Combat in MMORPG's

Mantle

Having played so many mmorpgs i finally had to get some opinions off my chest, iv played through horizons asherons call 2 and beta tested endless mmorpgs and they all have exactly the same comabt system, dont give me all that rubbish about different skill systems at the end it is point and click and combined with the endless hunting and xping (which i understand is an unremovable aspect of mmorpgs) it all becomes intensely boreing. So after recently giving up on the beta of Ryzom i had a look at the ol gaming shelf and low and behold what do i see but my ancient copy of morrowind and the two expansions. I start playing through and i realised:

'good god this game is years old and yet its unrecordabley more fun and more engaging than any mmorpgs iv ben playing, what is wrong with the designers?'

Morrowind which is widely excepted as one of the best single player RPG's next to games like baldurs gates and neverwinter nights but i think its the best of anything. and why? the combat system i found myself actually SHOOTING arrows, not just clicking and pointing i am actually aiming i have to thinka bout what im doing im aiming my spells im actually swinging my sword and regulating how much damage it does. I understand that there is a strong statistic element behind the combat, i know because of been training my sword skill so i hit more but when im fighting it doesnt matter, i know im hitting this theif in the head with my sword and its exciting, its compelling and its so much more interesting that watching my lkittle man from third person beat a bug senseless while i sit back and slurp beer until i become comatosed (by the repetitive gameplay not the alchohol)

So i ask you, why have no MMORPG's implemented this why why why it seems so obvious so i must be missing something i simply cannot understand, any mmorpg i have played would be vastly improved by this, the immersion of being in first person the actual skill required for things like marksmanship but still the leveling (thats stll very important) and RPG chances.

 

Although this is irrelevent to my main point id like to put another idea forward, player driven quests. now iv seen a mmorpg in creation that claims this but im sceptical, now wouldnt it be good if higher level players could set small quests to lower levels? to join my guild you must bring me the head of an minatour, slay this creature thats been pillaging villages and ill pay you? that would make the games more exciting and last longer, thoughts? (feel free to ignore this the first point is my main one)

Xaldor

HERE HERE!!!!   BRAVO!!!!

I wish that a hack'n'slash mmorpg came out like morrowind, diablo series, or everquest:champions of norrath....I am so sick of point-click-wait....give me a skill based mmorpg, and give it to me NOW...Xaldor

NeoDrakeskin

I would imagine a lot of it would have to do with Lag. Have you ever played a first person shooter with a group of guys and have you ever had problems shooting them due to you lagging? Well imagine if you had THOUSANDS of players playing a game where you had to be accurate to be successful. Planetside did it and while a lot of the time it's okay, you do run into some nasty lag and it will cause you to loose the fight. In a FPS setting it's okay because you just respawn and do it all over again, but in a MMORPG setting, you loose your corpse, loose xp, and there is much more penalty for the death. It could end up VERY frustrating for someone.

Smelly_Armor

Good points Mantle.

I agree with you, and how many of us would like to see Bethseda put out an mmorpg based on The Elder Scrolls III, Morrowind series?  I would.  I too just got done with SoR open beta on June 10th. I've downloaded and played Priston Tale, and it is not bad for a free mmorpg. I find myself going back to Morrowind though.

It is a dilemma with the combat in mmorpgs. Why haven't devs put it more interesting combat? Who knows, but Neodrakeskin has a good point with lag issues. Maybe this trend will change when we see the new mmorpgs this summer and fall.

"The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action." Hartley's 1st Law

bsherlock

This post is going to sound uneducated, but i am gonna go off and do my research and edit it soon i hope.

But i have read somewhere that one game in development is going to use the exact system you suggested, and they have found some kind of way around the lag issue by doing something wierd with the servers they use.

I agree that it is a very good idea, and using conventional methods lag is the major drawback, but hopefully if this company is successful more games may follow suit with engaging combat rather than boring combat.

Elite Member - MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mantle

sherlock link me to this game!! lol

|MaguS|

Real Time combat would completly SUCK in a raid situation... Can you imagine 50+ people wacking on a single mob? What happens if the mob is the same size or smaller then the players?

It all sounds great and Im sure no one would complain if it was possible to do it without the lag and annoyance but with how many of these games are now unless its a FPS it wont work. Either deal with it or go play a non MMORPG.

