true, true objectives also enrich PVP. But Lore does not give me a reason to kill an innocent dark elf all because he choose the 'other' faction risk vs reward is what give us objectives all over the world. However, fighting over a resource node is also fine
gankfests are fine really. This leads to anti-PKs popping up and true heroism. Players will simply zerg an objective if they can. But defending a lowbie lends to geniuine gratitude and kinship. In WoW I cant be a hero- the griefer can just respawn and come back but in presence of consequences, I can be a real hero......
I have no interest in being a hero in a MMORPG. It is not why I play the game.
All my posts are in direct response to your statement that "Quests have very little place in MMORPGs." It is the quests and objectives that give enjoyment to alot of the people that PVP (myself included). Being caught on the hamster wheel of defending a town or territory over and over again every single day does not sound enjoyable (which is probably why I did not enjoy playing EVE all that much). This type of play also promotes too much drama.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
to Lizard_SF: You rock! you just pwnd the op lol! I agree 100% with you. It's hillarious how he tries to make it sound like FFA PvP was somehow glorious back in the day when I myself remember experiencing how retarded and un-fun it was when I played EQ and UO on PvP servers. It was BECAUSE of FFA PvP that I stopped playing PvP altogether, it wasn't until I tried it in WoW that I ended up having fun. Why? because everyone is pretty much close to your level, so no more level 70's beating up level 1's that's just moronic. The second reason as I mentioned before, everyone that joins the PvP battlegrounds WANT to fight so they'll end up being more of a challenge than a player that only wants to do quests.
As usual Vajuras you speak well and offer me challenge....
I think that FFA PvP has it's place but only if the players assign meaning to it. The solo PK ganker or PK gank squads really are, what someone else said, just socially unadjusted losers. Taking pleasure in killing others simply because you can? Pretty psychopathic. What's the point? Even worse then gankers are the griefers, killing someone who doesn't have a chance is just pathetic. They are merely bandits like we see in real life. they've reduced their risks and prey on the weak. That is a good, freeform dynamic that creates many, many professions: bounty hunter, thief, pirate, anti-PK, etc. For a virtual world we want this. Now for a 'game' like WAR we dont need it. I dont want to play a 'game' I want a real, living virtual sandbox personally. But I find no fault in others for wanting a 'casual game'. Everything WAR offers too me I think Team Fortress 2 will do better. There are many 'games' out there but few, living virtual worlds You can try to say "survival of the fittest" or whatever, but humanity got where it is today through logic and restraint, not just competition. I see no point to ganking / griefing and applaud any game that tries to remove it completely. The only "control over the world" it gives is the ability to be an asshat. Sorry bud, just my opinion. yep well said. But the bandits give rise to 'heroes'. Without the bandits / villains, there are no heroes in PVP. In PVE, only way u can really be a hero is by saving someone from a death penalty. In EQ- we had Heroes. In FFA games, we have 'heroes'. Especvially if there is consequence for wrong doing. Recall, objectives are static. We zerg'em and rush'em. That's routine. But griefers- that's dynamic. I can be a real hero the more depraved griefers are allowed to be. What I think people really want is to be able to create their own factions, their own alliances, their own enemies and rivalries... EVE does do this well, but unfortunately all it takes is a single asshat to completely ruin it for someone else. Also in EVE I hate the skill over time system. In a traditional skill advancement system, a new player could work their @$$ off to catch up quickly, but in EVE it's only a matter of surviving the waiting process... pretty lame in my opinion. you could have not played EVE Online long that is not true at all. No one man is worth salt. It's about Fleets and Alliances. I've seen gankers try to come to our gates and they get 'ganked' at our gates unless they somehow beat our gate camps. Even then, I tend to not see them in our PVE areas (asteroid fields) There must be consequence to all actions. The single PK or PK gank squads should be outcasts of traditional society, as they were in UO. Players should fear helping or aligning with them because it will bring their own reputation dragging through the gutter. Players who choose to be asshats and spend their time trying to ruin the game for others should be treated like animals, vermin, not worthy of reprisal nor redemption... Only if they are caught should they be punished and put in Jail and have to pay bounties off (pay fines). If they escape, then they escape (like real life). Checkout W.E.L.L. Online's FAQ they got the right idea. There is nothing wrong with ganksquads. They are villains and we need heroes to stop them. Without griefers, I cannot be a hero (unless PVE is tweaked to be HARD and death penalty is present). In PVE though- you can be a hero and really save a friend. Heck, even in WoW. But in PVP- I cannot save my friend because his attacker respawns. And some people will still love to play that role. We saw this in UO. The valiant anti-PKs should be rewarded and celebrated. Thrust upon a throne of honor as heroes. There is no good, no evil. Only grey. A Hero in one town is a Villain in another. Anti-Pker might be a hero in his town- but a villain to another town. in real life mankind is split off into communities alignment is something known to 'you' and there is reputation amongst communities. However, I care bout my neighbor more then about someone in nother country. In UO, we could not protect our friends when we went offline. There was no bottlenecks or soverignty. EVE Online has Bottlenecks. I can protect my fellow man there and fights between PKers will rage to epic proportions. I argue EVE Online is not akin to FFA PVP but something more advanced, evolved. I think the big problem with faction based PVP like in WAR and WoW is that there are only two factions, and they are assigned by race. In UO I think there were 5 different factions fighting for power, as well as Order vs. Chaos. If you must have faction based PVP, gives players many more options on which faction to join, but don't base it off of something as obviously problematic as Race. True, I agree here. World Of Warcraft got it so wrong though. In the real warcraft lore orcs and mankind work together against the Legion. They are comrades. WoW perverted the lore and tossed away the hardwork and years of lore and pissed it into the wind. Alliance and Horde are not at war in the lore nor Warcraft 3 RTS All signs point to Mythic adding much more importance and focus on open world PVP (ala DaoC) then the instanced, WoW type battlegrounds. If they don't, if they make it WoW battlegrounds PVP but with 30 bg's instead of 4, it'll still be horrible. It wont be open PVP but rather I suspect its limited to instances and capped around 100. All of your accomplishments will merely be an illusion- it will be wiped sooner or later. But I commend them for trying I will check it out when it comes out if Time favors me PVP