Grouping and solo have their places and a mmo game has to incorporate them both.
Forced grouping has major flaws that rhyme with time sink, pretty much because unless you have a static group to depend on, you have to depend a lot on the luck factor that the classes that can work for a specific quest/grinding session appear. The more inflexible gameplay a mmo has the more the disadvantages the grouping part begins to show and the more people try to solo.
So if a company wants to so much to make grouping something that will be desired, it should focus on making gameplay more adaptable on what classes etc can be used.
Lastly WoW and EQ2 have a very good party system, which is quick and fun and yes surprise it can be complicated also. Thing is like all games to be fun they need proper players to work. And the grouping aspect relies so heavily on them that it can't be dependable to work.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
The holy trinity is a pretty nice setup for grouping actually. Without it you kind of end up with a complete lack of any kind of strategy. Everyone just DPSes in some way.
I do think that it requires a lot of time to get groups together. Time most people don't have. I enjoyed doing things like that when I was younger and new to MMOs. I'm willing to be that most new players have a higher tolerance for grouping and raiding. You just don't have the time to waste when you get older.
I think this is somewhat of a problem with all older MMO players. You just don't have the same kind of time or energy to waste on such endevors anymore. Thus you just solo and do what you can.
The rewards for grouping are deffinatly there. You get better items from grouping then soloing. The experience bonus just isn't there.
Why should a genre change fo ryou? you knew that you might have to interact with players before you got into this genre so dont give me the "well i only have an hour or so to play so i can't grou". if you have that little of time go find another genre, i did when my life became busy. so take that advice ... find antoher game.
They did find another game. For more than a decade gamers didn't play MMORPGs in any great numbers. Early MMORPGs driove away millions of gamers with the exact same attitude in the post. Meanwhile FPS, RTS, RPGs games gained player numbers and popularity.
Now MMORPG developers are tired of being the laughingstock of the gaming world and want to enter the real gaming market after WoW has shown that MMORPGs can appeal to mainstream gamers. MMORPGs are evolving out of t the niche market of hardcores who like wasting scores of hours and forced into game mechanics like grouping or raids.
I don't mind grouping. I just don't want to be forced to do it if I'm not in the mood or don't have the time. MMORPG evelopers are finally realizing what other genres figured out a long time aho - video games (including MMORPGs) should adapt to their player's desires. Players should not have to adapt themselves to a game.
At least not if you want to make one that sells. The MMORPG market has expanded to include hardcore and casual games. And to the surprise of no one, the hardcore games have the lower subscription numbers.
I'm gonna start by saying I love grouping, Its the only reason I ever played MMO's, It provided a fun and social virtual world to explore and adventure in. Now with that said I understand why most decent people don't group anymore Its pretty simple. They never experienced the way grouping was back in the day, so they just compare it how it is today. The communities in games like EQ where people had to group to lvl up ( at least at any decent rate, and impossible not to for some classes ) was good for the most part. You had to depend on your reputation or you'd never get re-invited back to the group.
Now days with MMO's being more main stream, everyone and there 10 yr. old son that the never taught any manners too is playing MMO's.( I'd like to state that I'm not against all young mmoers, just the stupid ones, MMO's used to take a bit of brains to lvl past 10 so you pretty much weeded out the stupid ones at the low end game. Now days you end up with lvl 70 morons so how). This is where the big difference is. I generally don't bother to group anymore in MMO's (and thats one of the reasons I'm not currently playing any). No one has the time so after you get the group together you start the instance/raid/xp group and then 20 min later the healer is gone and your screwed. Now you just wasted all that time getting the group and mommy told your 12 yr old cleric to go to bed. See the problem here ? so why bother? And lets just say you actually got a group and no one has to leave right away, guess what I guarentee you got at least one dumb ass or asshole or my personal favorite the I got a lvl 50 blah blah i know everything, do it my way!(this guy tends to be retarted and never stops complaineing).
So for the time being I'd rather toss in some Halo 3 and kill all the people I hate and group with the ones I like, and sad to say I have much much more social experience with this method then with any MMO I've tried in the last 5 years.
In my opinion developers should seperate MMOG's and MSOG's. Like some games are better for soloers and some for group players. Because it doesn't work when developers try to get everyone in same game with every different player types and playing styles.
100% agree with this post.
Even just make like 2 versions of the same game 1 server for soloers one server for groups would make a big difference I think.
Well to be honest the first two fantasy MMORPGs had no grouping. Yep that's right there was no in game mechanics for grouping in M59 and Ultima Online. Grouping doesn't define an MMO. I think we can all agree that both titles had a huge amount of player interaction. Most of it was ganking but what the hey.
Smart game developers will also look to real life human interaction for what to expect in a game world. Granted we don't have magic in the real world but I am talking about how people interact and that shouldn't change regardless of whether you are in cyberspace or in the real world. The EQ developers fought unsuccessfully against this in EQ. They did everything in their power to crush the soloer. And still the gaming public would not stop playing solo. Maybe we are conditioned to play solo. Just look at our real world and your real life.
Most everything I do in life I do solo. I mow my grass solo. I work on my house solo. Most all of my jobs have been largely solo with a bit of grouping. I my market experiences are mostly solo but the more important purchase usually involve a bit to interaction with other humans.
