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Did Turbine really drop the ball with DDO?
JohnH2005
Member Posts: 25
When I heard they were making a Dungeons & Dragons MMO I almost fell over with a heart attack. It was like a dream come true. I had been playing D&D since about 1985 or so. I had been having a blast with it. I had invested HUNDREDS of dollars buying book after book after book. The "Universe" was beyond huge. There was so many different worlds to choose from. Then I was reading about DDO...
First off there was this new world called... Shoot... I forgot what it is called. Thinking now, even after playing the game in beta... Shadowhold or something... What the hell were they thinking? Forgotten Realms? Dragonlance? Heck, even Spelljammer... These are worlds that had been fleshed out for years, atlas' made, stories written, lore spun... All ready to drop into a digital world...
Then... The world... To me, and EVERY SINGLE PERSON I ever played pen and paper D&D with agrees, the game was about exploring the world, seeing new things (yes in our imagination! but still!) There was this huge vast world out there for us to explore. Not some stupid single city with a bunch of doors that hid a world... There was nothing like running around and finding some adventurer in trouble and helping them out... Then finding out they were the bad guys... Or the good guys with a really cool story and a reward to go with it. In fact, some of the best friends I met on EQ were because, I or they, were running by saw some the other in trouble and healed/help kill the creature they were facing.
Where is any of that in DDO? Where is the lore and myth of 20 years of D&D? I really think that they missed the boat. I think that if they had made a world like Oblivion set in Forgotten Realms and added more and more of the world with each expansion, they would have had a great setting. I KNOW that would not have made it great game because only gameplay can do that... But I think they kinda missed the boat on that...
Now, on top of that, I think DDO should have been about grouping. NO SOLOING... I know a LOT of people are going to hate me on that... But you know what... In a game where you are required to group, usually makes it easier to group. Instead of games like WoW where you can solo to the top level without EVER finding a group... Then find yourself without any friends/groupmates looking for a group to raid to further progress your character. In EQ I played an enchanter that could solo stuff that would normally take two or three groups to do. However, I chose to group almost all the time... Why? Because as soon as I logged on I had a half dozen tells for groups from friends. People who had grouped with me before and KNEW I was a kick ass chanter. Anyway... Back tot the subject...
Do you think more could have been done with the liscence? In fact, I will put a poll!
If you use "plz" because it is shorter than "please" I will use "no" because it is shorter than "yes."
Comments
Dang it! I hit enter instead of Tab on the poll... Anyway if you do not like any of my answers, please post your own. Sorry I messed it up...
If you use "plz" because it is shorter than "please" I will use "no" because it is shorter than "yes."
Yeah, I have to kinda agree with you there in the first statement. I think after the years of awesome play we had with PnP D&D almost anything short of a miraculous game would have fallen short of our expectations. That was one of the things I wanted to put on my poll before it was so rudely interupted... lol
Anyway, If you have ever played Neverwinter Nights online with a really good DM, that is pretty damn close. However, I am not sure any game could ever allow a "GM" character with that much power. I was a "Guide" in EQ for a while and while we could do some neat stuff no such things as "Summon this to fight them" Or "Delete this wave it is too strong" type of thing. If you could have a very dynamic game with a LOT of GM intervention then I think that would be the ultimate experience...
If you use "plz" because it is shorter than "please" I will use "no" because it is shorter than "yes."
Its difficult to live up to the D & D name. I thought the game could have been better. UI controls weren't terrible but not as easy to use as WOW. Some of the creatures in the game were cool such as the vampire and hell hounds but I thought they could have made a better game overall.
Could have done better? That's a massive understatement. As another poster in this thread said, Turbine took the easiest & lamest (eg the cheapest) path possible.
Turbine seems to specialize in quick, simple, and extremely linear settings. Why on earth they were ever given the D&D license - especially after the AC2 fiasco - is a total mystery to me.
Note: Clicking the preview button does nothing. Hopefully this post is formatted in an easy to read way, but I can't tell without posting it.
~Mysk
Bad license, terrible game.
