Seems to me your just being negative for the sake of negativity. If you kill your enemy 30 times, he's just gonna have a lot less blood money then you. But of course he's gonna come back at the same strength, because, on the regular servers at least, there is no item looting. How exactly is this different then any other modern MMOG? It is not, that is kinda my point really. AoC is spinned as being different than the other MMO's out there but basically it is just the same old s*** with new wrapping. Blood money = honorpoints Admit as much. I'll personally be entering the PvP zone in AoC to help my guild win a Battle Keep or Tower, or both, maybe even some resource nodes. I'll at least hire myself out as a mercenary so I can participate in such battles. IMHO theres a lot at stake in AoC's PvP. You could definitely hurt your enemy. They could spend a month building their guild's keep, adding to it, increasing it's strengths, to loose it on the battlefield in a few hours time to you and your guild. That'll hurt them indeed. I would say most of an guild's assets would be invested in their cities, not in their towers. So the hurtin' part I am not so sure of. If you can loose a tower in a couple of hours, chances are you can take it back just as easily. As long as your enemy is not hurt, the one with the biggest number of zergs will win. No skill nor tactics needed. The only thing that will regulate this fact is fake server rules like "you cannot attack a keep unless 2-3 hours have passed or whatever. This adds consequences to AoC's high-end PvP. Much more so then the HK grind and 'take over a few static locations every 2 minutes' of WoW. Well, that part of AoC hasn't been demostrated as far as I know outside the betas, protected by NDA. So sorry, if I don't take your word for it.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Xris375
Originally posted by Fion
Seems to me your just being negative for the sake of negativity. If you kill your enemy 30 times, he's just gonna have a lot less blood money then you. But of course he's gonna come back at the same strength, because, on the regular servers at least, there is no item looting. How exactly is this different then any other modern MMOG? It is not, that is kinda my point really. AoC is spinned as being different than the other MMO's out there but basically it is just the same old s*** with new wrapping. Blood money = honorpoints Admit as much. I'll personally be entering the PvP zone in AoC to help my guild win a Battle Keep or Tower, or both, maybe even some resource nodes. I'll at least hire myself out as a mercenary so I can participate in such battles. IMHO theres a lot at stake in AoC's PvP. You could definitely hurt your enemy. They could spend a month building their guild's keep, adding to it, increasing it's strengths, to loose it on the battlefield in a few hours time to you and your guild. That'll hurt them indeed. I would say most of an guild's assets would be invested in their cities, not in their towers. So the hurtin' part I am not so sure of. If you can loose a tower in a couple of hours, chances are you can take it back just as easily. As long as your enemy is not hurt, the one with the biggest number of zergs will win. No skill nor tactics needed. The only thing that will regulate this fact is fake server rules like "you cannot attack a keep unless 2-3 hours have passed or whatever. This adds consequences to AoC's high-end PvP. Much more so then the HK grind and 'take over a few static locations every 2 minutes' of WoW. Well, that part of AoC hasn't been demostrated as far as I know outside the betas, protected by NDA. So sorry, if I don't take your word for it.
Blood Money does not equal WoW Honor points - being pointed out here several times.
Don't take anyones word for it then, but if your gonna do that don't go assuming things to the contrary until you play the game yourself. You see dev proof is more of a back up then an assumption the other direction as a Darkfall fan I would hope you would understand this and its all you have....
Guild assests in say a Battlekeep are spread out all over, there are building which directly tie into people's classes for example.
Its going to be atleast a few days before you could take a 'keep' back...
Skill and tactics are both needed more so than any other siege type game out there made or in development - thats the conclusion i've come to after reading all material so far (and thats not everything yet)
Looking forward to this even more now..! RP-PVP here I come!
Me too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athelan
Just so you know PvP and RP PvP servers would be identical as far as code, the difference would the added presence of the RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service.
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
How do you think that will work out ? :P
Nowadays its almost impossible to have a 80% working RP ruleset. Let alone a RP PvP ruleset. We all here on the forums know this will only work if there are mutliple GM's online 24/7. Huge brutal barbarians in god mode. Else the RP PvP server will mutate very fast into the worst gankfest ever. It will be the worst place you can think of. Passive and active ganking at once... the nightmare. And it wont have anything to do with Hyperborea...
I wont waste a second on one of those RP PvP shards.
