Does anyone have an idea of how "twitch" AOC will be?

BattleFelon

From reading "hands on" reports on IGN and Gamespot, the AOC combat system seems similar to early Elder Scrolls (choose which way to slash/able to block blows) - in which case I'm very interested. That being said, it also seems like the combo system could be "Mortal Combat" style, in which case I'm far less interested. Also, will ranged combat feel almost like a first person shooter?

If anyone's played demos at Leipzig or other game shows, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm looking for something different than WOW-style combat, but not a FPS or console fight game with an RPG ruleset attached.

AmazingAvery

 

Originally posted by BattleFelon


From reading "hands on" reports on IGN and Gamespot, the AOC combat system seems similar to early Elder Scrolls (choose which way to slash/able to block blows) - in which case I'm very interested. That being said, it also seems like the combo system could be "Mortal Combat" style, in which case I'm far less interested. Also, will ranged combat feel almost like a first person shooter?
If anyone's played demos at Leipzig or other game shows, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm looking for something different than WOW-style combat, but not a FPS or console fight game with an RPG ruleset attached.

I guess it depends on what class you are interested in playing. The melee combat system has been touted in the combo style of "Streetfighter" for example a few times. For Melee the mapped (fully customizable keys) are Q,1,2,3,E  with Q and E outside>In swings 1 and 3 been closer in with 2 as direct in front. Using a selection if the keys in a set sequence will perform a combo, combos can be chained together like say "killer instinct game" and also they increase the chance of pulling off a "fatality" move. So you learn combos as you progress.

 

Best thing to do if your interested in Melee class (or in general) is to watch this: http://stage6.divx.com/user/santafr0g/video/1605370/Dragon*Con-Age-of-Conan-Presentation

presentation from Dragon*Con with the new working U.I. Explains about linking attacks together and how you start off with only 3 directional attacks.

Range combat has two types of attack, "sniper mode" where you zoom in and the regular style which most mmorpg'ers are used to. The inclusion is of "Sniper Mode"  is a different take on range in mmorpg's where there isn't an auto lock on the character you have to manually steer and the U.I lets you know if your on target.

It's not an extreme twitch style as the best attacks require you not to mash your buttons or bunny hop around, also combos are useless if done by your G15 keyboard :P or some macroed program. Its more about linking your combo's together in finding the best forms / types for what or whom you are fighting. Like in the Skill bar in Guild Wars. Except in AoC your active combos can be selected from a list at any time and not like guild wars where when you leave an outpost your confined to using what you have equipped.

siresper

Avery forgot (choose not to mention?) that there is absolutely no player based blocking whatsoever. I bring it up because its one of your main points in your original post.

Blocking is determined the old way, based on a percent chance of occuring, and is not the result of a deliberate player choice. So it isn't at all like Oblivion, or even street fighter I would say, because if I recall street fighter had blocking (guarding). In Conan either you hit the enemy or you don't, and the blocking is determined by a random roll of the dice.

You can choose the direction that you swing, but its really a rehashed version of existing combat systems, mapped to different keys, and sped up to be more in line with real time. For example, if WoW had 5 abilities in your quickbar, swing left, swing right, swing up, swing down, etc. and mapped them to the letter keys on the keyboard, it would be a lot like that. And certain enemies are susceptible to certain directions, much like enemies in other games are susceptible to certain skills (usually element based, like fire, water, light, etc.)

So the only real difference between conans combat and the other games is the sped up time for using your moves. But if you like those other systems than it shoudn't be that hard to adjust to conan, you just need to be quicker. Unfortunately for a lot of people that have tested the game at events for the first time, this equates to button mashing.

 

BattleFelon

Good to know about blocking - I must have either misread that in the IGN preview or the writer must have gotten it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time a preview was wrong about basic game mechanics. It does sound though like there will be some countermoves available. I'm curious to know how the Xbox 360 controls will perform and whether or not PC players will have a huge advantage (or vice versa).