D&D may be the oldest but it had terrible rules and core setting/worlds that I'd describe as the fast-food of fantasy (with some exceptions like Planescape or Spelljammer). So when I heard about DDO I expected nothing and got exactly that. Considering the whole of D&D license is huge and contains at least *some* good stuff, they could've tried harder. But no, they took the worst of it, and made DDO into the most restrictive, linear, uncreative MMO to date, save for Korean grinders.
World of Darkness is a great license (MMO in development), Shadowrun was one of my favorites too. Hell, even Warhammer, though I prefer the dark WFRP setting to the table-top comic one. D&D is a good one in commercial sense, obviously, but Turbine created piece of crap and wasted their chance for $$$. Lucky for them, they also got even better license that is LotR and made it into a little better game.
Dear John,
Like you I have played D&D since it early days from paper,pencil,( didn't have pens then,) & dice.
I even still have left over from those good old days, an original World of Greyhawk a5 sized softback manual, not to mention the super large AD&D 2ed hard back library, then there is the pc game collection of D&D approved games and of course all those tons of MMO & singleplayer RPG pc games, NWN1 was fantastic with the toolset editor,( you will find my name in the NWNVAULT.com site HAK archives) haven't tried NWN2 yet,( but it's on the list)
I also started the ten day trial of DDO and when I finished the trial time I went and Payed for it, why?
I'll tell you..
I found that playing solo was as much fun as playing Morrowwind 3 or 4 or gothic 3 or 4 and what I liked best was the community of players, very friendly and welcoming, within the fist hour I'd met and started playing with a team, by my third day I had been invited to join a guild,(the ANZAC's) by the end of the week, one of my other characters had also started his own guild and had members, who are still members of my guild today, (two months latter) as for stopping and helping other players, or getting help from other players, well all you got to do is ask. even the DM is a text chat a way or even voice chat with them.
as for the small port of Stormreach,( yes that's it's name) it strongly reminds me of Waterdeep,( has a lot more underneath than the eye can see) but if your looking for the forgotten realms, well this is not the game for you, because it's Eberron. this a bit like going to your fav pizza bar and finding out it a Thai food takeaway and complaining that the Thai food taste nuth'n like the great pizza you had ten years ago,(it's still take away, just not what you remember)
Also no game developer is ever going to put the whole of forgotten realms in a mmo game, the closest you will get is NWN series.
I'm sorry, but really think you must have played for about ten minutes or even work for some other MMo game site to give the comments about DDO that you have given, you are so completely off the mark on this one. Please do your research next time.
Remember that the role-play side of any rpg starts with you and your imagination, only a lazy role-players wants it all handed up on a silver platter and only a dumb one's don't bother to read labels and titles.
Well, let's see...
1. They are in Eberron because those other worlds are so hashed out and replayed to death. Virtually no one I know, other than people who don't actually play this game, want to be playing another, tired, forgotten realms game.
2. You played at some different tables than I did if these huge travels across wide spaces was part of your average campaign. Typical D&D travel was "how far do you want to travel today on your way to the quest?" , "10 hours"...roll dice..."OK, nothing happens, you break for camp for the night" and then rinse and repeat. The campaigns were AT THE DUNGEONS. That's the same here. You want to explore? Great, there's huge areas like Gianthold, the Orchard of the Macabre, the Desert, etc. where you can do that, each containing several quests in their own right. If you want to do a WoW or EQ deal, where I have to literally walk for 3 hours to get to a quest...go play EQ or WoW, cause I sure as hell don't.
3. The rules and lore of 20 years ago are sitting where they were...20 years ago. New ruleset, new campaigns, thank god.
4. Blame DDO players for solo play. It wasn't launched with it, it was requested over and over and over till a minimal amount was put in. Hell, I can show you one of the first commercials for DDO and it's slogan is "Friends Don't Let Friends Play Solo"
Regardless, blaming Turbine for not choosing Forgotten Realms is just ridiculous, since it wasn't their option to choose. When dealing with Atari and/or Wizards...you get what you're given.
ANd for a couple other comments, the UI in DDO is harder to use than WoW because it's a harder game to play than WoW...thank god.
And the concept that "real" D&D should have "open PVP" just made me almost fall out of my chair.
