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Grouping in MMO's
Perilous1
Member Posts: 52
Just wondering how others feel about the trend in MMO's that require you to group with others to advance your character.
Personally, I prefer to solo whenever possible. I am not against grouping in general, I just feel it should be optional. I understand that there should be certain places in the game world that might require a large group to successfully navigate and I applaud that. However, it bugs me to no end that several MMO's are designed that after you've gained a few initial levels you are then litteraly required to group up in order to gain experience and level up further.
It doesn't seem too difficult that when a solo player initiates combat against a PvE target that the target's effective level then adjusts to provide a comparable opppent based on the player's level. That way, it's always a decent battle and the experience gained is comensurate for a solo player.
That same adjustment could be applied to when a group initiates combat the target(s) effective level adjusts based on the strength of the attacking party.
This may seem like a small matter to most players, but for those of us whose enjoyment of playing is tightly wrapped up in solo'ing it's a real downer when you start to get into a new MMO and then have it rendered worthless to you because the Dev's rolled out another cookie-cutter design that could easily have been fixed and made far more flexible.
Thoughts?
Comments
This is not a developing trend, its been that way for a lllooonnnggg time. It went easy-to-level with the advent of "Easy Gaming" generation (WoW and EQII specifically). Vanguard tried to bring back the group-based content, and had a crushing defeat (not sure if it was the content, quality, or performance).
In my not-so humble opinion, they need a game that has a fair enough split that, in the event I cannot find a group, I can solo. I think all class quests should be solo, unless they cross storylines with specific classes (Paladin and Cleric can group for a part), and they should follow you through the entire game. Then they should have their level based group quests that start and end like short stories.
Yea having a good split is nice. But it's been a long time since I played a game that I would even consider grouping over solo-play... even though I like grouping more.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
You got it backwards. The trend is MMO's are more soloable then ever (WoW and EQ2). The old style was forced grouping (EQ and FFXI). Now MMO's are going with the WoW model.
I've only grouped one time in EQ2 and I had tons of fun. The problem is, well for me any ways, I'm a cusal gamer, although if I have the time play until I get the point of blah. In Wow I grop every so often and its great. But no one really teams up with lower lvl players. I hope I got that worng.
While i prefer to play in groups i do not like to be forced into it. there are times where I just want to solo.
Do you Beta for any of the other MMO's due out in the next 6 months? I do, nearly every last one of them. I know excatly what I am talking about when I say that the trend is more towards required grouping rather than solo play. And the reason for this is clear as well.. Gaming development companies are not self-funded. They are either a publically traded corporation that has to answer to the shareholders, or they are privately owned and funded by a group of investors. Either way, the number one top priority for them is to rope players into playing/paying for as long as possible. When you have to find other players to group with to get things done, you are fulfilling that priority on multiple levels and so we as players are once again herded into not just playing their game, but playing it their way.
Excatly? Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Sorry, couldn't resistAs for solo'ing/group'ing in MMO's, I don't like a system that would fit the definition of forced grouping (ie. a game that was 100% raids). However MMO's ARE massively multiplayer and that to me is their main attraction. The social system is very important. If dev's are going to bother making a MMO then the model should encourage socializing to a large degree. If I was not interested in the social dynamics aspect of MMO's I would just stick with single player RPG's and save the monthly fees.
I think a good way to weigh out whether a MMO title is predominantly solo or predominantly group oriented is to estimate what portion of the game can be experienced if you were the only player on the server. In WoW's case (sorry have to use it), I would say that it was 90% soloable at release. With the added raids and battlegrounds it is probably down to 75% soloable.
I really don't know how to make it any more clear.. I get that World of Warcraft is the top MMO out right now, I never once disputed that. You're posting percentages of WoW playability as if WoW is the topic in this thread... It's not.
Please read the first post again, since you seem to have the mistaken impression that I was dogging solo'ing in World of Warcraft. I clearly stated that this appears to be an evolving trend in MMO's of late. If someone says MMO and you hear WoW then I'm honestly surprised that you pulled yourself out of the game long enough to read a forum post.
