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skill based MMO?
Will we ever get another skill based character MMO? I really hate being stuck into a catagory, and that is all class based character systems do. I want another game like the original SWG. Personally the setting was not the important part of the game, it was the ability to have a truely unique character. Now I understand it can be harder for developers to design a game where the characters are not all cookie-cutter copies of each other, but I think it would make for more interesting play. I have looked at EVE but I prefer a system with a skill point cap ( I at least want the illusion that I can become as skilled as the top players around). Of course I would also like this imaginary game to be nearly bug free. So if anyone has heard of such a game......
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Spellborn will be a hybrid system with base classes and the ability to choose some additional skills and manipulate them for your playstyle or preference.
Skill and Combat System
Introduction
I will kick off with introducing myself. I am Coen Neessen, the Lead Game Designer for The Chronicles of Spellborn. I have been involved with designing most of the core mechanics for TCoS and I am currently working on the skill and combat systems. In the article below I will try to explain a bit about what makes the skill and combat system for the game so special and interesting. After you have read the article, feel free to give your opinion in this forum topic.
Tactical Choices
What we are doing with the combat system in TCoS is to increase the effect of tactical choices made by the player during combat. Furthermore we think that too many games use a combat system that is too dependent on damage outcome using formulas and percentages that sort of take away player control, and can take away the joy of victory. For instance this can be especially true of a combatant who wins due to a lucky streak of critical hits, or by using a weapon which does random bonus damage.
Targeting System
One of the things that has drastically changed in our game (in relation to most other MMOGs) is the targeting system. We have removed auto attack combat where you would target an opponent and click the attack button once and wait utill the opponent is defeated. Instead you hit where you swing by actually keeping your opponent manually targeted using a targeting 'reticule' or 'crosshair'. So if you win a battle it means your choices and reactions made the difference, not dice rolls and statistics.
Skills
If the player must aim and make tactical choices during combat we don’t want to swamp the player with tons of spells and skills, at least not all at the same time. Players will have access to a large number of different skills they can use during combat, but never more then a handful are displayed on screen at any time.
The Skillbook
All the skills a character has learned so far are kept in their Skillbook. Characters learn new skills as they advance through the world of TCoS and uncover more of the past. Skills learned at the early levels of advancement are by no means weaker skills which have no use when the character becomes stronger. The damage and the effects of a skill are related to the power of the character that uses them and thus remain useful throughout the game. Which skills a character can learn depends on their chosen archetype and class. Warriors can learn melee skills such as overhead cleave while a Runemage can learn magical skills like rune blasts.
The Skilldeck
Skills in a character's Skillbook are not yet available during a fight; they must be placed into the Skilldeck to be used during combat.
The player must select several skills from the Skillbook and place these into the character's Skilldeck. The Skilldeck can be compared to a deck of cards as seen in many collectible trading card games. It consists of 6 rows (called tiers) with 5 skill-slots per row. Each skill-slot can be filled with a chosen skill, as long as the skill was learned and is available in the character's Skillbook. There are some minor rules for placing skills in the Skilldeck, but other then that the players are completely free to experiment and create their own fighting styles and tactics. Teams can coordinate the composition of their Skilldecks to increase their battle performance during large tournaments in the Quarterstone Arena.
Combat
During combat only one of the six tiers is active at any time. Combat always starts at the first tier. When a skill is executed the next tier becomes active and so on until a skill is used from the last (sixth) tier, in which case the first tier becomes active again. The time it takes before the next tier becomes activated (and thus when the next skill can be executed) depends on which skill was used and the current attack speed of the character. To execute a skill, the player selects it with the number (1 to 5) keys (this is similar to selecting a weapon in a first person shooter game) and then uses the skill with a press of their mouse button. Once used, the skill takes effect in the area where the player is aiming.