should always be a choice. I still say to this date that the Trammel / Felucca split was the best thing UO ever did. The factions PVP was #2. The only people who hated the Trammel/Felucca split were the PK Ganker Asshats who lost 99% of their fresh meat and were forced to fight fairly. Many of them found fun and worthy PVP again with the Factions system. But all of this only worked because gear meant nothing, there were no levels or classes, and you could grind up your skills to near max in a day (they allowed / didn't stop macroing for the Love of Pete) I'd be much more excited and pumped for Darkfall if it didn't make the TRAGIC mistake of trying to cross genre boundries and add the absolutely horrible idea of real time FPS combat. "But it worked in Oblivion!" Yes, because it's not online. I think this alone will keep Darkfall at a MORPG rather then a MMORPG... if it isn't Vaporware So you are okay with Meleers getting pwned by Mages? You realize us Warriors cannot touch a Mage in PVP do you? In almost every MMO you do realize us Warriors cant get within ten feet without some sort of 'Dash' ability and Stuns and Stealth. Realtime Dodging gives us Use of Terrain, it alleviates zerging, gives us Bottlenecks, allows meleers to close range on Mages, allows for more player skill, allows for more player styles to blend through. It would be Insane not to integrate realtime dodging and try to call yourself a PVP based MMO. This is why I say is not a PVP focused MMO but rather an MMORPG with PVE/PVP. You must have player skill properly accounted for. At least UO was freeform thus allowing my player skill to blend through better. Was not bound by a heavily restricted, cookie cutter Class
Originally posted by vajuras Originally posted by Bane82
Originally posted by Orthedos To OP: That is just a difference in play style, carebear? is that an attempt to belittle the other side trying to selling your story of a hero. That is a cheap salesman technique. Are you a griefer? Ok less of a flaming tone, and trying to address your ideas: 1. PVP without rules is near chaos, and yes someone likes total chaos, someone likes regulated chaos. Another portion of the player base wants no chaos. To each his own. There are games with open pvp servers, RVR servers and total co-op servers. To each his own. 2. You pretend to paint a glossy picture of free PVP being a solution to game boredom. I doubt that. There are many games, including free games that are totally pvp free. Not all of them successful. Endless ganking and griefing and farming newbies at popular spots like zone ins actually makes a game very boring fast. Stop try to flame me. I know many ppl leaving a game just b/c of that. Call them carebear? No problem, they don't care, they have left you alone in that game, if you are still there. 3. If you look at games with various types of pvp and pvp servers, the least populated is usually the pvp server. It seems to suggest that more people prefer to play with limited pvp or consensual pvp. Carebear? Well its just a distribution of preference over the gamer population. Whatever label you stick onto them makes no difference. 4. You like to kill and loot off dead players, you like the ability to steal, good for you. Someone else may not like it. Fact is, endless ganging of new players, insulting gestures and outright slandering of the unwary defeated is the best way to kill off the interest of most newcoming starters. You can paint a glorious side of a pvp server. Others can paint an appaling aspect of pvp gameplay. Once again to each his own. 5. You seems to suggest that most of the pve server players have no idea what free pvp is. Well, I beg to differ. Many players bailed the pvp servers and join the pve servers and settle down. I know of no friend or guildies going the other way. All those I know that tried the pvp servers comes back with a curse. Well your mileage may differ. 6. Quoting Eve, well that is about the only open pvp game that is out there in the market and its not gaining a huge fanbase. Its a great game indeed for Eve goers but there are just not too many Eve goers. The rest of the games are a mixed bag of pvp/pve versions. That has to tell a bit about the general preference out there in the market. Once again, no carebear, non-care bear thing. Just preference among those ready to waste some hours online for fun or whatever. Is FFA PVP a dying breed? Not really, is rock or classical music a dying breed? Not really, its a minor population in terms of numbers. So what? If you enjoy it, that is all that matters.
Well said and well argued. I don't see how anybody can disagree with this statement since it shows what PvP is all about. Sorry but a lot more people go to PvE because of the way PvP is and player looting? Do they seriously think we're stupid? So let me understand this... the PvPer's idea of fun is to kill a player to steal a piece of equipment that they had to work hard for? I'm sorry, but to me it seems like the PvPers in this case are the carebears because they'd rather go the easy route (gank innocent unassuming players) rather than put the effor that player did to get his piece of equipment. By the way, calling us carebears and telling us to "accept it" doesn't get your post much credibility either. I'd rather have controlled and consensual PvP the way WoW has it because you know that when you go in, you're going to be fighting against people who REALLY want to PvP, not innocent level 1 players that just want to quest. This was a genius way of implementing PvP because it will separate the true PvPers (the ones that want to win at all cost and have the skill/equipment to back it up) from the stupid griefers (killing players 50 levels lower than you is FUN!) Sorry but not dice, FFA PvP is retarded and has no place in today's MMO market. If you want to show off how big your e-peen show it by going up against people who want to kill you no matter what, instead of ganking on lowbies. Ganking on lowbies just shows what a tard you are. I wonder why killing a lowbie is such a crime. MMORPGs are about progression whether its gear, equipment, skills, etc. You're never on a balanced playing field with others. There is always a new uber item to attain or new build. Quests- they really have little place in MMORPGs in the 1st place. That's the problem. They're fake- no impact. They belong in single player RPGs. most any PVE veteran will agree there teaming becomes a lot more liberal in the absence of Quests. you should try playing it before making an assumption. At least then you could make a good post against it. Like perhaps you could argue you like being put on a team with others in RvR. Killing lowbies is fine. That's why you have higher levels who will come to your aid. If there are no victims, then there are no heroes.
Killing lowbies just shows how much of a coward you are, you're not willing to play on an even field and you'd rather prey on the weak so you can get loot and sell it. It's pathetic and distasteful. If you want to PvP, play with someone on the same level, prove how much you love PvP by fighting against someone who wants to kill you just as badly as you want to kill them... oh, and better yet, to prove if you really want to PvP, let there be NO gain from it. Yep you heard me, NO gain. In other words, if you REALLY want to PvP, then lete there be no player loot, no exp, no nothing, you're killing just because you want to PvP... Bet you don't want to fly that flag up anymore do you?
