Which goes back to what I said before about it being necessary to the big sub theory to believe that almost all who bought the game stayed with it (or where replaced 1 for 1 as they left) and that they exactly guessed right how many subs they would sell. That is just patently ridiculous and contrary to what every other MMO of large success has done.
EVE is unique, black empty space and all. And while I was kidding come one - you may be insane if you think LotRO is squeezing 30k or 50k people per server.
You aren't following the logic. 30-40K people total per server. That ever play. Not at one time. With 5K being the max that can log in at one time.
Let me break it down again for you.
World of Warcraft 3500 per server max with about 10-12K per server total population
EvE 30K about max on the server with 210Kish the total server population.
So I personally see LOTRO somewhere in the middle of those two. World of Warcraft generally seems to be the lowest for Server caps and total population per server. I think it is due to them having too many servers. They kept listening to the people wanting a new server every few months and now they have a ton of dead servers (relatively speaking of course). I think if they merged up their servers (which they kind of did with the Battlground clusters anyways) the could very well be around 30-40K per server with a max of around 3500-5000 logged in at one time.
You are forgetting that EvE's servers are very different in design to other server structures As EvE's was designed to be the only server ever not one of severall.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
It is amazing that i see people here still posting after many a time i have seen them say that they dont have a problem with the game but yet they can still seem to pop up on every half assed bash on the game seriously people if you dont like the game and are not playing it get a life and move on! I dont know how many times threads like this have no actual facts so there for are not even remotely worth argueing about (spelling check on argueing) so just take a min to think this through will ya if this game does not appeal to you then why does it matter how many subs they have? Is your life that meaningless that you have to continue to troll these threads trying to justify yourselves on your guess work? All i can say is the game is still strong for me and many others and that is all that counts the more people we have playing the less fun the game will be cause all we will have is ass clowns jumping around spoiling it for us the game is successfull in it's own right and if it were not then it would not be being discussed every so often in the threads so please just accept the fact the game is still going strong, it may not have a million subs but that is not what makes a game the best, and is a success maybe not THE most successful but successfull nonetheless.
I've never played LOTRO and I don't really care about it one way or another, but 800k subscribers on 24 servers just doesn't wash.
As mentioned earlier, WoW has 1.5 million subscribers in Europe and they have about 230 servers in Europe. That comes out to about 6.5k people per server.
Even if a LOTRO server holds double the population a WoW server does (13k people x 24 servers), generously that would only be about 325,000 total for LOTRO.
I've never played LOTRO and I don't really care about it one way or another, but 800k subscribers on 24 servers just doesn't wash. As mentioned earlier, WoW has 1.5 million subscribers in Europe and they have about 230 servers in Europe. That comes out to about 6.5k people per server. Even if a LOTRO server holds double the population a WoW server does (13k people x 24 servers), generously that would only be about 325,000 total for LOTRO.
When I wqas playing LOTRO there were about 1500-2000 people on my server, X 24 = 48,000 active at one time best case scenario. Theres no way in heck they have 16x that many truly active players. i agree with your estimation of 300kish
It is amazing that i see people here still posting after many a time i have seen them say that they dont have a problem with the game but yet they can still seem to pop up on every half assed bash on the game seriously people if you dont like the game and are not playing it get a life and move on! I dont know how many times threads like this have no actual facts so there for are not even remotely worth argueing about (spelling check on argueing) so just take a min to think this through will ya if this game does not appeal to you then why does it matter how many subs they have? Is your life that meaningless that you have to continue to troll these threads trying to justify yourselves on your guess work? All i can say is the game is still strong for me and many others and that is all that counts the more people we have playing the less fun the game will be cause all we will have is ass clowns jumping around spoiling it for us the game is successfull in it's own right and if it were not then it would not be being discussed every so often in the threads so please just accept the fact the game is still going strong, it may not have a million subs but that is not what makes a game the best, and is a success maybe not THE most successful but successfull nonetheless.
The ENTER key is your friend, it wont bite you, I promise.
Sorry if you are feeling upset about this discussion regarding LotRO:s active subs.
I have got a tip for you, If you don't like a particular thread then simply ignore it.
Originally posted by Cerion The fact that LOTRO hasn't added any new server clusters is kind of irrelevant.
No, it isn't.
Successful game = More servers added since launch
Not so successful = No additional servers since launch
Do you see the difference?
DDO had crap technology they had to open 14 servers to hold about 100k players, the same goes for WOW servers, they need 220 servers on NA and 240 servers on europe since there is 3.5 mill players on europe and and NA, means each WOW server is holding only about 4k accounts wich is very weak. Jeff Anderson said 4 months ago that LOTRO servers had already more then 10k accounts per server, we can see a big difference here on servers capacity.
LOTRO- may 07--- 247k
LOTRO- jun 07--- 430k
LOTRO- jul 07--- 670k
LOTRO- aug 07--- 800k
this also means the 4 mill chars teory is not the source for that numbers
I highly doubt the numbers are that high. However they have two things that would skew any numbers that might have been thought possible. For one they have the name: Lord of the Rings and Two; they sell lifetime memberships. What ever their current player base you still have to factor in those lifetime memberships.
