I believe in the KISS principle when looking at MMORPG issues. I believe the next MMORPG that makes it big will be skill based and incorporate a dps system in which everyone outputs the same dps regardless of class makeup. Getting gutted by a large sword should hurt just as bad as being incinerated by a fire spell. It is silly to see two weapons that are virtually the same in appereance be a world apart when looking at their stats and that ruins the level of immersion that a player could delve into.
The focus should definitely stray away from the mathematical model (and other models such as grinding for xp, factions, etc) and instead move towards skill based play. I find it especially annoying how defensive characters such as priests (from all types of mmorpgs) have no real offensive means to tackle pure offensive classes or how offensive classes have no real defensive means to use against other offensive classes (example guild wars, some types of mages have no chance in hell against an assasin). I believe that it should be 50/50 all the way with whatever class mashup and let the player who plays better and best utilize his skills win.
Does a stat sheet somehow talk and lure you into looking at it? It's in a separate menu and nothing says you have to look at it...
What the other guy says about wanting to nitpick and find everything out when he see's the stats, let me say that doesn't happen to me. I need the stat for precision, if it's necessary like when reaching a certain number will give a certain amount of bonus (otherwise if precision isn't necessary, I'd want at least a polygonal diagram of the distribution of my stats). This way I can look at a menu briefly and know right away where I'm at.
(w/ stats = some trial 'n error, w/out = massive trial 'n error)
You hardly have to think about stats in WoW at all. The only place you really need good equipment for instances is at the end of the game and then they give you sets so it's not hard to pick out what you need. You have talent points, but that doesn't have anything to do with math really. Some games actually let you choose what stats to disbribute points into at level up amoungst other things. Those type of games are usually to much for people to handle.
Okay let me get this straight here... Does a stat sheet somehow talk and lure you into looking at it? It's in a separate menu and nothing says you have to look at it... What the other guy says about wanting to nitpick and find everything out when he see's the stats, let me say that doesn't happen to me. I need the stat for precision, if it's necessary like when reaching a certain number will give a certain amount of bonus (otherwise if precision isn't necessary, I'd want at least a polygonal diagram of the distribution of my stats). This way I can look at a menu briefly and know right away where I'm at. (w/ stats = some trial 'n error, w/out = massive trial 'n error)
Most MMORPGs are all about stats. You have to choose the equipment that has the most + to your class' most commonly used stats. Everyone has to weigh the options and instead of choosing equipment they like, they keep the equipment with the best stats, regardless of how it looks. This is why everyone feels like a mindless clone. (EDIT: If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG.)
I don't see what's so wrong with trial and error. A game shouldn't rely so much on statistics, anyway. As Crazynuts24 stated, the person who plays better and utilizes his skills better should be victorious, in normal circumstances.
Those of us looking for an immersive game see getting rid of visible stats as a step in a positive direction, but power gamers are afraid of what they can't quantify. What a developer has to ask him/herself is, "What variety of player to I primarily want to encourage?"
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
Originally posted by Lodeclaw Most MMORPGs are all about stats. You have to choose the equipment that has the most + to your class' most commonly used stats. Everyone has to weigh the options and instead of choosing equipment they like, they keep the equipment with the best stats, regardless of how it looks. This is why everyone feels like a mindless clone. (EDIT: If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG.) I don't see what's so wrong with trial and error. A game shouldn't rely so much on statistics, anyway. As Crazynuts24 stated, the person who plays better and utilizes his skills better should be victorious, in normal circumstances. Those of us looking for an immersive game see getting rid of visible stats as a step in a positive direction, but power gamers are afraid of what they can't quantify. What a developer has to ask him/herself is, "What variety of player to I primarily want to encourage?"
Okay let me get this straight here... Does a stat sheet somehow talk and lure you into looking at it? It's in a separate menu and nothing says you have to look at it... What the other guy says about wanting to nitpick and find everything out when he see's the stats, let me say that doesn't happen to me. I need the stat for precision, if it's necessary like when reaching a certain number will give a certain amount of bonus (otherwise if precision isn't necessary, I'd want at least a polygonal diagram of the distribution of my stats). This way I can look at a menu briefly and know right away where I'm at. (w/ stats = some trial 'n error, w/out = massive trial 'n error)
Most MMORPGs are all about stats. You have to choose the equipment that has the most + to your class' most commonly used stats. Everyone has to weigh the options and instead of choosing equipment they like, they keep the equipment with the best stats, regardless of how it looks. This is why everyone feels like a mindless clone. (EDIT: If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG.)