Smelly_Armor

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Originally posted by |MaguS|

Real Time combat would completly SUCK in a raid situation... Can you imagine 50+ people wacking on a single mob? What happens if the mob is the same size or smaller then the players?
It all sounds great and Im sure no one would complain if it was possible to do it without the lag and annoyance but with how many of these games are now unless its a FPS it wont work. Either deal with it or go play a non MMORPG.

---

You make good points Magus. Yes, in RAID situations there would be issues, but I believe a solution could be found around it.

I do personally deal with the combat and other issues in an mmorpg because I like to play mmorpgs, but there is nothing wrong in people wanting to express what they want in an mmorpg. I personally would like to at least see more detailed and varied combat than is already in place in most mmorpgs. In beta testing SoR, fighters were limited to just a few moves that got boring to watch after a while. I don't think it is unfair or unrealistic.to ask for at least better and more diverse combat options.

"The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action." Hartley's 1st Law

Mantle

well fps problems in relation to the combt system is something i can put forward any solution too, in terms of 50 people attacking one mob id hope for something like that to ever happen since obviously its totally unrealistic (except of course if its a massive dragon or something and it is possible to mob) im hoping for some player wars or something where its more 1 on 2 1 on 1 i dont think thats totally unreasnoble and i doubt creatures being too small for mob ups will be something that takes away from the gaming experience, lag seems to be the only feasible problem IMHO, no idea for any solution surrounding that except lowering options such as graphics or making the code and information surrounding an attack easy enough for a 3 year old to program so it is easier to process (but i dont pretened to know very much about that sort of thing.)

Planetside has gotten away with it fairly easily and fps from the combat must be a worse problem because of muzzle flashes and explosions, im sure theres a solution.

Xaldor

Truth is for me, I've canceled all my MMORPG accounts because of the horrible combat systems in all MMORPG's that i've played.  I will not buy another MMORPG until someone comes out with an engaging combat system.  It doesn't even haver to be real time either...KOTOR's combat system worked great for me...just something fun that's all. 

By the way I just bought elder scrolls for the first time ever, and I've only been playing for 2 days, and I already know that this is going to be my favorite RPG of all time...Xaldor

GumbyX

I personally would scoff at any game that mimics Morrowind's clunky controls.  They aren't immersive.  I don't suddenly think that I have a sword in my hand instead of a mouse.  City of Heroes tries to break the convention, where each attack (even the basic punch) is a "skill" that is hotkeyed. IE no autoattack.  In the end, it's even more annoying IMO.

I DO think that meelee types fequently get left out of the mix in MMORPG's as opposed to mage types that rely totally on thier skills to survive.

Alistair

Sherlock is talking about UXO.  Unfortunately, UXO is still in limbo, being an EA game and all.  There will be skill based combat (somewhat) involved however.

To me, and I've said it before, Morrowing will be to forever to me the MMORPG that wasn't.  It had all the great elements of an RPG without the most important aspect...the people.  If they'd made it multiplayer, or given it multiplayer support, it would have revolutionized MMORPGs.  Sadly, that didn't happen and because of it I have a rather tough time following through the game (I've only done it completely once).

Anyway, UXO.  I think there was another one too...not sure exactly...maybe Guild Wars?

AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!

Krimson

Here is my bit on this.... There is 1 game where all this point and click camp crap will end.  I have played almost every single mmorpg out there, beta tested at least 10, and stayed with Asherons Call for 4.5 years, and a few for over a year.  As previously said the damn systems are all the same, click the stupid mouse button and sit back or follow the creature around, not actually using "skill" if you will as in Diablo II.  In my opinion MMORPGs were originally crafted to visually project the original world of Dungeons and Dragons into our minds.  It started with pen and paper games, then moved to pen and paper games online with thousands of people, then to first wave mmorpg's and now we are to another level of advancement.  In my opinion Dungeons and Dragons online will choke, smother, drown, burn and kick the crap out of the sterotype of the mmorpg world.  I believe this game will revolutionize the world of gaming online, and I hope that this will be the turning point, and that it will all evolve for the better down the road.

This is the beginning of my past. This is the end of my journey.

|MaguS|

KOTOR's combat system wouldn't work because you really can't pause a MMPRPG now and without the pausing, its really not much different from a normal MMORPG's battle system except for adding more animations.

As for fighting a single opponent being unrealistic? Says who? I mean whats so realistic about fighting a dragon? I mean what if the opponent was a guardian golem? or a super powerful being? I mean it doesn't have to be large to be powerfull now does it?

Take Seru in EQLive, He was only slightly bigger then a normal PC and you needed about 60+ people to take him down. Or maybe "The Hand of Maestro", It was the size of a foot yet tough as nails when it original released.