_________________________________
Currently Playing: Eve-Online On the Backburner: EQ2 Retired: EQ, DAoC, WW2Online RIP: AC2 Tried: Ryzom, Roma Victor, RoM, KH2, Forsaken World, AO, AoC, APB Quit: SWG PRE-CU(Radiant/Starsider), WoW
I don't know if these nummers are acurate or not fact is that Lotro is doing prety well as an mmo, not nearly as good as wow but thats not needed, as seeing this game had the most stable lanch in mmo history , great gfx good story, and a nice gameplay i come to belief that those nummers are prety acurate,whit the fact that it did very well in europe as well. And i also think the players that play lotro are not the one who spend time browsing around this website, also its doing way better then Eq2 as you can see, wich does make sence since Eq2 had many lanch problems compaired to Lotro and that mathers a lot, cuz that way thay missed a lot of player base.
Playing:World of Warcraft. Played:Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies. Tried:Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
I don't know if these nummers are acurate or not fact is that Lotro is doing prety well as an mmo, not nearly as good as wow but thats not needed, as seeing this game had the most stable lanch in mmo history , great gfx good story, and a nice gameplay i come to belief that those nummers are prety acurate,whit the fact that it did very well in europe as well. And i also think the players that play lotro are not the one who spend time browsing around this website, also its doing way better then Eq2 as you can see, wich does make sence since Eq2 had many lanch problems compaired to Lotro and that mathers a lot.
Lets face it everyone. There is not a single game (Other then the Linage series) that has or remotly can challenge World of Warcraft. So lets just stop trying to say that every MMORPG is a clone to WoW.
They are a clone to EQ.
And who's to say that the 9 million that it shows for WoW is right. I'm almost 100% sure they are counting all the Asian subs too. I heard that they are free over there, so why not say you have 9 million? It's a nice number. I bet if other games did that, they would get an amazing responce over in Asian. If all the game was a grindfest like WoW is.
Also Lord of the Rings is doing quite well. If people actually dear to play the trial and get past level 10, they would see that the cities and towns are filled with people. I found the game to be enjoyable, but it's the people who've rushed to level 50 who are saying the game's crap.
MMORPGs aren't really ment to have someone max level in less then a month. If they do that, they should expect the game to suck, because they've missed everything inbetween.
As someone stated before. If you don't like said game or topic, don't reply.
Originally posted by Cerion The fact that LOTRO hasn't added any new server clusters is kind of irrelevant.
No, it isn't.
Successful game = More servers added since launch
Not so successful = No additional servers since launch
Do you see the difference?
DDO had crap technology they had to open 14 servers to hold about 100k players, the same goes for WOW servers, they need 220 servers on NA and 240 servers on europe since there is 3.5 mill players on europe and and NA, means each WOW server is holding only about 4k accounts wich is very weak. Jeff Anderson said 4 months ago that LOTRO servers had already more then 10k accounts per server, we can see a big difference here on servers capacity.
LOTRO- may 07--- 247k
LOTRO- jun 07--- 430k
LOTRO- jul 07--- 670k
LOTRO- aug 07--- 800k
this also means the 4 mill chars teory is not the source for that numbers
LOTRO- may 07--- 35 subs
LOTRO- jun 07--- 25 subs
LOTRO- jul 07--- 19 subs
LOTRO- aug 07--- 2 subs
I can type made up sub numbers too - too bad they mean absolutely nothing, just like yours.
As for the source fort that chart - it is clearly the article some moron wrote shortly after the 4 million character BS. The author of the article, an obvious idot, did some terrible math in coming to that compoetely false number.
"since each LOTRO subscription lets the player create up to five characters, the game has attracted at least 800,000 subscribers in just four months"
First, there is nothing to say that the BS 4 million number doesn't include every character ever made through development and BETA, or that Turbine didn't just script up a couple million to make an impressive BS stat they could tout. The stupid moron in the article also forgets to account for the fact that the 5 character limit is only per server, so one account could make up to what - 50 characters, not including ones he deletes and remakes. The site lists the number as low confidence and clearly it is based on this completely stupid article that has ZERO merit.
Dont know about the states, but in europe there have been new servers added...
Playing:World of Warcraft. Played:Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies. Tried:Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
It's my belief that if they really had a good size player base (500k+ paying subs) they'd be bragging about it in their marketing rather than touting how many characters have been created. Of course, when trying to look good next to WOW's numbers anything under 1M is going to look a bit weak.
I agree. They are trying to paint the best picture possible.
I don't know if these nummers are acurate or not fact is that Lotro is doing prety well as an mmo, not nearly as good as wow but thats not needed, as seeing this game had the most stable lanch in mmo history , great gfx good story, and a nice gameplay i come to belief that those nummers are prety acurate,whit the fact that it did very well in europe as well. And i also think the players that play lotro are not the one who spend time browsing around this website, also its doing way better then Eq2 as you can see, wich does make sence since Eq2 had many lanch problems compaired to Lotro and that mathers a lot.
Lets face it everyone. There is not a single game (Other then the Linage series) that has or remotly can challenge World of Warcraft. So lets just stop trying to say that every MMORPG is a clone to WoW.
They are a clone to EQ.
