like that.
I just got my pre-order yesterday and i haven't been able to play a single game whats up with that.
there are 2 questions
1) Is TR as a game shallow - No
2) Is TR shallow the way it is marketed as MMO by Mr Garriot - Hell Yes
( with lot of bugs , server lags , shallow storyline , lack of content in classes , i beta tested the whole game without really grouping with anybody , instance servers were always down etc )
I did enjoy the game a little but please dont classify it as a MMO
And not worth the $15 monthly subscription
The way the game was buggy atleast 6 months to 1 year more work was needed on the game but instead they are releasing it within a month..
A huge RIP OFF
It's shallow because there is only one thing you can do.. run around shooting bane.
Crafting isn't working now, and when it is it'll be fairly weak and pointless.
PVP options are ridiculously limited.
Character development is weak both in appearance and level advancement.
Grouping is pointless, as everything is mindlessly easy.
The game is basically a 3rd person shooter with very few RPG elements.
I was really hoping this game would be the successor to classic SWG. After playing it quite a bit though it is more like the successor to NGE SWG. The game IS shallow and fails to provide any immersion whatsoever. The HUD and aiming system are erratic and poorly constructed. In the end I suppose the biggest disappointment is the lack of fun and individuality.
I have more fun playing Warhawk on my PS3 than I ever had with TR
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
I felt the game was extremely shallow in a variety of ways:
1. Gameplay within each class is shallow. Each class itself is very shallow. If I am a Sapper or a Commando is very little difference between myself and any other Sapper/Commando out there. There isn't very difference. To elaborate further, if you are an elementalist caster in guild wars you can kill guys with fire, lightning, ice, or earth magic... it's pretty different each segment of the caster (similar to the CoH analogy someone used earlier in this thread).
You also can't really experiment with your character and their features becuz they won't let you respec. A huge part of MMORPGs is exploring your character, their attributes and skills, not just the environment/quests. People r just gonna lamely optimize to the perfect attribute, cookie cutter spec and not really explore things like tools or more unusual capabilities. No respec=less ability to explore/have fun.
All these capabilities are lacking in TR.
2. Playing experience between classes is Shallow too. A symptom of each class being shallow is that they all play nearly the same for the most part. This goes beyond what you can do with 1 class itself. When you swap out from a Sapper to a Biotech or Ranger, Commando etc... it's nearly all the same. Point, Click, Shoot, Loot. This kind of problem kills replayability. Who wants to replay the same content if the experience is nearly the same? It blows.
3. Players all look similar. Appearance, etc. lacks a lot of customizable features. This issue I don't care so much about, but a lot of the roleplayer types seem upset and I see their point.
4. Logos. The implementation of the Logos is very shallow. Such a unique concept is barely even scratched in terms of its capabilities. Not nearly enough tests in terms of unlocking doors, solving puzzles... it's a stupid system that serves almost no purpose in this game. It could have provided so much more in terms of bridging the story between the AFS and Foreans, solving problems between the two, etc. Could have done a quest to solve a Logos puzzle, which enables you to call for Forean back-up support in a big AFS fight. How basic is that?? seems pretty obvious to me to script that into this game.
Starr Long/Richard Garriott got zero brains apparently.
Thanks everyone who's contributed so far. I think prophets wrote the most relevant out of the bunch so far and at the risk of derailing the thread, I'd like to ask specifically how he (and everyone else) would have preferred to see the classes handled if they're so similar? Would you have gone back to the Trinity gameplay that RG was specifically trying to avoid? Or keep with RG's basic vision but make the classes more diverse and unique (keeping in mind again, I won't get a hands-on until Sunday at the earliest), and if I understand olepi's post, have to "work" for everything rather than *poof* I'm [whatever class] now I can run out and *boom boom* shoot Bane?
Based on what I've seen, I'm not so sure dumping the 'holy trinity' was the smart move. Even still, you could have had more distinct classes and created some AI AFS Bots (aka Henchman/Allies) to fill out a small party and designed all the content for small attack squads of 3-5. I don't think that's too demanding; it's a far cry from the 30-40 man raid nonsense. I mentioned it on beta forums and the solo guys thought I was crazy/insane. It worked well in Guild Wars (8 player squads) and it would have worked even better in TR (only need 3-5). You could grab Bot allies and go quickly on your way or let 1 friend jump in and take 1 bot, etc.
