Sorrey Sovren again I have to disagree. I did play games of old, not meridiant 59 type old but I've been playing since just after the Kunark expansion in EQ.
Grinding never really meant killing mobs, it always meant something that was boring, you know... a grind. It just so happens that in that game thats what you did most of the time was just kill mobs.
Venge Sunsoar
W/E is all I can say to that...you keep your meaning and the rest of the interwebz will keep ours. Easy as that. Like I said, take a look at how the word is used in what context around age old forums and text that are still around when referring to this subject. It's plain as day. Even on this site also. I repeat...LEARN YOUR LINGO.
*EDIT* OK, I just looked the word up on several sites referring to MMO SLANG and pretty much across the board they all list GRINDING AS KILLING CREATURES for XP. LOL... even wiki has it listed this way (read beyond the first line which talks about how it's used in MMORPGS) which is really nothing to be relied upon , but may be an indicator. OOPS....even the terminology sections for EQ, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, SWG, and VANGUARD has grinding down as killing creatures for XP.
Like I said...the literal meaning can be applied to anything, but when applied to MMOs it's lingo. You never hear anyone say "OOH, I'm Quest grinding" do you? You do hear however rep grinds = killing somemone for something. Title grinds in guildwars is or has been the only time I have heard that word applied as such something different than the usual. Being that not all titles in that game require killing...most do, however a few do not.
*EDIT 2* I'm finished with this...it's pointless. It actually took a few minutes to realize that I actually really don't care about this and no point in going any further for me especially when there are bigger issues for me to be worried about on the planet.
See thats the thing. You do hear about quest grinding. In EQ2, WoW, and LOTR especially you hear about quest grinding over and over again.
The only reason you think that grinding referred to killing mobs over and over again was because thats all there was to do. Now that there is millions of qeusts you hear quest grinding. so again grinding is just repetitive activity that you don't like.
So You need to learn the meaning behind the words.
Venge Sunsoar
Ok I said I was done, but you said I need to learn the meaning behind the words, so now I back. Not once have I ever heard the term quest grinding in all the years I've played MMO's. Even in Lord of the rings where questing is pretty much the foundation of gaining any xp. Certainly more than killing mobs.
See...what I gather from you disagreeing with me is that you think I'm wrong. BUT EVEN YOU STATE THAT PEOPLE APPLIED THE WORD GRINDING TO KILLING MOBS BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THERE WAS TO DO...supposedly, I remember questing being in quite a few older MMO's.
How many times do I have to repeat this, is it not getting through to you? THE LITERAL DEFINITION OF THE WORD GRIND, GRINDING CAN BE APPLIED TO MANY THINGS IN OR OUT OF A GAME. But usually when it comes to terminology associated with MMO's it's referring to killing mobs for the reason you yourself said, because it was all there was to do. How do you think associations start.
Slang like cool when referring to certain things doesn't mean it's cold. What planet are you from?
I am fully objectionable when it comes to this as I actually do see where it can be used in many areas. But you disagreeing with me is just coming off as you don't see why my view is this way and that I am just wrong.
So then let me ask you this...When someone mentions grind in a game to you, what part of the game do you think they are speaking of? If I were thinking questing in this instance, most times I would be wrong.
*EDIT* That said, I see where a few of your points are coming from, it doesn't seem that you see mine. Now I'm finished with this.
NO that is not the literal definition of the word. The literal definition of the word, by your own source is a pejorative term in computer gaming meaning repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay. You used wiki, here is the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding
or here
The term Grinding is the act of doing something repetitively, such as killing monsters or working up a trade skill. If one is grinding their levels, it usually refers to killing massive amounts of creeps, or if they grind reputation, they may be collecting items for repeatable quests for a particular faction. http://www.wowwiki.com/Grind
or here:
What has been said about level grinding -the definition of grinding being the harvesting of animals, monsters, plants, and minerals, raw materials, for various quest-giving NPCs in the game- is absolutely true, as that's all you can do to level your character so you can, indeed, perform MORE level grinding. http://www.helium.com/tm/112730/articles-series-concerning-world
or here:
This finally brings us to a definition of grinding: it's when players repeatedly perform a somewhat painful action in order to acquire an abstract reward. http://www.jzig.com/blog/design/why_we_grind.html
or on this very forum:
I noticed that "the grind", or tedious repetition in treadmill gaming, is vastly disliked by a large majority (if not all) of gamers (including myself). http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/143972
Do you get it now or should we bring in more. The application of grinding can be applied to any task but for games including MMO's it has meant boring and repetitious gameplay and boring is a state of mind.
So if you find killing mobs to be boring and repetiive than that is a grind. If you find quests to be boring and repetitive that is a grind. If you find crafting to be boring and repetitive, that is a grind.
When somone mentions a grind to me it means they are bored of some part of the gameplay. To find out what part of the gameplay they are talking about I would have to a: ask them, or b: refer to what the conversation was about (killing, crafting, mashing buttons, questing...)
Venge Sunsoar
edit: I would agree with you on that maggot, hopefully sane people dislike that though hehe.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Sorrey Sovren again I have to disagree. I did play games of old, not meridiant 59 type old but I've been playing since just after the Kunark expansion in EQ. Grinding never really meant killing mobs, it always meant something that was boring, you know... a grind. It just so happens that in that game thats what you did most of the time was just kill mobs. Venge Sunsoar
W/E is all I can say to that...you keep your meaning and the rest of the interwebz will keep ours. Easy as that. Like I said, take a look at how the word is used in what context around age old forums and text that are still around when referring to this subject. It's plain as day. Even on this site also. I repeat...LEARN YOUR LINGO. *EDIT* OK, I just looked the word up on several sites referring to MMO SLANG and pretty much across the board they all list GRINDING AS KILLING CREATURES for XP. LOL... even wiki has it listed this way (read beyond the first line which talks about how it's used in MMORPGS) which is really nothing to be relied upon , but may be an indicator. OOPS....even the terminology sections for EQ, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, SWG, and VANGUARD has grinding down as killing creatures for XP. Like I said...the literal meaning can be applied to anything, but when applied to MMOs it's lingo. You never hear anyone say "OOH, I'm Quest grinding" do you? You do hear however rep grinds = killing somemone for something. Title grinds in guildwars is or has been the only time I have heard that word applied as such something different than the usual. Being that not all titles in that game require killing...most do, however a few do not. *EDIT 2* I'm finished with this...it's pointless. It actually took a few minutes to realize that I actually really don't care about this and no point in going any further for me especially when there are bigger issues for me to be worried about on the planet.
See thats the thing. You do hear about quest grinding. In EQ2, WoW, and LOTR especially you hear about quest grinding over and over again. The only reason you think that grinding referred to killing mobs over and over again was because thats all there was to do. Now that there is millions of qeusts you hear quest grinding. so again grinding is just repetitive activity that you don't like. So You need to learn the meaning behind the words. Venge Sunsoar
Ok I said I was done, but you said I need to learn the meaning behind the words, so now I back. Not once have I ever heard the term quest grinding in all the years I've played MMO's. Even in Lord of the rings where questing is pretty much the foundation of gaining any xp. Certainly more than killing mobs. See...what I gather from you disagreeing with me is that you think I'm wrong. BUT EVEN YOU STATE THAT PEOPLE APPLIED THE WORD GRINDING TO KILLING MOBS BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THERE WAS TO DO...supposedly, I remember questing being in quite a few older MMO's. How many times do I have to repeat this, is it not getting through to you? THE LITERAL DEFINITION OF THE WORD GRIND, GRINDING CAN BE APPLIED TO MANY THINGS IN OR OUT OF A GAME. But usually when it comes to terminology associated with MMO's it's referring to killing mobs for the reason you yourself said, because it was all there was to do. How do you think associations start. Slang like cool when referring to certain things doesn't mean it's cold. What planet are you from? I am fully objectionable when it comes to this as I actually do see where it can be used in many areas. But you disagreeing with me is just coming off as you don't see why my view is this way and that I am just wrong. So then let me ask you this...When someone mentions grind in a game to you, what part of the game do you think they are speaking of? If I were thinking questing in this instance, most times I would be wrong. *EDIT* That said, I see where a few of your points are coming from, it doesn't seem that you see mine. Now I'm finished with this.