The point is that it is TOTALLY unnatural for people to have to do EVERYTHING as a group in real life and in a game world. We like to group. We can get more done as a group but the vast majority of our chores need or are more efficient if we just get to it alone.
Raids, pick up groups and regular small groups and duo are like playing in a band or being on a sports team or a party or getting together with friends for poker night. On the work end it is harvest time or building a barn. Nothing feels better than doing something with a group of friends or family but in most cases it is rare. If you are lucky in real life and in a game to have a regular group then that is great but for most folks the grouping is a treat. In the real world we are not punished for this.
Game developers have stopped punishing people for not being lucky enough to be one of the rare individuals who has a regular group. The trick for the developers is to reward group play without making it impossible for the person who groups less frequently to advance. This was a problem with EQ. Most of the content in EQ in the post PoP era was only open to folks who grouped and raided frequently. A game must provide dual development paths. Sure the solo player should have to wait a long time to get to the content the group and raids see right off if ever but there still should be something for the solo player to do while he or she waits on that rare but wonderful group experience.
Grouping became evil when children started playing MMOs. In games like WoW or EQ2, you can't find a pick-up group that will last for more than 30 minutes because little Johnny Dickhead thought it would be a good idea to LFG with dinner on the stove.
I like grouping, I really do. A group of good, smart players who can play their classes properly is an awesome thing to be a part of... but this happens so rarely anymore sometimes I'm not sure if it really used to happen.
Well to be honest the first two fantasy MMORPGs had no grouping. Yep that's right there was no in game mechanics for grouping in M59 and Ultima Online. Grouping doesn't define an MMO. I think we can all agree that both titles had a huge amount of player interaction. Most of it was ganking but what the hey.
Smart game developers will also look to real life human interaction for what to expect in a game world. Granted we don't have magic in the real world but I am talking about how people interact and that shouldn't change regardless of whether you are in cyberspace or in the real world. The EQ developers fought unsuccessfully against this in EQ. They did everything in their power to crush the soloer. And still the gaming public would not stop playing solo. Maybe we are conditioned to play solo. Just look at our real world and your real life.
Most everything I do in life I do solo. I mow my grass solo. I work on my house solo. Most all of my jobs have been largely solo with a bit of grouping. I my market experiences are mostly solo but the more important purchase usually involve a bit to interaction with other humans. The point is that it is TOTALLY unnatural for people to have to do EVERYTHING as a group in real life and in a game world. We like to group. We can get more done as a group but the vast majority of our chores need or are more efficient if we just get to it alone. Raids, pick up groups and regular small groups and duo are like playing in a band or being on a sports team or a party or getting together with friends for poker night. On the work end it is harvest time or building a barn. Nothing feels better than doing something with a group of friends or family but in most cases it is rare. If you are lucky in real life and in a game to have a regular group then that is great but for most folks the grouping is a treat. In the real world we are not punished for this. Game developers have stopped punishing people for not being lucky enough to be one of the rare individuals who has a regular group. The trick for the developers is to reward group play without making it impossible for the person who groups less frequently to advance. This was a problem with EQ. Most of the content in EQ in the post PoP era was only open to folks who grouped and raided frequently. A game must provide dual development paths. Sure the solo player should have to wait a long time to get to the content the group and raids see right off if ever but there still should be something for the solo player to do while he or she waits on that rare but wonderful group experience.
alot of what u say is pointless. EQ hadent failed on grouping, hell it wouldnt of actually been a massive game if it had failed at grouping. for the fact that it was absicly HC grouping for the first 2 yrs or so and it did better then it ever had. EQ never tryed to crush soloers...heck they basicly tuned to them after a while,so i dont get where ur goin w/ that.I n real life, yah u do things "solo" but 90a% of what u really do is for a "group effort" or for other ppl. do your efforts at work go twords you..or twords the whole compony effort of interacting? how about everything in life, marrige is a permanate and long group effort 24/7. family is a group effort, you didnt do choirs or help your mom for you, you did it for the better of family/friends/community/world. ppl here are saying how soloing needs to be either completely seperated or be a very small option (to the point were you dont get alot done, more of its somthing small to do while LFP, and making u want to group to actually get up the ranks).
Grouping became evil when children started playing MMOs. In games like WoW or EQ2, you can't find a pick-up group that will last for more than 30 minutes because little Johnny Dickhead thought it would be a good idea to LFG with dinner on the stove. I like grouping, I really do. A group of good, smart players who can play their classes properly is an awesome thing to be a part of... but this happens so rarely anymore sometimes I'm not sure if it really used to happen.
i hafta agree w/ yah 100% there, EQ1 didnt exactly have any kiddies, it was too complicated and parents probly didnt wanan get into monthly fees/didnt approve of it. i think WoW and stuff brought that unholy crowd here and we HC MMO ppl shall pay for a very long time, until the HC fad comes back....