AmazingAvery

  

Originally posted by siresper


Avery forgot (choose not to mention?) that there is absolutely no player based blocking whatsoever. I bring it up because its one of your main points in your original post.
Blocking is determined the old way, based on a percent chance of occuring, and is not the result of a deliberate player choice. So it isn't at all like Oblivion, or even street fighter I would say, because if I recall street fighter had blocking (guarding). In Conan either you hit the enemy or you don't, and the blocking is determined by a random roll of the dice.
You can choose the direction that you swing, but its really a rehashed version of existing combat systems, mapped to different keys, and sped up to be more in line with real time. For example, if WoW had 5 abilities in your quickbar, swing left, swing right, swing up, swing down, etc. and mapped them to the letter keys on the keyboard, it would be a lot like that. And certain enemies are susceptible to certain directions, much like enemies in other games are susceptible to certain skills (usually element based, like fire, water, light, etc.)
So the only real difference between conans combat and the other games is the sped up time for using your moves. But if you like those other systems than it shoudn't be that hard to adjust to conan, you just need to be quicker. Unfortunately for a lot of people that have tested the game at events for the first time, this equates to button mashing.
 

 

Actually I read and tried to answer in such a rush I didn't see the "blocking" word... But nice to know you read every word.

Thats right its kinda rehashed but in a different and new way. So here are a few recent quotes to help you guys out. There are directional attacks and they are meaningfull in PvP and PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athelan If your evasive move takes you out of range then you have manually dodged a blow, however if you dont get far enough out of range or your opponent adapts to your leap to the side you still gain some benefit defensively from doing that instead of attacking. Dodging, Blocking, Parrying is automatic based on stat rolls in the combat system, evasive maneuvers or "manual dodge" are movement based aids not block buttons, its quite different between the two.

 

 

Aug 24th, 2007, 07:54:43

#27

Jayde vbmenu_register("postmenu_925745", true); Developer     Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway

Quote: Originally Posted by tkis Then please do so Jayde, i would really love some facts, things got so fuzzy and cryptic lately: 1: will it be possible to run the game using the old combat system, not remapping hotkeys to resemble it ? 2: will it be possible to change your mind mid-combo and pick a different one (e.g. instead of q123 do q121) without loosing any combo progress ? 3: what is the actual meaning of directional attacks by now ? is the combat solely based on combos, so trying to do directional attacks outside of a combo string is as pointless as autoattacking without using special powers in current MMORPGS ? Currently in the demos and such, #1 and #2 are disabled as combo "protection" however, as far as I know, there has always been the intention to allow one to do things fully manually if they wanted to. Although, I would note that the example of #2 never really happened in the old system, simply because there isn't that much overlap between the sequences. Even when you had 8 combos equipped, the chance of having a 3rd or 4th level overlap with 5 directions available is exceptionally small. Another thing I would note is that by not using openers, you pretty much lose the ability to get instant effects from openers. This was a point where the old system was severely lacking--sometimes you need to do something right away, instead of waiting for the entire combo to play out. However, from a pure gameplay experience standpoint, I can't say that playing with openers feels any different at all to me. It's just another thing to consider when I'm attacking a target. It's not as if in the old system that one randomly button-mashed directions after playing a while--you set out with a purpose, to either attack a certain direction or do a certain combo. As for the meaning of directional attacks, they are lower damage than combos and combos are still the emphasis--however, you do have to perform 3-4 directional attacks -while- doing a combo, so they see heavy use anyhow. There are still directional weaknesses, directional blocking tokens/evasion, and the shielding system to consider...so directions still play an important part in how combat works. Players are still stamina-limited in regard to combos, though, so one may have to rely on directional attacks if they fail to have enough stamina available to perform combos. Mashing directional attacks was never optimal, however. Combos have always been the key part of the combat system, so I don't really feel anything has really changed in that regard. __________________ System Designer Balance Team Lead