Blood Money does not equal WoW Honor points - being pointed out here several times. You get blood money from killing players and you can trade it in for PvP stuff. That is different from honor points how ? Don't take anyones word for it then, but if your gonna do that don't go assuming things to the contrary until you play the game yourself. I agree, the MMO world is full of spin and half truths. And you really cannot trust devs or fanbois (including me ). A I am not in beta I cannot discuss the real thing, so I keep to what is presented to me. You see dev proof is more of a back up then an assumption the other direction as a Darkfall fan I would hope you would understand this and its all you have.... I have never presented features as facts. I support DF for being ba skillbased sandbox game. The quality of the game I will comment on when I can test it myself, not before. Guild assests in say a Battlekeep are spread out all over, there are building which directly tie into people's classes for example. I guess that up to the guild, right ? Do I invest in a safe place with a low profitreturn or a unsafe place with a greater profit return ? Its going to be atleast a few days before you could take a 'keep' back... I hear you say that but I remind you that the game is still in beta and still being tuned. It may be that the devs thinking two days are too much... Skill and tactics are both needed more so than any other siege type game out there made or in development - thats the conclusion i've come to after reading all material so far (and thats not everything yet) Sorry for not taking you word for it. Featurewise you are wrong, but lets return to that discussion when the game is out
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
No your PvE levels will matter, but not as much as in some other games. But PvP levels will be rather important in that you'll have certain abilities, feats, etc that are only available to you if your at a certain PvP level. Course.. unlike most MMOGs, player skill is very prominently important as well, do to the real time combat.
whoa whoa whoa real time combat?
what do you mean?
from what I remember, there was no auto attack, but instead you could pick what target area to attack and make combos out of it, but it's not twitch combat is it? it's still predominantly dice roll type RPG combat?
also I heard they are doing a major combat redesign due to player feedback, that the orginal "aim for certain body parts" system didn't work out too well.
Ok now you've gone from just misunderstanding the system and not really understanding how PvP works in the game to just plain trolling. Sorry but I don't respond to trolls, accept to say I'm not... er...
You may think your model of how PvP work is superior to mine, you may even be right. However unless you have actually played it, your arguments are as valid or unvalid as mine.
BTW my advice to you is to report any troll, including me.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
The user and all related content has been deleted.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Fion
Active defense has been fully implemented. You have 3 'bars' of defense and can adjust them, forward, left and right. You can go even protection, double forward, one left, or full 3 right. For example say your fighting a Barbarian and you know one of his favorite combos is mostly left hand hits, you can, in real time, adjust full right, and greatly increase your defense against those hits. Now, if you can dodge his combos that's all the better, but this is just another cool aspect to combat that will really increase it's depth. Oh and did I mention mobs do this too!?!?
Yea they are still working on the Graphics (look of the indicators) of the Shields, and just to clarify for anyone new to this info here are some dev comments on them:
3 directions are only early in the game. We still have 5.
Adding dynamic shielding which forces the player to adapt and react quickly to changing circumstances is hardly "dumber"--in fact, it's pretty much the opposite. You know XYZ combos end in ABC directions, meaning you may have to use them in a different order, probe weaknesses to get the shields to shift, or generally avoid certain combos at certain times. Blindly spamming things would be a lot "dumber" than dynamically assessing the situation and picking the best tools for the job at any given moment.
Iconography aside (which I've stated before is not my department) there is a setting in the GUI options for changing the alpha level of the shielding indicators. By default it is at 100%, but this can easily be changed as per user settings. Personally, I don't mind them at all--and when you're actually playing they really aren't very obtrusive--but for those who do find them distracting one can easily set them down to 10-20% alpha and they aren't so noticable. (I doubt someone would want to turn them off, however, as then you're attacking blind.)
In regard to PvP, I don't believe we will be showing the indicators in PvP--although the shielding system should operate the same way.
It's an important part of the combat system, and it is not "hit him there, hit him here" It's a layer of dynamically changing defense, its not all defense, its not whack a mole. You will have control over what you are doing, and will likely be wanting to perform combo's. Personally I would like to setup the shields so that my combo lands for more damage etc. This is what the shield system is tactically designed for and just because the first peek you got visually is a bit large that does not mean the system does not belong in the game, or the indicators.
__________________
Athelan-NPC/Monster Designer, Behavioral Control Center/Combat Guru, Age of Conan
I play on beta server in my off-time for fun as a gamer, not as a dev. I don't cheat, I don't use any special aids, and I'm mostly playing content I really am not familiar with as a system (rather than play content) designer.
I like the system, it makes combat more fun, and it feels dynamic while adding variety to every battle. Sorry, but viewing a video is never the same as playing and I can say as someone who has been playing quite a bit that it is a nice improvement.
The graphics are the work of the GUI team and graphics department. They are totally different people on different teams. I'm pretty confident in the GUI team's ability to tweak and polish their own side of things by launch, and it's really not my area to get involved in. If they feel things need tweaking, they will get tweaked further.
As for the mechanics (which is my job), I'm rather happy with them and both internal and external feedback has been positive. Maybe it's one of those things that come together better when you're the one reacting and triggering them, but so far it has contributed a lot to the combat system from my experience.
