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Online Fee's
Lidale
Member Posts: 88
They basically want you to pay $10 a month for an online component guild ways gives you which is way better and free. Definately a buying factor for me and the reason I did not preorder the game. To basically get alot of the cool online features such as hardcore mode you need to pay.... really does not make any sense what so ever in a game like this.
Comments
Exactly
HGL is a cool casual hack and slash game. In my oppinion it is not better ( or worse ) than Guild Wars (also made by makers of Diablo)
Question is
If GuildWars would require subscription to let say access better skills and higher level dungeons , would so many play it , and would it be such huge success ? I believe not.
So why is HGL a game not superior to GW (or even a regular MMO) thinking it is worth subscription ... i dont know.
I bet , HGL will not meet comercial sucess it planed because of this issue , and in close future we will see subscription discontinued - and HGL will go to good time tested buisness model of GW
If only EA was not so money greedy
I agree 100% the only viable reason i can see the monthly fee is SUPPOSEDLY they will be giving free expansion type content over time. Although that still doesn't really make it AWSOME... i will still play HGL i'm still gonna pay the 10$... 10$ a month really isn't that much if 10$ a month is killing your bank account maybe games in general should be put on hold for a while lol.
I agree though this game could have deffinitly been a F2P completely and probably would have met with alot more success. Dunno why they did it at all. I mean from a buisness standpoint it makes sense cause tons of people will still buy it not knowing about the P2P from the box i'm sure. Not to mention the people who don't really care about any of the stuff they're missing out on without paying.
The game will by no means BOMB as i feel it's a pretty decent game which is deffinitly enjoyable to play. Though with P2P games like RFonline deciding that free to play is just a must with games that arn't BIG competitors in the mainstream consumer market. I don't see HGL succeeding in making tons of players P2P.
I play Guild Wars and though they dont have a monthly subscription they get you on their games. Now I love GW and still play it, but unfortunately they still dip into your pocket books.
Prophecies ............ $29.99 now + Prophecies PvP Edition $39.99 (unlocks all skills + elites)
Factions ................. $39.99 now + Factions PvP Edition $39.99 (unlocks all skills + elites)
Nightfall ................. $49.99 now + Nightfall PvP Edition $39.99 (unlocks all skills + elites)
GW:EN ................... $39.99 now
Extra Character Slot $9.99
Now the original campaign came out in 04/26/05 so the makers of Guild Wars knew how to get into your pocket books a different way than charging you a certain monthly fee. If you added all those other games to your original campaign you would get over 2 years of $10 subscriptions monthly. Unless you want to use the standard $14.99 a month, then it would be less.
If you went into GW with just prophecies, you will be missing alot of the other classes. skill unlocks, new content and plenty other pvp essentials. The other GW games are not mandatory to play, but if you want to experience GW at its finest, well you gotta get the other games. But I am pretty sure alot of you know this by now.
I agree.Until they show what kind of content youre getting for your fee,I cant really see the point of the subscription. Currently you get 2 harder modes of play,a larger stash and more character slots.
Considering most people havent even played the beta,which in itself will have been made easier for testing purposes,why would you decide that the elite mode is the way to go? And why upon release would anyone need 24 character slots? The only worthwhile thing is the larger stash,but im not really going to shell out £7 a month for that...
And lastly:
Achievements Update
Remember those Achievements we talked about in our Patch 0 and Subscriber update? Well, rather than it being a subscriber-only feature, we're opening this up to everyone. Bragging right for all!
Consider that the pvp is also 'free'. So exactly what are you getting for your money now?A bigger bank and a further 2 hardcore modes for a game no-one knows the difficulty of. Ill be holding off sub until they show me something worth paying almost as much as I would for a traditional MMO..
For myself 10$ is certanly not lot.
But i have problem with subscriptions from Credit Card. That is why i perfer to buy the game , and thats simply it.
I choose carefully who gets my CC and basically open credit (just think of all CC scams and failures in last years .. horisons , dark and light..etc) Also , in Europe(and in other places) , many CC's are not accepted for online games. Another problem...