 

 

and lastly:

 

LordOrion vbmenu_register("postmenu_708432", true); Product Manager Funcom     Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Norway

The combo slots are not buttons, they are indicators of combos your character can use. You can remove them and add others, but you can't click on them. You will still have to perform the combo move using the correct swings/thrusts of your weapon. As for blocking, we're very clear on the fact that one hundred percent real-time blocking is not possible to do with present day technology in a game of this scale, and that we've found what we believe to be a good compromise between real-time and more "behind the scenes" caluclations. That being said, we've not revealed everything there is to know about blocking/dodging in Age of Conan yet. While you will not actually put up your shield to avoid a blow in real-time, there will be other ways for you to protect yourself from attacks by manually making choices while in combat. This includes having to choose yourself what parts of your body to protect more than others. __________________

 

Sound different to you? Does to me! seems exciting and a pretty cool concept.

You see in a WoW kinda way your auto target your opponent and can spam / mash the skills, in AoC you have directional targeting, where by you have the choice to aim for different parts of the opponents body, in a system that incorperates combination effects. Its system is dis-similar to WoW and other commonly used combat systems in up coming games. Its more skillfull to manually aim your mage attack rather than keep your finger pressed down in an auto target system. AoC assists the player in some cases by having "tab" as a soft target lock, but it isn't full. It also has collision dection ex. with formations, such mounted formations which is unseen before in an mmorpg.

 

Originally posted by BattleFelon


Good to know about blocking - I must have either misread that in the IGN preview or the writer must have gotten it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time a preview was wrong about basic game mechanics. It does sound though like there will be some countermoves available. I'm curious to know how the Xbox 360 controls will perform and whether or not PC players will have a huge advantage (or vice versa).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athelan This is correct. You do not actively block but you have access to both actively altering your defenses, and defensive maneuvers that augment or assist you in combat defensively. The directional attacks do matter, because defenses themselves are not uniform and may be weaker in some areas in comparison to others. This is in addition to the defensive preparations you can make actively to more effectively guard an area. Perhaps I am fighting a Barbarian and I know some of his most damaging combo's tend to attack from the right side so I shift more of my defenses there, it is then possible the Barbarian I am fighting notices the increased number of times I have blocked him and so shifts his attacks to using a lethal combo not targeting that area that results in my taking extra possibly fatal damage. While it might not be possible to accomplish active blocking in an MMO due to latency, it does not mean we have not put a lot of effort into the defensive aspects of making combat both strategic and tactical. Our goal for all combat not just PvP, is to continue to have combat achieve a balance of action and reaction as to the most eluded too "dance" of blades.

 

At alot of the conventions this year players and dev's have used a gamepad, to show how easy it would work taking an in depth PC control to the console. Alot of the Dev's have said they prefer the keyboard for ease of use but also state they don't think there is too much of a difference between mouse and gamepad, although personally, in a non auto attack environment I can see the mouse and keyboard being better. If it was made for the XBoX 360 first and then the PC then you would see some difference maybe, however, and thank god, the 360 version is an after thought from the PC version.

Hope this goes someway to explaining what its like along with the video posted above, Siresper kinda doesn't realise (maybe doesn't want to) that AoC's combat in inherently different for an mmorpg, doesn't offer you the same tired and common system and layout, and more importantly tries to be unique in its approach to deliever you a decent experience. If it is sped up already then you wont need to speed up your approach as timing isn't neccessarily to be and end all.