I agree with this completely, and I could not have stated it in a better way. I echo the vehement disgust the Deacon had for this game. I was so incredibly excited for this game, and it was the largest disappointment I have ever had in terms of a media release.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Sorry Vincenz, I guess you are here for a flame fest or what ever. That is not and was not my intention. You read things into the posts that were not said or implied. Obviously a lot of people disagree with you. The poll shows it. It is even posted where the DDO Fanboi's (like you) are most likely to agree with you. They don't. Sorry.
And yes, we definately played at different tables. And, I am glad of that.
If you use "plz" because it is shorter than "please" I will use "no" because it is shorter than "yes."
This site and its posters hate every game it seems. Take a look in Vanguard. For every one poster that speaks up that likes the game ten other posters come in and flame them for liking the game. No different in here.
I'm not going to sit here and justify how much I like DDO. My only hope is people have enough common sense that if they want to really know if the game is bad or good they try the trial instead of listening to the posts on this site.
If DDO was created in any of the settings you mentioned my guess is you'd still be here aruging how Turbine got this wrong in Forgotten Realms, or they left this and that out.
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
You don't even know the name of the setting...you state you haven't played the game since beta (btw, with the last release, the content is officially double since then)...you complain about no open areas to explore and run into encounters, etc....except they have that now. You complain about it being hard to find a group...but it's not anymore post merger. This game expanded beyond a single city almost 2 years ago.
So, if you want to post this, next time buy a time machine first. Your complaints don't remotely represent the state of the game currently...which is all you were exposed to almost 2 year ago in Beta. BTW, why even write a review of a game you haven't played in 2 years???
DDO is a decent game if you have a regular gaming group. Without a regular group, you are PUGing or soloing [of the two I vastly prefer solo]. I think Turbine heard this and added the solo options. The place where it sucks - hard - is in the repetition of quests. When in PnP did you EVER redo a quest? You may have returned to an area, but things changed when you did [unless your DM was too lazy to change things!] The other main place that it sucks is in Turbine's changing of many rules. I understand that somethings didn't seem feasible to them - resting with possible random encounters being a big one - but they could/should have done better!
Bottom line: DDO could have and should have been much better - NWN is much older yet still much better!
Here's hoping someone will develop a GURPS world [though I prefer it with Open License d20 rules
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<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
1. NWN is not an MMO. NWN was turn based. Of course they could do a more direct interpretation of D&D rules than DDO could. Regardless, DDO has consistently, in the last years, made several rules changes that fit the PnP system (evasion in heavy armor, for example).
2. Maybe all you guys dreaming of this FR MMO can keep waiting on Bioware's big MMO being released in 2009...oh that's right...I mean EA's BWAHAHAHAHAHA!.
p.s. I PUG a ton, and post merge you can find a group in under a minute regardless of level and/or time a day.
You don't even know the name of the setting...you state you haven't played the game since beta (btw, with the last release, the content is officially double since then)...you complain about no open areas to explore and run into encounters, etc....except they have that now. You complain about it being hard to find a group...but it's not anymore post merger. This game expanded beyond a single city almost 2 years ago.
So, if you want to post this, next time buy a time machine first. Your complaints don't remotely represent the state of the game currently...which is all you were exposed to almost 2 year ago in Beta. BTW, why even write a review of a game you haven't played in 2 years???
Hmm... good points, I haven't played since the opening month, and it was a disappointment to me for sure.But I suspect that even after 2 years of improvements, the core gameplay remains essentially unchanged and I doubt that I would like it.
The D & D I grew up wasn't the table top games, it was the Gold Box games made by SSI back in the early 90's. I like the concept of grouping, but only if I can control all the players in the group like I did back then....the current game is closer to the tabletop version...which never appealed to me (since it meant with dealing with other humans... something I generally tend to avoid)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
LOL...no offense bro, but you're not looking for an MMO
p.s. Instead of another reply, to the breakables guy below this. Yet another "I played for a week" chimes in...because I don't know anyone who spends much time breaking clay pots outside of their trial period. It's designed as an easy way to pick up a couple potions, collectibles, and spare change at like level 1-3.
Do you remember this scenerio in the old PnP games?
DM: You enter the dungeon.
Player: Ok, I will smash the nearest clay pot.