And who's to say that the 9 million that it shows for WoW is right. I'm almost 100% sure they are counting all the Asian subs too. I heard that they are free over there, so why not say you have 9 million? It's a nice number. I bet if other games did that, they would get an amazing responce over in Asian. If all the game was a grindfest like WoW is.
Also Lord of the Rings is doing quite well. If people actually dear to play the trial and get past level 10, they would see that the cities and towns are filled with people. I found the game to be enjoyable, but it's the people who've rushed to level 50 who are saying the game's crap.
MMORPGs aren't really ment to have someone max level in less then a month. If they do that, they should expect the game to suck, because they've missed everything inbetween.
As someone stated before. If you don't like said game or topic, don't reply.
If the history of computer games started with EQ, that might be true. The there have been computer games as CRPGs since the 70's. All of those games lead to new games: text games, platos various games, wizardry, muds, TSY and NWN, etc. I know when I first saw Wizardry, I thought imagine a whole game world like that. And I was not the only person who talked about it and the future. EQ is give too much credit, as if CRPGs and/or 3d games didn't exist. MMORPGS were a matter of time not a matter of some original thinking.
Okay, to those doomsayer idiots who claim that any MMO is only successful if it adds servers after launch; Keep in mind there was a reason Turbine did the pre-launch open beta. During that period they added, what was it... five to six new servers in the US within a month of launch.
OMG ITZ GUT LEZ SUPSCRYBRZ DEN WOW, IT FAYLZ HARR
in all seriousness, though I agree en mass that that number is off, my best guess would be that the number of active LotRo subs is probably between 300-400k. It's not failing, doing sub-par or otherwise in any danger of having the plug pulled, not even close. Sure it's not the hulk-mmo WoW, but then... who cares? Not every game can be geared toward 14-18 year olds who believe our education should be focused on the states in South Africa and Iraq.
Originally posted by Quingu why should they make the claim? they never did it before with their other games. besides most companies don't do that.
They are making that claim - their entire advertising plan is to tell people to try it because everyone else is. Can you seriously suggest that they would run the ad about '4 million characters created' if they could instead make a legitimate claim as to the subscriber base? As for the other games - that was then this is now. Are you suggesting that companies always do only what they have ever done before? Lastly, if we are to believe the hype and hyperbole from fans and Turbine LotRO is different from their other games because it is the 2nd biggest MMO ever - those other games where not big time mass market products so different policies can apply.
Believe me, forget me believe the reality of how companies work, turbine's policy is NOT that they do not release sub numbers it is that they release only sub numbers that they believe will directly benifit the bottom line of the game. if LotRO had record setting subs (which 800k and the other claims would indicate) then they would be shoting it from every outlet they could as that would be like a big gamer community stamp of approval and a big bandwagon bonus to attracting new players.
PLAY THE LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE™ FOR FREE!
Turbine launches 7-day Free Trial Program for the Hottest MMO of the Year
WESTWOOD, MA -- August 29, 2007 -- Turbine, Inc. has launched the official 7-day free trial of The Lord of the Rings™: Shadows of Angmar™ (LOTRO). Beginning today, fans in North America, Australia and New Zealand can play the best online game for free by visiting http://trial.lotro.com/.
LOTRO has received critical acclaim from around the globe. Since its launch in April, LOTRO has quickly become the second largest MMORPGwith an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home. The game continues to grow with two massive updates that have increased the world by over 20%:
Now tell me Turbine is not selling their game on the claim of its achievement in reaching record numbers of players. We have all seen the ads, the comments, etc. Clearly Turbine is doing the bandwagon thing. So how in the world could they determine that the best way to attract players is by advertising how popular they are but NOT publishing legitimate subscriptions numbers unless the reality is that the subscription numbers are not impressive or otherwise notable? 4 million characters created? Even that is qualified with 'estimated' - hell, they could have had a DVE write a script to create 2 million toons one evening so that is a completely meaningless claim/statistic. Why would they use something so obviously BS is they had the real record numbers to back it up?
Come on man, it is obvious by this alone - add in the server count thing and the other points and clearly Turbine is trying to generate hype with obfuscation and specious claims because the real numbers don't prove out the hype.
Yes because we know that Companies make fake press releases. I guess World Of Warcraft really only has 5 subscribers. /sarcasm off
The fact remains that in that press release the President of Turbine goes on the record saying that LOTRO is the second Largest MMO. That is a statement of fact. They can't make up accounts and then claim to be the second largest. So while we can't know for sure how many people are playing we do know that it is more then any other game except World of Warcraft in the NA/EU marketplace.
So what is number 2 that we know the subscription number for currently and then we know that LOTRO has more then that one. Pretty simple.
Yes because we know that Companies make fake press releases. I guess World Of Warcraft really only has 5 subscribers. /sarcasm off
The fact remains that in that press release the President of Turbine goes on the record saying that LOTRO is the second Largest MMO. That is a statement of fact. They can't make up accounts and then claim to be the second largest. So while we can't know for sure how many people are playing we do know that it is more then any other game except World of Warcraft in the NA/EU marketplace. So what is number 2 that we know the subscription number for currently and then we know that LOTRO has more then that one. Pretty simple.