I mean seriously when did having to interact with other players become the work of the devil? Every game forum i go to there is usually a faction that wants EVERYTHING solo and if they actually have to form a group to get something wrong they pout and say they won't play the game. I see it tabula rasa as of late, .... "i can't do this elite mission solo ... I die too much i wont play if this change". god get out of your diaper you whiney B****. Why should a genre change fo ryou? you knew that you might have to interact with players before you got into this genre so dont give me the "well i only have an hour or so to play so i can't grou". if you have that little of time go find another genre, i did when my life became busy. Thats like me going to a FPS forum and saying "well my reflexes such and my hand eye coordination is off so can you make this game turned base so i can compete." they would tell me to go find another game. so take that advice ... find antoher game.
I tend to think of the question as, "when did the work of the devil become interacting with others?"
As others said, the early games had no game mechanics for grouping. However, we still "grouped," but not because there was any mechanical advantage from the combat engine to do so. We did it because we wanted to roleplay with other characters, and be able to come away from the experience with stories of chance encounters.
In those days it never mattered if the fellow next to you was in your guild, or on TS/Vent, or was the class/build you needed to do the Onyxia chain. We took people as they were, and did things because we wanted to do it.
These days though, we've become far too picky with who we will and will not group with. Our tolerance for people who use a different voice program than we use (or no voice program) is small. Our tolerance for silly, naiive, roleplaying has become small. Our tolerance for "wasted time" has become small.
Therefore, is it any surprise that the group content has become small in these games? We simply no longer have the tolerance to take people as they are like we used to.
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People don't want to be able to solo elites but they do wan't to be able to log into a game & start playing right away , they don't want to have to spend 10-60 min trying to find certain people that are on the same group quest your on One of the problems with MMOs is people play are different times & pace , lets look at LOTRO for example ? In the first month they had lots of players around the same levels all doing the same quests so grouping was fun because you didn't have to spend 30 min looking for one , cut to now & log into any zone & the population is maybe 10 people per zone & how many of them are wanting to do the same thing .. this goes for EQ2 , Vanguard , even WOW all gamer are going to suffer from the same thing lack of players wanting to do the same group quests at the same time your wanting to do it ..
Then you get the groups where people log half way thru or leave when a better invite comes along or my Favorite , sorry guys Guild needs me to raid .. all these things and many more make grouping frustrating & soloing fun
How do they fix this ? No idea , maybe make groups smaller ? 3 players or maybe make NPC hireable ? or how about no mater what part of a quest your on players can join & complete that part then go back & do they parts they haven't done later .
One of the unfortunate disadvantages of a level based game.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
man to have MMOslike they used to liek u described. were u grouped to group even though u didnt need to/couldnt. thats what MMOs were tuely about. but nowadays its so diffrent it changed the genre completely. bleh the old days.....miss um...
damn another post made me think. WoW's success has bolstered the idea that grouping really isn't needed anymore in mmos and comes second-fiddle to providing a good solo game. This means in turn that new mmorpg developers won't see grouping as a priority now and concentrate on the solo. (I know WoW has grouping at the endgame, buts its success is more concetrated surely at 1-60 where soloing can be the majority activity for a lot of people)
yep and we can kiss the true meaning of MMO goodbye...
Yeah because the "true" meaning of an MMO is to go into countless time sinks, trying to form the incredible six that would go for xp and quests so you can enjoy a damned game.
I am sorry but that doesn't cut. A player wants to be able to solo, duo, trio and full party in his game and to have things to do when any of those things aren't available. Lazy developers that because they don't want / can't to make a game that has all those possibilities shouldn't define such games.
The only "true" meaning of MMO's is that they involve many people and as such they can be defined as "social" games. This means that their main focus must be the team but they have to give the opportunities of going outside the box. Just like in basketball you can shoot some hoops by yourself and train or play a one vs one or a 3 vs 3 and whatnot, so MMO's should start think outside the box and introduce such things.
Sadly many of those "hardcore" or "niche" MMO's although good they show many times that most developers just aren't creative but instead just follow the recipe of just giving mobs 5 million health so you will HAVE to group to beat them. No other challenge beyond that other than finding a gang of people with all the same goals as you do to do exactly that.
Heavy grouping in my opinion and from the games I have played is actually one of the fun things in an MMO if all players have that mentality. Thing is the older a game the harder the grouping becomes since it depends that players will have something in common and usually that means levels and need to xp or do specific quests. If a game gives multitude options beyond a full group you effectivelly remove that factor and actually make a fun game which can last and attract new players also constatly.
Just my 2 cents.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
u just dont get what true grouping is, liek in the old days u did things as groups to do it. nowadays groups are to be a spicific way...the best class, the best gear..specific areas...ect. the real dela was how it used to be...for the real group experience, to enjoy things, explore together and leave it that day having a kool story to share...MMOs have drasticly changed and it will probly never be like how it used to, sheer fun, feels like every game work and tryingn for perfection...
i think its the fatc that alot of ppl who can solo find it easyer then grouping and usualy skip grouping in greneral, an dmore and more ppl are doing it. the only thing they do groups for is for a specific quest that give sum somthing nice or endgame raiding.. its the option of soloing SO WELL that makes it lame.
Soloing is nice because it requires no setup. Just get up and charge into the action. I have a friend that plays another game while waiting for a group in FFXI. He obviously has to dedicate a large amount of time to playing because he can engage in two separate game sessions (the session spent waiting for a group, and then the session once the group is formed). This is a very hardcore style of play, and as we all know, it is a niche audience.