Who said this is 'my model'? I'm just repeating what I have learned from countless dev comments, interviews, previews, friday updates, monthly newletters, etc, etc, etc. I'm not pulling this out of my arse, this is, as far as the devs have revealed, how PvP in AoC works. You may think your ideals of how a good PvP system works better. But AFAIK we aren't debating personal ideals. Your arguments and ideals are no more or less valid then mine indeed. I'm just repeating what AoC's PvP system appears to be. That's all My point is that AoC is still in development and all features may change during a dev cycle. Unless you have actually played it, you are just stating your opinion on how you think it is going to work after collecting odds and pieces together from the forum and updates. You may be setting yourself up for a disapointment when reality hits you, but that isn't really my problem. Did a 'troll' just say 'hey man, report me.' I'm not sure if I should hammer on the 'report' button or take a cold shower and cry. Please do, then we'll get an semi imparcial judgement if I am trolling or not. It is only fair to test your accusation, right ?
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Xris375
Originally posted by Fion
Who said this is 'my model'? I'm just repeating what I have learned from countless dev comments, interviews, previews, friday updates, monthly newletters, etc, etc, etc. I'm not pulling this out of my arse, this is, as far as the devs have revealed, how PvP in AoC works. You may think your ideals of how a good PvP system works better. But AFAIK we aren't debating personal ideals. Your arguments and ideals are no more or less valid then mine indeed. I'm just repeating what AoC's PvP system appears to be. That's all My point is that AoC is still in development and all features may change during a dev cycle. Unless you have actually played it, you are just stating your opinion on how you think it is going to work after collecting odds and pieces together from the forum and updates. You may be setting yourself up for a disapointment when reality hits you, but that isn't really my problem. Did a 'troll' just say 'hey man, report me.' I'm not sure if I should hammer on the 'report' button or take a cold shower and cry. Please do, then we'll get an semi imparcial judgement if I am trolling or not. It is only fair to test your accusation, right ?
Yes Changes are inevitable just like in any game in the beta stages, so keep that in mind, with an opinion of "Unless you have actually played it". Even playing a game in beta and then again at launch can be huge and a vastly different experience. Just like it was for me with LotRO (his rez release + animations) and I played T.R. beta too and reading numerous comments from people in that forum it looks like things have changed a bit there now after release. So thats why there is an NDA because forming an opinion in beta and acting on it like its the finished product is pointless.
Anyway, I thought that was a rather 'quirky' comment your made in the same sentance as admitting things can change. Please don't take this as a 'dig' its just me looking from the outside in, and not mean't to be taken as such.
Right now with any game in Beta bound by NDA including AoC, all we have to go off are the very things that Fion mentioned. Forming discussions on released media is good for people interested, but equally saying that game A's 'model' is superior than game B's 'model' is a bit silly when one might not of been done before.
Anyway, maybe you should take a dose of your own medicine especially when talking about your favourite upcoming game in development? But I think its right for you to have your say though, and even if your post was reported the moderation on these forums can be lax at times, but I think it was alright in the jist of things.
Well, errrm - where's the blood money update Funcom?? Athelan - if you read this you should do another 'clarification' thread!
Open PvP sounds like a really nice feature, even though I've never been that addicted on it. After playing so many crippled MMORPGs AoC just looks and feels too damn good in every possible way to be true. Well, finally I have a game to wait. Right now I just gotta roll my thumbs and make up something to make the time pass.
There should be a thread how to kill time, if you'r not into any MMORPGs currently on the market.
Right now with any game in Beta bound by NDA including AoC, all we have to go off are the very things that Fion mentioned. Forming discussions on released media is good for people interested, but equally saying that game A's 'model' is superior than game B's 'model' is a bit silly when one might not of been done before. No it is not and let me try to explain my postion. This from your post above; "Blood Coins is looting. PvP levels are advancement"
Honor points is the "loot" you get from killing other players. You don't actually need to pick it up but you still have to kill an advesary to get it. You cannot trade it to others ( I am assuming) and it can only be exhanged to skills or goods by certain vendors.
"Blood Money is looting for PvP in a controllable method to prevent issues of muling etc because it can be restricted in ways normal money cannot.
Exactly what honor points are.
You do not buy armor/weapons with blood money. I believe I said this in the very first thread about it after the announcement. Just because we said you could get items, does not mean it is the same as WoW."
That is a tecnicality, you get bloodmoney so you can buy something you would otherwise not be able to. If its armor, skill or potions doesn't matter.
"Blood Money will be required by the trainers who will train you in your PvP related feats, and there will be merchants that will sell things for Blood Money as Blood Money needs to be useful, and these things sold will be pvp related, but its not a magic vendor with some faction requirements and just save up X amount of Blood Money to buy an omg leet sword of uber pk.
Walking a very thin line here. It's it not the way the items are distibuted that counts. It's the priniple you kill advesaries, gets some kind of personal valuta, that you only can use for certain restricted items by a restricted vendor.
Your advancement is in your Pvp Levels and choice of feats, Blood Money is again, looting, it is money from the fallen foes hewn before your blade."
You get honor points from killing advesaries, that you actually have to pick it up is a very small detail. In fact it is an excuse because Funcom don't have vision to implement full loot, but the players should get some fake check collecable only at certain stores instead, right ?. BTW, honorpoints are not advancement, it's an rankingsystem that gives you access to certain limited stuff. A naked rank 14 warrior is just as good or bad as an rank 1 warrior.