Like P.T. Barnum said, a sucker is born everyday. Turbine is making these specious claims because they know people will misread it and miss the subtle parsing and repeat and believe the impression of what they said even though the specifics are quite differant. Below is what was said by Turbine's CEO:
Jeff Anderson: It couldn't really be much better. We've had just terrific response from the community, the sales have been great, we've managed the number one position off and on; the response from the editors, the reviewers, it's racking up the rewards, game of the month, editor's choice awards ... it's really gratifying. You know a bunch of people poured their heart and soul into making this product, and so I'm enthusiastic for them that they can finally see the true value of the hard work that they've put in. We're probably now the second-largest MMORPG operating that was built in the US right now, you know, built in North America/Europe.
Hrm, interest - he says probably and then stammers to qualify it by saying the US then saying North America/Europe. Reminds me of bill Clinton's testimony saying "it depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is". Total BS speak. Just like the 4 million character thing is BS - even if it is completely accurate it means nothing - it is just a way to seem to be saying they are oh so popular without having to provide proof or lie - in short, it is what people who are BLUFFING do.
Yes because we know that Companies make fake press releases. I guess World Of Warcraft really only has 5 subscribers. /sarcasm off
The fact remains that in that press release the President of Turbine goes on the record saying that LOTRO is the second Largest MMO. That is a statement of fact. They can't make up accounts and then claim to be the second largest. So while we can't know for sure how many people are playing we do know that it is more then any other game except World of Warcraft in the NA/EU marketplace. So what is number 2 that we know the subscription number for currently and then we know that LOTRO has more then that one. Pretty simple.
Like P.T. Barnum said, a sucker is born everyday. Turbine is making these specious claims because they know people will misread it and miss the subtle parsing and repeat and believe the impression of what they said even though the specifics are quite differant. Below is what was said by Turbine's CEO:
Jeff Anderson: It couldn't really be much better. We've had just terrific response from the community, the sales have been great, we've managed the number one position off and on; the response from the editors, the reviewers, it's racking up the rewards, game of the month, editor's choice awards ... it's really gratifying. You know a bunch of people poured their heart and soul into making this product, and so I'm enthusiastic for them that they can finally see the true value of the hard work that they've put in. We're probably now the second-largest MMORPG operating that was built in the US right now, you know, built in North America/Europe.
Hrm, interest - he says probably and then stammers to qualify it by saying the US then saying North America/Europe. Reminds me of bill Clinton's testimony saying "it depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is". Total BS speak. Just like the 4 million character thing is BS - even if it is completely accurate it means nothing - it is just a way to seem to be saying they are oh so popular without having to provide proof or lie - in short, it is what people who are BLUFFING do.
PLAY THE LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE™ FOR FREE! Turbine launches 7-day Free Trial Program for the Hottest MMO of the Year
WESTWOOD, MA -- August 29, 2007 -- Turbine, Inc. has launched the official 7-day free trial of The Lord of the Rings™: Shadows of Angmar™ (LOTRO). Beginning today, fans in North America, Australia and New Zealand can play the best online game for free by visiting http://trial.lotro.com/.
LOTRO has received critical acclaim from around the globe. Since its launch in April, LOTRO has quickly become the second largest MMORPGwith an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home. The game continues to grow with two massive updates that have increased the world by over 20%:
Is not the same as Probably the second largest. It says in their press release that LOTRO HAS become the second largest MMORPG.
Is not the same as Probably the second largest. It says in their press release that LOTRO HAS become the second largest MMORPG.
Ahh, but see they don't say that at all. They have two qualifiers slighly worked into that statement that you have to parse. let me help you translate:
Since its launch in April, LOTRO has quickly become the second largest MMORPG with an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home
The comment starts with "since its launch" which qualifies the whole statement to say that of MMOs launched since LotRO is has become ...blah, blah, blah. Additionally, and more of a qualification, is the end of the statement where they provide the measurement against which they are making the claim, "an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home" which means little as has been pointed out before because the characters created means nothing for so many obvious reasons.
So, again, this is the marketing speak they use. Qualified statements of vague relevance all intended to make it sound like they are some kind of second coming of WoW. But each statement is clearly not saying what it seems to say, and the lack of just coming out and saying it makes it obvious that they can't say it - so they craft statements to make it seem as if they are trying to capitalize on the fans and publics mis-perception.
For a P2P game 800k would make LOTRO like the 3rd most popular game ever. I have serious doubts that this game is that popular, 300k would be pushing the realm of believability for active subs....
It wouldn't be the 3rd most popular mmorpg every, more like number 6 or 7.
When I said that I guess I meant of the P2P style games in the MMO genre..... WoW, Lineage 1 and 2 are the only P2P games that have gone over 1M subs.
The fact is that having 1M subs in the MMO business makes you pretty successful. 800k is still pretty far fetched in my book.
"Jeff Anderson: It couldn't really be much better. We've had just terrific response from the community, the sales have been great, we've managed the number one position off and on; the response from the editors, the reviewers, it's racking up the rewards, game of the month, editor's choice awards ... it's really gratifying. You know a bunch of people poured their heart and soul into making this product, and so I'm enthusiastic for them that they can finally see the true value of the hard work that they've put in. We're probably now the second-largest MMORPG operating that was built in the US right now, you know, built in North America/Europe."