In addition to this, skills can form combo-chains. All skills have a combo type and these combo types initiate certain bonuses if they are used in the correct order. For instance a skill can be labeled as an opener, which means that it starts a possible combo-chain. A skill labeled as a finisher ends the combo-chain and will do increased damage (or provide additional positive effects for the character, or negative effects for their opponent) depending on the skills used in between the opener and the finisher.
Being prepared is just half the work. A focused Skilldeck with flexibility to adjust against various types of opponents will greatly improve a character's battle performance. Players are free to play around with their Skilldeck and adjust it as much as they like to. They can change skills at any time (except during combat) in order to defeat a previously too difficult enemy. Players will even have the option to ‘save’ different Skilldeck setups. This can be useful if players use certain team tactics with their guild or if the player wants a special Skilldeck for use during PvP encounters.
Skill and Combat System Follow-up Interview
In the forum topic linked to the article we had a lot of comments and good discussion. Many of you expressed that the system is very refreshing and will deliver some real next generation MMORPG combat, while others wondered about how this new system would work in practice. As in all forum discussions, there were also some valid questions raised. We thought it would be a good idea to strike while the iron was hot and sit down with lead game designer Coen Neessen again and let him answer the questions the community asked.
In the article you briefly talk about combo-chains. Could you tell us a bit more about them?
It’s very important to keep in mind that using combo-chains is an extra dimension to combat that enhances your efficiency. Making combos is a solo exercise. You are not dependant on other classes or players to perform them. Your opponent can break a combo though. Using combos makes PvE a bit easier (while not being necessary), but it will probably have the biggest impact on PvP competitions where every little bit extra helps. In order to make a combo-chain you have to use an opener skill, which is a normal skill on its own, with the added affect that it opens a combo-chain. Combos may consist of up to 10 skills, at which point they are automatically finished. All combo types (each skill has one) have a certain extra effect if they are used in a specific order. Using the ‘wrong’ one doesn’t stop a combo-chain, it just means you don’t get its extra effect. A choice you might be willing to make if you deem another skill more useful at that time.
The manual targeting using a ‘crosshair’ sounds a lot like FPS gameplay, is The Chronicles of Spellborn going to be an MMOFPS?
If the difference between an mmorpg and an mmofps is that the mmorpg is static and the mmofps is dynamic, it is more an mmofps then an mmorpg. Lots of the common formulas found in a traditional mmorpg have been replaced by things that can be directly influenced by the players themselves. So If the definition of an mmorpg is upgrading your character's formula sheet: it isnt an mmorpg for most part. There are attributes and statistics you can enhance or decrease which are similar to other rpg’s. Like increasing attack speed or reducing an opponent's maximum hitpoints. Other than the ‘to hit’ and 'dodge' chance, most of the statistics of other rpg’s are used in TCoS. There is still some tweaking to do with these statistics but they are not as numerous as in some other games. This has been replaced by the Skilldeck, a more visual version of statistics in a sense. It should be noted that TCoS is not a typical First Person Shooter, however it is a Role-Playing Game. In this sense, the acronym MMORPG seems to be appropriate, and is what we've chosen to call something that, above all else, is intended to simply be fun to play!
Are skills on top of normal (autoattack) combat or do you start attack mode by activating a skill on tier 1?
Skills are the only means to do an attack. There is no default autoattack. Skills can range from a normal Slash attack to a devastating Poison Eruption.
Isn’t a maximum of 5 skills at any one time too restrictive? For instance, a heal spell, a damage spell, an emergency teleport leaves only room for 2 more skills. This can make it very hard to have variation in your attacks and combo-chains.
We don’t prevent that, because we don’t need to. You won’t need a combo-chain opener skill or a finisher skill on every tier. Furthermore you can learn multiple open or finish skills. They can be totally different skills with different effects. Heals or other buffing effects are combo skills too, so they add to a combo-chain. Combo-chains are an added dimension: they enhance your battle performance but the foundation is still the skills and their effects. The setup of your Skilldeck dictates more or less your flow of moves in combat. There is no need to have a heal ready at all times because moving to the next tier happens quite quickly. Having a diverse but specialized (sort that one out and you have the balance) enough Skilldeck is key to victory. Finally there will be some rules as to how you can fill your deck. Some skills have a limited number of times they can be placed in a deck for example.