As for convention reviews from people who have played, the last one was from the French Games Festival still on the front page here or at the official forums, makes a good read If your interested in doing some "blocking" research for yourself this is a good place" http://bymitra.com/search/13577

siresper

Oh, in my haste I forgot to post about three very important things, which are common misconceptions and are often taken advantage of by people trying to falsely hype the combat system (gotta pump those sub numbers up yes, even if it means sacrificing honesty) 

- Hitting your target is not actually based on weapon contact with the player, but based on two very simple equations you probably learned in high school. One is the equation for distance between two points. And the other is the equation for calculating the angle between a line representing the direction you are facing and a line representing the direction of the enemy. This is why you often see sloppy cases of people swinging weapons in the vids and making contact, but no damage being done. Or swinging weapons and not making contact, but damage being done. The graphics for the weaponry do not coincide exactly with the equations being evaluated, and so you get those cases of ghost damage. Lag problems with the application also affect this.

- So far we haven't seen any cases to prove that button mashing isn't an effective tactic. While its true that the combat system is probably simpler than mortal combat (due to the compete lack of ability to block intelligently), the comparison to mortal combat holds true in the sense that many people can succeed well by button mashing in those games (and similar ones like soul calibre, dead or alive, etc.). We have heard a lot of people claiming it isn't going to be button mashing, but we havent actually seen it yet, and everyone that has played it at events so far has resorted to button mashing.

- It is very possible that the combat system as it is currently developed by Funcom will be severely handicapped with more than a few people on screen. As you know the graphics level is higher than the current standard of mmorpg, and this can translate into problems when dealing with combat that requires aiming (albeit simplistic directional aiming) and timing. Funcom also has a long proud history of having lag issues and taking a long time to resolve them. In a regular mmorpg, it is certainly a bad thing to have lag in combat however auto aiming in large part protects the player from both their own lag and the lag of other players they are fighting.

My advice to the OP is to keep an open mind and make sure you see all sides. Don't be fooled by people that try to paint a rosey picture of everything. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from an excellent movie.

"Life is pain, highness. Anyone that says differently is selling something."