Quests not being a part of an MMORPG? ROFL!!!!!! What have you been smoking noob? What part of RPG of MMORPG don't you get? Quests are ESSENTIAL to an RPG experience as they give you a venue to get involved in the story line of the world. Without quests an MMORPG is ONLY a shooter game only with swords and sorcery. My god I can't believe you can be this ignorant.
I'm sorry but your arguments are moot. I have played PvP so I know I'm not making assumptions, and its because of PvP that most people change to PvE.
That is just a difference in play style, carebear? is that an attempt to belittle the other side trying to selling your story of a hero. That is a cheap salesman technique.
Are you a griefer?
Ok less of a flaming tone, and trying to address your ideas:
1. PVP without rules is near chaos, and yes someone likes total chaos, someone likes regulated chaos. Another portion of the player base wants no chaos. To each his own. There are games with open pvp servers, RVR servers and total co-op servers. To each his own.
2. You pretend to paint a glossy picture of free PVP being a solution to game boredom. I doubt that. There are many games, including free games that are totally pvp free. Not all of them successful. Endless ganking and griefing and farming newbies at popular spots like zone ins actually makes a game very boring fast. Stop try to flame me. I know many ppl leaving a game just b/c of that. Call them carebear? No problem, they don't care, they have left you alone in that game, if you are still there.
3. If you look at games with various types of pvp and pvp servers, the least populated is usually the pvp server. It seems to suggest that more people prefer to play with limited pvp or consensual pvp. Carebear? Well its just a distribution of preference over the gamer population. Whatever label you stick onto them makes no difference.
4. You like to kill and loot off dead players, you like the ability to steal, good for you. Someone else may not like it. Fact is, endless ganging of new players, insulting gestures and outright slandering of the unwary defeated is the best way to kill off the interest of most newcoming starters. You can paint a glorious side of a pvp server. Others can paint an appaling aspect of pvp gameplay. Once again to each his own.
5. You seems to suggest that most of the pve server players have no idea what free pvp is. Well, I beg to differ. Many players bailed the pvp servers and join the pve servers and settle down. I know of no friend or guildies going the other way. All those I know that tried the pvp servers comes back with a curse. Well your mileage may differ.
6. Quoting Eve, well that is about the only open pvp game that is out there in the market and its not gaining a huge fanbase. Its a great game indeed for Eve goers but there are just not too many Eve goers. The rest of the games are a mixed bag of pvp/pve versions. That has to tell a bit about the general preference out there in the market. Once again, no carebear, non-care bear thing. Just preference among those ready to waste some hours online for fun or whatever.
Is FFA PVP a dying breed? Not really, is rock or classical music a dying breed? Not really, its a minor population in terms of numbers. So what? If you enjoy it, that is all that matters.
Well said and well argued. I don't see how anybody can disagree with this statement since it shows what PvP is all about. Sorry but a lot more people go to PvE because of the way PvP is and player looting? Do they seriously think we're stupid? So let me understand this... the PvPer's idea of fun is to kill a player to steal a piece of equipment that they had to work hard for? I'm sorry, but to me it seems like the PvPers in this case are the carebears because they'd rather go the easy route (gank innocent unassuming players) rather than put the effor that player did to get his piece of equipment.
By the way, calling us carebears and telling us to "accept it" doesn't get your post much credibility either. I'd rather have controlled and consensual PvP the way WoW has it because you know that when you go in, you're going to be fighting against people who REALLY want to PvP, not innocent level 1 players that just want to quest. This was a genius way of implementing PvP because it will separate the true PvPers (the ones that want to win at all cost and have the skill/equipment to back it up) from the stupid griefers (killing players 50 levels lower than you is FUN!)
Sorry but not dice, FFA PvP is retarded and has no place in today's MMO market. If you want to show off how big your e-peen show it by going up against people who want to kill you no matter what, instead of ganking on lowbies. Ganking on lowbies just shows what a tard you are.
I wonder why killing a lowbie is such a crime. MMORPGs are about progression whether its gear, equipment, skills, etc. You're never on a balanced playing field with others. There is always a new uber item to attain or new build.
Quests- they really have little place in MMORPGs in the 1st place. That's the problem. They're fake- no impact. They belong in single player RPGs. most any PVE veteran will agree there teaming becomes a lot more liberal in the absence of Quests.
you should try playing it before making an assumption. At least then you could make a good post against it. Like perhaps you could argue you like being put on a team with others in RvR.
Killing lowbies is fine. That's why you have higher levels who will come to your aid. If there are no victims, then there are no heroes.
Killing lowbies just shows how much of a coward you are, you're not willing to play on an even field and you'd rather prey on the weak so you can get loot and sell it. It's pathetic and distasteful. If you want to PvP, play with someone on the same level, prove how much you love PvP by fighting against someone who wants to kill you just as badly as you want to kill them... oh, and better yet, to prove if you really want to PvP, let there be NO gain from it. Yep you heard me, NO gain. In other words, if you REALLY want to PvP, then lete there be no player loot, no exp, no nothing, you're killing just because you want to PvP... Bet you don't want to fly that flag up anymore do you?
Quests not being a part of an MMORPG? ROFL!!!!!! What have you been smoking noob? What part of RPG of MMORPG don't you get? Quests are ESSENTIAL to an RPG experience as they give you a venue to get involved in the story line of the world. Without quests an MMORPG is ONLY a shooter game only with swords and sorcery. My god I can't believe you can be this ignorant.
I'm sorry but your arguments are moot. I have played PvP so I know I'm not making assumptions, and its because of PvP that most people change to PvE.
Quest are not essential- they should be optional. old games like UO I dont recall doing any quests. Dont need them in EVE Online. Perhaps you've never played a real virtual world MMO thus your inexperience is very apparent.