Anyway, maybe you should take a dose of your own medicine especially when talking about your favourite upcoming game in development?
I am kinda waiting for my medisine here now. What is it ? And please I am open for an discussion about my "favourite upcoming game in development" in that forum
But I think its right for you to have your say though, and even if your post was reported the moderation on these forums can be lax at times, but I think it was alright in the jist of things.
LOL- the moderation in here is just fine. the "problem" is that I am discussing case and not person. Something you guys seems to have no problem with doing...
Well, errrm - where's the blood money update Funcom?? Athelan - if you read this you should do another 'clarification' thread!
I'm waiting as well...
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
I only read the first post so forgive me if someone came up with strong evidence to counter the OP's claim. Of course I realize he did already provide the evidence to refute the subject since the devs clearly said regular Servers with only have open-pvp in the seige areas.
I am very very happy to see confirmation that AOC will include servers where open-pvp takes place almost everywhere but main cities. I have come to recently realize that Open-PVP is not just another MMORPG game mechanic that can be used by the devs or ignored, it makes for an entirely different type of game.
Oh, and personally I'd like to see unrestricted looting. Not because it would benefit those doing the killing, but because of the amazing benefits to those doing the crafting.
Lastly, I would also like to see much of the resource gathering being done in open-pvp areas(outside cities). Again because of the benefits to crafting.
When Trammel launched in UO it killed crafting. Resources were way too easy to come by and people started macroing 24/7 while away from the cpus or at work/school because they knew no one could harm them. Players started keeping their weapons and armor 90% of the time while on dungeon crawls and such. This meant that not only were crafters less in demand, but their items started selling for much much less.
My point is that without more open killing and looting the crafting class suffers. If the crafting class suffers your game becomes less interesting. If your game becomes less interesting you lose the population. If you lose the population your game becomes even less interesting and you lose more people. Then your game wilts and dies.
Also, a difficult and challenging crafting mechanic that can be profitable enough to completely support a character without any need for fighting(or less need) leads to more females playing for one, and it also leads to more players being completely defenseless against player killing. This means saving these defenseless players from PKs makes you truely feel like a hero, which is the absolute hardest thing for any game to pull off, but also the most satisfying gaming experience. On the other side of the coin it allows for true villainy, which appeals to a lot of other gamers. Killing a warrior or mage 10 levels below you makes you an asshole or at least a bit of a cheat. Killing a defenseless miner who can lose 10 minutes worth of ore makes you a villain....and an asshole.
I know that AOC, with its levels and lack of a skill or experience based crafting system won't really work like this, but they could sure get a hell of a lot closer to this hero/villain game mechanic if they included open looting and open pvp. Again, it is not to the benefit of the Player Killer, but to the benefit of the Non-PvPer or the Crafter, and to the benefit of the entire game population.
-for now, argument saying that blood money is like honor is far more convincing than blood money is nothing like honor
-AoC like WAR seems like it's heart is in the right place, but things just seem somewhat halfassed, it has PVP (AoC even more than WAR-which I like) but all the litle artificial limitations I'm finding out about as times goes by are just incriesing in numbers and slowly killing the hype for me
-nothing else to do but wait and see, but for now I don't see a real reason to quit WoW for a game that is like WoW but nothing like, but actualy is the same like WoW, but with a twist.... anyways, I refuse to grind levels again, in other game when I barely managed to get to max lvl in WoW
-I'm confident that AoC will do just fine and breath some not so stale air into the industry, who knows, maybe AoC and WAR both will show that interest in PVP is here and that thinking about PVP is actualy a welcome change and not a sin
I'm not saying blood money=wow honor, the oher guy does, I'm just saying he makes a much more compelling argument, I'm saying blood money is like honor by it's funcionality, not by it's design
Limitations I'm talking about are diferences between player citys and keeps, having to set a date to fight, even the whole blood money thing, not beeing able to actualy loot the other player, but taking some of his blood money to compensate.
Those are also the reasons why I use the term halfassed, not in a sense of a halfassed MMORPG (regarding that I think AoC will be an MMORPG 10x > WAR, it's just that WAR will be more fun for short bursts of time, something like TeamFortress 2 is to Battlefield games), so I'm sorry if I worded that wong, what I should have wrote is, it seems like a halfassed FFA PVP game. It's more of bashing the concept on my side and not much bashing of the final product in quality of which I have litle doubt.
I have the same issue with WAR too, with all the instancing and auto reset functions, the divide between PVP and PVE zones. If you skew the truth just enough, you could even say that WoW has more freedom than theese 2 games, my UD rogue can wouch for that from his hideout in Ironforge.
I am aware that all those limitations are a way of evening out the playing field and means to bring some sense into the possible chaos that PVP servers could turn into. I just guess I'm not happy with the way they are resolving the issue.