So you see
online subscription is not only 10 or 15 $ ... it is often unwanted risk / burden.
This is why i perfere GW buisness model , and I wouldnt mind even if HGL would cost 100$ but withouth fees
In all fairness the cost of the exp and skills is kinda trivial cause you have to pay for HGL, and other games don't release expansion for free e.g TBC, furthermore lol you can unlock those skills by simply playing a lot of PVP or the PVE side so I think NcSoft have really charged us peanuts.
Now we have HGL who have tried a tactic of trying to appeal to every1. On one hand you have the F2P side of the game where mabye the casual gamers might be interested, but I think what they are trying to do is to pull you into the elite subscription by especially the hard mode. I personally loved GW but lets face it, the games had its days and there's a hell a lot of time before GW2 so I think HGL'll be a nice fill before Warhammer Online.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
[Quote]According to the details reprinted by Hellgate Guru, Hellgate: London online players will have the option of paying a $9.95 monthly fee for an Elite subscription, which confers a number of advantages over the standard free online membership. For their payment, Elite subscribers will receive 12 character slots rather than three, access to a Diablo II-esque Hardcore mode, the freedom to bypass server queues, account-wide storage for 40 items (as opposed to 20 items for non-Elites), permission to create guilds and attain officer status, distinguishing Elite features and Elite-only equipment, in-game VIP shuttles, and 24-hour customer support. Elite and non-Elite players may interact fully within the game world, and non-Elite players may join guilds.[/quote]
This is a direct quote of what will be available to paying customers vs. non-paying customers from Shacknews. Personally, this doesn't seem to make the game appealing to me. What worries me is the wording about server queues. With the game as it is, it already appears to have severe network issues, based on what is posted in their own forums. Their solution is to throttle the number of players allowed on the server. So, if paying customers bypass the queue, that means non-paying customers will have to wait and will continually be pushed further into the queue as more paying customers log on. So it's conceivable that a non-paying customer not be allowed to play the online component of the game, even though they still have access to the single player mode. Of course, this is a worst case scenario.
Next is the customer support. If this is in-game support, non-paying customers will likely be screwed when they have a problem. Imagine not being able to play the game because of some bug that prevents you from moving. Now imagine that it's 1 am and in-game support is only available from 9-5 weekdays. This is an extreme example, but one that should bring the point across. Again, you're prevented from being able to play a game you paid for.
I was thinking about buying this game, but none of the stuff they offer besides what I pointed out really interests me. I'm interested in playing with a couple of my friends, like Diablo, and when I've beaten the game, that's it. I likely won't play it again. I am jaded, perhaps, but this game simply doesn't have the ability to hold my interest like it might have once did. It's simply a grindfest of trying to get the best equipment through random drops, with no real goal. And if I can't play the game when I want with my friends, then what's the point of playing it?
Just a few things, twhint.
I read the subscriber's accounts has been increased to 24 slots. I'm assuming because of this, there is not going to be an option to respec. Plenty of room for different builds, and it means the free players are going to have to be more picky, but logic would say they're the casual crowd anyway.
As far as the queue goes, I believe the follow up was along the lines of "we don't envision server queues, but if it happens then subscribers will get some sort of priority, be it placed in the middle of the line or something else". If there are enough subscribers to make queues a nuisance to the free accounts, there will likely be enough profit to increase server capacity.
We all have a view on what and when we want to pay for a video game. I think they've done a good job setting up the parameters, but they better back it up with some worthwhile content, or those likely to pay at the start will bail soon enough.
I suspect diferent thing
1. EA will create fake server queues to encourage people to pay subscription
2. Only nightmare mode will bring relevant xp and items - nonsub players are locked out of this mode
- this will make grouping between nonsub and sub players unwanted. And nonsub players will only group
with each other , but since they can not create guilds they will have hard time finding people to group with.
3. Nonsub players will be locked out from relevant and good gear
I know this sounds far fetched, but we are talking EA here
you also only get content updates if you pay. First off.