Killing in PVP without LOSS is senseless ganking (aka WoW). PVP with LOSS is PVP with objectives (EVE Online, UO, etc). We cannot have a change in power unless we have change. There must be gain/loss for change to incur
Killing a lowbie is an illusion. They are playing an RPG. We are never on equal footing. There will always be uneven numbers (FFA), uneven equipment, uneven levels, etc
to Lizard_SF: You rock! you just pwnd the op lol! I agree 100% with you. It's hillarious how he tries to make it sound like FFA PvP was somehow glorious back in the day when I myself remember experiencing how retarded and un-fun it was when I played EQ and UO on PvP servers. It was BECAUSE of FFA PvP that I stopped playing PvP altogether, it wasn't until I tried it in WoW that I ended up having fun. Why? because everyone is pretty much close to your level, so no more level 70's beating up level 1's that's just moronic. The second reason as I mentioned before, everyone that joins the PvP battlegrounds WANT to fight so they'll end up being more of a challenge than a player that only wants to do quests.
While there are those that restrict themselves to fighting equals in FFA PvP, the vast majority are gankers and griefers. Sorry, most people don't care to allow you to victimize them whenever you feel the need to kill someone. No matter how you want to romanticize it, that's how it turns out.
Everyone boasts about how well EVE's FFA PVP is so good. It's the same as any other game. Calling them pirates doesn't change the fact that they're the same griefers as in any other FFA PvP and they're probably one of the primary things that keeps EVE's pop from growing. As much as people want a good sci-fi skill-based MMO, EVE would have a much bigger pop IMO if it weren't for the assholes podding new players.
Giving control of your play time over to every angry immature player that you come across is just not a very good game model.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
to Lizard_SF: You rock! you just pwnd the op lol! I agree 100% with you. It's hillarious how he tries to make it sound like FFA PvP was somehow glorious back in the day when I myself remember experiencing how retarded and un-fun it was when I played EQ and UO on PvP servers. It was BECAUSE of FFA PvP that I stopped playing PvP altogether, it wasn't until I tried it in WoW that I ended up having fun. Why? because everyone is pretty much close to your level, so no more level 70's beating up level 1's that's just moronic. The second reason as I mentioned before, everyone that joins the PvP battlegrounds WANT to fight so they'll end up being more of a challenge than a player that only wants to do quests.
Your post really shows how immature you are.
I'd LOVE to hear your argument that points out my "immaturity" was it because I said "you rocked"? (sorry, born in the 80's sometimes old habits don't die) was it the "You pwned the Op"? blame the leet speakers for corrupting the english language. Was it because I actually agree with what Lizard SF had to say? GOD FORBID I actually agree with someone here and dare show my support for what they say right? Please oh please point out how "immature" I am because so far the only thing you had to say was one line with absolutely NO substance. Of course I'm sure you won't, or if you do, it will only end up showing that YOU'RE the one who's immature.
to Lizard_SF: You rock! you just pwnd the op lol! I agree 100% with you. It's hillarious how he tries to make it sound like FFA PvP was somehow glorious back in the day when I myself remember experiencing how retarded and un-fun it was when I played EQ and UO on PvP servers. It was BECAUSE of FFA PvP that I stopped playing PvP altogether, it wasn't until I tried it in WoW that I ended up having fun. Why? because everyone is pretty much close to your level, so no more level 70's beating up level 1's that's just moronic. The second reason as I mentioned before, everyone that joins the PvP battlegrounds WANT to fight so they'll end up being more of a challenge than a player that only wants to do quests.
Your post really shows how immature you are.
If not wanting to be a playground bully makes you immature, what makes you mature?
Quest are not essential- they should be optional. old games like UO I dont recall doing any quests. Dont need them in EVE Online. Perhaps you've never played a real virtual world MMO thus your inexperience is very apparent. Killing in PVP without LOSS is senseless ganking (aka WoW). PVP with LOSS is PVP with objectives (EVE Online, UO, etc). We cannot have a change in power unless we have change. There must be gain/loss for change to incur Killing a lowbie is an illusion. They are playing an RPG. We are never on equal footing. There will always be uneven numbers (FFA), uneven equipment, uneven levels, etc
Quests helped you get involved in the lore of the game, it made you udnerstand the world and UO had them and many played them.
Player looting is NOT PvP with an objective no matter how rosy you wish to paint it. It's called ganking/grienfing and NOBODY should have to be the victim just so you can grow your e-peen and boast how "great" you are because you killed someone 30-40 levels lower than you. Sorry, but we don't all want to be batting dummies for you, some of us just want to be able to log on and play without having to watch for idiots with no life who will gank me "just for kicks" Again, if you want to PvP badly, then it should be consensual and controlled, I point again to WoW's battlegrounds which is excellent because it separates those that really want to PvP from those that just want to grief new players.
Whether you wish to accept it or not, the masses have spoken, we will NOT be your batting dummies. If we wish to fight you, we will fight you on the same level. But we will NOT give away our hard earned loot just because you are too lazy to put in te work yourself.
to Lizard_SF: You rock! you just pwnd the op lol! I agree 100% with you. It's hillarious how he tries to make it sound like FFA PvP was somehow glorious back in the day when I myself remember experiencing how retarded and un-fun it was when I played EQ and UO on PvP servers. It was BECAUSE of FFA PvP that I stopped playing PvP altogether, it wasn't until I tried it in WoW that I ended up having fun. Why? because everyone is pretty much close to your level, so no more level 70's beating up level 1's that's just moronic. The second reason as I mentioned before, everyone that joins the PvP battlegrounds WANT to fight so they'll end up being more of a challenge than a player that only wants to do quests.
Your post really shows how immature you are.
If not wanting to be a playground bully makes you immature, what makes you mature?
While there are those that restrict themselves to fighting equals in FFA PvP, the vast majority are gankers and griefers. Sorry, most people don't care to allow you to victimize them whenever you feel the need to kill someone. No matter how you want to romanticize it, that's how it turns out. Everyone boasts about how well EVE's FFA PVP is so good. It's the same as any other game. Calling them pirates doesn't change the fact that they're the same griefers as in any other FFA PvP and they're probably one of the primary things that keeps EVE's pop from growing. As much as people want a good sci-fi skill-based MMO, EVE would have a much bigger pop IMO if it weren't for the assholes podding new players. Giving control of your play time over to every angry immature player that you come across is just not a very good game model.