I don't see what's so wrong with trial and error. A game shouldn't rely so much on statistics, anyway. As Crazynuts24 stated, the person who plays better and utilizes his skills better should be victorious, in normal circumstances.
Those of us looking for an immersive game see getting rid of visible stats as a step in a positive direction, but power gamers are afraid of what they can't quantify. What a developer has to ask him/herself is, "What variety of player to I primarily want to encourage?"
I'd argue the opposite...Ever played CoH?
"If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG."
You will get this plus required searching.
Unless what you're recommending is that everyone is the same or don't get much of any choice... Visible stats is for casuals, hardcores may want more trial 'n error, because they actually have the time for it...(Don't even kid me with quantify...the players will figure it out. It just takes a hell lot longer = waste of time...)
Edit: Btw, I'm still having a hard time understanding how stat ruins immersion all that much. I can understand numbers floating in the middle of combat, and why that breaks immersion... Numbers are arbitrary measurements.
"If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG." You will get this plus required searching. Unless what you're recommending is that everyone is the same or don't get much of any choice... Visible stats is for casuals, hardcores may want more trial 'n error, because they actually have the time for it...(Don't even kid me with quantify...the players will figure it out. It just takes a hell lot longer = waste of time...)
I very much liked CoH, but I generally tend to speak in terms of fantasy MMORPGs. I believe different genres must answer some of these situations in different ways.
I'm very aware that power gamers will still find a way to quantify everything, but getting rid of that method of play is not what I'm after. What I'm interested in is catering to the players who want an immersive virtual world to explore and shape. (Yes, shape. Every player should have the potential to change the world in a way everyone can see.)
EDIT: In regards to your comment about everyone being the same, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. When new characters are created, many of them will be incredibly similar in countless aspects, but as they play there should be a multitude of ways a person can make their character grow in a completely different direction from 90% of other players.
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
see my above edited post... That's what I'm really really having a hard time understanding (that just seeing a number on a stat sheet really hits immersion all that much for you guys?)...
Edit: sorry last edit for this... This is a better question. Just how far is your Suspension of Disbelief? You can't suspend your disbelief for numbers(which exists in the real world) ?
I absolutely promote suspension of disbelief, because it benefits the enjoyment of the players and means less work for devs...
Player: "That's so fake...He should have lost 2 more drops of blood from that blow"
It's not seeing the numbers that effects immersion. What ruins immersion is the fact that everything revolves around numerical statistics. Weapons, armor, skills, spells, relationships, etc. All of these things are controlled by cold hard numbers and the more we rely on them the less immersive the game will be, simply because everything can and will be quantified and calculated. Why should we rely on numbers instead of relying on our senses and our instincts?
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
because numbers are only an abstract representation of what's going on...
Relying on intuition only goes so far, and that's why people created numbers, which can be replaced by any other form of representation. (Oh btw, I'm not really talking much about during combat or anything involving another person. I'm just saying it's nice to have a stats page, which can be represented by numbers or a diagram or etc., so that when you log in after awhile, you can look, and see where you are.)
Obviously, there's a bunch people (on this board) who sees the same view you do. I'm just going to have to accept that I suppose...
because numbers are only an abstract representation of what's going on... Relying on intuition only goes so far, and that's why people created numbers, which can be replaced by any other form of representation. (Oh btw, I'm not really talking much about during combat or anything involving another person. I'm just saying it's nice to have a stats page, which can be represented by numbers or a diagram or etc., so that when you log in after awhile, you can look, and see where you are.) Obviously, there's a bunch people (on this board) who sees the same view you do. I'm just going to have to accept that I suppose...
I don't think there's a need to abolish the stats page, so to speak. I just don't want to see things like:
HP: 230
MP: 128
STR: 12
AGI: 9
etc.
Displaying a person's abilities can be displayed in more realistic terms. For example:
Health: You feel healthy.
Endurance: You feel slightly tired.
Strength: You feel quite strong.
Agility: Your armor is weighing you down, decreasing your mobility.
I know it seems ridiculously similar in a logical sense, but by displaying the statistics in a more human way, you really can improve immersion.
In a generic MMORPG these days, a person may ask you, "How much HP/MP do you have?" Having been asked this you'll say, "230HP, 128MP." Now, would a person really say that? If someone asked you how you feel, would you say "I've got one hundred out of one hundred HP! Thanks for asking!" I doubt it.
If you do it my way, someone could ask you, "How are you feeling," and you can respond with confidence, "I feel healthy, but I'm a little tired. This armor is heavy, you know!"