NO that is not the literal definition of the word. The literal definition of the word, by your own source is a pejorative term in computer gaming meaning repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay. You used wiki, here is the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding or here The term Grinding is the act of doing something repetitively, such as killing monsters or working up a trade skill. If one is grinding their levels, it usually refers to killing massive amounts of creeps, or if they grind reputation, they may be collecting items for repeatable quests for a particular faction. http://www.wowwiki.com/Grind or here: What has been said about level grinding -the definition of grinding being the harvesting of animals, monsters, plants, and minerals, raw materials, for various quest-giving NPCs in the game- is absolutely true, as that's all you can do to level your character so you can, indeed, perform MORE level grinding. http://www.helium.com/tm/112730/articles-series-concerning-world or here: This finally brings us to a definition of grinding: it's when players repeatedly perform a somewhat painful action in order to acquire an abstract reward. http://www.jzig.com/blog/design/why_we_grind.html or on this very forum: I noticed that "the grind", or tedious repetition in treadmill gaming, is vastly disliked by a large majority (if not all) of gamers (including myself). http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/143972 or in the very title of this thread on this forum: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/137809 Do you get it now or should we bring in more. The application of grinding can be applied to any task but for games including MMO's it has meant boring and repetitious gameplay and boring is a state of mind. So if you find killing mobs to be boring and repetiive than that is a grind. If you find quests to be boring and repetitive that is a grind. If you find crafting to be boring and repetitive, that is a grind. When somone mentions a grind to me it means they are bored of some part of the gameplay. To find out what part of the gameplay they are talking about I would have to a: ask them, or b: refer to what the conversation was about (killing, crafting, mashing buttons, questing...) Venge Sunsoar edit: I would agree with you on that maggot, hopefully sane people dislike that though hehe.
Once again....for that wiki quote....check the sentence right after that one like I told you to do when says referring to MMO's. It plainly reads: "The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content". For each example beyond that, I can find just as many supporting my claims, why don't I? Not important to me anymore.
How about you read the terminology/ Glossary sections in each of the handbooks for any of those games. They read something like this: Grinding: Staying in the same area fighting the same monsters for a very long time. Simple.
How about you get off that slightly high horse of yours and go into any MMO your are currently playing and ask this NOOB question... What are people talking about when they say "GRINDING"?
Just so you know, I did to reassure myself earlier (before I said I was done with this) and the answer I got had nothing to do with repetitive gameplay or questing. Each answer was about killing mobs. No exaggeration. EACH answer I got was the same.
Now that I'm back on this subject I am going to go into WoW and ask the same question, I have no doubt it will be along the same lines as ...KILLING MOBS FOR EXP.
No one is arguing that killing mobs is not the most common usage of grinding. Most common does not mean only.
We are arguing what the definition of grinding is. Your point is that it is killing mobs. My point is that it is boring and repetitious tasks, only one of which is killing mobs.
Those glossaries also post thing such as train: To lead monsters so they will attack another player. Sure some do that, most trains are just people pulling too much agro and running for their lives.
or creep - a monster. Personally I have never called a mob, a creep. Just other players. so there is more than one definition
Don't give up your right to reason simply because someone wrote a glossary of what it means to them.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar No one is arguing that killing mobs is not the most common usage of grinding. Most common does not mean only. We are arguing what the definition of grinding is. Your point is that it is killing mobs. My point is that it is boring and repetitious tasks, only one of which is killing mobs. Venge Sunsoar
I know it doesn't mean only...I said that, but what is more likely when speaking about MMO's is all that I am saying. JEEZ
Maybe YOU should read my original post again. KEYWORD IN MY SENTAX= USUALLY
I would agree with you, but I can't because I know better and I actually know what the word grind means when referring to MMO's. Grinding is killing creatures for XP. Questing is something different. Sure that word can be applied to questing in a literal sense but MMO folks usually apply the word questing or adventuring.
So, lesson recap: Grinding = killing creeps...can also be called training.
Later you said usually, but preceded that with the, "The literal definition..."
You definately implied that grinding = only killing mobs.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: got to run for a couple hours. Be back later to find out what new and interesting things were said.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I think your probably right. A skill based game could remove some elements of grind. IF for nothing else, this reason alone; if it gets boring nad repetititous, grab a different skill.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I disagree. As someone stated before (i cant remember if it was this thread or not) skill-based systems are basicly level based at their core, just with a different name. Instead of being level 10, you are at the stage were you have x amount of skills or your skills are such-and-such points high....or whatever.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
------------------------------ "Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I disagree. As someone stated before (i cant remember if it was this thread or not) skill-based systems are basicly level based at their core, just with a different name. Instead of being level 10, you are at the stage were you have x amount of skills or your skills are such-and-such points high....or whatever.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar You mean this original post here: I would agree with you, but I can't because I know better and I actually know what the word grind means when referring to MMO's. Grinding is killing creatures for XP. Questing is something different. Sure that word can be applied to questing in a literal sense but MMO folks usually apply the word questing or adventuring. So, lesson recap: Grinding = killing creeps...can also be called training. Later you said usually, but preceded that with the, "The literal definition..." You definately implied that grinding = only killing mobs. Venge Sunsoar edit: got to run for a couple hours. Be back later to find out what new and interesting things were said.
Exactly...when referring to MMO's...grinding is killing mobs for xp. Usually. Why? because I know that whenever I hear grinding it's about that. Has been that way forever. It's what I think of first when hearing that. It's the picture I get hearing that. Optimization of the reading into of what folks may be speaking of when they mention grinding. I didn't imply that it's the ONLY, but more probable when talking with others about MMO's.
And, just from what you said about actually hearing of Quest grinding...I'm sure that's what that would be called. I will even go so far as to say...If grinding isn't the repetitous killing of monsters to finish a level (otherwise would be called farming if it's not for level), the grinding would be precedded with what it refers to. ie: Quest grinding, Rep grinding, Title grinding. While these all may be grinds (love the word now), I still can't throw a blanket definition on the word because I hardly see it used refering to anything else.
one day a game is going to structure itself similar to a single player game and we'll all going to cynically define all the usual activities in it as grind.
FPS= First Person Shooter TPS= Third Person Shooter
majora4 talking about fps's on an mmo site= dumb/irrelevant
It's not irrelevant. He gives an example of something he doesn't like in mmo's which he doesn't like followed by his conclusion that he prefers FPS. It's not a stupid question hellsfear.
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I disagree. As someone stated before (i cant remember if it was this thread or not) skill-based systems are basicly level based at their core, just with a different name. Instead of being level 10, you are at the stage were you have x amount of skills or your skills are such-and-such points high....or whatever.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Im sorry, I still fail to see the difference. I believe if you were able to gain xp via quests (which you are), killing a particular mob (check), training under a mentor (maybe) or PvP (WAR); it would be the same.
Besides for minor differences, I still can't imagine a skill-system that would vary drastically from a level system.
------------------------------ "Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
Grind does not mean "gameplay you dislike". Grinding is where you repeat the same action over and over until your eyes bleed.
Which is gameplay you don't like.
I do the same thing over and over and over in brickbreaker on my phone and I like it. The same thing over and over in spider solitaire, quake, Diablo.