EVE is over 200k which is way more then City of Heroes. you should try to get your facts straight checkout mmorpg charts its not hard to look this up please dont believe me lol
EVE grew from what 10k subs to 200k?! Most MMOs are lucky to 'sustain' their populace. sure its not WoW 1-2 mil+ in the US but its really great for a scifi MMO
That sums up the attitude that keeps FFA PVP from being successful.
Dreadlich, unfortunately, there are too many immature children in this world for FFA PvP to ever be succesful. Besides, if people want PvP, they can either a) join battlegrounds/RvR etc. or play an FPS like Halo or BF2 online.
An interesting thing to note. Someone boasted that "if their was a problem with a player then you could deal with it in game" well guess what? you can STILL do this even in PvE, it's called the /duel command. If they reject so what? doesn't that make you the winner of the argument anyway since you were "brave" enough to challenge the other player in the first place? Doesn't that make you the winner anyway because you were ready to back it up not just with words but by actually fighting?
Again, the only reason I can imagine a lot of these posters wanting FFA PvP is because they want to be able to gank whoever they want, whenever they want, for whatever sociopathic reason they have, or, as is my firm belief, because they're too damn lazy to put in the work into questing/crafting loot, so they'd rather rob an unsuspecting player. Just like the cowards they are.
Yet again you offer me challenge and healthy discussion, thank you sir.
I think that FFA PvP has it's place but only if the players assign meaning to it.
The solo PK ganker or PK gank squads really are, what someone else said, just socially unadjusted losers. Taking pleasure in killing others simply because you can? Pretty psychopathic. What's the point? Even worse then gankers are the griefers, killing someone who doesn't have a chance is just pathetic.
They are merely bandits like we see in real life. they've reduced their risks and prey on the weak. That is a good, freeform dynamic that creates many, many professions: bounty hunter, thief, pirate, anti-PK, etc. For a virtual world we want this. Now for a 'game' like WAR we dont need it. I dont want to play a 'game' I want a real, living virtual sandbox personally. But I find no fault in others for wanting a 'casual game'. Everything WAR offers too me I think Team Fortress 2 will do better. There are many 'games' out there but few, living virtual worlds
That must be the core difference then my friend, I've played in virtual worlds and I'd rather have a good time in a game then deal with the same crap people have to deal with in the Real World. To each his/her own. I agree that it does help to create a dynamic world, one a more static & rule oriented world cannot have, but the cost of such dynamic interaction is often far too high. One or two players have a great time in this pk vs. anti-pk system, but the rest of the community is just fodder, play things for their ultimate game.
You can try to say "survival of the fittest" or whatever, but humanity got where it is today through logic and restraint, not just competition. I see no point to ganking / griefing and applaud any game that tries to remove it completely. The only "control over the world" it gives is the ability to be an asshat. Sorry bud, just my opinion.
yep well said. But the bandits give rise to 'heroes'. Without the bandits / villains, there are no heroes in PVP. In PVE, only way u can really be a hero is by saving someone from a death penalty. In EQ- we had Heroes. In FFA games, we have 'heroes'. Especvially if there is consequence for wrong doing.
Recall, objectives are static. We zerg'em and rush'em. That's routine. But griefers- that's dynamic. I can be a real hero the more depraved griefers are allowed to be.
Again it gives rise to heroes, yes, but the player who is griefed/ganked will very rarely be the hero. As I said above, it's absolutely wonderful and grand to be in the PK/Anti-PK or hero/anti-hero system, i know it is much fun, but the rest of the population becomes just the ammunition for the little war. hence why MMOs of this type are much more "niche" and small scale then more "mainstream" titles
What I think people really want is to be able to create their own factions, their own alliances, their own enemies and rivalries... EVE does do this well, but unfortunately all it takes is a single asshat to completely ruin it for someone else. Also in EVE I hate the skill over time system. In a traditional skill advancement system, a new player could work their @$$ off to catch up quickly, but in EVE it's only a matter of surviving the waiting process... pretty lame in my opinion.
you could have not played EVE Online long that is not true at all. No one man is worth salt. It's about Fleets and Alliances. I've seen gankers try to come to our gates and they get 'ganked' at our gates unless they somehow beat our gate camps. Even then, I tend to not see them in our PVE areas (asteroid fields)
one man is not worth salt, true, but that one man can completely ruin the experience of another single user. will one PK asshat take down a major corp? no. Can that one PK asshat ruin one gamers experience ? oh yes.
There must be consequence to all actions. The single PK or PK gank squads should be outcasts of traditional society, as they were in UO. Players should fear helping or aligning with them because it will bring their own reputation dragging through the gutter. Players who choose to be asshats and spend their time trying to ruin the game for others should be treated like animals, vermin, not worthy of reprisal nor redemption...
Only if they are caught should they be punished and put in Jail and have to pay bounties off (pay fines). If they escape, then they escape (like real life). Checkout W.E.L.L. Online's FAQ they got the right idea.
There is nothing wrong with ganksquads. They are villains and we need heroes to stop them. Without griefers, I cannot be a hero (unless PVE is tweaked to be HARD and death penalty is present). In PVE though- you can be a hero and really save a friend. Heck, even in WoW. But in PVP- I cannot save my friend because his attacker respawns.
obviously they won't be punished unless caught, but i liked UOs system where PKs couldn't enter normal towns at all, they were effectively cut off from the rest of society, as they should have been. All games have respawn, unless they are perma-death (thankfully none of those around) so the risk vs. reward has to come from other factors. To most gamers in this fast paced world, the time lost due to death is much punishment. Throw in repair costs and rez sickness and most have enough penalty for PVE death. For PVP, instanced PVP like WoW bg's is NO different then a FPS game. Your death only means that you / your team is incapable of adding to the effort while dead. It's about winning/losing a short match. You can be a hero in this type of game, just not the same type of hero.. Unfortunately, there is NO permanence to any of it, hence, why I like the idea of open world territory control through factional PVP as best.