What do you do when in combat and you need a skill that is 4 tiers away?
It really is all about making a diverse enough Skilldeck. It lets you react to most situations correctly if you have a good setup. Sometimes there will be situations where you would have rather had access to a certain skill but this really isn't much different from skills with 'cooldowns' or 'refresh timers'. The Skilldeck is a bit more fast-paced and gives you relatively short windows of opportunity in which to perform the right skills. If a window of opportunity is lost you’ll have to use the next one, which will come relatively quickly since tiers come and go regularly. Again, having a heal on each tier might seem a good idea, but it really restricts your options a great deal, which leads to being too dependent on those heals instead of trying to kill your opponent. Instead you should try to work out a combat flow with heals and other buffs available at times where you know (or at least suspect) you’ll need them.
Concerning the windows of opportunity: it is important to know that you only stay at your current tier for a certain amount of time. When you wait too long the combat bar will rotate back 1 tier every time a window of opportunity has passed. This also prevents combo-chains from being built on other targets than, for instance, the planned PvP target.
We've opened a forum topic to discuss this article, so be sure to let us know what you think!
Happy hunting!
Tis' a sad day and year whenever someone posts a question asking for a skill based MMO some newbie posts links to an MMO that has Classes.
Skill Based system has nothing to do with SPELLBORN! Skill based system is what was used in Ultima Online, SWG Pre-CU, and EVE Online.
I have skills!!., I got the pale gamer class and Those have awsome skills, Like Thy can remember the UO days, and the pre-NGE skill based Swg, am in a great guild of old retarted gamers who all neglect there boy/girlfriends and lost contact whit there old family.
serious now.
There sadly almost no skill based games anymore. some new in the making tho. gota have to wait a "while"tho.
Darkfall and fallen earth are two titles to watch when looking for skill based mmo's sadly both have a fairly long wait time ahead. both titles have a slower develpment time deu being from "small"company's
the new wave of games first season 2008 ( conan,pirates of the burning sea,warhammer ) and a few more are asfar I know all are Class based.
well pirates of the burning sea aint realy class based, you do have to choise a nation or pirate "fraction"then pick one of 5 fighting style . other then that I think it be fairly "mess whit the skill points as you like"way.
there a few more games comming whit skill based systems but you gota look hard, and the fact that i dont remember there names out of my faulty brain kinda means tere not intresting enoug for me anyways .
Buttttt..
Skill based rulezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! * plays the silly gamer again*
only one i can think of is fury but thats all pvp no pve.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
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You truly don't understand how the EVE sp system works. Due to the level caps on each skill (5 is the highest) and the maximum number of skills a particular ship needs to fly (lets say 20 tops) any player can catch up to another in almost any ship.
I'm in a stealth bomber corp...and with 4.5 months played have the same exact skill set as my corp's CEO (2 years played)....who also flys a SB. Of course, he can fly a Dreadnaught, 2 different races of Battleships (I can fly only 1 race) and has lots better industrial/mining skills (i have none)
But from a SB perspective...we are identical in skills.... (but he flies them a heck of a lot better than I do)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
skill based also means a mmorpg based on someones actual skills, not stats or anything like that
If this was true then an FPS would be a 'skill based' game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS
here's a link to one of the first, read and learn
noskill based also means a mmorpg based on someones actual skills, not stats or anything like that
Geez do you ever quote anything in context?
The OP and Ryotian are talking about a skill based system, whereby a player is free to invest in the skills he or she wants to develop as his character grows and not a level based system.
And Ryotian is correct. EVE Online, SWG (pre), UO, I would also add Asheron's Call. AC1 gives you quite a bit of flexibility on how you design your character although it does have levels.