1. Servers are expensive to run, and theres no way AT&T would be coerced into running servers out of the kindness of their hearts like for d2. Guild wars uses expansions to fund it, and even then it might not have been the best decision for them, seeing as how they are making gw2 as a normal mmorpg. But i've seen it said somewhere that the in game ads will be what's mainly paying for the servers not your 10$.
2. Your paying for the content to be made. By allowing fees in the game, it will allow for content to be produced. I know it's a foreign concept to pay for content. But you have to realize that hellgate is not a mmorpg truely. It is a dungeon crawler ala diablo 2 or titan quest. And look at those games, how much content has been added to d2 beyond the expansion? not that much. How many patches come out for titan quest? Not many. Without fees the team will make a xpac and that's that. Would that be better?
3. It's not required to pay the fee. And they expect people not to. Which is why they made it appealing, it's how they are affording to keep a development team working on the game. Nobody can say if it's going to be worth it or not, we just have to wait and see.
Regardless, would you people be complaining if they charged 15 bucks just to play the game at all? because they could, but instead they give you the option of paying 10$ for a elite account. yet they still will let you play online and offline for free(though limited).
Personally i'll be paying the 10$ for a few months and if i value it, then i'll continue on.
Well said Bladin...
Now the way I look at it as well.
No more free rides anymore when it comes to any online gaming. The market is changing and there always going to be a catch 22 situtation. You as a subscriber can either put up or shut up. Its the players choice whether they take there gaming experience to the next level or decide to move on.
I dont have a problem with any game out there that requires a fee, I can just as easily stop payments when I get bored with the product. But however, if the game keeps my attention and I enjoy it. Hell, why not. Some people like slot machines, playing cards, pool, darts and this definetly costs you money to play for enjoyment and rewards. Some people like to analogy things, this is probably best way I understand it.
Oh well
Whatever. I guess some people will fall for anything. And buy everything if its packaged in shiny wrapper.
Can not say i blame you guys. After all you have been conditioned to do so , since you are born.
Nobody cares about value anymore. Diablo and Diablo 2 - had very same server requirements - and it was in time when holding servers was much more expensive than now. And yet Blizzard never seen fit to ask monthly fee for it. Guild Wars gave us fantastic multiplayer - withouth need for subscription , and still came out as superbly profitable venture for NCsoft.
But people at EA thought otherwise
"Why should we give something for free (like others), when there is large group of people that we can sucker to pay."
Well, i am not paying for something that used to be free - no mather if its 10$ or 1 cent
Blizzards entire server was basically funded and ran by AT&T the reason blizzard didn't charge is because they weren't the ones paying for the major load. If you look it up there were also other battle.net partners.
Guild wars Released full price expansions, for a total of 4(counting base) but what people neglect to mention is that the way the game is designed people will play off and on and buy xpacs at their leisure, generally much less actual time playing the game while paying for xpacs(which are pretty much required tbh) So while on average(i think it's the numbers im not gonna actually check) to play from release to today around 5$ a month. But how many people played from release to now, and how many people who liked guild wars got all the xpacs? i'd say the average person who plays guild wars probably would have averaged about 10-30$ a month total of total played time vs the cost of the boxes.
You think it's "free" but it's all just how it's marketed.
Your also forgetting something else i asked.
Would you be happy with hellgate getting as much content as diablo 2 throughout it's entire life cycle? 1 Content release, and then just patches/tweaks/minor gameplay additions?
Or titan quest with about 5 patches with just fixes(no content) and 1 xpac, and that's it?
This 10$ subscription is how hellgate plans to support further development. Do you think any company would make a team to just make content for you for free? It's a company not some other gamers doing it for fun.
What are we comparing it to? These days everything is going to cost you. Look at oblivion for example. It's a single player game, and the little content features are all just bought packages. Look at xbox live, extra maps and patches are all bought. Look at steam, former "free" mods are going to be bought as well.
Neverwinter nights charges for extra modules... etc etc, you see where i'm going with this. New content is always going to cost money. This is the future(though unfortunate) of games.