"...probably now the second-largest MMORPG..." means nothing, Mr. Anderson knows EXACLTY where they are, so why not spit it out? And, then he makes the disclaimer "...built in the US..." Well, just what does that mean? Is Sony considered a Japanese company?
If Sony must be ignored in his statement, then we are talking about a much smaller number than 800k.
As for, 4 million characters, that is completely meaningless also; especially with free trial subscriptions.
The only thing that counts is currently paying customers, not characters created or even total subscriptions ever.
I see back on Jun 7, mmogdata had LOTRO at 430k and on Jul 7, they have it at 670k. It would be good to see these references also.
Oh god, of course they will inflate the numbers in any way possible, probably every name to ever crest their website is counted. Hey I'd do the same, why not, lol.
"Turbine said this week that its Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) game is now the second-most popular massively multiplayer online game, after World of Warcraft, which claims 9 million subscribers. Turbine said that LOTRO subscribers have created 4 million fantasy characters since the game was introduced in April.
Privately held Turbine refuses to reveal the number of actual subscribers, who pay $50 for game software and a monthly subscription fee of around $15. But since each LOTRO subscription lets the player create up to five characters, the game has attracted at least 800,000 subscribers in just four months."
I have to agree with AgtSmith on this one. The quotes are clear and It's easy to see what happened here.
The only thing said by Turbine was that subscribers have created 4 million characters since the game was introduced in April.
The part about the game being the second-most popular leaves out the "...built in the US..." part of the quote and, "attracted at least 800,000 subscribers in just four months," is the author's bad guess, using the 4 million characters statement from Turbine.
What also makes it ambigous is that they don't specifically say "paying" subscribers, like WoW does. So, are they including those that had free trial subscriptions and beta subscriptions?
The problem with "characters," is that anyone can create as many as they want with as many free accounts as the like, and total characters created since release does not represent currently paying subscribers at all; not everyone that ever created a free account and made characters, or even that subscribed at one time and made characters, is still playing, nor paying.
If 4 million characters have been created in total, since release, including all the thousands of free trial subscriptions, then actual currently paying subscribers is much, much less than 800k.
LotRO peaked at about 180k active subs a few months ago and the active subs have now declined a little. This 800k figure is about three times the amount of game boxes sold world wide. It's sad or funny depending on your point of view that mmogdata.com can't check the amount sold of the game and come to the conclusion that it's nowhere near 800k.
That sounds about right. Please give a reference for 180k subs, otherwise it means nothing.
Are you going off box sales?
"The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar sold over 172,000 copies during the quarter, including the special edition of the game." Aug 2, 2007
Comments
Which goes back to what I said before about it being necessary to the big sub theory to believe that almost all who bought the game stayed with it (or where replaced 1 for 1 as they left) and that they exactly guessed right how many subs they would sell. That is just patently ridiculous and contrary to what every other MMO of large success has done.
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Let me break it down again for you.
World of Warcraft 3500 per server max with about 10-12K per server total population
EvE 30K about max on the server with 210Kish the total server population.
So I personally see LOTRO somewhere in the middle of those two. World of Warcraft generally seems to be the lowest for Server caps and total population per server. I think it is due to them having too many servers. They kept listening to the people wanting a new server every few months and now they have a ton of dead servers (relatively speaking of course). I think if they merged up their servers (which they kind of did with the Battlground clusters anyways) the could very well be around 30-40K per server with a max of around 3500-5000 logged in at one time.
You are forgetting that EvE's servers are very different in design to other server structures As EvE's was designed to be the only server ever not one of severall.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
It is amazing that i see people here still posting after many a time i have seen them say that they dont have a problem with the game but yet they can still seem to pop up on every half assed bash on the game seriously people if you dont like the game and are not playing it get a life and move on! I dont know how many times threads like this have no actual facts so there for are not even remotely worth argueing about (spelling check on argueing) so just take a min to think this through will ya if this game does not appeal to you then why does it matter how many subs they have? Is your life that meaningless that you have to continue to troll these threads trying to justify yourselves on your guess work? All i can say is the game is still strong for me and many others and that is all that counts the more people we have playing the less fun the game will be cause all we will have is ass clowns jumping around spoiling it for us the game is successfull in it's own right and if it were not then it would not be being discussed every so often in the threads so please just accept the fact the game is still going strong, it may not have a million subs but that is not what makes a game the best, and is a success maybe not THE most successful but successfull nonetheless.
I've never played LOTRO and I don't really care about it one way or another, but 800k subscribers on 24 servers just doesn't wash.
As mentioned earlier, WoW has 1.5 million subscribers in Europe and they have about 230 servers in Europe. That comes out to about 6.5k people per server.
Even if a LOTRO server holds double the population a WoW server does (13k people x 24 servers), generously that would only be about 325,000 total for LOTRO.
When I wqas playing LOTRO there were about 1500-2000 people on my server, X 24 = 48,000 active at one time best case scenario. Theres no way in heck they have 16x that many truly active players. i agree with your estimation of 300kish
The ENTER key is your friend, it wont bite you, I promise.
Sorry if you are feeling upset about this discussion regarding LotRO:s active subs.