Mass appeal comes from non-stop action. Letting people actually play the game instead of just wait. And wait. Then play for an hour and find out someone has to leave. Most people want to jump in for 2 hours and get something done. Most MMOs simply cannot support grouping. "Massive" means there's all of 3,000 players on the same server. Half of which are on a different "side". 50% of them are at max level, and couldn't care one whit about levelling up. The remaining 90% of which are all different levels than yourself. This leaves 75 people you can group with, assuming they're in the same area, doing the same quests. If you're not playing during prime time, you're screwed. Tack on the travel time it takes for everyone to get to the same area and you have yourself a very difficult environment to group in.
Guild Wars did away with sharding and nearly eliminated the level gap problem. People are herded into a relatively small number of areas for doing the "big" quests. Thus, grouping is easy. Unfortunately there isn't any spontaneous grouping and the solo content is woefully inadequate (it practically requires playing an RTS just to get the NPCs to react remotely intelligently). And character advancement is very shallow as well. At the very least it made grouping easy to do while still being somewhat casual.
I tend to think of the question as, "when did the work of the devil become interacting with others?" As others said, the early games had no game mechanics for grouping. However, we still "grouped," but not because there was any mechanical advantage from the combat engine to do so. We did it because we wanted to roleplay with other characters, and be able to come away from the experience with stories of chance encounters. In those days it never mattered if the fellow next to you was in your guild, or on TS/Vent, or was the class/build you needed to do the Onyxia chain. We took people as they were, and did things because we wanted to do it. These days though, we've become far too picky with who we will and will not group with. Our tolerance for people who use a different voice program than we use (or no voice program) is small. Our tolerance for silly, naiive, roleplaying has become small. Our tolerance for "wasted time" has become small. Therefore, is it any surprise that the group content has become small in these games? We simply no longer have the tolerance to take people as they are like we used to.
The real problem here is depend on the penatly of the game when failure not because it is evil.
Games like worlds of warcrafts offer no penatly to death. People just come and die without any hesiatation. Hence solo is easy as the players will just test out whether they can take it without waste even an ouce of time.
Games like FFXI is completely different, where death reduce experience which is hard to earn. People just can't get around the idea to solo when death mean xp loss. FFXI have alot of soloing contents. People soloing things left and right after people tried it out.
Now a day people soloing GODS soloing or even in 2-3 instead of the 18 man alliance. Where jobs can be taking up to 30 soloing as well by many others.
The real problem here is depend on the penatly of the game when failure not because it is evil. Games like worlds of warcrafts offer no penatly to death. People just come and die without any hesiatation. Hence solo is easy as the players will just test out whether they can take it without waste even an ouce of time. Games like FFXI is completely different, where death reduce experience which is hard to earn. People just can't get around the idea to solo when death mean xp loss. FFXI have alot of soloing contents. People soloing things left and right after people tried it out. Now a day people soloing GODS soloing or even in 2-3 instead of the 18 man alliance. Where jobs can be taking up to 30 soloing as well by many others.
I don't think an XP penalty is really the reason, if someone wants to solo he will no matter what, he'll just play more efficiently and cautiously and in general being better prepared as far as items go and what he will solo. The XP loss as far as gameplay of FF is concerned is implemented for different reasons and not that much to enforce or reduce soloing or grouping. Also I want to add that in many cases xp penalty is worse for making a group. For example when I solo with my pld if I die while doing that I will just suck it up and continue and cover the xp loss i got, no biggie no fuss. A party wipe will make the party disband because noone wants to take the penalty or lose any more time hence a huge time sink of time and effort.So yes that can be considered an "evil" of grouping.
Thing is FF is not the best example to be used in such cases. The content as far as solo is concerned is mediocre at the very best considering risk VS reward and soloing to 30 is only achieved by very specific jobs which you'll notice a good portion of the players that do them already have a couple max level ones. That's cause the whole gameplay is designed against solo of any kind so only those that can fund long term such endeavors can actually do something. Solo in FF has been achieved only because most of the players already have high level jobs and throw around enough gil to circumvent the problems that grouping has.
As for the GOD that people solo or duo-trio, you'll have to check the items that those players have. FF is not different than WoW in that matter because the items you have define what you can do. Just where purple items are just replace them with rare/ex.
And those high class items as in WoW can only be obtained through Groups or Raids and only very few of them bought.
I am not the biggest supporter of solo but neither of grouping. Both have their evils and both have many positive things that an MMO can gain a lot of. Grouping should be encouraged through rewards and achievements not silly lazy methods of the "xp boomstick". A good example of grouping that is encouraged but not enforced in FF is for example the Chains of Promathia bosses. If you win you can see a very good story unfolding plus get some nice items (although usually they are not useful for the main job that much) but you don't lose XP from dieing. The time you lost to get there and the consumables you spent to try and win are more than enough motivation to NOT die. XP penalties in most games are only there 1) to add a time sink 2) or to prevent very specific gameplay issues.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
I soloed a lot in EQ. Even when it first came out. The community wasn't as great as people make it out to be.
Regardless of weather or not it was adults or children there were KSers all over the place and people trying to take all your loot through the /consent to drap your corpse. People were pulling trains on you right and left. While I had fun grouping sometimes I never felt a desire to group all of the time and it didn't make me want to group more in WoW when it came out.