When it comes down to it.
"Nothing is ever free"
Do you think yourself a rebel? Yes we have grown to accept it, because that's how it's going to be. Idealistic people will spout of the "Let's show them we won't accept their fees!" We won't be getting free content if developers realize we won't pay. They just won't make the content at all.
Subscriber funded cheat-free secure servers a la HL:G, now THAT is value.
Here we disagree
I think that companies like EA are constantly probing the market trying to find and push the limit.
By agreeing to pay for something that used to be free before , we are just giving them excuse to go on and make the next attempt.
Here we disagree
I think that companies like EA are constantly probing the market trying to find and push the limit.
By agreeing to pay for something that used to be free before , we are just giving them excuse to go on and make the next attempt.
I'll agree that there are limits to how far much we should accept, but you have to realzie that gaming is now a lucrative business vs a new market. How many people between 10-40 own at least one console, or home pc(and game on it) compared to how many used to back in say 1998. I'd bet cash that the market is far larger and broader.
Beyond just developers realizing that theres a wide market for a variety of games, but it's also tons of money for the producers and the higher ups of gaming companies which are generally people who have NO experience or like for games.
The issue with hellgate and its controversy is how the actual game is designed.
It's not just a single player game
It's not just a mmorpg
It's not just a online game.
It's a mix of all 3, but not all of one of the other. That's what makes people upset
first off.
1. The ads will pay for the servers, this will allow people to choose to play online for free, if there weren't any ads i could see online being a required pay component or at least a larger fee.
2. The 10$ fee will help cover the cost of content development, and provide them some buffer for server costs if they ever need it.
3. You can play the entire single player game free, and play online for free. If you pay you get new content and "special features". I think that's pretty fair. If you don't want to pay a dime you don't have to, but you can't expect to get the same features someone who does pay gets.
So i really don't consider it that much of a "rip-off". But at the same time, people don't like monthly fees, and it's not a "real" mmorpg so that's a notch off. Some people may think of it as a single player game and not justify paying for that. And some people will relate it to something like counter strike, and again not feel justified in paying.
I really have no grounds to argue besides "it's a fair plan" because nobody knows how fast how big or often the content will come out.
*edit* you could equate the fee to being a cash shop in a f2p mmorpg. It basically is what it is. You pay for special things that people who don't pay won't get.
Well, Bladin, this is the reality of the situation.
1. You can claim about the servers being expensive to run, content being paid for, etc. But let's really look at that statement. They're running ads in the game. Ads pay big money, especially if they have a way of telling how many people are viewing those ads. I'm willing to bet that with the number of people who play the game, they can equate that to number of people viewing the ad, which converts into very real dollars that can then be used to pay toward the upkeep of servers and bandwidth quite easily, neither of which is as expensive as you seem to think. As far as content being paid for, developers have used the retail sale of the box to pay for development costs, past and future. Here, they're looking for it to be concurrent, so that they can stay in the black all the time and basically gain even more profit. I won't fault them for that because it's really too early to be saying it's good or bad. If I ran a company, I'd want some guarantee I made my money back as well and never had to pay out of my pocket again. But they need to be putting out a lot of content, ie. new game type of content, otherwise you're simply paying $30-40 for an expansion pack that other games would charge $20 for, and that's if they stick to their own schedule and don't 'cut and run'. Again, this is a 'wait and see'.
2. 'Special features'. Well, this is a subjective term, isn't it? PvP, storage capacity, player slots, 'Hardcore mode'. Hm...to think that you get that for free in other games. Anti-cheat? Hm...punkbuster does that all the time yet doesn't charge me for it. Again, this isn't a very good incentive of why I should pay extra.