And some people will still love to play that role. We saw this in UO.
The valiant anti-PKs should be rewarded and celebrated. Thrust upon a throne of honor as heroes.
There is no good, no evil. Only grey. A Hero in one town is a Villain in another. Anti-Pker might be a hero in his town- but a villain to another town. in real life mankind is split off into communities alignment is something known to 'you' and there is reputation amongst communities.
Well obviosly the PKs will regard the anti-pker as evil. I'm just trying to say that the game should be designed so the life of a criminal (PK) is more dangerous and difficult, like my UO example where PKs could not enter towns and use resources in towns, etc.
However, I care bout my neighbor more then about someone in nother country. In UO, we could not protect our friends when we went offline. There was no bottlenecks or soverignty. EVE Online has Bottlenecks. I can protect my fellow man there and fights between PKers will rage to epic proportions. I argue EVE Online is not akin to FFA PVP but something more advanced, evolved.
EVE is war based off of economics and politics... could anything be closer to real life? You are correct that perhaps EVE is something more advanced, something more evolved.... but I seek a game to enjoy, the real world is F'd up enough for me to want to worry about the same things in my alternate life. Again, fundamental difference between you and I my friend.
I think the big problem with faction based PVP like in WAR and WoW is that there are only two factions, and they are assigned by race. In UO I think there were 5 different factions fighting for power, as well as Order vs. Chaos. If you must have faction based PVP, gives players many more options on which faction to join, but don't base it off of something as obviously problematic as Race.
True, I agree here. World Of Warcraft got it so wrong though. In the real warcraft lore orcs and mankind work together against the Legion. They are comrades. WoW perverted the lore and tossed away the hardwork and years of lore and pissed it into the wind. Alliance and Horde are not at war in the lore nor Warcraft 3 RTS
All signs point to Mythic adding much more importance and focus on open world PVP (ala DaoC) then the instanced, WoW type battlegrounds. If they don't, if they make it WoW battlegrounds PVP but with 30 bg's instead of 4, it'll still be horrible.
It wont be open PVP but rather I suspect its limited to instances and capped around 100. All of your accomplishments will merely be an illusion- it will be wiped sooner or later.
But I commend them for trying I will check it out when it comes out if Time favors me
They do have (so they say) 30-35 instanced PVP like WoW battlegrounds in for launch, AND open world PVP objectives to capture/control... from all I have heard, MAJOR change happening in game development so that open world is worth as much if not more victory points (you'll have to watch the podcasts) as the instanced scenarios. Seems Mythic is listening to the players who said they wanted the open-world PVP to be the meat and potatoes of RvR.
PVP should always be a choice. I still say to this date that the Trammel / Felucca split was the best thing UO ever did. The factions PVP was #2.
The only people who hated the Trammel/Felucca split were the PK Ganker Asshats who lost 99% of their fresh meat and were forced to fight fairly. Many of them found fun and worthy PVP again with the Factions system.
But all of this only worked because gear meant nothing, there were no levels or classes, and you could grind up your skills to near max in a day (they allowed / didn't stop macroing for the Love of Pete)
I'd be much more excited and pumped for Darkfall if it didn't make the TRAGIC mistake of trying to cross genre boundries and add the absolutely horrible idea of real time FPS combat. "But it worked in Oblivion!" Yes, because it's not online. I think this alone will keep Darkfall at a MORPG rather then a MMORPG... if it isn't Vaporware
So you are okay with Meleers getting raped by Mages? You realize us Warriors cannot touch a Mage in PVP do you? In almost every MMO you do realize us Warriors cant get within ten feet without some sort of 'Dash' ability and Stuns and Stealth. Realtime Dodging gives us Use of Terrain, it alleviates zerging, gives us Bottlenecks, allows meleers to close range on Mages, allows for more player skill, allows for more player styles to blend through. It would be Insane not to integrate realtime dodging and try to call yourself a PVP based MMO.
This is why I say is not a PVP focused MMO but rather an MMORPG with PVE/PVP. You must have player skill properly accounted for. At least UO was freeform thus allowing my player skill to blend through better. Was not bound by a heavily restricted, cookie cutter Class
I see what you are arguring for, however, it is impossible to compare real life combat tactics in a game that involves magic. They have to make magic = ranged = melee some way or another in a game. In real life, ranged will always have the advantage over melee, unless melee can find a way to get in close combat range. I always play a melee character even though they always get the short end of the stick in terms of balancing... why? I like hitting things with massive swords/axes. It's fun.
Throwing in real time dodging and aiming and all of that makes a game a FPS, in my opinion. I play REAL FPS games like Halo for that. I play MMORPGs for the RPG factor AND the MMO factor. Having FPS elements ruins that for me. Oh and I love skill based instead of cookie cutter classes, but I appreciate not getting my @$$ handed to me because of imbalance and "flavor of the month" builds even more so.
While there are those that restrict themselves to fighting equals in FFA PvP, the vast majority are gankers and griefers. Sorry, most people don't care to allow you to victimize them whenever you feel the need to kill someone. No matter how you want to romanticize it, that's how it turns out. Everyone boasts about how well EVE's FFA PVP is so good. It's the same as any other game. Calling them pirates doesn't change the fact that they're the same griefers as in any other FFA PvP and they're probably one of the primary things that keeps EVE's pop from growing. As much as people want a good sci-fi skill-based MMO, EVE would have a much bigger pop IMO if it weren't for the assholes podding new players. Giving control of your play time over to every angry immature player that you come across is just not a very good game model.