Too bad I'm not a game developer so I could have ideas of my own....
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by SonofSeth
I'm not saying blood money=wow honor, the oher guy does, I'm just saying he makes a much more compelling argument, I'm saying blood money is like honor by it's funcionality, not by it's design Limitations I'm talking about are diferences between player citys and keeps, having to set a date to fight, even the whole blood money thing, not beeing able to actualy loot the other player, but taking some of his blood money to compensate. Those are also the reasons why I use the term halfassed, not in a sense of a halfassed MMORPG (regarding that I think AoC will be an MMORPG 10x > WAR, it's just that WAR will be more fun for short bursts of time, something like TeamFortress 2 is to Battlefield games), so I'm sorry if I worded that wong, what I should have wrote is, it seems like a halfassed FFA PVP game. It's more of bashing the concept on my side and not much bashing of the final product in quality of which I have litle doubt. I have the same issue with WAR too, with all the instancing and auto reset functions, the divide between PVP and PVE zones. If you skew the truth just enough, you could even say that WoW has more freedom than theese 2 games, my UD rogue can wouch for that from his hideout in Ironforge. I am aware that all those limitations are a way of evening out the playing field and means to bring some sense into the possible chaos that PVP servers could turn into. I just guess I'm not happy with the way they are resolving the issue. Too bad I'm not a game developer so I could have ideas of my own....
"If you ever find yourself in the possession of a battlekeep you will sooner or later have to face the fact that someone will try and take it from you. The good thing is that you, as a defender, will be able to more or less determine when your battlekeep will be vulnerable for attack, something that ensures that you will always have the upper hand and that there will be no nasty surprises.
«If your battlekeep were vulnerable for attack all the time, that would soon prove to be very frustrating to players,» says Stone. «Instead the guild determines when it's attackable. You choose your own vulnerability window, and the bigger it is, the more benefits your guild receives from owning the battlekeep. Still, no one is safe: Everyone needs to be vulnerable at some point.»
The actual siege is initiated when a guild set up a war tent outside the other guild's battlekeep within its vulnerability window, effectively declaring war on it. The defenders will need to muster their forces just as much as the attackers will have to, and from there it's surely survival of the fittest!"
Sieges are public affairs, no limit on siege participation either, so a rival guild could interrupt your siege by flanking you, no cap on amount of people in the Border Kingdoms, BK is not instanced. Conclusions I came to after hearing this: 90 minute Interview with Grenade Radio : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/153332 as well as others on the official forum.
So when you think about it instancing will only be used as where its needed on an Open ffa PvP server in AoC.
With the defending guild setting window of opportunity, just means you don't get attacked at 4 am in the morning. The enemy can still send scouts out as the area is open, there will be fighting all the time. Its not like you have to wait for a siege to start:
It is my personal opinion that your castle walls and such should not be invulnerable when not in a vulnerability window because this adds game-play and tactics. No they should not be able to burn all your buildings to the ground without it being during a siege, but a siege itself is more about capturing the whole shebang than just causing damage, however maybe some people would just cause damage, but if you lose the keep you would be losing those assets anyway.
If everything was invulnerable during non window times then there would be no point for anyone going near any Battlekeep unless it was during that time period which is also something I don't want to see. A couple guys are not likely to roll up shoot a couple fire arrows and leave your Battlekeep in flames or knock down a wall but people knowing they could do something to you is a good thing. It's still a fortress and its not made of paper mache, the vulnerability window is there so you don't have to worry about it being completely taken from you all the time, it does not mean you should be able to ignore it completely when its not under contention. ~ Athelan, AoC Developer.
Rogues cannot climb walls because climbing requires static points on the server and the walls are dynamic objects.
What you fear about 4am razings is really just a matter of balance. I "threw" a couple "block parties" in Shadowbane where we were not engaging the target with a capture bane we were just there to hurt them financially and damage buildings. But we would seriously spend many hours doing this like 6-8 each wall section took a considerable time to knockdown even if I recall it was like between 30-and an hour of shooting at it with siege equipment. Hand siege weapons do almost no damage and would take a 10 minutes to destroy even the smallest hut.
Which means yes someone could "hurt you" but you would like be able to repair your stuff they cant destroy it completely.
In addition this I think plays better for the actual sieges because then you have pre siege skirmishes as potential attackers don't want to spend the 30 minutes DURING the siege to knock a hole in the wall as the defenders are gaining tickets towards winning that entire time.
If the time thing became a huge issue it could potentially be possible to use the "server lockout" time schedule to make it so you cant do damage during that time, but I see this more as a great way to use the merc system also to hire people to babysit while your guilds main force might not be around ~ Athelan, AoC Developer
Just thought I'd thow that out there. Looting is still under wraps. I think the thought gone into it is anything but halfassed.
Thanks for all the aditional info, as I said, I'll try the game, I sure wouldn't wanna be cought without an opinion when it hits the boards. Maybe the positives do outweigh the negatives and we can start the second FFA PVP war...