I would have made a high dps character, a buffer, and a de-buffer/healer char. healing isn't so important in TR, so I don't think you need a "true" holy trinity design tanker/dps/healer. The individual classes are missing such simple and fundamental skills, even today. The biotech should be able to put "poison tips" on people's ammo so that a little damage over time comes from the buckshot of a soldier. I also would have made a character that didn't use a gun. There is an ability to use hand to hand combat and a staff later. But basically every character is just shooting guns no matter what class you are. I would have made a character that was more focused around preparing grenades or some kind of combo attack where you cryogenically freeze a foe, then smash them with a hammer... i dunno. Some kind of process that prevents you from immediately running and gunning, takes about a 2-5 second pause to help you prepare for the next group of monsters maybe. Some kind of 2 stage attack that makes it feel like you are doing more. Instead it's just click-shoot, click-shoot, enemy dies then loot -- same experience no matter what class.
Logos should have been drastically expanded. Even finding the logos for something like Friendship or Love should unlock an emote so that you can do a fancy love/friendship emote (draw a heart w/ a light saber or something, i dunno). That kind of thing promotes player interaction, keeps the roleplaying fanbois happy, and makes Logos more worthwhile. Each logos should unlock something and be useful, instead it's like MAYBE 1 in 10 are worth it and they are some stupid thing you are running after for what is no real reason.
There also needs to be a fundamental change in how this game is designed to handle better interactivity. For example, you could display what mission a guy is currently on by holding your cursor over them (allow player to reveal that, make it 'public'), display what clan tag they have (holding cursor over them), and improve visibility of your human allies (they are hard as hell to distinguish from anyone else, other npcs). The UI needs to support better player interactivity, it's really basic and crap. Obviously the XP booster should have been shared too, instead it basically benefits the guy furthest in front killing shit nonstop the most. He's running at 6x while everyone else isn't.
Games great.
LIMITED playtest sessions may increase the time it takes for someone to figure out the game is extremely shallow and highly repetitive.
Its hard to know if its shallow from a few days at low level. However, nothing jumped at me as great. The character design seemed rather bland. The lore was a departure for sure, since sci-fi is lacking in the MMO genere. But overall it just seemed like generic Sci-fi.
The biggest thing I was looking forward to was the battle system and it didn't feel anything like I was expecting. I tried hiding behind objects and walls and was still getng hit. Sorry, but the game is too close to release for something that major to not be functioning properly. SHooting didn't really require aiming, since you could auto-lock to anything and its not like you had any depth to the way you shoot. PSO is the closest game to having this kind of feel and that had more depth than this, with its combos and strong and weak attacks.
TR just felt too bland. The aliens constantly landing is really just a creative way of spawning MOBS to gain EXP from. Its fits the lore, but I'm not paying $15 for that.
Here is how I felt the game was shallow: Great ideas, bad or incomplete implementations. Nothing within the game seems fully flushed-out or completely polished. Let me provide some examples to support these comments of mine.
1.) Lore. The background story is the typical aliens vs human, with the backdrop of humanity on the edge of extinction. Sounds cool! How could you screw this up? Well, you can by simply not pulling the player into the storyline. Your character doesn't feel unique, doesn't feel special or gifted, doesn't feel significant, and doesn't play a critical role in whether or not the human race is wiped out. There are TONS of side stories but just not enough emphasis on the core story and how it truly relates and affects your character (and visa-versa). The control points were supposed to instill this feeling of importance but they are pretty obvious that, without player interaction, the bane as just a bunch of zerglings that just throw themselves at the NPC-controlled human troops. Insert a player or two and you pretty much have a case where the bane will never amount to any serious threat to any control point.
2.) Character creation. The creation process for characters is just SO bland, so unoriginal, and so disappointing that you actually played games with more customizations and options half a decade ago. You *almost* think you are going to at least look unique by changing the color of your fresh new character's armor...then within the first half hour of play you have completely lost that uniqueness by picking up new armor pieces. Even much later in the game, post level 20 and beyond, everyone STILL looks the same.
3.) Progression. They really had a cool concept here where everyone starts off the same then branches out into different tracks or tiers. However, the implementation is just a complete failure in my eyes. You really don't feel any different at level 20 than you did at level 15. There really isn't a sense of accomplishment or power increase as you level. Stats feel almost completely meaningless (and for the most part they are: do you want +mana, +health, or +regen - That's your options). Class abilities are so similar and boring that each tier really only has 1-2 "cool" or "must-have" abilities in them; or you are just regulated to using the same ones you obtained as a recruit. Combining crafting, class abilities, and Logos powers all into one all-encompassing ability system was just a VERY bad implementation, in my own opinion. You are forced to choose what you want your character to be: a crafter, a soldier, or a specialist.