I have got a tip for you, If you don't like a particular thread then simply ignore it.
No, it isn't.
Successful game = More servers added since launch
Not so successful = No additional servers since launch
Do you see the difference?
DDO had crap technology they had to open 14 servers to hold about 100k players, the same goes for WOW servers, they need 220 servers on NA and 240 servers on europe since there is 3.5 mill players on europe and and NA, means each WOW server is holding only about 4k accounts wich is very weak. Jeff Anderson said 4 months ago that LOTRO servers had already more then 10k accounts per server, we can see a big difference here on servers capacity.
LOTRO- may 07--- 247k
LOTRO- jun 07--- 430k
LOTRO- jul 07--- 670k
LOTRO- aug 07--- 800k
this also means the 4 mill chars teory is not the source for that numbers
I highly doubt the numbers are that high. However they have two things that would skew any numbers that might have been thought possible. For one they have the name: Lord of the Rings and Two; they sell lifetime memberships. What ever their current player base you still have to factor in those lifetime memberships.
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I don't know if these nummers are acurate or not fact is that Lotro is doing prety well as an mmo, not nearly as good as wow but thats not needed, as seeing this game had the most stable lanch in mmo history , great gfx good story, and a nice gameplay i come to belief that those nummers are prety acurate,whit the fact that it did very well in europe as well. And i also think the players that play lotro are not the one who spend time browsing around this website, also its doing way better then Eq2 as you can see, wich does make sence since Eq2 had many lanch problems compaired to Lotro and that mathers a lot, cuz that way thay missed a lot of player base.
Playing: World of Warcraft.
Played: Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies.
Tried: Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
Lets face it everyone. There is not a single game (Other then the Linage series) that has or remotly can challenge World of Warcraft. So lets just stop trying to say that every MMORPG is a clone to WoW.
They are a clone to EQ.
And who's to say that the 9 million that it shows for WoW is right. I'm almost 100% sure they are counting all the Asian subs too. I heard that they are free over there, so why not say you have 9 million? It's a nice number. I bet if other games did that, they would get an amazing responce over in Asian. If all the game was a grindfest like WoW is.
Also Lord of the Rings is doing quite well. If people actually dear to play the trial and get past level 10, they would see that the cities and towns are filled with people. I found the game to be enjoyable, but it's the people who've rushed to level 50 who are saying the game's crap.
MMORPGs aren't really ment to have someone max level in less then a month. If they do that, they should expect the game to suck, because they've missed everything inbetween.
As someone stated before. If you don't like said game or topic, don't reply.
No, it isn't.
Successful game = More servers added since launch
Not so successful = No additional servers since launch
Do you see the difference?
DDO had crap technology they had to open 14 servers to hold about 100k players, the same goes for WOW servers, they need 220 servers on NA and 240 servers on europe since there is 3.5 mill players on europe and and NA, means each WOW server is holding only about 4k accounts wich is very weak. Jeff Anderson said 4 months ago that LOTRO servers had already more then 10k accounts per server, we can see a big difference here on servers capacity.
LOTRO- may 07--- 247k
LOTRO- jun 07--- 430k
LOTRO- jul 07--- 670k
LOTRO- aug 07--- 800k
this also means the 4 mill chars teory is not the source for that numbers
LOTRO- may 07--- 35 subs
LOTRO- jun 07--- 25 subs
LOTRO- jul 07--- 19 subs
LOTRO- aug 07--- 2 subs
I can type made up sub numbers too - too bad they mean absolutely nothing, just like yours.
As for the source fort that chart - it is clearly the article some moron wrote shortly after the 4 million character BS. The author of the article, an obvious idot, did some terrible math in coming to that compoetely false number.
"since each LOTRO subscription lets the player create up to five characters, the game has attracted at least 800,000 subscribers in just four months"
First, there is nothing to say that the BS 4 million number doesn't include every character ever made through development and BETA, or that Turbine didn't just script up a couple million to make an impressive BS stat they could tout. The stupid moron in the article also forgets to account for the fact that the 5 character limit is only per server, so one account could make up to what - 50 characters, not including ones he deletes and remakes. The site lists the number as low confidence and clearly it is based on this completely stupid article that has ZERO merit.
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Dont know about the states, but in europe there have been new servers added...
Playing: World of Warcraft.
Played: Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies.
Tried: Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
I agree. They are trying to paint the best picture possible.
People tend to forget that 7 million are FREE ASIAN accounts. You can Google it and look it up.
Blizzard counts every account, even in Cafes, etc.
Lets face it everyone. There is not a single game (Other then the Linage series) that has or remotly can challenge World of Warcraft. So lets just stop trying to say that every MMORPG is a clone to WoW.
They are a clone to EQ.
And who's to say that the 9 million that it shows for WoW is right. I'm almost 100% sure they are counting all the Asian subs too. I heard that they are free over there, so why not say you have 9 million? It's a nice number. I bet if other games did that, they would get an amazing responce over in Asian. If all the game was a grindfest like WoW is.
Also Lord of the Rings is doing quite well. If people actually dear to play the trial and get past level 10, they would see that the cities and towns are filled with people. I found the game to be enjoyable, but it's the people who've rushed to level 50 who are saying the game's crap.