The difference is gameplay is fun. For some people going from level 1 to 50 is fun if the gameplay getting there is fun. Just look at single player RPGs like KOTOR. There is no end game. But people don’t call it grind because getting to the end is fun (for some people)
I like the gameplay of CoX and I don’t call getting to the top grind. But some people do, and those are people that don’t like the gameplay. In fact when I get to the top in CoX I start a new char and do it all over again because I like the gameplay.
Grind does not mean "gameplay you dislike". Grinding is where you repeat the same action over and over until your eyes bleed.
Which is gameplay you don't like.
I do the same thing over and over and over in brickbreaker on my phone and I like it. The same thing over and over in spider solitaire, quake, Diablo.
The difference is gameplay is fun. For some people going from level 1 to 50 is fun if the gameplay getting there is fun. Just look at single player RPGs like KOTOR. There is no end game. But people don’t call it grind because getting to the end is fun (for some people)
The difference between games from solitaire to quake is that the repetition of the gameplay is the point itself. you do it over and over because it's fun, not because you're trying to achieve some ulterior longterm goal. in a grind, you repeate gameplay that is not fun in itself, because chasing after that carrot is the fun part, but it's also what makes it a grind.
imagine playing your favorite MMO without any progression ever. just doing the same thing, killing mobs, doing quests, whatever, but no longer a grind, because there's no longer a point. just the basic unchallenging mmo repetition, with nothing to look forward to. and then tell me the gameplay is fun. honestly.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Grind does not mean "gameplay you dislike". Grinding is where you repeat the same action over and over until your eyes bleed.
Which is gameplay you don't like.
I do the same thing over and over and over in brickbreaker on my phone and I like it. The same thing over and over in spider solitaire, quake, Diablo.
The difference is gameplay is fun. For some people going from level 1 to 50 is fun if the gameplay getting there is fun. Just look at single player RPGs like KOTOR. There is no end game. But people don’t call it grind because getting to the end is fun (for some people)
The difference between games from solitaire to quake is that the repetition of the gameplay is the point itself. you do it over and over because it's fun, not because you're trying to achieve some ulterior longterm goal. in a grind, you repeate gameplay that is not fun in itself, because chasing after that carrot is the fun part, but it's also what makes it a grind.
imagine playing your favorite MMO without any progression ever. just doing the same thing, killing mobs, doing quests, whatever, but no longer a grind, because there's no longer a point. just the basic unchallenging mmo repetition, with nothing to look forward to. and then tell me the gameplay is fun. honestly.
My point is don’t remove all the leveling - just make the combat fun. Which most MMOs do not do. CoX for me does, but not for everyone. Which is my I’m not playing any MMOs at the moment , I’m playing HG:L.
I would love to love WoW, but the combat is just way too boring for me. And I don’t care about end game, if I don’t like getting to the top I’m not going to play at all.
Some people in this thread are suggesting – remove the leveling. If you want that just play a First Person Shooter – they are fun and there are many out there.
My suggestion is to keep the leveling (if it’s a RPG) but make the combat fun. So fun most people would not care about end game because they would want to level a char from scratch again (like people do with single player RPGs)
If you want a MMO that is all end game, just make a persistent team based FPS. Like world of battlefield. And you could make one in a fantasy setting. In fact I don’t know anyone hasn’t done this yet. It doesn’t have to be a RPG to be a MMO.
Originally posted by ZindaihasOriginally posted by ProserpineOriginally posted by Zindaihas
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I disagree. As someone stated before (i cant remember if it was this thread or not) skill-based systems are basicly level based at their core, just with a different name. Instead of being level 10, you are at the stage were you have x amount of skills or your skills are such-and-such points high....or whatever.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Im sorry, I still fail to see the difference. I believe if you were able to gain xp via quests (which you are), killing a particular mob (check), training under a mentor (maybe) or PvP (WAR); it would be the same.
Besides for minor differences, I still can't imagine a skill-system that would vary drastically from a level system.
You can gain xp through these things, not levels (unless you are close to the next lvl already). That is a big difference. By gaining xp just from killing mobs, you can camp the same spot for hours and kill spawn after spawn after spawn until you lvl. That's what comes to mind when most people think of grinding. But if you could learn a skill through killing a particular spawn, that doesn't have to be a repetitive action. Suppose its a poweful named mob that holds the secret to some rare skill and lives deep in the bowels of a forboding dungeon. You don't camp a spot and kill over and over again. You track it down, attack it, hopefully kill it and move on.
I'm not saying skill-based progression would completely eliminate grinding, but I think it can go a long way to making MMOs less boring.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Sorrey Sovren again I have to disagree. I did play games of old, not meridiant 59 type old but I've been playing since just after the Kunark expansion in EQ. Grinding never really meant killing mobs, it always meant something that was boring, you know... a grind. It just so happens that in that game thats what you did most of the time was just kill mobs. Venge Sunsoar
W/E is all I can say to that...you keep your meaning and the rest of the interwebz will keep ours. Easy as that. Like I said, take a look at how the word is used in what context around age old forums and text that are still around when referring to this subject. It's plain as day. Even on this site also. I repeat...LEARN YOUR LINGO. *EDIT* OK, I just looked the word up on several sites referring to MMO SLANG and pretty much across the board they all list GRINDING AS KILLING CREATURES for XP. LOL... even wiki has it listed this way (read beyond the first line which talks about how it's used in MMORPGS) which is really nothing to be relied upon , but may be an indicator. OOPS....even the terminology sections for EQ, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, SWG, and VANGUARD has grinding down as killing creatures for XP. Like I said...the literal meaning can be applied to anything, but when applied to MMOs it's lingo. You never hear anyone say "OOH, I'm Quest grinding" do you? You do hear however rep grinds = killing somemone for something. Title grinds in guildwars is or has been the only time I have heard that word applied as such something different than the usual. Being that not all titles in that game require killing...most do, however a few do not. *EDIT 2* I'm finished with this...it's pointless. It actually took a few minutes to realize that I actually really don't care about this and no point in going any further for me especially when there are bigger issues for me to be worried about on the planet.
See thats the thing. You do hear about quest grinding. In EQ2, WoW, and LOTR especially you hear about quest grinding over and over again. The only reason you think that grinding referred to killing mobs over and over again was because thats all there was to do. Now that there is millions of qeusts you hear quest grinding. so again grinding is just repetitive activity that you don't like. So You need to learn the meaning behind the words. Venge Sunsoar
Ok I said I was done, but you said I need to learn the meaning behind the words, so now I back. Not once have I ever heard the term quest grinding in all the years I've played MMO's. Even in Lord of the rings where questing is pretty much the foundation of gaining any xp. Certainly more than killing mobs. See...what I gather from you disagreeing with me is that you think I'm wrong. BUT EVEN YOU STATE THAT PEOPLE APPLIED THE WORD GRINDING TO KILLING MOBS BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THERE WAS TO DO...supposedly, I remember questing being in quite a few older MMO's. How many times do I have to repeat this, is it not getting through to you? THE LITERAL DEFINITION OF THE WORD GRIND, GRINDING CAN BE APPLIED TO MANY THINGS IN OR OUT OF A GAME. But usually when it comes to terminology associated with MMO's it's referring to killing mobs for the reason you yourself said, because it was all there was to do. How do you think associations start. Slang like cool when referring to certain things doesn't mean it's cold. What planet are you from? I am fully objectionable when it comes to this as I actually do see where it can be used in many areas. But you disagreeing with me is just coming off as you don't see why my view is this way and that I am just wrong. So then let me ask you this...When someone mentions grind in a game to you, what part of the game do you think they are speaking of? If I were thinking questing in this instance, most times I would be wrong. *EDIT* That said, I see where a few of your points are coming from, it doesn't seem that you see mine. Now I'm finished with this.