4.) Content. The idea of having multiple planets, and a wormhole travel system, etc was just so very cool. But then we came to implementation. WOW. First off, there is essentially one track for players to go through, for the majority of the game; meaning: Everyone will go through the same zones at roughly the same levels, and through the same progress. Then you begin to play through the zones and you cannot help but feel, "I've been here before...as an elf or dwarf, or ogre..." Honestly, there is very little originality here when it comes to environments. A forest is a forest is a forest and it feels like any game's forest - except you are holding a gun instead of a sword, an axe, or your hands glowing from fireballs. The environment just seems so bland. OK, so there are a few birds flying, bugs, etc but the ground just felt so desolate (everywhere you went). Sure there is a bane invasion going on, etc but it just didn't feel like it. Why weren't there HUGE bane ships in the sky, blocking out the sun? dozens of drop-ships of bane attacking a control point? Ambush parties that actually use some AI instead of run directly at their way-points? "Invasion"? Hardly. More like bane suicide missions.
5.) Crafting. Absolutely not a lot to say here. Truthfully, they are completely redoing the craptastic system they had within the game with some new "better" system, weeks before live release. I could not imagine anyone getting something so very wrong, as the old crafting system was. It was a clear sign, to me, that the creative development force behind this game just had absolutely ZERO clue what "fun" was supposed to be in an MMO; least of which we don't even want to touch into "innovation" or "revolutionary" here...
All-in-all, I cannot help but to use the term "shallow" or "bland" for every major characteristic that describes the game. Slap a premium $15/month price-tag for this title and I honestly have to question the sanity of the management team within NCSoft.
character creation cant be any worse then wow. plus end game in wow every1 looks the same it becomes easy to pick out what class and spec some1 is in DS3 then in teir its even more obvious expect for spec. and as for styro immersion in wow iw asnt pulled in. blizz dumped the story in wow itw as better in WC 1 2 3. now thier just pullinh stuff from the warcraft games instead of a new story thing.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
/signed for the fact that
1. It is a good game
2. Is worth the 50 bucks layout..
3. Is not worth 15 bucks a month...PERIOD!
Also, I think this game would be PERFECT on the Xbox 360...as I played with my 360 controller, and after logging in, I was able to remap my controller (Using Pinnacle Profiler Software), and I never need to touch my keyboard again...except to chat...but the chat system also sucks in this game...
So, make this title Xbox live compatible, add the Xbox live voice chat system...rework the controller settings, and you would have a killer title for the 360...i.e: the first good MMO for the 360..
Thoughts?
no game is worth 15 bucks a month. unless you are ina good raid guild and have time to waste all you do at 70 in wow is pvp and dailys and the same instances over and over again nonthing new. and still once youve done BT you just start the doing it again over and over again untill WotLK. lvl to 80 then repeat. swg its ok but they should drop it maby 5 bucks. Lorto i never got working on my compbut i was paying 10 till i cancled. those are the only two i have reached end game with and after the long and boreing grind to max lvl really neither offers much.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
15 bucks worth of value is in the eye of the beholder actually..
Take into account how much fun your having, then work out how many hours per month you play = VALUE!
My example ... my current game of fun...
EQ2 = Purchase price = 40 bucks
Hours played in the first month = 159 hrs
159 hrs divided by 30 days = 5.3 hrs per day
Total cost per day roughly 26 cents....
Sorry, but 26c to entertain myself each day is TOTALLY worth it. Then my next month will be 15 bucks? So, my entertainment will cost me about 9c a day....roughly...
Now, a movie last about 2 hours, and costs about the same after snacks, etc...2 hours VS 159...you decide..
Sorry...but, you gotta know what is fun to you, and figure it out. If your not having fun...why pay it? And it deals with more than wasting time...it is ENTERTAINMENT...your analogy sounds like work...and that is not worth me paying someone to work..I want to be entertained..
I have enjoyed EQ2, that the value is good to me...LOTRO for example was not...so I stopped paying...WoW was good for one year of ENTERTAINMENT...so was WORTH 15 bucks...
Each persons idea of value is different...why I disagree with you...and yes, 15 bucks can be worth it...Tabula Rasa was not...sorry.
Cheers!
Had a couple friends get into beta and leveled a character with them, it still was bland to me, so I stopped playing beta. Game just isn't for me I guess.