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
I don't think there's a need to abolish the stats page, so to speak. I just don't want to see things like:
HP: 230
MP: 128
STR: 12
AGI: 9
etc.
Displaying a person's abilities can be displayed in more realistic terms. For example:
Health: You feel healthy.
Endurance: You feel slightly tired.
Strength: You feel quite strong.
Agility: Your armor is weighing you down, decreasing your mobility.
I know it seems ridiculously similar in a logical sense, but by displaying the statistics in a more human way, you really can improve immersion.
In a generic MMORPG these days, a person may ask you, "How much HP/MP do you have?" Having been asked this you'll say, "230HP, 128MP." Now, would a person really say that? If someone asked you how you feel, would you say "I've got one hundred out of one hundred HP! Thanks for asking!" I doubt it.
If you do it my way, someone could ask you, "How are you feeling," and you can respond with confidence, "I feel healthy, but I'm a little tired. This armor is heavy, you know!"
I agree totally. That would make it a whole lot more realistic and immersive. Only problem with that is that it's not so precise so you might make a slight error of judgement as to how much longer you can go on for. Maybe as well as the "You feel healthy" there should be a percentage, but I suppose that's adding numbers and causing unwanted headaches from doing quantum mathematics. What I'm basically saying is that in real life you would be able to feel exactly how hurt or tired you are, and you can't add that kind of realism into the game, so changing it from a number to a sentence may not be so good.
People are not good at knowing exactly how much farther they can push themselves... I mean, maybe I'm being a little too extreme, but I think having to use your best judgement makes the game more thrilling. If you're unsure of yourself then it will teach you to be more cautious and deliberate about what action you take. What's the fun if you can look at an enemy's level, look at your HP and, knowing how much HP you have, auto-attack and watch as you hack at each other until he/she/it dies?
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
People are not good at knowing exactly how much farther they can push themselves... I mean, maybe I'm being a little too extreme, but I think having to use your best judgement makes the game more thrilling. If you're unsure of yourself then it will teach you to be more cautious and deliberate about what action you take. What's the fun if you can look at an enemy's level, look at your HP and, knowing how much HP you have, auto-attack and watch as you hack at each other until he/she/it dies?
Well I suppose taking that risk and not really knowing if you're going to win or lose adds fun to the game. But if you see how powerful a monster is just by the look of it and no level displayed, then devs would have to make the more powerful monsters look more powerful and the weaker monsters look weaker. In many games the really high level monsters look exactly the same as the low level ones but just a different colour. For example, a level 2 average spider will look almost identical to a level 2 million insanely powerful dark spider of death and demise and more words beginning with D (not dentist). If it were the same with a game like that then you might easily mistake a malicious killer for something fairly weak that you could grind on.
But I suppose a lazy team could always have a 'look at' button for the enemy and gauge it's power against your own... You could look at the enemy and it would respond with something like, "It looks tough," or, "I looks pretty weak."
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
That's why I wouldn't use a level system. But I suppose a lazy team could always have a 'look at' button for the enemy and gauge it's power against your own... You could look at the enemy and it would respond with something like, "It looks tough," or, "I looks pretty weak."
But still, if you were grinding you probably wouldn't check every monster to make sure it isn't something that can kill you.
That's why I wouldn't use a level system. But I suppose a lazy team could always have a 'look at' button for the enemy and gauge it's power against your own... You could look at the enemy and it would respond with something like, "It looks tough," or, "I looks pretty weak."
But still, if you were grinding you probably wouldn't check every monster to make sure it isn't something that can kill you.
My dear friend! One must never grind! If someone feels that grinding is the best way to advance in the game, there is something wrong with the game.
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
While you, and several others reading might like this idea-- You'll notice it's still yet to be placed in a successful MMO.
I promise you, you aren't the first person to think up of this, it's toyed with in every new MMO development. Sure it'd be cool, but it's a fantasy world, it's how the genre's been played for so many years.
It's not incorporated into any successful MMO because it's not a popular idea. Most gamers don't want that kind of system, and as unfortunate as that is to the people that do, you have to make your game to appeal to the highest possible majority of gamers to be successful, it is a business afterall.
And the other side of the spectrum is latency.
You cannot base a MMO purely off skill until you can insure a level playing field for all, and while some people with their t3 internet connections might be fine, it won't appeal to the 90% of gamers on DSL//Cable, who don't want to have a 200 latency be the reason they died due to lack of "Skill"
The idea's you've had here are all awesome, but would cater to such a small population that I'd doubt it ever be a possibility, and if it were, it'd be on a 1990's engine, with a terribly staffed support crew, because the game wouldn't bring in enough money to support proper development.