EVE is over 200k which is way more then City of Heroes. you should try to get your facts straight checkout mmorpg charts its not hard to look this up please dont believe me lol
EVE grew from what 10k subs to 200k?! Most MMOs are lucky to 'sustain' their populace. sure its not WoW 1-2 mil+ in the US but its really great for a scifi MMO
Not disputing that. I'm saying there are lots of MMO players that would love to play EVE, but are turned off by the constant loss of all their gains due to griefers (even insured it gets discouraging). I'd probably still play, but there's no way I can convince my friends to play it.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
While there are those that restrict themselves to fighting equals in FFA PvP, the vast majority are gankers and griefers. Sorry, most people don't care to allow you to victimize them whenever you feel the need to kill someone. No matter how you want to romanticize it, that's how it turns out. Everyone boasts about how well EVE's FFA PVP is so good. It's the same as any other game. Calling them pirates doesn't change the fact that they're the same griefers as in any other FFA PvP and they're probably one of the primary things that keeps EVE's pop from growing. As much as people want a good sci-fi skill-based MMO, EVE would have a much bigger pop IMO if it weren't for the assholes podding new players. Giving control of your play time over to every angry immature player that you come across is just not a very good game model.
EVE is over 200k which is way more then City of Heroes. you should try to get your facts straight checkout mmorpg charts its not hard to look this up please dont believe me lol
EVE grew from what 10k subs to 200k?! Most MMOs are lucky to 'sustain' their populace. sure its not WoW 1-2 mil+ in the US but its really great for a scifi MMO
Not disputing that. I'm saying there are lots of MMO players that would love to play EVE, but are turned off by the constant loss of all their gains due to griefers (even insured it gets discouraging). I'd probably still play, but there's no way I can convince my friends to play it.
tell them EVE Online has platnium insurance. Get a crafter to make you a ship and you will probably come out ahead from dying. I've flown and lost multiple ships. Its not tough to lose a 'normal' ship.
cant speak for a Titan or mothership but u cant fly those anyway unless you've been around for what 2 years? I dunno I never plan to fly a Titan/Mothership.
plus there is high sec space. I've never died in high sec thats why you have cops. only folks that die in high sec are the traders that have priceless ores in them at best and Corps thats been wardec'ed. War declarations are seriously costly though
only reason my friends wont play is cause they want an Avatar. so hoping the walking ambulation patch comes out soon
Quest are not essential- they should be optional. old games like UO I dont recall doing any quests. Dont need them in EVE Online. Perhaps you've never played a real virtual world MMO thus your inexperience is very apparent. Killing in PVP without LOSS is senseless ganking (aka WoW). PVP with LOSS is PVP with objectives (EVE Online, UO, etc). We cannot have a change in power unless we have change. There must be gain/loss for change to incur Killing a lowbie is an illusion. They are playing an RPG. We are never on equal footing. There will always be uneven numbers (FFA), uneven equipment, uneven levels, etc
I agree with you, questing should be optional. However, I believe that FFA PVP, RVR, PVE, Raiding, Grouping, and soloing should all be optional as well. I have always felt that the best games are the ones that give you a lot of options.
Eve had PVE quests (missions). A lot of people ran them so they could purchase ships. I don't believe that the missions were detrimental to the game.
I don't really agree with you that there has to be loss in order to have objectives. There could be strategic objects (i.e. quests) like sneaking into enemy territory. Not everything has to directly involve killing.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
First, since I am a carebear, I am tolerant. I think, MMOs should have one server for those who really want FFA PVP. Personally, its something I 100% do not understand. Isnt the war of everyone against everyone the worst possible scenario? Sorry, but RL has this enough for me, I prefer to fight with rules. As in a sports teams, be it soccer or football, its your team VS the other team within rules. Everything else is just mindless brutality, which I enjoy not at all. I have tried it, and it just pisses me off like hell, reading a quest, doing a mission and some aggro kid kills me. Since I dont enjoy dedicating myself to low feelings like revenge, it has nothing I gain from it. I like to compete and PVP, but FFA is just chaos and anarchy. Sorry mate, no thanks. But as I said, they can make FFA servers for those with such a taste.
Personally I want to win with a team of friends against some other team, within rules. Kill them and then we all go to drink a beer together and laugh about it. I have no sense of making a sports into personal, egoistic vendettas.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I actually read the whole thread, that must be worth something? [cloak of attention span +5]?
You want to know why people have such bad opinions of FFA PvP? It's simple, no game has yet done it well. Given the right mechanics at some point a FFA PvP game will be standard, because it will offer somthing non ffapvp can't give - real thrill. Simple, I've played Planetside on and off since launch and despite it s humungous falws I'll always go back, because from the get go my heart will be in my mouth and what ever I happen to be eating spat all over the monitor.
Anyhow, my take is real simple. FFA PvP is the way of the future, BUT (and if you didn't notice, its a big 'but) there are certain rules that MUST exist;
You simply can not have levels, it doesn't work, it will never thrive and the only people playing are griefers of one kind or another.
You absolutely can not have hollier than though gear, you can have buffed gear and buffed stats of a whole variety, but they all need to be counteracted with debuffs. Putting it simply there should be massive, massive, massive span for specialisation of your char but the whole system must run around a pros and cons basics
There can be NO safe areas ever (including zoneing or other such crap). That is not to say you will never be able to go afk (in fact I'd encourage it especially if I'm nearby), FFA PvP is just that people, you want to leave the game for a time, log the fuck off! Or stand the risk of dieing without whining.
There are a number of other things which imo would be excellent ideas some mentioned in this thread, but the above are imperative.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
- Free for all PVP. Kill a player anywhere, anytime for any reason we choose. Think for a minute what kind of world this could be. You could kill in the name of good or evil. You could protect players from harm or CAUSE them harm.
- Enjoy taking a players loot after they've been killed.
- Enjoy stealing from other players.
- Enjoy fighting against evil players and establishing order in a chaotic mmorpg environment.
- Being able to choose if your actions are "Good" or "Evil"
why would you want to encourage the kind of behavior that in real life would make you a criminal.
Do we really want our kids to be taught that settling differences with Violence is ok? Do we want them to believe that if they want something someone else has they should just take it?
The thrill you get is from doing these thing to other people and not npc's I understand that. You associate this violence with/against the person playing, not against an imaginary person/monster. There are people who allow that line to get blurred in real life they stop seeing people as people to justify their actions.
If you feel the need to unleash violence on people, either in real life or in a MMO in order to get your rush, then i hope to God you never live near me. becasue you are a short fuse away from being a bad person
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
Comments
I have no interest in being a hero in a MMORPG. It is not why I play the game.