World of Warcraft is an amazing game but it is ultimately another cookie-cutter, spawned from the same game mold as Everquest and every MMORPG released in between. Never let it be said that Blizzard hasn't pushed the envelope of what can be done with a game from that mold, but that is pretty much it. It's not going to get any better than that.. Not until we break that mold and evolve the genre.
As I said, I've played nearly all the Beta's available for the up and coming releases, and it's all the same story. Not one Dev group out there is risking a break from that mold for fear of not turning a profit. And of course, they have to fret over the bottom line as they are businesses out to make a buck. My point in all this is that we as players are going to be stuck playing the same game with different names until a Development groups steps up, one that isn't mired by investors or stockholders, and puts a unique vision on the line. We all know what we're sick of in these games, and what we all would do personally to fix it.
Ironically, we're our own worst enemy during the Development of these games. We get on their forums and participate in endless polls with varied suggestions and if the Devs make the mistake of listening to us, their original vision gets compromised and we never get to play the game they wanted to give us. The two biggest obstacles to a good game is a marketing department, which is the inhouse pawn of the investors, and the players themselves.
You got it backwards. The trend is MMO's are more soloable then ever (WoW and EQ2). The old style was forced grouping (EQ and FFXI). Now MMO's are going with the WoW model.
It always makes me laugh when people say WoW was a solo game. When i played at least advancing your character in any form solo after reaching level cap was impossible. I want to group because I want to not because I have 2. I want to group with pwople that I enjoy playing with not because I need more people to fill raid spots.
WoW doesn't emphasize the group game early on and everyone solos to the level cap. Then at the level cap it puts full emphasis on the group game and neglects the solo game. Totally nuts.
Do you Beta for any of the other MMO's due out in the next 6 months? I do, nearly every last one of them. I know excatly what I am talking about when I say that the trend is more towards required grouping rather than solo play. And the reason for this is clear as well.. Gaming development companies are not self-funded. They are either a publically traded corporation that has to answer to the shareholders, or they are privately owned and funded by a group of investors. Either way, the number one top priority for them is to rope players into playing/paying for as long as possible. When you have to find other players to group with to get things done, you are fulfilling that priority on multiple levels and so we as players are once again herded into not just playing their game, but playing it their way.
You talk about shareholders and their priorties. Their priorty to make MONEY..they don't give a damn about anything else. Blizzard is making at least $120 million a month off WoW because it's an easy, accessible game that appeals to the masses. Most developers will follow this trend because it's the most profitable trend. Very easy to understand.
You have just hit on an issue that seems to be very controversial. Although it is not a MMO, many players highly dislike Elder Scrolls 4 mob leveling. At any level you can go into any dungeon and fight and survive. Personally I love ES4, but a large percentage of MMO players would prefer the ability to choose their fights based on difficulty. The argument against a mob leveling scheme is that all fights seem very similar.
As far as solo vs party- when I played Wow I was 65% solo and 35% small party. WoW's 5 party instances are a lot of fun, and the social aspect of working with other people can be very enjoyable. I also usually teamed up with 1 or 2 other players when working in difficult zones to get quests accomplished. I played WoW for 2 years and I would not have lasted that long if it was not for the "social" aspects of the game.
Btw, I quit Wow because of the end game, as I'm not into raids and honestly I burned out on WoW's static world and the repetitive nature of kill and collect quests- level 1= kill XX this. level 60= kill xx that.
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Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Overall, great post.
OPTIONS to SOLO, GROUP & RAID
(1) I prefer to solo
(a) The greatest problem is that developers often make solo content less meaningful and less fun than group content. The rewards tend to be lower. Developers need to think outside of the box on this.
Solutions:
i) solo epic Quests that begin at level 1 and finish at max level that make you feel apart of the game's lore, world, and community.
ii) heroic epic Quests for items, awards, rewards, and advancement
iii) character customization that is deep that allows players to create a character that is capable in a group and solo setting; this can include AA points that can be grinded; tasks and Quests for special abilities.