MMORPGs aren't really ment to have someone max level in less then a month. If they do that, they should expect the game to suck, because they've missed everything inbetween.
As someone stated before. If you don't like said game or topic, don't reply.
If the history of computer games started with EQ, that might be true. The there have been computer games as CRPGs since the 70's. All of those games lead to new games: text games, platos various games, wizardry, muds, TSY and NWN, etc. I know when I first saw Wizardry, I thought imagine a whole game world like that. And I was not the only person who talked about it and the future. EQ is give too much credit, as if CRPGs and/or 3d games didn't exist. MMORPGS were a matter of time not a matter of some original thinking.
OMG ITZ GUT LEZ SUPSCRYBRZ DEN WOW, IT FAYLZ HARR
in all seriousness, though I agree en mass that that number is off, my best guess would be that the number of active LotRo subs is probably between 300-400k. It's not failing, doing sub-par or otherwise in any danger of having the plug pulled, not even close. Sure it's not the hulk-mmo WoW, but then... who cares? Not every game can be geared toward 14-18 year olds who believe our education should be focused on the states in South Africa and Iraq.
They are making that claim - their entire advertising plan is to tell people to try it because everyone else is. Can you seriously suggest that they would run the ad about '4 million characters created' if they could instead make a legitimate claim as to the subscriber base? As for the other games - that was then this is now. Are you suggesting that companies always do only what they have ever done before? Lastly, if we are to believe the hype and hyperbole from fans and Turbine LotRO is different from their other games because it is the 2nd biggest MMO ever - those other games where not big time mass market products so different policies can apply.
Believe me, forget me believe the reality of how companies work, turbine's policy is NOT that they do not release sub numbers it is that they release only sub numbers that they believe will directly benifit the bottom line of the game. if LotRO had record setting subs (which 800k and the other claims would indicate) then they would be shoting it from every outlet they could as that would be like a big gamer community stamp of approval and a big bandwagon bonus to attracting new players.
Now tell me Turbine is not selling their game on the claim of its achievement in reaching record numbers of players. We have all seen the ads, the comments, etc. Clearly Turbine is doing the bandwagon thing. So how in the world could they determine that the best way to attract players is by advertising how popular they are but NOT publishing legitimate subscriptions numbers unless the reality is that the subscription numbers are not impressive or otherwise notable? 4 million characters created? Even that is qualified with 'estimated' - hell, they could have had a DVE write a script to create 2 million toons one evening so that is a completely meaningless claim/statistic. Why would they use something so obviously BS is they had the real record numbers to back it up?
Come on man, it is obvious by this alone - add in the server count thing and the other points and clearly Turbine is trying to generate hype with obfuscation and specious claims because the real numbers don't prove out the hype.
Yes because we know that Companies make fake press releases. I guess World Of Warcraft really only has 5 subscribers. /sarcasm offThe fact remains that in that press release the President of Turbine goes on the record saying that LOTRO is the second Largest MMO. That is a statement of fact. They can't make up accounts and then claim to be the second largest. So while we can't know for sure how many people are playing we do know that it is more then any other game except World of Warcraft in the NA/EU marketplace.
So what is number 2 that we know the subscription number for currently and then we know that LOTRO has more then that one. Pretty simple.
War Beta Tester
Like P.T. Barnum said, a sucker is born everyday. Turbine is making these specious claims because they know people will misread it and miss the subtle parsing and repeat and believe the impression of what they said even though the specifics are quite differant. Below is what was said by Turbine's CEO:
Jeff Anderson: It couldn't really be much better. We've had just terrific response from the community, the sales have been great, we've managed the number one position off and on; the response from the editors, the reviewers, it's racking up the rewards, game of the month, editor's choice awards ... it's really gratifying. You know a bunch of people poured their heart and soul into making this product, and so I'm enthusiastic for them that they can finally see the true value of the hard work that they've put in. We're probably now the second-largest MMORPG operating that was built in the US right now, you know, built in North America/Europe.
Hrm, interest - he says probably and then stammers to qualify it by saying the US then saying North America/Europe. Reminds me of bill Clinton's testimony saying "it depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is". Total BS speak. Just like the 4 million character thing is BS - even if it is completely accurate it means nothing - it is just a way to seem to be saying they are oh so popular without having to provide proof or lie - in short, it is what people who are BLUFFING do.
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Like P.T. Barnum said, a sucker is born everyday. Turbine is making these specious claims because they know people will misread it and miss the subtle parsing and repeat and believe the impression of what they said even though the specifics are quite differant. Below is what was said by Turbine's CEO:
Jeff Anderson: It couldn't really be much better. We've had just terrific response from the community, the sales have been great, we've managed the number one position off and on; the response from the editors, the reviewers, it's racking up the rewards, game of the month, editor's choice awards ... it's really gratifying. You know a bunch of people poured their heart and soul into making this product, and so I'm enthusiastic for them that they can finally see the true value of the hard work that they've put in. We're probably now the second-largest MMORPG operating that was built in the US right now, you know, built in North America/Europe.