NO that is not the literal definition of the word. The literal definition of the word, by your own source is a pejorative term in computer gaming meaning repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay. You used wiki, here is the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding or here The term Grinding is the act of doing something repetitively, such as killing monsters or working up a trade skill. If one is grinding their levels, it usually refers to killing massive amounts of creeps, or if they grind reputation, they may be collecting items for repeatable quests for a particular faction. http://www.wowwiki.com/Grind or here: What has been said about level grinding -the definition of grinding being the harvesting of animals, monsters, plants, and minerals, raw materials, for various quest-giving NPCs in the game- is absolutely true, as that's all you can do to level your character so you can, indeed, perform MORE level grinding. http://www.helium.com/tm/112730/articles-series-concerning-world or here: This finally brings us to a definition of grinding: it's when players repeatedly perform a somewhat painful action in order to acquire an abstract reward. http://www.jzig.com/blog/design/why_we_grind.html or on this very forum: I noticed that "the grind", or tedious repetition in treadmill gaming, is vastly disliked by a large majority (if not all) of gamers (including myself). http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/143972 or in the very title of this thread on this forum: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/137809 Do you get it now or should we bring in more. The application of grinding can be applied to any task but for games including MMO's it has meant boring and repetitious gameplay and boring is a state of mind. So if you find killing mobs to be boring and repetiive than that is a grind. If you find quests to be boring and repetitive that is a grind. If you find crafting to be boring and repetitive, that is a grind. When somone mentions a grind to me it means they are bored of some part of the gameplay. To find out what part of the gameplay they are talking about I would have to a: ask them, or b: refer to what the conversation was about (killing, crafting, mashing buttons, questing...) Venge Sunsoar edit: I would agree with you on that maggot, hopefully sane people dislike that though hehe.
Once again....for that wiki quote....check the sentence right after that one like I told you to do when says referring to MMO's. It plainly reads: "The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content". For each example beyond that, I can find just as many supporting my claims, why don't I? Not important to me anymore.
How about you read the terminology/ Glossary sections in each of the handbooks for any of those games. They read something like this: Grinding: Staying in the same area fighting the same monsters for a very long time. Simple.
How about you get off that slightly high horse of yours and go into any MMO your are currently playing and ask this NOOB question... What are people talking about when they say "GRINDING"?
Just so you know, I did to reassure myself earlier (before I said I was done with this) and the answer I got had nothing to do with repetitive gameplay or questing. Each answer was about killing mobs. No exaggeration. EACH answer I got was the same.
Now that I'm back on this subject I am going to go into WoW and ask the same question, I have no doubt it will be along the same lines as ...KILLING MOBS FOR EXP.
Ok, I just happen to take a look a the links you posted (i didn't read deeply into them before) and come to find out:
1. You must have not read past the first sentence in any of them as they pretty much each refer mostly to what I have said.
2. As far as the link that comes directly to this site, I AM THE 5th and 6th POSTER IN THAT THREAD...LOL, possibly more. How about you read a few post below mine where the guy says that he thought that is what it meant also only to find that more and more people in this forum are attaching that word to a broader spectrum.
I attribute that to people presuming to know what others are speaking of and applying the literal definition to different aspects of gaming. Shit...using what the word actually means you can apply it to almost anything.
However I do realize this change and may possibly use it in that manner now. But hey, some of us are stubborn and are hard pressed when it comes to change in some respects. I guess I'm fighting for preservation.
Sorry Sovren, I have to go with VengeSunsoar on this one, sort of.
Grinding can be applied to killing mobs, but can also be applied to questing, earning reputation, or anything else. The key here is not if you like doing it or not. It is still grinding mobs if you love it. To grind is to perform the same action over and over and over in order to achieve a goal.
Sunsoar is much closer to the idea here, but I contend that it doesn't matter if you enjoy the action or not. The grind is something that is put in place in the game in order to keep people playing for longer periods of time.
Sovren, all those words you listed earlier have specific meanings in games, but these meanings stem from their actual meanings. They are specific jargon. For example: Tapping means to claim a target such that actions done to it count as coming form you and/or your group. Thus if you tap a mob and kill it you get credit for its death. If you tap a quest guy, other people usually cannot interact with them until something is finished. To tap in general terms usually means to touch something, often to get its attention. It can also mean to initiate something into an organization. Do you see how the word got it's meaning?
In short, people don't make up these terms out of thin air, they come into use because they already mean what people want to convey. You can't say they don't mean what they really mean just because it is gamer jargon. You don't get to decide what words mean all by yourself. It is a cultural process that takes hundreds of years.
EDIT:
I just wanted to add that we got the word grinding from the phrase "to grind out," which means to produce something in a repetitive way, as on an assembly line. This is why people use the phrase "to grind out levels." It means any repetitive action.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by Leodious Sorry Sovren, I have to go with VengeSunsoar on this one, sort of.
Grinding can be applied to killing mobs, but can also be applied to questing, earning reputation, or anything else. The key here is not if you like doing it or not. It is still grinding mobs if you love it. To grind is to perform the same action over and over and over in order to achieve a goal.
Sunsoar is much closer to the idea here, but I contend that it doesn't matter if you enjoy the action or not. The grind is something that is put in place in the game in order to keep people playing for longer periods of time.
Sovren, all those words you listed earlier have specific meanings in games, but these meanings stem from their actual meanings. They are specific jargon. For example: Tapping means to claim a target such that actions done to it count as coming form you and/or your group. Thus if you tap a mob and kill it you get credit for its death. If you tap a quest guy, other people usually cannot interact with them until something is finished. To tap in general terms usually means to touch something, often to get its attention. It can also mean to initiate something into an organization. Do you see how the word got it's meaning?
In short, people don't make up these terms out of thin air, they come into use because they already mean what people want to convey. You can't say they don't mean what they really mean just because it is gamer jargon. You don't get to decide what words mean all by yourself. It is a cultural process that takes hundreds of years.
EDIT:
I just wanted to add that we got the word grinding from the phrase "to grind out," which means to produce something in a repetitive way, as on an assembly line. This is why people use the phrase "to grind out levels." It means any repetitive action.
For one, I never said "IF YOU LIKE DOING IT OR NOT". Not once have I ever said anything like that. Others have and they are just wrong.
So, all these other words have specific meanings in games stemming from what the actual word means, but grinding doesn't have a specific meaning in games stemming from what it realling means and people didn't attach that word to MMO's at one particular time when there really wasn't any questing in a game so they used it to describe repeatedly killing mobs because what me and VengSunsour have have actually agreed that back then it really was the only thing to do? Or it does which you say later but applies to anything repetitious. Dude, stop with the flip flop and if you paid attention to anything I've said...you would know that I recognize that, but I also use the word usually when talking about MMO's what the meaning probably(Usually) is.
And dude, I can say what a particular word MAY mean when it's JARGON or Slang in the context of what it is used. It of course will resemble the definition to a point. Clear example: Yo, that shit is dope. Take shit, take dope( I won't use Yo because I'm not sure it's even a word...although most would probably say it's used just like YOU or YOU ALL), Dope refers to drugs, shit takes the place of any noun your speaking of. Now in this sentence Yo, that shit is dope has literally many meanings. It could mean literally some actual thing is drugs. But if it were used in a particular context like say music or a particular thing in gaming like a sword, then shit = sword, and dope compares that sword to drugs and 99.9% of the time how good the feeling you get from drugs ovrerall.
It's just so odd to me that people would attach a word to several particular points within a game. And that if it's attached to so many parts meaning countless variables, how can anything be labeled as such if there are so many things to do? For instance: I say "damn, the grind in that game is too much". Now as an MMO person, what exactly would you immediately think I was speaking of? Each thing in that game that was repetitious, or would you gravitate to what I think it is; Killing over and over again for a specific reason, gaining levels? Now if I said Quest grinding, then maybe you would know that I was attaching the word to quest. But if there is no context surrounding that sentence, I really don't think you would be thinking that I was speaking of all these different parts to a game.