You equate this to the 'cash' shop in other games, but miss the point entirely. They're not the same. In those games you have access to the full game. In this one, you do not. There are too many unanswered questions about the game. Basically it comes down to faith and I just don't have the faith in these guys to be paying a monthly fee for something of dubious value. For me, I want to play the game with a couple of friends. I could care less about PvP. The auction house could be held in a forum, so the inclusion ingame is of little consequence. I don't really care about mowing mindlessly through unintelligent mobs, so 'hardcore' mode doesn't really do anything for me. Ideally, this game would have a LAN component, where I didn't have to worry about having to run on their servers or anything like that. Nothing in their plan shows me that it's a good value to me, because I simply don't care about what they're advertising.
And yes, I don't have to pay. I understand that. But if I'm going to pay $50-60 for a game, I'd like to know I'm getting the full game. I also like to know that I can play it when I want, whereas if they institute server queues, then that will hamper that.
I guess basically it comes down to perceived value, which will be different for each person. For me, the extra money is not justified and I'm willing to bet for a lot of others, which is why you're seeing the uproar.
FSS is trying to satisfy two consumer groups; I find it hard to fathom how anyone can have any serious problems with their current model. It might not be ideal for either group, but what part of it is so offensive to keep a "target" customer from buying the game?
The thing is, people are thinking "they are holding stuff back from us just to charge us extra!"
This is far from the truth, if you knew anything about development, developers don't just say "go make us some levels". They set goals for people to reach.
With the decision to offer more content over time for additional fees, it allows more time for the team to make other stuff. So while being done before release, it was made with the budget of the predicted income of the following months.
I think you guys are missing the point , especially you Bladin. I do respect your oppinion and you do talk sence...but
Remember that we are talking EA here.
The company that even charges you for holding your own server. (i am talking about Battlefield)
As i said in original post.
I have nothing against EA charging for some additional online features. Just like Item shops , it is ok by me.
What i fear , and belive HGL will turn out to be diferent.
Non subscribers will get very raw deal , in a way EA will make sure that the game is almost unplayable (online) if you are non subscriber. I noted the reasons in original post, and i will not repeat them.
So what do you get for just 50$ than ?
1. Another Diablo clone (singleplayer) - sorry there is at least 10 other much better games coming out now
2. Limited online playability
And with online fees ?
You get more than limited instanced ORPG. For just 5$ more you get DDO that plays almost the same.
Or any other MMO that has tons more content
Well...
For me clearly EA greedines has and will destroy this game.
thats all
Wow. Do you even understand how much it actually costs to host a game server? Of course EA will make you pay for a RANKED server slot; at anytime, and for free, you can start your own unranked server from your computer. However, this is how the business model works for this particular title (and virtually every single online FPS game which hosts statistics, awards, ribbons, unlocks, ranks, etc).
Let me try to spell out how this all works for this business model, so I don't have to read another one of your "EA is the devil" posts (and there have been a few from you, so far). I'm not defending EA, I'm just trying to educate you here.
FPS product has a box cost of $50 - standard game cost, it hasn't changed in years. This gets you: offline/singleplayer client gameplay, and online/multiplayer client/unranked/ranked gameplay. This means that your client can connect to any server on the internet that is hosting the title and you can play all your want (unless you get banned from that particular server). Statistics, awards, item unlocks, your character ranks, etc are all tracked on public-available servers that are hosted by the someone - This cost money! But fear not, you do not pay extra to get ranks, and item upgrades, and cool awards. This is all included in your $50. Want more? Wait for the $20-$40 expansion, a'la Northern Strike for Battlefield 2142 (as an example).
If you wish to create your own server and have friends play with you, go ahead, the game allows it! Your server, however, will be UNRANKED. This means that any actions that take place on your server will not be uploaded to the ranked statistics or count towards awards, unlocks, ranks, etc. Why? Because it costs money to host and support the ranked statistics. It takes a back-end infrastructure and personnel and it all costs money. Want your server to be ranked so that your stats get uploaded? Pay the fee to get hooked up to their ranked system.
Now, I'm going to flip this around and stop talking about Battlefield xx42 (or even Enemy Territory: Quake Wars - which runs on the SAME business model) and replace its name with Hellgate. Ready?