Dm: Ok, you smashed it, you found a few coins.
Player: ok, I smash the next pot.
Dm: Ok, you smashed it, you found a few coins.
Player: ok, I smash the next pot.
Dm: Ok, you smashed it, you found a few coins.
Player: ok, I smash the next pot.
Dm: Ok, you smashed it, you found a few coins.
Player: ok, I smash the next pot.
I sure don't...
i tried the trial for DDO, and i also played D&D back in the day, and i agree with the OP...this game could have been alot better. i mean like he said D&D was about exploring, storytelling, making a name for your characters in the world of the game, and all we got here is crappy dungeon crawls that we can go play in every other MMO. Turbine did more than drop the ball, they got lazy and should have made this game a whole lot better.
Storytelling? Well, mod 5 is the culmination of a 15 dungeon quest series with a raid, spread over 3 releases, about a lich trying to obtain god hood. Including a huge open area to explore (the Orchard of the Macabre). The original Vault of the Night continued into Gianthold, ending up being a storyline arc involving 10 quests and 3 raids in the story, as well as (again) a huge outdoor area to explore containing a half dozen "walk up" quests you have to find to complete.
Exploring? There's now 8 (I think) adventure areas, all large, complete with walk up independent quests, rare encounters, slayer bonuses, and landmark exploration experience.
Making a name? Currently there's the favor system, with several different factions that enable you to recieve various perks by achieving any of the up to 3 levels within each faction. Also overall favor unlocks drow characters, followed by 32 point builds. Titles are expected to be introduced within the next handful of months, and nothing says "I accomplished something" like wearing your dragonscale armor.
Crappy Dungeon Crawls? Show me another MMO that has quests as in depth as DDO. Most of them are "go into the forest, kill 20 bears, and bring me their pelts". Even the most basic quests in DDO have a helluva lot more to it than that and the extensive ones have huge stories behind them and large dungeons to explore.
Are you going to find all of that by playing 7 days? Probably not. It also, however, doesn't really qualify you to review a game when you've seen about 3 % of what it offers.
p.s. The Vault of the Night/Gianthold series isn't even over yet.
You don't even know the name of the setting...you state you haven't played the game since beta (btw, with the last release, the content is officially double since then)...you complain about no open areas to explore and run into encounters, etc....except they have that now. You complain about it being hard to find a group...but it's not anymore post merger. This game expanded beyond a single city almost 2 years ago.
So, if you want to post this, next time buy a time machine first. Your complaints don't remotely represent the state of the game currently...which is all you were exposed to almost 2 year ago in Beta. BTW, why even write a review of a game you haven't played in 2 years???
Does the entire game world still amount to only a single city acting as an instance hub? If so then D&D Online is still bad game and tremendous waste of the license.Adding new races and dungeons and whatnot doesn't change the fact that the game is fundamentally flawed.
Even in the beginning this wasn't the case, but even less so now. The city was the center of the DDO universe, but it wasn't the "hub" for all the quests. You could visit Three Barrel Cove...another city, and from there go on a dozen quests. You could visit the Sorrowdusk Isles and from there embark on a dozen or so quests. etc.
Now, however, it's far less the case. After teleporting to Gianthold, for example, you are now in a completely separate camp. Complete with it's own tavern, Auction House site, bank, vendors, healers, etc., it's own quest givers, and as the entrance to a giant landscape to explore. Take an airship or the caravan to the Menechtauran Desert and you'll find a complete oasis town, again complete with all of the above, and also the entry way to a very large landscape to explore. Restless Isles, same thing...Orchard of the Macabre or Necropolis, same thing.
Playing a game in beta for a week hardly qualifies anyone to review it a couple years and a dozen meaty releases later.
I did not play very long, but for me the biggest complaint is the lack of freedom. Being stuck in the same city all the time sucks.
see above.
p.s. I've seen this complaint from others who never even made it out of the harbor BTW...which is about 5% of the actual city. So they complained about being in one city...but hadn't even seen most of it.
Guild Wars. Easy.
Guild Wars. Easy.
BWAHAHAHAHA! 80% of Guild Wars are freaking delivery quests...are you kidding me???
p.s. DDO= 0% delivery quests.