When WoW came out I was pretty happy because they added many of the things I felt was wrong with EQ. Primarily every class could solo, camping mobs was reduced with instanced dungeons, and there were lots of quests to distract you from the grind. I actually think I may have grouped more in WoW for the instances then I did in EQ.
Grouping became evil when MMos tried removing the Grind. My foindest memories are of my EQ days getting a group and going to some cool zone and setting up a camp, and having someone pull mobs over and over back to that camp for the group to kill. thats where a lot of the socialization happened for me. I dont see that anymore in mmos. You group now for specific quests or to kill a specific mob ,then everyone goes back to their own seperate thing.
holy crap, i never even thought of that, but I think you are right. One of the foundest memories in lineage 2 was when i was in a group with 2 melee classes and 2 caster classes, the fighters just kept clearing stuff out and myself and the other caster just kept healing, it was actually quite fun and it was a situation where you didn't want to go to bed cause you had a good thing going. In WoW it's usually I'll group until my quest is over or until we clear this dungeon, but in Lineage it was we got a good thing going where's the coffee/red bull/speed.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Instead of Massively Multiplayer RPG, you just have a bunch of people soloing a Massively Singleplayer RPG.
UO and EQ in its prime were MMORPG's.
Now-a-days all you have is LOTRo and Vanguard- which are MSORPG.
Getting a group is so incredibly difficult, even WITH a big population.
/tell Person1, "Want to group?"
Person 1 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
/tell Person2, "Want to group?"
Person 2 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
/tell Person3, "Want to group?"
Person 3 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
/tell Person4, "Want to group?"
Person 4 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
That's what MMO's are like now. If you DO get a group, within 5 minutes one person has to leave and then everyone follows (So they can go solo some more.)
I like to be able to solo the mundane stuff you know but when your doing something 'heroic' like scaling a massive set of caves full of god knows what then I expect the need to group. The idea games force you to do everything together even just go into someone's basement to clean out some rats is just ridiculous. Being able to solo enough to test out new stragedies on how to play your toon effectively, level to some modest extent (if you group you kill more so i'd expect leveling to be slightly faster), and just being able to lonely wanderer style around the world for crafting or exploration purposes shouldnt' require a group unless you plan to go somewhere really dangerous. I look for these sort of things in any MMO I play.
Games where leveling is TOO easy by solo, where only the FUN stuff is at the END of the game, where guilding is required if you want to do anything, or games where you absolutely HAVE to group no matter what turn me off alot. I expected alot of grouping in DDO since its D&D and you always play the PnP in groups but I admit as of late the game is starting to turn me off, I get tired of grouping sometimes and just want some options to what to do with my play time. Its good enough though to keep me happy for now though.
I honestly can't stand grouping with someone who doesn't even try to play their class and just rely on everyone else to do the work, thats when forced grouping becomes annoying. Or grouping with people who have no interest in working as a team and just bullrush a head without letting the team know. God I hate grouping with people like that.
Grouping is Evil when its forced at all times for EVERYTHING and Grouping is Evil when it means dealing with non team players.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Comments
right. so all it'd take is giving a bonus for grouping or teamwork. now for someone to implement it.
Grouping and solo have their places and a mmo game has to incorporate them both.
Forced grouping has major flaws that rhyme with time sink, pretty much because unless you have a static group to depend on, you have to depend a lot on the luck factor that the classes that can work for a specific quest/grinding session appear. The more inflexible gameplay a mmo has the more the disadvantages the grouping part begins to show and the more people try to solo.
So if a company wants to so much to make grouping something that will be desired, it should focus on making gameplay more adaptable on what classes etc can be used.
Lastly WoW and EQ2 have a very good party system, which is quick and fun and yes surprise it can be complicated also. Thing is like all games to be fun they need proper players to work. And the grouping aspect relies so heavily on them that it can't be dependable to work.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
The holy trinity is a pretty nice setup for grouping actually. Without it you kind of end up with a complete lack of any kind of strategy. Everyone just DPSes in some way.
I do think that it requires a lot of time to get groups together. Time most people don't have. I enjoyed doing things like that when I was younger and new to MMOs. I'm willing to be that most new players have a higher tolerance for grouping and raiding. You just don't have the time to waste when you get older.
I think this is somewhat of a problem with all older MMO players. You just don't have the same kind of time or energy to waste on such endevors anymore. Thus you just solo and do what you can.
The rewards for grouping are deffinatly there. You get better items from grouping then soloing. The experience bonus just isn't there.
They did find another game. For more than a decade gamers didn't play MMORPGs in any great numbers. Early MMORPGs driove away millions of gamers with the exact same attitude in the post. Meanwhile FPS, RTS, RPGs games gained player numbers and popularity.
Now MMORPG developers are tired of being the laughingstock of the gaming world and want to enter the real gaming market after WoW has shown that MMORPGs can appeal to mainstream gamers. MMORPGs are evolving out of t the niche market of hardcores who like wasting scores of hours and forced into game mechanics like grouping or raids.
I don't mind grouping. I just don't want to be forced to do it if I'm not in the mood or don't have the time. MMORPG evelopers are finally realizing what other genres figured out a long time aho - video games (including MMORPGs) should adapt to their player's desires. Players should not have to adapt themselves to a game.