Product cost $50. You get offline/singleplayer client gameplay, and online/multiplayer client gameplay. You get 3 character slots, six classes, and a good-sized bank slot. You get access to differing difficulty levels of play, and access to every piece of content on your product DVD. Somewhat slower connection queues to the servers (which cost the hosting company bandwidth)Period. That's what you get for buying the product.
If you wish to subscribe to the game you will obtain the following: More content as it is created by the development staff (this could be maps, entire acts/campaigns, classes, etc); faster connection queues to the servers (which cost the hosting company bandwidth), more character slots, access to Elite content mode, etc. See? This does not infringe on your gameplay at all as a nonsubscribing player.
In the end, you get what you pay for. You are not getting ripped off by not subscribing. You get MORE if you do subscribe but they are not crippling the game or the gameplay just because you don't. Sure there are ads in the stations. However, the ads help furnish the server and hosting costs for nonsubscribers (because it cost money to run those servers - Think of the servers as RANKED for the FPS genre) - And the ads are almost unnoticable anyways unless you are really looking for them.
Hmm, imho you guys are missing a very important point here - the distinction between psychological and practical ramifications of this model.
Psychologically this model sucks in comparison to GW one. People want to own things. When you buy a nice shiny box you are secure in the knowledge that you own that content from now till kingdom come.
However, the subscription for additional content model is actually beneficial to players from a practical (read $$$) standpoint...
- For measly 10$ you get ALL THE ADDITIONAL CONTENT published so far. If I joined GW now I'd have to dish out 120$+ to get all the stuff.
- With some math and taking into account the periods you didn't actually play (vacations, exams etc) you'll find that this model will actually cost less money per day/played than GW.
- You can discontinue your subscription for whatever reason but you can still stay active in the game. People do take breaks from games and return to them. I see this as an opportunity to meet with game pals occasionally and have some casual fun using the original content. In WoW for example the second your subscription runs out - it's like you're dead, out, kaputt.
- Continuous additions of new content - since the expansion team has a stable revenue stream they can produce new stuff regularly... From the company's standpoint (GW i.e. ) each new expansion is a risk - first you spend the money on development then hope it'll sell enough to make a profit. The HG:L model allows the company to keep a permanent expansion staff, pay them from subscriptions and churn out regular expansions without any risk to their profits. The FSS announced that they'll have mini-expansions (like new bosses and items) monthly and big ones (on pair with GW expansions, with new regions and classes) every three months... regularly... like clockwork... and I believe them because their business model allows them to do so.
However, being only human I do have my misgivings on the model. I too like to OWN things, to have them ALL MINE... forever... On the other hand people used to perceive money as gold hidden in buried chests and now we can't imagine our lives without credit cards. So I suppose we can get used to this MMO payment model as well.
The thing is, people are thinking "they are holding stuff back from us just to charge us extra!"
This is far from the truth, if you knew anything about development, developers don't just say "go make us some levels". They set goals for people to reach.
With the decision to offer more content over time for additional fees, it allows more time for the team to make other stuff. So while being done before release, it was made with the budget of the predicted income of the following months.
You're incorrect in a number of your statements and making blanket statements, which makes me doubt your credibility. People are questioning the entire business model. As it is, it's too early to tell if they are holding anything back. If the game has a defined end point, then they can see they aren't holding anything back. If it doesn't, then it'll just make the game seem like a quick 'grab and run' ploy. As has been brought up, GW is already running the same exact model without online fees. And they are doing it successfully. So that brings up the question of why should we pay for HGL, and honestly, that question has not been adequately answered in any form. Instead, they are showing us differences, which will, of course, lead to comparisons and exclamations that they are gimping 'free' players in favor of paying ones.
Guild Wars runs "without service fees" due to the fact they make their money licensing their technologies to other developers who are under NCSoft. The end player of GW doesn't see this cost but please don't act like they are running it for box cost + 0
They make plenty of money on those 150$+ in expansions/original game for 1 account and they are also closing down GW some time in the near future from what I understand to release GW2.
No content is released outside of an expansion in their model. None the less in the end each game has its money being made one way or the other.