Hrm, interest - he says probably and then stammers to qualify it by saying the US then saying North America/Europe. Reminds me of bill Clinton's testimony saying "it depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is". Total BS speak. Just like the 4 million character thing is BS - even if it is completely accurate it means nothing - it is just a way to seem to be saying they are oh so popular without having to provide proof or lie - in short, it is what people who are BLUFFING do.
PLAY THE LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE™ FOR FREE!
Turbine launches 7-day Free Trial Program for the Hottest MMO of the Year
WESTWOOD, MA -- August 29, 2007 -- Turbine, Inc. has launched the official 7-day free trial of The Lord of the Rings™: Shadows of Angmar™ (LOTRO). Beginning today, fans in North America, Australia and New Zealand can play the best online game for free by visiting http://trial.lotro.com/.
LOTRO has received critical acclaim from around the globe. Since its launch in April, LOTRO has quickly become the second largest MMORPG with an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home. The game continues to grow with two massive updates that have increased the world by over 20%:
Is not the same as Probably the second largest. It says in their press release that LOTRO HAS become the second largest MMORPG.
War Beta Tester
Ahh, but see they don't say that at all. They have two qualifiers slighly worked into that statement that you have to parse. let me help you translate:
Since its launch in April, LOTRO has quickly become the second largest MMORPG with an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home
The comment starts with "since its launch" which qualifies the whole statement to say that of MMOs launched since LotRO is has become ...blah, blah, blah. Additionally, and more of a qualification, is the end of the statement where they provide the measurement against which they are making the claim, "an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home" which means little as has been pointed out before because the characters created means nothing for so many obvious reasons.
So, again, this is the marketing speak they use. Qualified statements of vague relevance all intended to make it sound like they are some kind of second coming of WoW. But each statement is clearly not saying what it seems to say, and the lack of just coming out and saying it makes it obvious that they can't say it - so they craft statements to make it seem as if they are trying to capitalize on the fans and publics mis-perception.
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It wouldn't be the 3rd most popular mmorpg every, more like number 6 or 7.
When I said that I guess I meant of the P2P style games in the MMO genre..... WoW, Lineage 1 and 2 are the only P2P games that have gone over 1M subs.The fact is that having 1M subs in the MMO business makes you pretty successful. 800k is still pretty far fetched in my book.
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
"Jeff Anderson: It couldn't really be much better. We've had just terrific response from the community, the sales have been great, we've managed the number one position off and on; the response from the editors, the reviewers, it's racking up the rewards, game of the month, editor's choice awards ... it's really gratifying. You know a bunch of people poured their heart and soul into making this product, and so I'm enthusiastic for them that they can finally see the true value of the hard work that they've put in. We're probably now the second-largest MMORPG operating that was built in the US right now, you know, built in North America/Europe."
"...probably now the second-largest MMORPG..." means nothing, Mr. Anderson knows EXACLTY where they are, so why not spit it out? And, then he makes the disclaimer "...built in the US..." Well, just what does that mean? Is Sony considered a Japanese company?
If Sony must be ignored in his statement, then we are talking about a much smaller number than 800k.
As for, 4 million characters, that is completely meaningless also; especially with free trial subscriptions.
The only thing that counts is currently paying customers, not characters created or even total subscriptions ever.
I see back on Jun 7, mmogdata had LOTRO at 430k and on Jul 7, they have it at 670k. It would be good to see these references also.
Oh god, of course they will inflate the numbers in any way possible, probably every name to ever crest their website is counted. Hey I'd do the same, why not, lol.
"Turbine said this week that its Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) game is now the second-most popular massively multiplayer online game, after World of Warcraft, which claims 9 million subscribers. Turbine said that LOTRO subscribers have created 4 million fantasy characters since the game was introduced in April.
Privately held Turbine refuses to reveal the number of actual subscribers, who pay $50 for game software and a monthly subscription fee of around $15. But since each LOTRO subscription lets the player create up to five characters, the game has attracted at least 800,000 subscribers in just four months."
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/09/08/turbine_stakes_its_online_game_turf/
I have to agree with AgtSmith on this one. The quotes are clear and It's easy to see what happened here.
The only thing said by Turbine was that subscribers have created 4 million characters since the game was introduced in April.
The part about the game being the second-most popular leaves out the "...built in the US..." part of the quote and, "attracted at least 800,000 subscribers in just four months," is the author's bad guess, using the 4 million characters statement from Turbine.
What also makes it ambigous is that they don't specifically say "paying" subscribers, like WoW does. So, are they including those that had free trial subscriptions and beta subscriptions?
The problem with "characters," is that anyone can create as many as they want with as many free accounts as the like, and total characters created since release does not represent currently paying subscribers at all; not everyone that ever created a free account and made characters, or even that subscribed at one time and made characters, is still playing, nor paying.
If 4 million characters have been created in total, since release, including all the thousands of free trial subscriptions, then actual currently paying subscribers is much, much less than 800k.
This needs to be corrected on MMOGData's chart.
That sounds about right. Please give a reference for 180k subs, otherwise it means nothing.
Are you going off box sales?
"The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar sold over 172,000 copies during the quarter, including the special edition of the game." Aug 2, 2007
http://au.gamespot.com/news/6176030.html
As you know, sales are not the same as current subscriptions.