At least not if you want to make one that sells. The MMORPG market has expanded to include hardcore and casual games. And to the surprise of no one, the hardcore games have the lower subscription numbers.
I'm gonna start by saying I love grouping, Its the only reason I ever played MMO's, It provided a fun and social virtual world to explore and adventure in. Now with that said I understand why most decent people don't group anymore Its pretty simple. They never experienced the way grouping was back in the day, so they just compare it how it is today. The communities in games like EQ where people had to group to lvl up ( at least at any decent rate, and impossible not to for some classes ) was good for the most part. You had to depend on your reputation or you'd never get re-invited back to the group.
Now days with MMO's being more main stream, everyone and there 10 yr. old son that the never taught any manners too is playing MMO's.( I'd like to state that I'm not against all young mmoers, just the stupid ones, MMO's used to take a bit of brains to lvl past 10 so you pretty much weeded out the stupid ones at the low end game. Now days you end up with lvl 70 morons so how). This is where the big difference is. I generally don't bother to group anymore in MMO's (and thats one of the reasons I'm not currently playing any). No one has the time so after you get the group together you start the instance/raid/xp group and then 20 min later the healer is gone and your screwed. Now you just wasted all that time getting the group and mommy told your 12 yr old cleric to go to bed. See the problem here ? so why bother? And lets just say you actually got a group and no one has to leave right away, guess what I guarentee you got at least one dumb ass or asshole or my personal favorite the I got a lvl 50 blah blah i know everything, do it my way!(this guy tends to be retarted and never stops complaineing).
So for the time being I'd rather toss in some Halo 3 and kill all the people I hate and group with the ones I like, and sad to say I have much much more social experience with this method then with any MMO I've tried in the last 5 years.
Even just make like 2 versions of the same game 1 server for soloers one server for groups would make a big difference I think.
Well to be honest the first two fantasy MMORPGs had no grouping. Yep that's right there was no in game mechanics for grouping in M59 and Ultima Online. Grouping doesn't define an MMO. I think we can all agree that both titles had a huge amount of player interaction. Most of it was ganking but what the hey.
Smart game developers will also look to real life human interaction for what to expect in a game world. Granted we don't have magic in the real world but I am talking about how people interact and that shouldn't change regardless of whether you are in cyberspace or in the real world. The EQ developers fought unsuccessfully against this in EQ. They did everything in their power to crush the soloer. And still the gaming public would not stop playing solo. Maybe we are conditioned to play solo. Just look at our real world and your real life.
Most everything I do in life I do solo. I mow my grass solo. I work on my house solo. Most all of my jobs have been largely solo with a bit of grouping. I my market experiences are mostly solo but the more important purchase usually involve a bit to interaction with other humans.
The point is that it is TOTALLY unnatural for people to have to do EVERYTHING as a group in real life and in a game world. We like to group. We can get more done as a group but the vast majority of our chores need or are more efficient if we just get to it alone.
Raids, pick up groups and regular small groups and duo are like playing in a band or being on a sports team or a party or getting together with friends for poker night. On the work end it is harvest time or building a barn. Nothing feels better than doing something with a group of friends or family but in most cases it is rare. If you are lucky in real life and in a game to have a regular group then that is great but for most folks the grouping is a treat. In the real world we are not punished for this.
Game developers have stopped punishing people for not being lucky enough to be one of the rare individuals who has a regular group. The trick for the developers is to reward group play without making it impossible for the person who groups less frequently to advance. This was a problem with EQ. Most of the content in EQ in the post PoP era was only open to folks who grouped and raided frequently. A game must provide dual development paths. Sure the solo player should have to wait a long time to get to the content the group and raids see right off if ever but there still should be something for the solo player to do while he or she waits on that rare but wonderful group experience.
Grouping became evil when children started playing MMOs. In games like WoW or EQ2, you can't find a pick-up group that will last for more than 30 minutes because little Johnny Dickhead thought it would be a good idea to LFG with dinner on the stove.
I like grouping, I really do. A group of good, smart players who can play their classes properly is an awesome thing to be a part of... but this happens so rarely anymore sometimes I'm not sure if it really used to happen.
alot of what u say is pointless. EQ hadent failed on grouping, hell it wouldnt of actually been a massive game if it had failed at grouping. for the fact that it was absicly HC grouping for the first 2 yrs or so and it did better then it ever had. EQ never tryed to crush soloers...heck they basicly tuned to them after a while,so i dont get where ur goin w/ that.I n real life, yah u do things "solo" but 90a% of what u really do is for a "group effort" or for other ppl. do your efforts at work go twords you..or twords the whole compony effort of interacting? how about everything in life, marrige is a permanate and long group effort 24/7. family is a group effort, you didnt do choirs or help your mom for you, you did it for the better of family/friends/community/world. ppl here are saying how soloing needs to be either completely seperated or be a very small option (to the point were you dont get alot done, more of its somthing small to do while LFP, and making u want to group to actually get up the ranks).
i hafta agree w/ yah 100% there, EQ1 didnt exactly have any kiddies, it was too complicated and parents probly didnt wanan get into monthly fees/didnt approve of it. i think WoW and stuff brought that unholy crowd here and we HC MMO ppl shall pay for a very long time, until the HC fad comes back....