(2) I enjoy grouping
(a) I enjoy grouping but it can be burdensome, tedious, and annoying.
i) it is burdensome when finding a group is difficult; whether finding more players or joining a group.
ii) it is tedious when it is forced upon a player to group and feels routine to get items for faction or 10 paws to collect and turn-in; this is also true of Quests in general.
iii) it is annoying when someone is harassing you in your group about how to play.
(3) Raiding is great - on occassion
(a) I really enjoy raiding, but I dislike it when it is forced and routine or the only aspect to end-game. Raiding in my view should be a fairly rare event. It should be server-raid in which wide level ranges and different guilds could cooperate to defeat a dragon terrorizing a city. It should not be, "let's meet, every Wednesday, at 7:00 p.m. EST to defeat this predictable mob, in this predictable dungeon, for the 8th time."
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Do you Beta for any of the other MMO's due out in the next 6 months? I do, nearly every last one of them. I know excatly what I am talking about when I say that the trend is more towards required grouping rather than solo play. And the reason for this is clear as well.. Gaming development companies are not self-funded. They are either a publically traded corporation that has to answer to the shareholders, or they are privately owned and funded by a group of investors. Either way, the number one top priority for them is to rope players into playing/paying for as long as possible. When you have to find other players to group with to get things done, you are fulfilling that priority on multiple levels and so we as players are once again herded into not just playing their game, but playing it their way.
You talk about shareholders and their priorties. Their priorty to make MONEY..they don't give a damn about anything else. Blizzard is making at least $120 million a month off WoW because it's an easy, accessible game that appeals to the masses. Most developers will follow this trend because it's the most profitable trend. Very easy to understand.
Agree, it's easy to understand but they will fail every time if they continue to be so narrow minded. A publisher pads the pockets of the devs so why would devs opt to not make money? They wont. Until a developer is willing to break the mold and bear the initial finacial reprecusions. Its a hell of a risk and at this point not sure any dev is willing to risk it.
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I hate to anoy the OP and use WoW as an example, but it was the last game I played, (quit about 7 months ago, waiting on Aion/War/PotBS) but it does make for a good example of what MMOs are like today.
I actually liked how they did the grouping and grouping content in WoW, not just the 5 man instances, (wich btw, Deadmines was the first one i did, and is still, my favorite, screw end-game content, i remember my first deadmines experience more than i do my first End-game run!) but i enjoyed how i could base my game-play on mood, if i felt like just casually grinding out some quest xp, or gather some mats i could solo for HOURS before i had to group to finish a chain or beat a specific mob. But if i really wanted to hammer out a ton of quests in a short amount of time, i could grab a group (typically very quick) and we could pound out the quests crazy fast, all the while enjoying our selves. group combat was fun for the most part. (i typically liked to chalenge myself, see how many mobs i could drop at once).
As for forced grouping, im not a fan of. 80% of the content in WoW is soloable, (you usually have to be a bit more experienced before you can solo certain content). but grouping is usually an option. I like options. I dont want to be forced into a group unless some sort of storyline/plot explains why. They give me a story for this group to set out on epic adventure i will sign on in a heart-beat, but if i have to group just so i can gain a lvl, then im a bit irritated.
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Since some of you can't drop the World of Warcraft angle and continue to point out that it is allegedly solo-friendly.. Allow me to show you how it isn't:
Mobs in World of Warcraft drop weapons and armor that are typically seven levels below the mob level itself. So, in order to get a drop at your level you pretty much have no choice but to group up. Now, if you're farming for lesser items then it's not an issue. But if you want decent experience and drops to upgrade your gear then you are herded into having to group.
Moving on.. If you want to craft in World of Warcraft as well? Holy crap, you had not only better group often but also join a Guild and milk the use of it's members as much as possible. Crafting beyond skill 200 in WoW becomes insanely expensive.