Flip side, you could gravitate to one particular thing you see as grind like say the creating over and over of a item, but again I said usually and tried to reinforce my idea of the attachment with why it's not just usually, but mostly when speaking of MMO's.
In the one link (MMORPG one) the poster beneath me stated that a poll was run and that 75% of folks who participated in it thought that grinding means boring gameplay. Boring is subjective person to person. I thought grinding was just that...grinding no matter what. I'll stick to my definition and what it means to me within MMO GAMES and those that disagree can stick to yours. We agree to disagree then. No harm, No foul, No Name calling.
Besides, it's not like I'm Galileo agreeing with Copernicus about the Sun being the center of our solar system while everyone is wrong, but think they are right and willing to kill to keep it that way. It's more I say tomayto and others say tomatoe.
*EDIT* I can do that too: The word grind in the phrase "to grind out", is usually applied to gaining levels in a particular way not any repetitious act of gaining a level. As I never recall anyone ever applying the word to say...um instances as whole, or grinding raids over and over again...or grinding raids instances for particular weapons...that's repetitious isn't it? Maybe I've heard the term ENDGAME grind or the grind endgame, but it's attached to something specific as I have said it must be for me to think anything other than killing mobs for xp or level progression. However, even endgame grind in this manner is still speaking of killing monsters if you think about it.
So, for me: Grind = killing mobs for xp, or if it's something specific then it will be described as so like for instance I'm item grinding right now which probably refers to creating an item over and over to gain a level in item creation or something.
We don't get very many linguists in here do we? Maybe from now on I should just refrain from explaining anything of this nature, because clearly there are many people that simply are not old enough or educated enough to engage in intellectual conversations. You people just want to argue don't you? There is no discussion, no real understanding. Just bickering. And again, you people don't get to decide what a word means. You don't get to say "for me, this word means this." A word means what it means. Society can change a meaning gradually, but you can't just arbitrarily make these kinds of changes. Just because you are playing a game and using the word inside that game does not mean the word denotes something different from that which it always does. The word has a denotation. You can't choose it.
I may still lurk, but I doubt I will ever post on any forum again ever. I doubt anyone cares, but this is just too much for me. I get sick to my stomach reading "Yo, that shit is dope" in a linguistics conversation.
The signature says it all. Thank you ianubisi.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by Leodious We don't get very many linguists in here do we? Maybe from now on I should just refrain from explaining anything of this nature, because clearly there are many people that simply are not old enough or educated enough to engage in intellectual conversations. You people just want to argue don't you? There is no discussion, no real understanding. Just bickering. And again, you people don't get to decide what a word means. You don't get to say "for me, this word means this." A word means what it means. Society can change a meaning gradually, but you can't just arbitrarily make these kinds of changes. Just because you are playing a game and using the word inside that game does not mean the word denotes something different from that which it always does. The word has a denotation. You can't choose it.
I may still lurk, but I doubt I will ever post on any forum again ever. I doubt anyone cares, but this is just too much for me. I get sick to my stomach reading "Yo, that shit is dope" in a linguistics conversation.
The signature says it all. Thank you ianubisi.
Why would "Yo, that shit is dope" hurt your poor trill(another piece of slang) stomach in a conversation about what boils down to slang and how it's used? It's not my fault that one or two folks choose to argue with me; YOU INCLUDED, about what grinding does or doesn't mean and not continue with the original idea of the thread. How it can be solved, or why it's there, or the history of it.
You do get to interpret what a word means when applied to certain subjects. You definitely see this a lot in translation between languages. Especially in dialect usage between words in same languages. Example: My boss is a Spaniard is continually being argued with by other Spanish speaking folks about what a word means. I see where these others may be right in their areas...but if they were trying to say certain things in Spain then they would be wrong.
Another example, Jeez: To Run someone in an MMO means basically what? To take a lowbie through an area protecting him/her. Now out of the 170 plus definitions of the word run, there are like none that say that. There are many that say going from one point to another which is close, but still doesn't cover the lowbie protection aspect. Why? Because it's MMO slang.
I will say though for Guild Wars, running someone is just taking a capped player running through from one piece of an instance to the other while the lowbie does nothing. Once anyone goes through to the other side...every member of the group is transported. Most MMO's don't do this.
Fine, Literal definitions of Grind applied to boring game play which I still think is wrong to do as it is subjective: laborious, usually uninteresting work.
Verb phrase 20. grind out, a. to produce in a routine or mechanical way: Applied to MMO's I always thought this referred to killing mobs specifically for the sake of gaining levels which is the reason people even applied it to begin with.
These two are the only two definitions out of nearly 30 that stick out to me when speaking of gaming and or MMO's.
You can now move on from this as I won't be back to this thread. Just yank me out of this conversation. If I could I would go back and delete all of my post in this thread. Laters all, No worries and happy trails.
My sig says it all huh? Ouch. No name calling please. I'm not even old enough or educated enough to understand what you just said to me. Thank you Ianibisi.
ok.. im not sayin that they should take out the grind, but-to inhance the gameing experiance for the newer player so that they enjoy it. the storyline is a lost cause. the world does NOT like a story read to them, they dont like following a guideline. they like to fall from, it so they can think there different from the other 5 million people who did the same.for instance ur playing W.O.W, L.O.T.R.O, etc. and you just killed a wolf. why did u kill it? was ti theatoning you? did it call your mom a whore?was it helpin the huns tear down your "Great Wall(of China)"??no u did it beacuse u can. yes u could do it because it was a quest, but tell me this why did he/she want that wolf dead.
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I disagree. As someone stated before (i cant remember if it was this thread or not) skill-based systems are basicly level based at their core, just with a different name. Instead of being level 10, you are at the stage were you have x amount of skills or your skills are such-and-such points high....or whatever.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Erm they do that with level based though m8, you can get quests that give you experience just for talking to someone, visiting areas, solving puzzles etc. I think a truelly skill based game wont have any kind of progression that improves your character in any physical way but only has the progression related to the players own skills.
Otherwise it is just leveling just as has been said with a different name, and all the same flaws for instance someone with better place skills than you or higher points in whatever skill will be better than you, just like someone who had for instance more levels than you would still have an advantage.
Theres no reason why either one couldnt be dealt with without removing the system and taking on another one.
And to stay on topic, the OP is right mmos with good stories still boil down to some boring repetitive task, it really let down lord of the rings imo, they had really well written quests and the starting quests were fun, until they started copy and pasting the kill x of y quests over and over again
edit: forgot to mention they could change this by doing things like for instance make interesting combat systems, if a game has a good combat system who cares how many kill x of y quests there are we probably wouldnt be able to get enough of them with well design combat.
I think lord of the rings did the fed ex quests right atleast in the starting town, they were actually hard ( well they werent that hard, but they certainly werent like wow where you got 1 hour to go kill 5 mobs for instance), thats how you eliminate that grind you make the quests challenging. The level grind, can be removed by making levels only add more skills/abilities that make you more versatile not more powerful, i believe pirates of the burning sea is doing this.
And of course like i said you could just remove levels and character progresstion in the form of stats/power by just making all progression releated to the players ability only like a rts or fps game.
Comments
Grind does not mean "gameplay you dislike". Grinding is where you repeat the same action over and over until your eyes bleed.
W/E is all I can say to that...you keep your meaning and the rest of the interwebz will keep ours. Easy as that. Like I said, take a look at how the word is used in what context around age old forums and text that are still around when referring to this subject. It's plain as day. Even on this site also. I repeat...LEARN YOUR LINGO.