I can tell you one thing though, anyone saying that the game doesen't look realy good can have words with me
See how quick that Avery is. I ask for him to dig up posts about how Keeps are vulnerable in ways even when the 'attack window' isn't open.. and he does so before I even finish posting!
Yea I was referring to that other guy. I'm not sure how much more compelling his argument is when it boils down to 'I don't really know much about the game, you guys are feeding me stuff strait from the devs but I still say it's just like honor, even if I have nothing to back that up' but that's besides the point.
Are you joking? Are you just saying that because you are a fan of the game? He is the only one in this thread that has bothered to cite any actual substance to back up their argument. Well, other than me earlier in the thread, heh.
The case made so far that it isn't like honor has been very very weak... in fact I don't even know if it qualifies for an argument, since it doesn't appear to be based on any specific reasons why its different, only that someone at funcom says so.
So far I've seen 'the devs say its not like honor' mentioned about 5 different ways, without citing reasons of why its different. And then a bunch of sentences describing blood money that also perfectly applies to honor points as well (like how its obtained, how its spent, what its used for, which all come together to describe in total how it functions in the world...).
I'm not in the business of blind faith. And I certainly don't encourage it in others. So in all honesty, the devs really should start giving some concrete reasons of why the systems are different in function, and not just fall back on the 'your just going to have to trust us' card. And if your a so-called fan... you shouldn't make unsubstantiated claims that the argument isn't valid when a great deal of evidence shows there to be a strong case. Have a little integrity for crying out loud.
My opinion.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Comments
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Blood Money does not equal WoW Honor points - being pointed out here several times.
Don't take anyones word for it then, but if your gonna do that don't go assuming things to the contrary until you play the game yourself. You see dev proof is more of a back up then an assumption the other direction as a Darkfall fan I would hope you would understand this and its all you have....
Guild assests in say a Battlekeep are spread out all over, there are building which directly tie into people's classes for example.
Its going to be atleast a few days before you could take a 'keep' back...
Skill and tactics are both needed more so than any other siege type game out there made or in development - thats the conclusion i've come to after reading all material so far (and thats not everything yet)
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
How do you think that will work out ? :PNowadays its almost impossible to have a 80% working RP ruleset. Let alone a RP PvP ruleset. We all here on the forums know this will only work if there are mutliple GM's online 24/7. Huge brutal barbarians in god mode. Else the RP PvP server will mutate very fast into the worst gankfest ever. It will be the worst place you can think of. Passive and active ganking at once... the nightmare. And it wont have anything to do with Hyperborea...
I wont waste a second on one of those RP PvP shards.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
whoa whoa whoa real time combat?
what do you mean?
from what I remember, there was no auto attack, but instead you could pick what target area to attack and make combos out of it, but it's not twitch combat is it? it's still predominantly dice roll type RPG combat?
also I heard they are doing a major combat redesign due to player feedback, that the orginal "aim for certain body parts" system didn't work out too well.
Any insight?
Ok now you've gone from just misunderstanding the system and not really understanding how PvP works in the game to just plain trolling. Sorry but I don't respond to trolls, accept to say I'm not... er...
You may think your model of how PvP work is superior to mine, you may even be right. However unless you have actually played it, your arguments are as valid or unvalid as mine.
BTW my advice to you is to report any troll, including me.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1116291", true);
Adding dynamic shielding which forces the player to adapt and react quickly to changing circumstances is hardly "dumber"--in fact, it's pretty much the opposite. You know XYZ combos end in ABC directions, meaning you may have to use them in a different order, probe weaknesses to get the shields to shift, or generally avoid certain combos at certain times. Blindly spamming things would be a lot "dumber" than dynamically assessing the situation and picking the best tools for the job at any given moment.
Iconography aside (which I've stated before is not my department) there is a setting in the GUI options for changing the alpha level of the shielding indicators. By default it is at 100%, but this can easily be changed as per user settings. Personally, I don't mind them at all--and when you're actually playing they really aren't very obtrusive--but for those who do find them distracting one can easily set them down to 10-20% alpha and they aren't so noticable. (I doubt someone would want to turn them off, however, as then you're attacking blind.)
In regard to PvP, I don't believe we will be showing the indicators in PvP--although the shielding system should operate the same way.
Balance Team Lead
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1116895", true);
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1117098", true);
I like the system, it makes combat more fun, and it feels dynamic while adding variety to every battle. Sorry, but viewing a video is never the same as playing and I can say as someone who has been playing quite a bit that it is a nice improvement.
The graphics are the work of the GUI team and graphics department. They are totally different people on different teams. I'm pretty confident in the GUI team's ability to tweak and polish their own side of things by launch, and it's really not my area to get involved in. If they feel things need tweaking, they will get tweaked further.
As for the mechanics (which is my job), I'm rather happy with them and both internal and external feedback has been positive. Maybe it's one of those things that come together better when you're the one reacting and triggering them, but so far it has contributed a lot to the combat system from my experience.