And as far as the math goes-- PSH! Let them do the work, and just imitate what works best !! No math to hurt your head, and you still get to have a proper spec.
That's why I wouldn't use a level system. But I suppose a lazy team could always have a 'look at' button for the enemy and gauge it's power against your own... You could look at the enemy and it would respond with something like, "It looks tough," or, "I looks pretty weak."
But still, if you were grinding you probably wouldn't check every monster to make sure it isn't something that can kill you.
My dear friend! One must never grind! If someone feels that grinding is the best way to advance in the game, there is something wrong with the game.
Then what is the best way? Quests? If you're not careful, even quests can turn into grinds. You would need an exciting and unique quest each time, and ideas run dry eventually...
What's wrong with grinding? You never feel like throwing on a movie and just farming for money/items to chill out for an hour or so?
A lot of people enjoy that playstyle, I don't think that you should ever be restricted to questing.
That's one of the many things WoW hit right on the hammer IMO, was allowing grinding xp to be somewhat close to that of what you can gain questing; Opposed to DAoC where turning in one ten minute quest was the equiviliant to two hours of grinding
Comments
Student: "Why do we need to know this stuff?"
Math teacher" "To play MMOs, silly."
I believe in the KISS principle when looking at MMORPG issues. I believe the next MMORPG that makes it big will be skill based and incorporate a dps system in which everyone outputs the same dps regardless of class makeup. Getting gutted by a large sword should hurt just as bad as being incinerated by a fire spell. It is silly to see two weapons that are virtually the same in appereance be a world apart when looking at their stats and that ruins the level of immersion that a player could delve into.
The focus should definitely stray away from the mathematical model (and other models such as grinding for xp, factions, etc) and instead move towards skill based play. I find it especially annoying how defensive characters such as priests (from all types of mmorpgs) have no real offensive means to tackle pure offensive classes or how offensive classes have no real defensive means to use against other offensive classes (example guild wars, some types of mages have no chance in hell against an assasin). I believe that it should be 50/50 all the way with whatever class mashup and let the player who plays better and best utilize his skills win.
Okay let me get this straight here...
Does a stat sheet somehow talk and lure you into looking at it? It's in a separate menu and nothing says you have to look at it...
What the other guy says about wanting to nitpick and find everything out when he see's the stats, let me say that doesn't happen to me. I need the stat for precision, if it's necessary like when reaching a certain number will give a certain amount of bonus (otherwise if precision isn't necessary, I'd want at least a polygonal diagram of the distribution of my stats). This way I can look at a menu briefly and know right away where I'm at.
(w/ stats = some trial 'n error, w/out = massive trial 'n error)
You hardly have to think about stats in WoW at all. The only place you really need good equipment for instances is at the end of the game and then they give you sets so it's not hard to pick out what you need. You have talent points, but that doesn't have anything to do with math really. Some games actually let you choose what stats to disbribute points into at level up amoungst other things. Those type of games are usually to much for people to handle.
I don't think you were playing the WoW I was playing.
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Atleast you aren't solving any math equations with an airplane symbol in it.
Most MMORPGs are all about stats. You have to choose the equipment that has the most + to your class' most commonly used stats. Everyone has to weigh the options and instead of choosing equipment they like, they keep the equipment with the best stats, regardless of how it looks. This is why everyone feels like a mindless clone. (EDIT: If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG.)
I don't see what's so wrong with trial and error. A game shouldn't rely so much on statistics, anyway. As Crazynuts24 stated, the person who plays better and utilizes his skills better should be victorious, in normal circumstances.
Those of us looking for an immersive game see getting rid of visible stats as a step in a positive direction, but power gamers are afraid of what they can't quantify. What a developer has to ask him/herself is, "What variety of player to I primarily want to encourage?"
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
Props to you
Most MMORPGs are all about stats. You have to choose the equipment that has the most + to your class' most commonly used stats. Everyone has to weigh the options and instead of choosing equipment they like, they keep the equipment with the best stats, regardless of how it looks. This is why everyone feels like a mindless clone. (EDIT: If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG.)
I don't see what's so wrong with trial and error. A game shouldn't rely so much on statistics, anyway. As Crazynuts24 stated, the person who plays better and utilizes his skills better should be victorious, in normal circumstances.
Those of us looking for an immersive game see getting rid of visible stats as a step in a positive direction, but power gamers are afraid of what they can't quantify. What a developer has to ask him/herself is, "What variety of player to I primarily want to encourage?"