*EDIT* OK, I just looked the word up on several sites referring to MMO SLANG and pretty much across the board they all list GRINDING AS KILLING CREATURES for XP. LOL... even wiki has it listed this way (read beyond the first line which talks about how it's used in MMORPGS) which is really nothing to be relied upon , but may be an indicator. OOPS....even the terminology sections for EQ, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, SWG, and VANGUARD has grinding down as killing creatures for XP.
Like I said...the literal meaning can be applied to anything, but when applied to MMOs it's lingo. You never hear anyone say "OOH, I'm Quest grinding" do you? You do hear however rep grinds = killing somemone for something. Title grinds in guildwars is or has been the only time I have heard that word applied as such something different than the usual. Being that not all titles in that game require killing...most do, however a few do not.
*EDIT 2* I'm finished with this...it's pointless. It actually took a few minutes to realize that I actually really don't care about this and no point in going any further for me especially when there are bigger issues for me to be worried about on the planet.
See thats the thing. You do hear about quest grinding. In EQ2, WoW, and LOTR especially you hear about quest grinding over and over again.
The only reason you think that grinding referred to killing mobs over and over again was because thats all there was to do. Now that there is millions of qeusts you hear quest grinding. so again grinding is just repetitive activity that you don't like.
So You need to learn the meaning behind the words.
Venge Sunsoar
Ok I said I was done, but you said I need to learn the meaning behind the words, so now I back. Not once have I ever heard the term quest grinding in all the years I've played MMO's. Even in Lord of the rings where questing is pretty much the foundation of gaining any xp. Certainly more than killing mobs.
See...what I gather from you disagreeing with me is that you think I'm wrong. BUT EVEN YOU STATE THAT PEOPLE APPLIED THE WORD GRINDING TO KILLING MOBS BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THERE WAS TO DO...supposedly, I remember questing being in quite a few older MMO's.
How many times do I have to repeat this, is it not getting through to you? THE LITERAL DEFINITION OF THE WORD GRIND, GRINDING CAN BE APPLIED TO MANY THINGS IN OR OUT OF A GAME. But usually when it comes to terminology associated with MMO's it's referring to killing mobs for the reason you yourself said, because it was all there was to do. How do you think associations start.
Slang like cool when referring to certain things doesn't mean it's cold. What planet are you from?
I am fully objectionable when it comes to this as I actually do see where it can be used in many areas. But you disagreeing with me is just coming off as you don't see why my view is this way and that I am just wrong.
So then let me ask you this...When someone mentions grind in a game to you, what part of the game do you think they are speaking of? If I were thinking questing in this instance, most times I would be wrong.
*EDIT* That said, I see where a few of your points are coming from, it doesn't seem that you see mine. Now I'm finished with this.
NO that is not the literal definition of the word. The literal definition of the word, by your own source is a pejorative term in computer gaming meaning repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay. You used wiki, here is the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding
or here
The term Grinding is the act of doing something repetitively, such as killing monsters or working up a trade skill. If one is grinding their levels, it usually refers to killing massive amounts of creeps, or if they grind reputation, they may be collecting items for repeatable quests for a particular faction. http://www.wowwiki.com/Grind
or here:
What has been said about level grinding -the definition of grinding being the harvesting of animals, monsters, plants, and minerals, raw materials, for various quest-giving NPCs in the game- is absolutely true, as that's all you can do to level your character so you can, indeed, perform MORE level grinding. http://www.helium.com/tm/112730/articles-series-concerning-world
or here:
This finally brings us to a definition of grinding: it's when players repeatedly perform a somewhat painful action in order to acquire an abstract reward. http://www.jzig.com/blog/design/why_we_grind.html
or on this very forum:
I noticed that "the grind", or tedious repetition in treadmill gaming, is vastly disliked by a large majority (if not all) of gamers (including myself). http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/143972
or in the very title of this thread on this forum: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/137809
Do you get it now or should we bring in more. The application of grinding can be applied to any task but for games including MMO's it has meant boring and repetitious gameplay and boring is a state of mind.
So if you find killing mobs to be boring and repetiive than that is a grind. If you find quests to be boring and repetitive that is a grind. If you find crafting to be boring and repetitive, that is a grind.
When somone mentions a grind to me it means they are bored of some part of the gameplay. To find out what part of the gameplay they are talking about I would have to a: ask them, or b: refer to what the conversation was about (killing, crafting, mashing buttons, questing...)
Venge Sunsoar
edit: I would agree with you on that maggot, hopefully sane people dislike that though hehe.
Once again....for that wiki quote....check the sentence right after that one like I told you to do when says referring to MMO's. It plainly reads: "The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content". For each example beyond that, I can find just as many supporting my claims, why don't I? Not important to me anymore.
How about you read the terminology/ Glossary sections in each of the handbooks for any of those games. They read something like this: Grinding: Staying in the same area fighting the same monsters for a very long time. Simple.
How about you get off that slightly high horse of yours and go into any MMO your are currently playing and ask this NOOB question... What are people talking about when they say "GRINDING"?
Just so you know, I did to reassure myself earlier (before I said I was done with this) and the answer I got had nothing to do with repetitive gameplay or questing. Each answer was about killing mobs. No exaggeration. EACH answer I got was the same.
Now that I'm back on this subject I am going to go into WoW and ask the same question, I have no doubt it will be along the same lines as ...KILLING MOBS FOR EXP.
No one is arguing that killing mobs is not the most common usage of grinding. Most common does not mean only.
We are arguing what the definition of grinding is. Your point is that it is killing mobs. My point is that it is boring and repetitious tasks, only one of which is killing mobs.
Those glossaries also post thing such as train: To lead monsters so they will attack another player. Sure some do that, most trains are just people pulling too much agro and running for their lives.
or creep - a monster. Personally I have never called a mob, a creep. Just other players. so there is more than one definition
Don't give up your right to reason simply because someone wrote a glossary of what it means to them.
Venge Sunsoar
I know it doesn't mean only...I said that, but what is more likely when speaking about MMO's is all that I am saying. JEEZ
Maybe YOU should read my original post again. KEYWORD IN MY SENTAX= USUALLY
You mean this original post here:
I would agree with you, but I can't because I know better and I actually know what the word grind means when referring to MMO's. Grinding is killing creatures for XP. Questing is something different. Sure that word can be applied to questing in a literal sense but MMO folks usually apply the word questing or adventuring.
So, lesson recap: Grinding = killing creeps...can also be called training.
Later you said usually, but preceded that with the, "The literal definition..."
You definately implied that grinding = only killing mobs.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: got to run for a couple hours. Be back later to find out what new and interesting things were said.
I think a skill-based progression game instead of level-based, if done properly, could go a long way to eliminating, or at least reducing, the tedium of grinding.
I think your probably right. A skill based game could remove some elements of grind. IF for nothing else, this reason alone; if it gets boring nad repetititous, grab a different skill.
Venge Sunsoar
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
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"Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Exactly...when referring to MMO's...grinding is killing mobs for xp. Usually. Why? because I know that whenever I hear grinding it's about that. Has been that way forever. It's what I think of first when hearing that. It's the picture I get hearing that. Optimization of the reading into of what folks may be speaking of when they mention grinding. I didn't imply that it's the ONLY, but more probable when talking with others about MMO's.
And, just from what you said about actually hearing of Quest grinding...I'm sure that's what that would be called. I will even go so far as to say...If grinding isn't the repetitous killing of monsters to finish a level (otherwise would be called farming if it's not for level),
the grinding would be precedded with what it refers to. ie: Quest grinding, Rep grinding, Title grinding. While these all may be grinds (love the word now), I still can't throw a blanket definition on the word because I hardly see it used refering to anything else.
It's MMO slang.
one day a game is going to structure itself similar to a single player game and we'll all going to cynically define all the usual activities in it as grind.