I tend to think of the question as, "when did the work of the devil become interacting with others?"
As others said, the early games had no game mechanics for grouping. However, we still "grouped," but not because there was any mechanical advantage from the combat engine to do so. We did it because we wanted to roleplay with other characters, and be able to come away from the experience with stories of chance encounters.
In those days it never mattered if the fellow next to you was in your guild, or on TS/Vent, or was the class/build you needed to do the Onyxia chain. We took people as they were, and did things because we wanted to do it.
These days though, we've become far too picky with who we will and will not group with. Our tolerance for people who use a different voice program than we use (or no voice program) is small. Our tolerance for silly, naiive, roleplaying has become small. Our tolerance for "wasted time" has become small.
Therefore, is it any surprise that the group content has become small in these games? We simply no longer have the tolerance to take people as they are like we used to.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
One of the unfortunate disadvantages of a level based game.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
man to have MMOslike they used to liek u described. were u grouped to group even though u didnt need to/couldnt. thats what MMOs were tuely about. but nowadays its so diffrent it changed the genre completely. bleh the old days.....miss um...
damn another post made me think. WoW's success has bolstered the idea that grouping really isn't needed anymore in mmos and comes second-fiddle to providing a good solo game. This means in turn that new mmorpg developers won't see grouping as a priority now and concentrate on the solo.
(I know WoW has grouping at the endgame, buts its success is more concetrated surely at 1-60 where soloing can be the majority activity for a lot of people)
yep and we can kiss the true meaning of MMO goodbye...
I am sorry but that doesn't cut. A player wants to be able to solo, duo, trio and full party in his game and to have things to do when any of those things aren't available. Lazy developers that because they don't want / can't to make a game that has all those possibilities shouldn't define such games.
The only "true" meaning of MMO's is that they involve many people and as such they can be defined as "social" games. This means that their main focus must be the team but they have to give the opportunities of going outside the box. Just like in basketball you can shoot some hoops by yourself and train or play a one vs one or a 3 vs 3 and whatnot, so MMO's should start think outside the box and introduce such things.
Sadly many of those "hardcore" or "niche" MMO's although good they show many times that most developers just aren't creative but instead just follow the recipe of just giving mobs 5 million health so you will HAVE to group to beat them. No other challenge beyond that other than finding a gang of people with all the same goals as you do to do exactly that.
Heavy grouping in my opinion and from the games I have played is actually one of the fun things in an MMO if all players have that mentality. Thing is the older a game the harder the grouping becomes since it depends that players will have something in common and usually that means levels and need to xp or do specific quests. If a game gives multitude options beyond a full group you effectivelly remove that factor and actually make a fun game which can last and attract new players also constatly.
Just my 2 cents.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
u just dont get what true grouping is, liek in the old days u did things as groups to do it. nowadays groups are to be a spicific way...the best class, the best gear..specific areas...ect. the real dela was how it used to be...for the real group experience, to enjoy things, explore together and leave it that day having a kool story to share...MMOs have drasticly changed and it will probly never be like how it used to, sheer fun, feels like every game work and tryingn for perfection...
i think its the fatc that alot of ppl who can solo find it easyer then grouping and usualy skip grouping in greneral, an dmore and more ppl are doing it. the only thing they do groups for is for a specific quest that give sum somthing nice or endgame raiding.. its the option of soloing SO WELL that makes it lame.
Soloing is nice because it requires no setup. Just get up and charge into the action. I have a friend that plays another game while waiting for a group in FFXI. He obviously has to dedicate a large amount of time to playing because he can engage in two separate game sessions (the session spent waiting for a group, and then the session once the group is formed). This is a very hardcore style of play, and as we all know, it is a niche audience.
Mass appeal comes from non-stop action. Letting people actually play the game instead of just wait. And wait. Then play for an hour and find out someone has to leave. Most people want to jump in for 2 hours and get something done. Most MMOs simply cannot support grouping. "Massive" means there's all of 3,000 players on the same server. Half of which are on a different "side". 50% of them are at max level, and couldn't care one whit about levelling up. The remaining 90% of which are all different levels than yourself. This leaves 75 people you can group with, assuming they're in the same area, doing the same quests. If you're not playing during prime time, you're screwed. Tack on the travel time it takes for everyone to get to the same area and you have yourself a very difficult environment to group in.
Guild Wars did away with sharding and nearly eliminated the level gap problem. People are herded into a relatively small number of areas for doing the "big" quests. Thus, grouping is easy. Unfortunately there isn't any spontaneous grouping and the solo content is woefully inadequate (it practically requires playing an RTS just to get the NPCs to react remotely intelligently). And character advancement is very shallow as well. At the very least it made grouping easy to do while still being somewhat casual.
Here here!
The real problem here is depend on the penatly of the game when failure not because it is evil.
Games like worlds of warcrafts offer no penatly to death. People just come and die without any hesiatation. Hence solo is easy as the players will just test out whether they can take it without waste even an ouce of time.
Games like FFXI is completely different, where death reduce experience which is hard to earn. People just can't get around the idea to solo when death mean xp loss. FFXI have alot of soloing contents. People soloing things left and right after people tried it out.