Balance Team Lead
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1118499", true);
So I pop them up when I need to check them.
I like being able to control their visibility, I find it very easy to do in combat and they add a lot to my playing experience.
My 2 coppers worth.
Just to add to what Fion mentioned
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Yes Changes are inevitable just like in any game in the beta stages, so keep that in mind, with an opinion of "Unless you have actually played it". Even playing a game in beta and then again at launch can be huge and a vastly different experience. Just like it was for me with LotRO (his rez release + animations) and I played T.R. beta too and reading numerous comments from people in that forum it looks like things have changed a bit there now after release. So thats why there is an NDA because forming an opinion in beta and acting on it like its the finished product is pointless.
Anyway, I thought that was a rather 'quirky' comment your made in the same sentance as admitting things can change. Please don't take this as a 'dig' its just me looking from the outside in, and not mean't to be taken as such.
Right now with any game in Beta bound by NDA including AoC, all we have to go off are the very things that Fion mentioned. Forming discussions on released media is good for people interested, but equally saying that game A's 'model' is superior than game B's 'model' is a bit silly when one might not of been done before.
Anyway, maybe you should take a dose of your own medicine especially when talking about your favourite upcoming game in development? But I think its right for you to have your say though, and even if your post was reported the moderation on these forums can be lax at times, but I think it was alright in the jist of things.
Well, errrm - where's the blood money update Funcom?? Athelan - if you read this you should do another 'clarification' thread!
Open PvP sounds like a really nice feature, even though I've never been that addicted on it. After playing so many crippled MMORPGs AoC just looks and feels too damn good in every possible way to be true. Well, finally I have a game to wait. Right now I just gotta roll my thumbs and make up something to make the time pass.
There should be a thread how to kill time, if you'r not into any MMORPGs currently on the market.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
I only read the first post so forgive me if someone came up with strong evidence to counter the OP's claim. Of course I realize he did already provide the evidence to refute the subject since the devs clearly said regular Servers with only have open-pvp in the seige areas.
I am very very happy to see confirmation that AOC will include servers where open-pvp takes place almost everywhere but main cities. I have come to recently realize that Open-PVP is not just another MMORPG game mechanic that can be used by the devs or ignored, it makes for an entirely different type of game.
Oh, and personally I'd like to see unrestricted looting. Not because it would benefit those doing the killing, but because of the amazing benefits to those doing the crafting.
Lastly, I would also like to see much of the resource gathering being done in open-pvp areas(outside cities). Again because of the benefits to crafting.
When Trammel launched in UO it killed crafting. Resources were way too easy to come by and people started macroing 24/7 while away from the cpus or at work/school because they knew no one could harm them. Players started keeping their weapons and armor 90% of the time while on dungeon crawls and such. This meant that not only were crafters less in demand, but their items started selling for much much less.
My point is that without more open killing and looting the crafting class suffers. If the crafting class suffers your game becomes less interesting. If your game becomes less interesting you lose the population. If you lose the population your game becomes even less interesting and you lose more people. Then your game wilts and dies.
Also, a difficult and challenging crafting mechanic that can be profitable enough to completely support a character without any need for fighting(or less need) leads to more females playing for one, and it also leads to more players being completely defenseless against player killing. This means saving these defenseless players from PKs makes you truely feel like a hero, which is the absolute hardest thing for any game to pull off, but also the most satisfying gaming experience. On the other side of the coin it allows for true villainy, which appeals to a lot of other gamers. Killing a warrior or mage 10 levels below you makes you an asshole or at least a bit of a cheat. Killing a defenseless miner who can lose 10 minutes worth of ore makes you a villain....and an asshole.
I know that AOC, with its levels and lack of a skill or experience based crafting system won't really work like this, but they could sure get a hell of a lot closer to this hero/villain game mechanic if they included open looting and open pvp. Again, it is not to the benefit of the Player Killer, but to the benefit of the Non-PvPer or the Crafter, and to the benefit of the entire game population.
-I'll try it
-for now, argument saying that blood money is like honor is far more convincing than blood money is nothing like honor
-AoC like WAR seems like it's heart is in the right place, but things just seem somewhat halfassed, it has PVP (AoC even more than WAR-which I like) but all the litle artificial limitations I'm finding out about as times goes by are just incriesing in numbers and slowly killing the hype for me
-nothing else to do but wait and see, but for now I don't see a real reason to quit WoW for a game that is like WoW but nothing like, but actualy is the same like WoW, but with a twist.... anyways, I refuse to grind levels again, in other game when I barely managed to get to max lvl in WoW
-I'm confident that AoC will do just fine and breath some not so stale air into the industry, who knows, maybe AoC and WAR both will show that interest in PVP is here and that thinking about PVP is actualy a welcome change and not a sin
I'm not saying blood money=wow honor, the oher guy does, I'm just saying he makes a much more compelling argument, I'm saying blood money is like honor by it's funcionality, not by it's design
Limitations I'm talking about are diferences between player citys and keeps, having to set a date to fight, even the whole blood money thing, not beeing able to actualy loot the other player, but taking some of his blood money to compensate.