AmazingAvery

Originally posted by siresper


Oh, in my haste I forgot to post about three very important things, which are common misconceptions and are often taken advantage of by people trying to falsely hype the combat system (gotta pump those sub numbers up yes, even if it means sacrificing honesty) 
Want to point out where I have been dishonest? or is more of a case that you don't want this game to succeed? because your spew BS out so far they can smell it in Austrialia (see below) The hype for the combat isn't false, its direct from visual media and from players of the game - why does this get up your nose so much? Just becuase this game doesn't have auto attack like your fav game, doesn't mean to say it will be better, but it is a cause for refreshment in taking a different angle on combat and play. So excuse me for basking in that refreshment... If it was the game was falsely hyped then why all the industry awards of late? You one voice speaking from a very deep dark cave Siresper, with your buddy Battlekruse.
- Hitting your target is not actually based on weapon contact with the player, but based on two very simple equations you probably learned in high school. One is the equation for distance between two points. And the other is the equation for calculating the angle between a line representing the direction you are facing and a line representing the direction of the enemy. This is why you often see sloppy cases of people swinging weapons in the vids and making contact, but no damage being done. Or swinging weapons and not making contact, but damage being done. The graphics for the weaponry do not coincide exactly with the equations being evaluated, and so you get those cases of ghost damage. Lag problems with the application also affect this.
Do you know this for a fact? Where with examples are we seeing that this calculation (an attack is not causing damage), the equation might be right - but inpretation with regard to the attack animation is wrong with the calculation. Swinging weapons in melee from what we have seen earlier this year were results from a combination continued to be performed after the enemy was dead, or in a directional from which the enemy had moved. Damage is done if contact happens within the melee weapon swing area, the tightening of those weapons arcs > contact of foe are still being worked upon. Assuming that the concept is flawed based on beta footage is stupid at best, in fact your probably assuming your whole AoC combat sucks thoughts on videos of early builds of the game. Regardless for your obvious distaste and lack of understanding combo animations, throughput, implementation and working, its hard at best to explain the easy concept of it time and time again. In the past people playing the game continue with the combination - after the foe dies with which we see the "carry on" effect.
- So far we haven't seen any cases to prove that button mashing isn't an effective tactic. While its true that the combat system is probably simpler than mortal combat (due to the compete lack of ability to block intelligently), the comparison to mortal combat holds true in the sense that many people can succeed well by button mashing in those games (and similar ones like soul calibre, dead or alive, etc.). We have heard a lot of people claiming it isn't going to be button mashing, but we havent actually seen it yet, and everyone that has played it at events so far has resorted to button mashing.
We have seen reports from the latest 3 conventions from the press and most importantly from players, fans, and just those mildly interested to give it a go - along with over 8gb of video footage of people playing where you can see them controlling the character - at NO POINT have i witnessed a series of button mashing -  footage has been posted for viewing. It has been long said that mashing the buttons doesn't bold well in general play, it offers no tactical advantage and has been proven so too. It's also been proven that "bunny hopping" offers no advantage either as you can't even swing your weapon. There are reports on the official forums to show the feats, combo's and abilities, I've even posted some here, which have all been compiled for "some" classes. The cool down on combo's has the effect that you can't spam buttons, its just no possible to repeat some over and over very fast. The visible combo UI shows this aswell. No offence but it looks like your worried for some reason - are you scared that it looks like it works well? Just watch the videos that Im sure someone with your capabilites can source out quite easily. So there hasn't been ALOT of people complaining about button mashing, if you know something I don't then point it out.... if not BS..
- It is very possible that the combat system as it is currently developed by Funcom will be severely handicapped with more than a few people on screen. As you know the graphics level is higher than the current standard of mmorpg, and this can translate into problems when dealing with combat that requires aiming (albeit simplistic directional aiming) and timing. Funcom also has a long proud history of having lag issues and taking a long time to resolve them. In a regular mmorpg, it is certainly a bad thing to have lag in combat however auto aiming in large part protects the player from both their own lag and the lag of other players they are fighting.
Hey sorry to rain on your rant, but to be honest some people want a system which doesn't a) look like WoW b) doesn't play like WoW. Go figure the graphics are a representation of the rate of technology and the ability of the developers, made by an astute company with experience. Yes the graphics aren't "cartoon" ish, they haven't got you basic Orc with 15 animations and the ability to jump 10 ft. Auto targeting is an old concept, your ability to defend it is cool, but some people look for a different fresh approach. No one is denying the fact that the game looks graphic intensive but with regards to your argument to how that will play out in the real word  in a comparison to a game engine for another game made over 6 years ago when broadband was as available today is simply unfair. To shout out doom, gloom and failure now is about as relevant as you saying Conan was female.
My advice to the OP is to keep an open mind and make sure you see all sides. Don't be fooled by people that try to paint a rosey picture of everything. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from an excellent movie.
OP, Siresper is what we call the ultimate pessimist, a naysayer, and worrywart, but you will only find this persona of his here at the AoC boards. You wont find him putting the same doom and gloom anywhere else. You see I believe when something is looking worthwhile, its often worthy of conversation, when something looks not right that is too. Simple fact is half of what siresper sprouts is unproven, and unfounded. At the end of the day the truth hurts and some people don't like the possiblity of one game playing better than another an example is the fact that I bring information as published/made to this site, which results in hate mail and the odd ban.
"Life is pain, highness. Anyone that says differently is selling something."
Do keep an open mind but look at the potential too, look at the new things the game brings, look at what its trying to be and the direction its taking to achieve that. If from your initial readings your got interested look a bit further and see what you think then. No one is saying the game is perfect, I for one have reservations for international server lag (server side lag) but that doesn't make me feel the need to go and post and dumb down different elements of the game that could be really awesome if done right.