(I used EQLive as an example because most if not all my raid experiance comes from it)

The most engaging combat in a MMORPG is probably CoH mainly because you constantly need to press the attack you want, there is no real auto combat (from what I have played I had to always click punch and wait for it to reload).

bsherlock

Argh i still cant find the game i was on about, maybe i was dreaming?

But i am sure it mentioned something about a new way of linking servers in some kind of grid pattern rather than in the usual way.

It wasnt UX:O so does this help anyone know what i am on about?

Elite Member - MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Orcc

Well i dont know what game youre talking about but ill post the link to UXOs combat page. This gives you a good idea of waht to expect.

http://uxo.ea.com/feature_combat.html

While it is stuck in limbo, a recent letter from EA assures that UXO is still in developement, but no one knows exactly how it stands.

m0j0

Yah, the idea of a MMORPG where you actually told it where to hit and you don't just hit them EVERY SINGLE TIME with your bow and arrow but have to actually strategicly aim would be definitly a great hit.

Orcc

Ya it would be cool, but i think it would be hard to implement in a MMORPG, the reason being because they try to accomodate a large amount of gamers into one world. Sure it would be cool if there were more skill involved, but what about the casual player who cant aim very well? Should he be forced to play in a way he does not like because his aim is not as good as the next persons? A targeting system will almost always be implemented in a MMOG so that the vast majority can have fun and not those who dedicate themselves to practicing that perfect shot.

TaskyZZ

Freeworld has a combat system where you actualy swing the sword and shoot the bow...

bsherlock

Ok still cant find the game, so i guess i made it all up

either way i still think that this method would work in most games, it worked in Morrowind and didnt need you to be a crack archer or spend hours practicing. And i think against most AI it would work well. The pitfalls are in PvP when you get people running in circles and jumping up and down all the time. Then it would be quite hard to actually hit your opponent, so i have just convinced myself that aiming is a bad idea, however having to click the mouse at make an attack isnt a bad idea.

I like CoH where each attack you make involves a hotkey or mouse click, it keeps you involved and if you take your eye off the ball you will lose no matter how strong your character.

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Xaldor

I am so sick of people, and dev's, wanting to cater to the casual gamer.  Most all gamers are casual gamers...ie. have jobs, go to school, have wives/husbands/gf's/bf's.  Only a small portion of gamers play more than 6-8 hours a day *if you do this i understand I was once there*.  Most gamers play games because of the satisfation of accompolishing something significant within the gameworld...ie. kill a high level mob... get past a tough level...beating your friend in a sports game...etc...etc...etc...

Games should have some level of difficulty to make it more rewarding to the gamer when he/she accomplishes a feat that he/she has been trying to accomplish for some time.  If it was easy to finish GTA3 I would have hated it.  If it was easy to finish Chronicles of Riddick (awesome game by the way) I would have hated it.  If it were easy to build an uber character the gamer wouldn't be attached to siad character and would quit their subscription.

Let's not confuse "casual gamers" with inept gamers.....Xaldor

 

Orcc

Oh ya i forgot the most important aspect, lag and peoples systems. Casual players tend to have lower end systems and possbily dial-up, while the average person has a good machine and cable or DSL. People who have high lag will miss and have troubles hitting a monster or, even more evere, would be another player (assuming PVP) who has a good connection. You know how hard it is to play an online FPS when you have crappy ping and they have a good one. Same thing applies here.

ReverendDan

Yay - my favourite topic has cropped up again! This is about the fourth or fifth thread on the subject that's cropped up in the month I've been registered. DEVELOPERS TAKE NOTE - WE DO NOT WANT TO CLICK ON SOMETHING AND THEN WAIT FOR US OR IT TO DIE (possibly of boredom)! I go along with it in games which have a strong story (eg FF VII) or have great scripts (Planescape: Torment), but as these elements tend to be less prominent in online games the combat needs to be more entertaining as there is more of a focus on it.

Some people have even bandied about the idea of "beat-em-up" style RPGS but as beat-em-ups have never really worked out on PCs anyway (why is it that? you can get joypads for PCs but somehow it's just not the same) then that is probably a bit hopeful.

Sci-fi games manage ok due to the FPS slant they can have, but doing melee combat well is tricky enough in offline games. I agree with using Bethesda's system, but I'd rather use the one from Morrowind's prequel, Daggerfall.

Orcc

hitting myself in the head with a brick > turn-based