Now a day people soloing GODS soloing or even in 2-3 instead of the 18 man alliance. Where jobs can be taking up to 30 soloing as well by many others.
none
I don't think an XP penalty is really the reason, if someone wants to solo he will no matter what, he'll just play more efficiently and cautiously and in general being better prepared as far as items go and what he will solo. The XP loss as far as gameplay of FF is concerned is implemented for different reasons and not that much to enforce or reduce soloing or grouping. Also I want to add that in many cases xp penalty is worse for making a group. For example when I solo with my pld if I die while doing that I will just suck it up and continue and cover the xp loss i got, no biggie no fuss. A party wipe will make the party disband because noone wants to take the penalty or lose any more time hence a huge time sink of time and effort.So yes that can be considered an "evil" of grouping.
Thing is FF is not the best example to be used in such cases. The content as far as solo is concerned is mediocre at the very best considering risk VS reward and soloing to 30 is only achieved by very specific jobs which you'll notice a good portion of the players that do them already have a couple max level ones. That's cause the whole gameplay is designed against solo of any kind so only those that can fund long term such endeavors can actually do something. Solo in FF has been achieved only because most of the players already have high level jobs and throw around enough gil to circumvent the problems that grouping has.
As for the GOD that people solo or duo-trio, you'll have to check the items that those players have. FF is not different than WoW in that matter because the items you have define what you can do. Just where purple items are just replace them with rare/ex.
And those high class items as in WoW can only be obtained through Groups or Raids and only very few of them bought.
I am not the biggest supporter of solo but neither of grouping. Both have their evils and both have many positive things that an MMO can gain a lot of. Grouping should be encouraged through rewards and achievements not silly lazy methods of the "xp boomstick". A good example of grouping that is encouraged but not enforced in FF is for example the Chains of Promathia bosses. If you win you can see a very good story unfolding plus get some nice items (although usually they are not useful for the main job that much) but you don't lose XP from dieing. The time you lost to get there and the consumables you spent to try and win are more than enough motivation to NOT die. XP penalties in most games are only there 1) to add a time sink 2) or to prevent very specific gameplay issues.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
I soloed a lot in EQ. Even when it first came out. The community wasn't as great as people make it out to be.
Regardless of weather or not it was adults or children there were KSers all over the place and people trying to take all your loot through the /consent to drap your corpse. People were pulling trains on you right and left. While I had fun grouping sometimes I never felt a desire to group all of the time and it didn't make me want to group more in WoW when it came out.
When WoW came out I was pretty happy because they added many of the things I felt was wrong with EQ. Primarily every class could solo, camping mobs was reduced with instanced dungeons, and there were lots of quests to distract you from the grind. I actually think I may have grouped more in WoW for the instances then I did in EQ.
holy crap, i never even thought of that, but I think you are right. One of the foundest memories in lineage 2 was when i was in a group with 2 melee classes and 2 caster classes, the fighters just kept clearing stuff out and myself and the other caster just kept healing, it was actually quite fun and it was a situation where you didn't want to go to bed cause you had a good thing going. In WoW it's usually I'll group until my quest is over or until we clear this dungeon, but in Lineage it was we got a good thing going where's the coffee/red bull/speed.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
MMO's aren't MMO's anymore.
Instead of Massively Multiplayer RPG, you just have a bunch of people soloing a Massively Singleplayer RPG.
UO and EQ in its prime were MMORPG's.
Now-a-days all you have is LOTRo and Vanguard- which are MSORPG.
Getting a group is so incredibly difficult, even WITH a big population.
/tell Person1, "Want to group?"
Person 1 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
/tell Person2, "Want to group?"
Person 2 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
/tell Person3, "Want to group?"
Person 3 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
/tell Person4, "Want to group?"
Person 4 replies, Sorry I'm solo.
That's what MMO's are like now. If you DO get a group, within 5 minutes one person has to leave and then everyone follows (So they can go solo some more.)
I like to be able to solo the mundane stuff you know but when your doing something 'heroic' like scaling a massive set of caves full of god knows what then I expect the need to group. The idea games force you to do everything together even just go into someone's basement to clean out some rats is just ridiculous. Being able to solo enough to test out new stragedies on how to play your toon effectively, level to some modest extent (if you group you kill more so i'd expect leveling to be slightly faster), and just being able to lonely wanderer style around the world for crafting or exploration purposes shouldnt' require a group unless you plan to go somewhere really dangerous. I look for these sort of things in any MMO I play.
Games where leveling is TOO easy by solo, where only the FUN stuff is at the END of the game, where guilding is required if you want to do anything, or games where you absolutely HAVE to group no matter what turn me off alot. I expected alot of grouping in DDO since its D&D and you always play the PnP in groups but I admit as of late the game is starting to turn me off, I get tired of grouping sometimes and just want some options to what to do with my play time. Its good enough though to keep me happy for now though.
I honestly can't stand grouping with someone who doesn't even try to play their class and just rely on everyone else to do the work, thats when forced grouping becomes annoying. Or grouping with people who have no interest in working as a team and just bullrush a head without letting the team know. God I hate grouping with people like that.
Grouping is Evil when its forced at all times for EVERYTHING and Grouping is Evil when it means dealing with non team players.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!