FPS= First Person Shooter TPS= Third Person Shooter
majora4 talking about fps's on an mmo site= dumb/irrelevant
It's not irrelevant. He gives an example of something he doesn't like in mmo's which he doesn't like followed by his conclusion that he prefers FPS. It's not a stupid question hellsfear.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Im sorry, I still fail to see the difference. I believe if you were able to gain xp via quests (which you are), killing a particular mob (check), training under a mentor (maybe) or PvP (WAR); it would be the same.
Besides for minor differences, I still can't imagine a skill-system that would vary drastically from a level system.
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"Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
Which is gameplay you don't like.
I do the same thing over and over and over in brickbreaker on my phone and I like it. The same thing over and over in spider solitaire, quake, Diablo.
The difference is gameplay is fun. For some people going from level 1 to 50 is fun if the gameplay getting there is fun. Just look at single player RPGs like KOTOR. There is no end game. But people don’t call it grind because getting to the end is fun (for some people)
I like the gameplay of CoX and I don’t call getting to the top grind. But some people do, and those are people that don’t like the gameplay. In fact when I get to the top in CoX I start a new char and do it all over again because I like the gameplay.
Which is gameplay you don't like.
I do the same thing over and over and over in brickbreaker on my phone and I like it. The same thing over and over in spider solitaire, quake, Diablo.
The difference is gameplay is fun. For some people going from level 1 to 50 is fun if the gameplay getting there is fun. Just look at single player RPGs like KOTOR. There is no end game. But people don’t call it grind because getting to the end is fun (for some people)
The difference between games from solitaire to quake is that the repetition of the gameplay is the point itself. you do it over and over because it's fun, not because you're trying to achieve some ulterior longterm goal. in a grind, you repeate gameplay that is not fun in itself, because chasing after that carrot is the fun part, but it's also what makes it a grind.
imagine playing your favorite MMO without any progression ever. just doing the same thing, killing mobs, doing quests, whatever, but no longer a grind, because there's no longer a point. just the basic unchallenging mmo repetition, with nothing to look forward to. and then tell me the gameplay is fun. honestly.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Which is gameplay you don't like.
I do the same thing over and over and over in brickbreaker on my phone and I like it. The same thing over and over in spider solitaire, quake, Diablo.
The difference is gameplay is fun. For some people going from level 1 to 50 is fun if the gameplay getting there is fun. Just look at single player RPGs like KOTOR. There is no end game. But people don’t call it grind because getting to the end is fun (for some people)
The difference between games from solitaire to quake is that the repetition of the gameplay is the point itself. you do it over and over because it's fun, not because you're trying to achieve some ulterior longterm goal. in a grind, you repeate gameplay that is not fun in itself, because chasing after that carrot is the fun part, but it's also what makes it a grind.
imagine playing your favorite MMO without any progression ever. just doing the same thing, killing mobs, doing quests, whatever, but no longer a grind, because there's no longer a point. just the basic unchallenging mmo repetition, with nothing to look forward to. and then tell me the gameplay is fun. honestly.
My point is don’t remove all the leveling - just make the combat fun. Which most MMOs do not do. CoX for me does, but not for everyone. Which is my I’m not playing any MMOs at the moment , I’m playing HG:L.
I would love to love WoW, but the combat is just way too boring for me. And I don’t care about end game, if I don’t like getting to the top I’m not going to play at all.
Some people in this thread are suggesting – remove the leveling. If you want that just play a First Person Shooter – they are fun and there are many out there.
My suggestion is to keep the leveling (if it’s a RPG) but make the combat fun. So fun most people would not care about end game because they would want to level a char from scratch again (like people do with single player RPGs)
If you want a MMO that is all end game, just make a persistent team based FPS. Like world of battlefield. And you could make one in a fantasy setting. In fact I don’t know anyone hasn’t done this yet. It doesn’t have to be a RPG to be a MMO.
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Im sorry, I still fail to see the difference. I believe if you were able to gain xp via quests (which you are), killing a particular mob (check), training under a mentor (maybe) or PvP (WAR); it would be the same.
Besides for minor differences, I still can't imagine a skill-system that would vary drastically from a level system.
You can gain xp through these things, not levels (unless you are close to the next lvl already). That is a big difference. By gaining xp just from killing mobs, you can camp the same spot for hours and kill spawn after spawn after spawn until you lvl. That's what comes to mind when most people think of grinding. But if you could learn a skill through killing a particular spawn, that doesn't have to be a repetitive action. Suppose its a poweful named mob that holds the secret to some rare skill and lives deep in the bowels of a forboding dungeon. You don't camp a spot and kill over and over again. You track it down, attack it, hopefully kill it and move on.
I'm not saying skill-based progression would completely eliminate grinding, but I think it can go a long way to making MMOs less boring.
Ok, I just happen to take a look a the links you posted (i didn't read deeply into them before) and come to find out:
1. You must have not read past the first sentence in any of them as they pretty much each refer mostly to what I have said.
2. As far as the link that comes directly to this site, I AM THE 5th and 6th POSTER IN THAT THREAD...LOL, possibly more. How about you read a few post below mine where the guy says that he thought that is what it meant also only to find that more and more people in this forum are attaching that word to a broader spectrum.
I attribute that to people presuming to know what others are speaking of and applying the literal definition to different aspects of gaming. Shit...using what the word actually means you can apply it to almost anything.
However I do realize this change and may possibly use it in that manner now. But hey, some of us are stubborn and are hard pressed when it comes to change in some respects. I guess I'm fighting for preservation.
Sorry Sovren, I have to go with VengeSunsoar on this one, sort of.
Grinding can be applied to killing mobs, but can also be applied to questing, earning reputation, or anything else. The key here is not if you like doing it or not. It is still grinding mobs if you love it. To grind is to perform the same action over and over and over in order to achieve a goal.
Sunsoar is much closer to the idea here, but I contend that it doesn't matter if you enjoy the action or not. The grind is something that is put in place in the game in order to keep people playing for longer periods of time.
Sovren, all those words you listed earlier have specific meanings in games, but these meanings stem from their actual meanings. They are specific jargon. For example: Tapping means to claim a target such that actions done to it count as coming form you and/or your group. Thus if you tap a mob and kill it you get credit for its death. If you tap a quest guy, other people usually cannot interact with them until something is finished. To tap in general terms usually means to touch something, often to get its attention. It can also mean to initiate something into an organization. Do you see how the word got it's meaning?
In short, people don't make up these terms out of thin air, they come into use because they already mean what people want to convey. You can't say they don't mean what they really mean just because it is gamer jargon. You don't get to decide what words mean all by yourself. It is a cultural process that takes hundreds of years.
EDIT:
I just wanted to add that we got the word grinding from the phrase "to grind out," which means to produce something in a repetitive way, as on an assembly line. This is why people use the phrase "to grind out levels." It means any repetitive action.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
For one, I never said "IF YOU LIKE DOING IT OR NOT". Not once have I ever said anything like that. Others have and they are just wrong.
So, all these other words have specific meanings in games stemming from what the actual word means, but grinding doesn't have a specific meaning in games stemming from what it realling means and people didn't attach that word to MMO's at one particular time when there really wasn't any questing in a game so they used it to describe repeatedly killing mobs because what me and VengSunsour have have actually agreed that back then it really was the only thing to do? Or it does which you say later but applies to anything repetitious. Dude, stop with the flip flop and if you paid attention to anything I've said...you would know that I recognize that, but I also use the word usually when talking about MMO's what the meaning probably(Usually) is.