Want a mount? Then you need to squirrel away 90+ gold by level 40 (unless you're a Warlock or Paladin). That is unlikely to happen if you're buying upgrades to your equipment from the Auction House along the way. So, you're back to needing drops for your level, hence it's required grouping.
Don't kid yourself in thinking that World of Warcraft is solo-friendly unless you enjoy following an extremely narrow advancement path that leeches much of the enjoyment from the game.
You can solo, ok so MAYBE you need your guildies to help get a raid drop or help farm mats but other then that you dont absolutly need anyone. Your last line about how it "leeches much of the enjoyment from the game" must be based on bad experiances or poor planning. If you are one of those trolls that HAS to have every piece of tier 3 then sure you need help from others. I guess some folks need everything handed to them and w/o someome to do so they get turned off quickly.
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I am not referring to level 60+ gear, I thought that was fairly clear as all my comments were about "leveling up". Its not hard to understand that if mobs your level drop gear seven levels below yours then you either need to group to fight much higher level mobs to get drops your level.. Or shop the Auction House whenever you want to upgrade.
As you level your current gear becomes less effective and you are no longer able to beat mobs your level, further herding you into groups for much needed support. This shouldn't even be argued, if you played World of Warcraft it has most certainly happened to you. I am starting to get the impression that if you're actually debating this simple fact that you either buy online gold to support yourself, or you take constant handouts from friends or Guildies and so have no idea how leveling up solo is not game-friendly.
It is very dangerous for a company to 'force' players to group up for several reasons.
* If I can not level without a group and can't find one....I don't play.
* Its frustrating walking around for hours and screaming in chat for anyone who is (A) in the area (B) wants to do that dungeon (C) within the same level bracket (D) Then know's how to play in a group properly!
How many times have you found yourself with a group of 3 people and need one more and 30 minutes later someone drops out to join another group, another goes for dinner...bah!! Its infuriating!
Some games that I found to be fine without a group were, Neocrom (when I got bored I tend to sniper groups who were doing dungeons), EVE, Jumpgate, Earth & Beyond. Sure there were parts you need a group but hey it didn't force you to sit there and scream like a jerk for hours. LFG! Level 35 Sorceror....God I hated doing that.
How about a 2 part dungeon process.. There is a solo part that is say 50% of the dungeon but has a boss that a solo player could kill. However to progress you probably need help... EVE has something similar with hives. I have found a hive before and cleared it out. It gave me a key to another huge hive and I just didn't go as I knew I needed a group. works well.
I am not referring to level 60+ gear, I thought that was fairly clear as all my comments were about "leveling up". Its not hard to understand that if mobs your level drop gear seven levels below yours then you either need to group to fight much higher level mobs to get drops your level.. Or shop the Auction House whenever you want to upgrade.
As you level your current gear becomes less effective and you are no longer able to beat mobs your level, further herding you into groups for much needed support. This shouldn't even be argued, if you played World of Warcraft it has most certainly happened to you. I am starting to get the impression that if you're actually debating this simple fact that you either buy online gold to support yourself, or you take constant handouts from friends or Guildies and so have no idea how leveling up solo is not game-friendly.
OP, you must have played a different WOW than I did... I solo'd 5 characters to level 60....rarely grouping except in key instances like Uldamen and what not...and not because i cared about the gear.... only to get the quests done....No matter what the class, I could always solo mobs 3-4 levels above me, (not elites of course) and as for gear...you gather up all those lower level drop and sell them on the AH.,.and then buy the greens/blues you need off the AH to level further.
But WOW wasn't the original issue right? You are claiming that upcoming games require more grouping. Haven't played any of the upcoming betas so no clue what they bring, but a bit more grouping would be welcome, as long as they don't all follow the path LotRO (and even WOW) chose at the upper levels/endgame and make it all forced grouping....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maintaining gear that is equal in level to your character is not a prerequisite for advancement. Nor is experience gain rate all that different: kill quests go faster in a group, item gathering quests take longer. Grouping tends to put you at the front half of the character advancement wave whereas soloing tends to put you in back half. One may like to have better gear sooner but wanting and needing are different.