I'd argue the opposite...Ever played CoH?
"If you don't choose the equipment with the best stats you won't be able to compete as mobs and instances get more challenging, and your party members won't like having you around if you're weak. It's required reading in virtually every MMORPG."
You will get this plus required searching.
Unless what you're recommending is that everyone is the same or don't get much of any choice... Visible stats is for casuals, hardcores may want more trial 'n error, because they actually have the time for it...(Don't even kid me with quantify...the players will figure it out. It just takes a hell lot longer = waste of time...)
Edit: Btw, I'm still having a hard time understanding how stat ruins immersion all that much. I can understand numbers floating in the middle of combat, and why that breaks immersion... Numbers are arbitrary measurements.
scientist: "That's 50 newtons of Force"
villager: "OMG it is de Witchcraftz!"
?
I very much liked CoH, but I generally tend to speak in terms of fantasy MMORPGs. I believe different genres must answer some of these situations in different ways.I'm very aware that power gamers will still find a way to quantify everything, but getting rid of that method of play is not what I'm after. What I'm interested in is catering to the players who want an immersive virtual world to explore and shape. (Yes, shape. Every player should have the potential to change the world in a way everyone can see.)
EDIT: In regards to your comment about everyone being the same, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. When new characters are created, many of them will be incredibly similar in countless aspects, but as they play there should be a multitude of ways a person can make their character grow in a completely different direction from 90% of other players.
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
see my above edited post... That's what I'm really really having a hard time understanding (that just seeing a number on a stat sheet really hits immersion all that much for you guys?)...
Edit: sorry last edit for this... This is a better question. Just how far is your Suspension of Disbelief? You can't suspend your disbelief for numbers(which exists in the real world) ?
I absolutely promote suspension of disbelief, because it benefits the enjoyment of the players and means less work for devs...
Player: "That's so fake...He should have lost 2 more drops of blood from that blow"
It's not seeing the numbers that effects immersion. What ruins immersion is the fact that everything revolves around numerical statistics. Weapons, armor, skills, spells, relationships, etc. All of these things are controlled by cold hard numbers and the more we rely on them the less immersive the game will be, simply because everything can and will be quantified and calculated. Why should we rely on numbers instead of relying on our senses and our instincts?
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
because numbers are only an abstract representation of what's going on...
Relying on intuition only goes so far, and that's why people created numbers, which can be replaced by any other form of representation. (Oh btw, I'm not really talking much about during combat or anything involving another person. I'm just saying it's nice to have a stats page, which can be represented by numbers or a diagram or etc., so that when you log in after awhile, you can look, and see where you are.)
Obviously, there's a bunch people (on this board) who sees the same view you do. I'm just going to have to accept that I suppose...
I don't think there's a need to abolish the stats page, so to speak. I just don't want to see things like:
HP: 230
MP: 128
STR: 12
AGI: 9
etc.
Displaying a person's abilities can be displayed in more realistic terms. For example:
Health: You feel healthy.
Endurance: You feel slightly tired.
Strength: You feel quite strong.
Agility: Your armor is weighing you down, decreasing your mobility.
I know it seems ridiculously similar in a logical sense, but by displaying the statistics in a more human way, you really can improve immersion.
In a generic MMORPG these days, a person may ask you, "How much HP/MP do you have?" Having been asked this you'll say, "230HP, 128MP." Now, would a person really say that? If someone asked you how you feel, would you say "I've got one hundred out of one hundred HP! Thanks for asking!" I doubt it.
If you do it my way, someone could ask you, "How are you feeling," and you can respond with confidence, "I feel healthy, but I'm a little tired. This armor is heavy, you know!"
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
I agree that's how people talk in real life...
There's similar things like that usually for those pet games. And TBH, I'm not too crazy about that. But whatever floats your boat...
I don't think there's a need to abolish the stats page, so to speak. I just don't want to see things like:
HP: 230
MP: 128
STR: 12
AGI: 9
etc.
Displaying a person's abilities can be displayed in more realistic terms. For example:
Health: You feel healthy.
Endurance: You feel slightly tired.
Strength: You feel quite strong.
Agility: Your armor is weighing you down, decreasing your mobility.
I know it seems ridiculously similar in a logical sense, but by displaying the statistics in a more human way, you really can improve immersion.
In a generic MMORPG these days, a person may ask you, "How much HP/MP do you have?" Having been asked this you'll say, "230HP, 128MP." Now, would a person really say that? If someone asked you how you feel, would you say "I've got one hundred out of one hundred HP! Thanks for asking!" I doubt it.