Those are also the reasons why I use the term halfassed, not in a sense of a halfassed MMORPG (regarding that I think AoC will be an MMORPG 10x > WAR, it's just that WAR will be more fun for short bursts of time, something like TeamFortress 2 is to Battlefield games), so I'm sorry if I worded that wong, what I should have wrote is, it seems like a halfassed FFA PVP game. It's more of bashing the concept on my side and not much bashing of the final product in quality of which I have litle doubt.
I have the same issue with WAR too, with all the instancing and auto reset functions, the divide between PVP and PVE zones. If you skew the truth just enough, you could even say that WoW has more freedom than theese 2 games, my UD rogue can wouch for that from his hideout in Ironforge.
I am aware that all those limitations are a way of evening out the playing field and means to bring some sense into the possible chaos that PVP servers could turn into. I just guess I'm not happy with the way they are resolving the issue.
Too bad I'm not a game developer so I could have ideas of my own....
Actually the information that came out, (clarification on sieging) says its a window of opportunity, from which anyone can attack your keep then: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/149797
The actual siege is initiated when a guild set up a war tent outside the other guild's battlekeep within its vulnerability window, effectively declaring war on it. The defenders will need to muster their forces just as much as the attackers will have to, and from there it's surely survival of the fittest!"
Sieges are public affairs, no limit on siege participation either, so a rival guild could interrupt your siege by flanking you, no cap on amount of people in the Border Kingdoms, BK is not instanced. Conclusions I came to after hearing this: 90 minute Interview with Grenade Radio : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/153332 as well as others on the official forum.
So when you think about it instancing will only be used as where its needed on an Open ffa PvP server in AoC.
With the defending guild setting window of opportunity, just means you don't get attacked at 4 am in the morning. The enemy can still send scouts out as the area is open, there will be fighting all the time. Its not like you have to wait for a siege to start:
If everything was invulnerable during non window times then there would be no point for anyone going near any Battlekeep unless it was during that time period which is also something I don't want to see. A couple guys are not likely to roll up shoot a couple fire arrows and leave your Battlekeep in flames or knock down a wall but people knowing they could do something to you is a good thing. It's still a fortress and its not made of paper mache, the vulnerability window is there so you don't have to worry about it being completely taken from you all the time, it does not mean you should be able to ignore it completely when its not under contention. ~ Athelan, AoC Developer.
What you fear about 4am razings is really just a matter of balance. I "threw" a couple "block parties" in Shadowbane where we were not engaging the target with a capture bane we were just there to hurt them financially and damage buildings. But we would seriously spend many hours doing this like 6-8 each wall section took a considerable time to knockdown even if I recall it was like between 30-and an hour of shooting at it with siege equipment. Hand siege weapons do almost no damage and would take a 10 minutes to destroy even the smallest hut.
Which means yes someone could "hurt you" but you would like be able to repair your stuff they cant destroy it completely.
In addition this I think plays better for the actual sieges because then you have pre siege skirmishes as potential attackers don't want to spend the 30 minutes DURING the siege to knock a hole in the wall as the defenders are gaining tickets towards winning that entire time.
If the time thing became a huge issue it could potentially be possible to use the "server lockout" time schedule to make it so you cant do damage during that time, but I see this more as a great way to use the merc system also to hire people to babysit while your guilds main force might not be around ~ Athelan, AoC Developer
Just thought I'd thow that out there. Looting is still under wraps. I think the thought gone into it is anything but halfassed.
True, halfassed is far too derogatory.
Thanks for all the aditional info, as I said, I'll try the game, I sure wouldn't wanna be cought without an opinion when it hits the boards. Maybe the positives do outweigh the negatives and we can start the second FFA PVP war...
I can tell you one thing though, anyone saying that the game doesen't look realy good can have words with me
PVP forever!
He's just amazing, isn't he?
The case made so far that it isn't like honor has been very very weak... in fact I don't even know if it qualifies for an argument, since it doesn't appear to be based on any specific reasons why its different, only that someone at funcom says so.
So far I've seen 'the devs say its not like honor' mentioned about 5 different ways, without citing reasons of why its different. And then a bunch of sentences describing blood money that also perfectly applies to honor points as well (like how its obtained, how its spent, what its used for, which all come together to describe in total how it functions in the world...).
I'm not in the business of blind faith. And I certainly don't encourage it in others. So in all honesty, the devs really should start giving some concrete reasons of why the systems are different in function, and not just fall back on the 'your just going to have to trust us' card. And if your a so-called fan... you shouldn't make unsubstantiated claims that the argument isn't valid when a great deal of evidence shows there to be a strong case. Have a little integrity for crying out loud.
My opinion.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.