Now I see why you're quitting MMORPGs because if you cant tell the difference between UO and WoW you really need a break. Anyone that plays skill based titles know that a younger play has a chance against a veteran versus WoW where a Level 60 destroys a Level 40
Dude guild wars is what you looking for @ the moment you start you have the same chanse of winning as the best guys in the game. Except you have no clue wtf you should do.
Treu, however still an class based game.
I think waiting for Fallen Earth would be an great idea it is an game without classes and you have an skill point system. You do have levels HOWEVER they are not that importend as your skill points are unrelated to your level. Someone of level 50 can have more skill points then someone of level 70. You have to actualy aim at an person or NPC to hit them. So no SWG type of battle where you autolock. Not sure if there is recoil.
Most likely gonna be release between mid 2008, start 2009. It is worth checking out it looks good, nice story line, awsome crafting system, good combat system. Shamefully PvP areas will be capped.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that fighting does use an dice system. However it is all relate to the skills.
Darkfall fits the exact description that you wanted in a game. The only problem is that it hasn't been released yet but it should be released next year.
No, the OP asked about a MMO that was skill based instead of level based. He wants a game where he can raise specific skills instead of levels to be able to say, " I want to be a lance wielding ninja dwarf who has amazing first aid skills and can cast ice magic." While that is an extreme example it fits what he wants. He's not looking for a game that uses actual 'talent' as all games use that. If someone's better than you at a game they'll most likely beat you. So although your term worked it was not what he was looking for so stop arguing over it.
As for the OP's question. Fallen Earth was mentioned a few posts above, and if you like science fiction, especially post-apocalyptic style, then you will probably love it. I'd post a ton of info about it here but I don't have the time.
Check out the website at www.fallenearth.com. The people are friendly, and will answer all the questions you ask. Also check it out here, and at tentonhammer.
Currently: Playing EVE Online
Previous: FFXI, Dragonrealms, sad little stint in WOWland.
Awaiting: Fallen Earth, Hero''s Journey, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan.
To add to the confusion for those who seem to know little about Skill based games.
Class based games = Dev make up a name, 100 skills. 100 levels. you grind/play and you get to lvl 100 were you have all 100 skills the dev made up for the class you took.
Skill based = the dev do not make a class. They make 1000+ skills. you grind to level 100 and end up whit 100 skills you choice from the list the dev make.
The difference is if you pick the skills of the dev made them up for you.
Have you totally designed the char,the looks, skill, story(rp) ? or have the devs gave you a tool to play whit?.
In a class based game you do not make the choices, the dev done that for you.
At most they have a small tier system were you can pick a few extra skills from the branch you took.
In a skill based game you can do anything, learn any skill you wish.
The reason lots of games don't have it is because its hell to balance that.
Player gaming skill is a total other aspect , and only start to play up in the newer mmo's that have no auto-fire/lock.
So while I'm not sure why people play this way, I assure you, many do and are quite content with their progress in the game....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
i still can't seem to force myself to call EVE a "skill based" advancement system
i'm talking about character skill, not player gaming skill (i.e. twitch skills)
in EVE you don't get better at a skill by using it
you get better at a skill by waiting
So I'd call it a skill based gain-over-time advancement system, not a true skill based system.
old UO and pre-NGE SWG were true skill based advancement.. use a skill, get better at it... kind of like Oblivion too I guess....
pirates of the burning sea, fury (all PVP so a non-option for the OP), EVE online, wurm online, ultima online, asheron's call 1, dragonrealms (MUD), and soon to be dead Saga Of Ryzom
there is always elder scrolls oblivion in which im still trying to beat
I said it was a hybrid. It has classes but also gives you the option to choose some skills outside of the class structure, based on what I have read. You can also manipulate and enhance specific skills you want to emphasize while most class structure games don't offer that kind of flexibility.