If you do it my way, someone could ask you, "How are you feeling," and you can respond with confidence, "I feel healthy, but I'm a little tired. This armor is heavy, you know!"
I agree totally. That would make it a whole lot more realistic and immersive. Only problem with that is that it's not so precise so you might make a slight error of judgement as to how much longer you can go on for. Maybe as well as the "You feel healthy" there should be a percentage, but I suppose that's adding numbers and causing unwanted headaches from doing quantum mathematics. What I'm basically saying is that in real life you would be able to feel exactly how hurt or tired you are, and you can't add that kind of realism into the game, so changing it from a number to a sentence may not be so good.It still is an awesome idea, mind.
Qaze - Atheist, Nihilist, Sadist.
WinRAR.rar
Mudkip Video
People are not good at knowing exactly how much farther they can push themselves... I mean, maybe I'm being a little too extreme, but I think having to use your best judgement makes the game more thrilling. If you're unsure of yourself then it will teach you to be more cautious and deliberate about what action you take. What's the fun if you can look at an enemy's level, look at your HP and, knowing how much HP you have, auto-attack and watch as you hack at each other until he/she/it dies?
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
Well I suppose taking that risk and not really knowing if you're going to win or lose adds fun to the game. But if you see how powerful a monster is just by the look of it and no level displayed, then devs would have to make the more powerful monsters look more powerful and the weaker monsters look weaker. In many games the really high level monsters look exactly the same as the low level ones but just a different colour. For example, a level 2 average spider will look almost identical to a level 2 million insanely powerful dark spider of death and demise and more words beginning with D (not dentist). If it were the same with a game like that then you might easily mistake a malicious killer for something fairly weak that you could grind on.
Qaze - Atheist, Nihilist, Sadist.
WinRAR.rar
Mudkip Video
That's why I wouldn't use a level system.
But I suppose a lazy team could always have a 'look at' button for the enemy and gauge it's power against your own... You could look at the enemy and it would respond with something like, "It looks tough," or, "I looks pretty weak."
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
But still, if you were grinding you probably wouldn't check every monster to make sure it isn't something that can kill you.
Qaze - Atheist, Nihilist, Sadist.
WinRAR.rar
Mudkip Video
But still, if you were grinding you probably wouldn't check every monster to make sure it isn't something that can kill you.
My dear friend! One must never grind! If someone feels that grinding is the best way to advance in the game, there is something wrong with the game.
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Lodeclaw, here's the problem
While you, and several others reading might like this idea-- You'll notice it's still yet to be placed in a successful MMO.
I promise you, you aren't the first person to think up of this, it's toyed with in every new MMO development. Sure it'd be cool, but it's a fantasy world, it's how the genre's been played for so many years.
It's not incorporated into any successful MMO because it's not a popular idea. Most gamers don't want that kind of system, and as unfortunate as that is to the people that do, you have to make your game to appeal to the highest possible majority of gamers to be successful, it is a business afterall.
And the other side of the spectrum is latency.
You cannot base a MMO purely off skill until you can insure a level playing field for all, and while some people with their t3 internet connections might be fine, it won't appeal to the 90% of gamers on DSL//Cable, who don't want to have a 200 latency be the reason they died due to lack of "Skill"
The idea's you've had here are all awesome, but would cater to such a small population that I'd doubt it ever be a possibility, and if it were, it'd be on a 1990's engine, with a terribly staffed support crew, because the game wouldn't bring in enough money to support proper development.
And as far as the math goes-- PSH! Let them do the work, and just imitate what works best !! No math to hurt your head, and you still get to have a proper spec.
But still, if you were grinding you probably wouldn't check every monster to make sure it isn't something that can kill you.
My dear friend! One must never grind! If someone feels that grinding is the best way to advance in the game, there is something wrong with the game.
Then what is the best way? Quests? If you're not careful, even quests can turn into grinds. You would need an exciting and unique quest each time, and ideas run dry eventually...
Qaze - Atheist, Nihilist, Sadist.
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What's wrong with grinding? You never feel like throwing on a movie and just farming for money/items to chill out for an hour or so?
A lot of people enjoy that playstyle, I don't think that you should ever be restricted to questing.
That's one of the many things WoW hit right on the hammer IMO, was allowing grinding xp to be somewhat close to that of what you can gain questing; Opposed to DAoC where turning in one ten minute quest was the equiviliant to two hours of grinding