And dude, I can say what a particular word MAY mean when it's JARGON or Slang in the context of what it is used. It of course will resemble the definition to a point. Clear example: Yo, that shit is dope. Take shit, take dope( I won't use Yo because I'm not sure it's even a word...although most would probably say it's used just like YOU or YOU ALL), Dope refers to drugs, shit takes the place of any noun your speaking of. Now in this sentence Yo, that shit is dope has literally many meanings. It could mean literally some actual thing is drugs. But if it were used in a particular context like say music or a particular thing in gaming like a sword, then shit = sword, and dope compares that sword to drugs and 99.9% of the time how good the feeling you get from drugs ovrerall.
It's just so odd to me that people would attach a word to several particular points within a game. And that if it's attached to so many parts meaning countless variables, how can anything be labeled as such if there are so many things to do? For instance: I say "damn, the grind in that game is too much". Now as an MMO person, what exactly would you immediately think I was speaking of? Each thing in that game that was repetitious, or would you gravitate to what I think it is; Killing over and over again for a specific reason, gaining levels? Now if I said Quest grinding, then maybe you would know that I was attaching the word to quest. But if there is no context surrounding that sentence, I really don't think you would be thinking that I was speaking of all these different parts to a game.
Flip side, you could gravitate to one particular thing you see as grind like say the creating over and over of a item, but again I said usually and tried to reinforce my idea of the attachment with why it's not just usually, but mostly when speaking of MMO's.
In the one link (MMORPG one) the poster beneath me stated that a poll was run and that 75% of folks who participated in it thought that grinding means boring gameplay. Boring is subjective person to person. I thought grinding was just that...grinding no matter what. I'll stick to my definition and what it means to me within MMO GAMES and those that disagree can stick to yours. We agree to disagree then. No harm, No foul, No Name calling.
Besides, it's not like I'm Galileo agreeing with Copernicus about the Sun being the center of our solar system while everyone is wrong, but think they are right and willing to kill to keep it that way. It's more I say tomayto and others say tomatoe.
*EDIT* I can do that too: The word grind in the phrase "to grind out", is usually applied to gaining levels in a particular way not any repetitious act of gaining a level. As I never recall anyone ever applying the word to say...um instances as whole, or grinding raids over and over again...or grinding raids instances for particular weapons...that's repetitious isn't it? Maybe I've heard the term ENDGAME grind or the grind endgame, but it's attached to something specific as I have said it must be for me to think anything other than killing mobs for xp or level progression. However, even endgame grind in this manner is still speaking of killing monsters if you think about it.
So, for me: Grind = killing mobs for xp, or if it's something specific then it will be described as so like for instance I'm item grinding right now which probably refers to creating an item over and over to gain a level in item creation or something.
We don't get very many linguists in here do we? Maybe from now on I should just refrain from explaining anything of this nature, because clearly there are many people that simply are not old enough or educated enough to engage in intellectual conversations. You people just want to argue don't you? There is no discussion, no real understanding. Just bickering. And again, you people don't get to decide what a word means. You don't get to say "for me, this word means this." A word means what it means. Society can change a meaning gradually, but you can't just arbitrarily make these kinds of changes. Just because you are playing a game and using the word inside that game does not mean the word denotes something different from that which it always does. The word has a denotation. You can't choose it.
I may still lurk, but I doubt I will ever post on any forum again ever. I doubt anyone cares, but this is just too much for me. I get sick to my stomach reading "Yo, that shit is dope" in a linguistics conversation.
The signature says it all. Thank you ianubisi.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Why would "Yo, that shit is dope" hurt your poor trill(another piece of slang) stomach in a conversation about what boils down to slang and how it's used? It's not my fault that one or two folks choose to argue with me; YOU INCLUDED, about what grinding does or doesn't mean and not continue with the original idea of the thread. How it can be solved, or why it's there, or the history of it.
You do get to interpret what a word means when applied to certain subjects. You definitely see this a lot in translation between languages. Especially in dialect usage between words in same languages. Example: My boss is a Spaniard is continually being argued with by other Spanish speaking folks about what a word means. I see where these others may be right in their areas...but if they were trying to say certain things in Spain then they would be wrong.
Another example, Jeez: To Run someone in an MMO means basically what? To take a lowbie through an area protecting him/her. Now out of the 170 plus definitions of the word run, there are like none that say that. There are many that say going from one point to another which is close, but still doesn't cover the lowbie protection aspect. Why? Because it's MMO slang.
I will say though for Guild Wars, running someone is just taking a capped player running through from one piece of an instance to the other while the lowbie does nothing. Once anyone goes through to the other side...every member of the group is transported. Most MMO's don't do this.
Fine, Literal definitions of Grind applied to boring game play which I still think is wrong to do as it is subjective: laborious, usually uninteresting work.
Verb phrase
20. grind out,
a. to produce in a routine or mechanical way:
Applied to MMO's I always thought this referred to killing mobs specifically for the sake of gaining levels which is the reason people even applied it to begin with.
These two are the only two definitions out of nearly 30 that stick out to me when speaking of gaming and or MMO's.
You can now move on from this as I won't be back to this thread. Just yank me out of this conversation. If I could I would go back and delete all of my post in this thread. Laters all, No worries and happy trails.
My sig says it all huh? Ouch. No name calling please. I'm not even old enough or educated enough to understand what you just said to me. Thank you Ianibisi.
ok.. im not sayin that they should take out the grind, but-to inhance the gameing experiance for the newer player so that they enjoy it. the storyline is a lost cause. the world does NOT like a story read to them, they dont like following a guideline. they like to fall from, it so they can think there different from the other 5 million people who did the same.for instance ur playing W.O.W, L.O.T.R.O, etc. and you just killed a wolf. why did u kill it? was ti theatoning you? did it call your mom a whore?was it helpin the huns tear down your "Great Wall(of China)"??no u did it beacuse u can. yes u could do it because it was a quest, but tell me this why did he/she want that wolf dead.
and plz keep to the subject
There will still be a natural break amongst people with different skill levels (i coudnt think of a different word to use there) as far as zones, dungeons, pvp, etc...
Anyway, I think you guys took this way off topic, the OP was talking about storylines if i recall..
That may appear to be the case, but with a little imagination, it's not. In a level-based game, you can only advance in level by gaining experience pts. And the most common way to gain xp pts is to kill mobs, i.e. grind. If you elminate the xp pt system, you can come up with multiple ways to gain skills. Completing a quest, killing a particular mob or training under a mentor are a few thoughts that come to mind.
And we didn't stray that far off topic. The OP may started this thread talking about MMO plots, but he was lamenting about how it still boils down to a grind.
Erm they do that with level based though m8, you can get quests that give you experience just for talking to someone, visiting areas, solving puzzles etc. I think a truelly skill based game wont have any kind of progression that improves your character in any physical way but only has the progression related to the players own skills.
Otherwise it is just leveling just as has been said with a different name, and all the same flaws for instance someone with better place skills than you or higher points in whatever skill will be better than you, just like someone who had for instance more levels than you would still have an advantage.
Theres no reason why either one couldnt be dealt with without removing the system and taking on another one.
And to stay on topic, the OP is right mmos with good stories still boil down to some boring repetitive task, it really let down lord of the rings imo, they had really well written quests and the starting quests were fun, until they started copy and pasting the kill x of y quests over and over again
edit: forgot to mention they could change this by doing things like for instance make interesting combat systems, if a game has a good combat system who cares how many kill x of y quests there are we probably wouldnt be able to get enough of them with well design combat.
I think lord of the rings did the fed ex quests right atleast in the starting town, they were actually hard ( well they werent that hard, but they certainly werent like wow where you got 1 hour to go kill 5 mobs for instance), thats how you eliminate that grind you make the quests challenging. The level grind, can be removed by making levels only add more skills/abilities that make you more versatile not more powerful, i believe pirates of the burning sea is doing this.
And of course like i said you could just remove levels and character progresstion in the form of stats/power by just making all progression releated to the players ability only like a rts or fps game.