 

FE|Tachyon

Originally posted by siresper


Oh, in my haste I forgot to post about three very important things, which are common misconceptions and are often taken advantage of by people trying to falsely hype the combat system (gotta pump those sub numbers up yes, even if it means sacrificing honesty) 
- Hitting your target is not actually based on weapon contact with the player, but based on two very simple equations you probably learned in high school. One is the equation for distance between two points. And the other is the equation for calculating the angle between a line representing the direction you are facing and a line representing the direction of the enemy. This is why you often see sloppy cases of people swinging weapons in the vids and making contact, but no damage being done. Or swinging weapons and not making contact, but damage being done. The graphics for the weaponry do not coincide exactly with the equations being evaluated, and so you get those cases of ghost damage. Lag problems with the application also affect this.
- So far we haven't seen any cases to prove that button mashing isn't an effective tactic. While its true that the combat system is probably simpler than mortal combat (due to the compete lack of ability to block intelligently), the comparison to mortal combat holds true in the sense that many people can succeed well by button mashing in those games (and similar ones like soul calibre, dead or alive, etc.). We have heard a lot of people claiming it isn't going to be button mashing, but we havent actually seen it yet, and everyone that has played it at events so far has resorted to button mashing.
- It is very possible that the combat system as it is currently developed by Funcom will be severely handicapped with more than a few people on screen. As you know the graphics level is higher than the current standard of mmorpg, and this can translate into problems when dealing with combat that requires aiming (albeit simplistic directional aiming) and timing. Funcom also has a long proud history of having lag issues and taking a long time to resolve them. In a regular mmorpg, it is certainly a bad thing to have lag in combat however auto aiming in large part protects the player from both their own lag and the lag of other players they are fighting.
My advice to the OP is to keep an open mind and make sure you see all sides. Don't be fooled by people that try to paint a rosey picture of everything. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from an excellent movie.
"Life is pain, highness. Anyone that says differently is selling something."

 

Somebody forgot to take out the Garbage.

If I wanted to play Warcraft,    I COULD PLAY WARCRAFT.    I want to play AoC because of what I've seen here in Baltimore, and online sources.   This that is new,  is exciting.    I'm excited  as the day I talked to a guy back in 1996 about a PIN he had on his hat,  with the shape of a U over an O.  I'm as excited as when I started reading about the Ultima Online beta.

Vrazule

I really dislike frantic button mashing.  It's irritating, fatiguing and ends up giving me headaches.  It's the primary reason why I rarely play FPS style games.

kano71

doesn't the game tell you which buttons to press for combo's? if so it seems really pointless mash fest.. why not just have the special moves hotkeyed with a cooldown. seem to me it be a week before all the moves are macro'd anyway.

AmazingAvery

It's been said often macro's in PvP won't be beneficial:

Athelan vbmenu_register("postmenu_513230", true); Developer     Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lost in BCC Land

Because combat is not only about doing combo's sure you could macro the attacks needed to trigger a combo but that isn't hard. by using a macro you lose one of the most powerful things you have in combat and that is flexibility. __________________ Athelan -NPC/Monster Designer, Behavioral Control Center/Combat Guru, Age of Conan

 

People who only do combo starters and aren't able to pull off combos or execute them quickly will do substantially less damage and be much less effective than someone who knows how to use their combos well. People who randomly button mash will use the wrong things at the wrong time, run out of stamina for no particular reason, and generally not be able to finish combos very well. The goal in this is to provide the player with control over what his or her character is doing, rather than trying to force the game-play to be more action oriented through button mashing.

Jayde vbmenu_register("postmenu_337862", true); Developer     Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway

I might also mention that combos are a huge portion of the DPS/damage budget of any melee class... not using them will result in you doing significantly less damage. Even in PvE, killing stuff is significantly more difficult if all I do is mash buttons. Doing so is akin to just sitting there on auto-attack in other MMOs...which is something nobody would really expect to have too much luck with. And, no, you can't just use the same combo over and over--they all have their own specific cooldowns.

MoLoK_

My wild guess is that the "manual dodge" the devs are talking about is little more than jumping out of range of the attacker. Or using a skill that improves your block/dodge/parry for X seconds.