Your crafting and mount acquisition don't hold water for me either. I hit 300 crafting on my own and bought my own mounts (lvl 40 and lvl 60 epic). Sure you can get there faster if people give you money but there are no barriers to solo farming for the money.
To be honest, if WoW were made more solo friendly as per your examples, I think it would be just plain retarded. Not saying that it would be so for others - I just don't see a purpose to MMOs if there is no reason for player interaction at all.
As you level your current gear becomes less effective and you are no longer able to beat mobs your level, further herding you into groups for much needed support. This shouldn't even be argued, if you played World of Warcraft it has most certainly happened to you. I am starting to get the impression that if you're actually debating this simple fact that you either buy online gold to support yourself, or you take constant handouts from friends or Guildies and so have no idea how leveling up solo is not game-friendly.
I'd love to do solo as much as you but if all you do is solo, it is all most defeating the purpose of participating in a MMO. Might be better to do RPGs... WoW seems to be one of the more solo friendly MMOs out there. I think developers for a MMO are much more worried about group dynamics than solo content. Not saying that's good, just a fact of MMO development.
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Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
I think a key element to this question is define what advancement you're talking about, and where it caps out. With advancement I mean levels, character skills and equipment.
I think a player putting in 14 hours per week should be able to find solo content for about 3-6 months in any MMOG, not counting replayability through making new characters. Demanding anything more than that is in my opinion expecting too much from developers who must create everything manually - even worse if people at the same time complain about yet another kill X, gather Y quest.
Group play should advance you through the solo content faster, and make you able to defeat some additional content for better rewards along the way - rewards that a solo player can not get until he has out-levelled it quite a bit.
Additionally, when you've capped out on the solo play advancement possibilities, there should still be plenty of room for advancing your character through group play - maybe even raid play. And a solo player should never be able to do this stuff, again due to content production. If you make a solo player able to complete the highest raid content, it'll either be an insanely slow grind (don't we love grinding?) or the group players will have competed all the devs can produce too fats and moved on.
These games are inherently based on group effort and social interaction, and through social play comes friends, guilds and alliances. These keep veteran players in the game longer, which you need for the lasting community (You'll notice this mainly when your game is entering its late years); but not for the mass money - the money purse is filled by those soloers who never even get to the solo cap.
The above should give enjoyment for most Achiever players. The non-Socialiser Achievers can push the limit for advancing far and/or fast as soloers. The Socialiser Achievers can push it to the very end together with their allies. And the non-Socialiser Achiever who claims he has the right to get the same as a Socialiser Achiever can try to remember he was given the same deal upon signing up for the game as the others, but chose to not take full advantage of the possibilities of the game.
Personally, I haven't seen the trend, but welcome any movement to the above. No (or little) reward from grouping, or forced grouping to be able to advance beyond what you can do solo in a few months, are both equally huge mistakes, in my opinion.
I can understand the disposition of asking, "Why play an MMO if you're prefer to solo?"
The answer is that I thrive on competition. Its my primary reason for playing anything online. There is no genuine competition to be gained by grouping with others. Solo however, I can measure myself against others, both soloists and groupers. Even when I PvP I prefer to seek out a lone opponent and go one-on-one with them, strategically of course. I want to take out a critical Healer or Tank that will hurt the opposing team and give my team an advantage.
I understand that you can solo to 60 in World of Warcraft but it's not an enjoyable experience for me, or for many others that I've talked with. You are often forced to grind mobs, sometimes for several levels before you can get to a new series of solo'able quests. I for one hate grinding, and I can't imagine anyone other than a power-leveler consumed with the race to level 60 that might actually enjoy it. Such players are less concerned with keeping their equipment up to date because they are often grinding mobs slightly below their level in order to minimize their downtime between fights.
As I've already stated, WoW can be solo'd if you follow a narrow and rather sterile path to level 60 without many of the side-features that make it such a popular game.