All my posts are in direct response to your statement that "Quests have very little place in MMORPGs." It is the quests and objectives that give enjoyment to alot of the people that PVP (myself included). Being caught on the hamster wheel of defending a town or territory over and over again every single day does not sound enjoyable (which is probably why I did not enjoy playing EVE all that much). This type of play also promotes too much drama.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Sorry I didn't know that mindless killing to encourage more mindless killing was the way to go for a open PvP game.
I completely forgot about territory control, power grabbing, and politics.
IMO the FFA PvP I keep hearing about seems to have as much reason to it as killing 50 NPC's.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
to Lizard_SF: You rock! you just pwnd the op lol! I agree 100% with you. It's hillarious how he tries to make it sound like FFA PvP was somehow glorious back in the day when I myself remember experiencing how retarded and un-fun it was when I played EQ and UO on PvP servers. It was BECAUSE of FFA PvP that I stopped playing PvP altogether, it wasn't until I tried it in WoW that I ended up having fun. Why? because everyone is pretty much close to your level, so no more level 70's beating up level 1's that's just moronic. The second reason as I mentioned before, everyone that joins the PvP battlegrounds WANT to fight so they'll end up being more of a challenge than a player that only wants to do quests.
Well said and well argued. I don't see how anybody can disagree with this statement since it shows what PvP is all about. Sorry but a lot more people go to PvE because of the way PvP is and player looting? Do they seriously think we're stupid? So let me understand this... the PvPer's idea of fun is to kill a player to steal a piece of equipment that they had to work hard for? I'm sorry, but to me it seems like the PvPers in this case are the carebears because they'd rather go the easy route (gank innocent unassuming players) rather than put the effor that player did to get his piece of equipment.
By the way, calling us carebears and telling us to "accept it" doesn't get your post much credibility either. I'd rather have controlled and consensual PvP the way WoW has it because you know that when you go in, you're going to be fighting against people who REALLY want to PvP, not innocent level 1 players that just want to quest. This was a genius way of implementing PvP because it will separate the true PvPers (the ones that want to win at all cost and have the skill/equipment to back it up) from the stupid griefers (killing players 50 levels lower than you is FUN!)
Sorry but not dice, FFA PvP is retarded and has no place in today's MMO market. If you want to show off how big your e-peen show it by going up against people who want to kill you no matter what, instead of ganking on lowbies. Ganking on lowbies just shows what a tard you are.
I wonder why killing a lowbie is such a crime. MMORPGs are about progression whether its gear, equipment, skills, etc. You're never on a balanced playing field with others. There is always a new uber item to attain or new build.
Quests- they really have little place in MMORPGs in the 1st place. That's the problem. They're fake- no impact. They belong in single player RPGs. most any PVE veteran will agree there teaming becomes a lot more liberal in the absence of Quests.
you should try playing it before making an assumption. At least then you could make a good post against it. Like perhaps you could argue you like being put on a team with others in RvR.
Killing lowbies is fine. That's why you have higher levels who will come to your aid. If there are no victims, then there are no heroes.
Killing lowbies just shows how much of a coward you are, you're not willing to play on an even field and you'd rather prey on the weak so you can get loot and sell it. It's pathetic and distasteful. If you want to PvP, play with someone on the same level, prove how much you love PvP by fighting against someone who wants to kill you just as badly as you want to kill them... oh, and better yet, to prove if you really want to PvP, let there be NO gain from it. Yep you heard me, NO gain. In other words, if you REALLY want to PvP, then lete there be no player loot, no exp, no nothing, you're killing just because you want to PvP... Bet you don't want to fly that flag up anymore do you?
Quests not being a part of an MMORPG? ROFL!!!!!! What have you been smoking noob? What part of RPG of MMORPG don't you get? Quests are ESSENTIAL to an RPG experience as they give you a venue to get involved in the story line of the world. Without quests an MMORPG is ONLY a shooter game only with swords and sorcery. My god I can't believe you can be this ignorant.
I'm sorry but your arguments are moot. I have played PvP so I know I'm not making assumptions, and its because of PvP that most people change to PvE.
Well said and well argued. I don't see how anybody can disagree with this statement since it shows what PvP is all about. Sorry but a lot more people go to PvE because of the way PvP is and player looting? Do they seriously think we're stupid? So let me understand this... the PvPer's idea of fun is to kill a player to steal a piece of equipment that they had to work hard for? I'm sorry, but to me it seems like the PvPers in this case are the carebears because they'd rather go the easy route (gank innocent unassuming players) rather than put the effor that player did to get his piece of equipment.
By the way, calling us carebears and telling us to "accept it" doesn't get your post much credibility either. I'd rather have controlled and consensual PvP the way WoW has it because you know that when you go in, you're going to be fighting against people who REALLY want to PvP, not innocent level 1 players that just want to quest. This was a genius way of implementing PvP because it will separate the true PvPers (the ones that want to win at all cost and have the skill/equipment to back it up) from the stupid griefers (killing players 50 levels lower than you is FUN!)
Sorry but not dice, FFA PvP is retarded and has no place in today's MMO market. If you want to show off how big your e-peen show it by going up against people who want to kill you no matter what, instead of ganking on lowbies. Ganking on lowbies just shows what a tard you are.
I wonder why killing a lowbie is such a crime. MMORPGs are about progression whether its gear, equipment, skills, etc. You're never on a balanced playing field with others. There is always a new uber item to attain or new build.
Quests- they really have little place in MMORPGs in the 1st place. That's the problem. They're fake- no impact. They belong in single player RPGs. most any PVE veteran will agree there teaming becomes a lot more liberal in the absence of Quests.
you should try playing it before making an assumption. At least then you could make a good post against it. Like perhaps you could argue you like being put on a team with others in RvR.
Killing lowbies is fine. That's why you have higher levels who will come to your aid. If there are no victims, then there are no heroes.
Killing lowbies just shows how much of a coward you are, you're not willing to play on an even field and you'd rather prey on the weak so you can get loot and sell it. It's pathetic and distasteful. If you want to PvP, play with someone on the same level, prove how much you love PvP by fighting against someone who wants to kill you just as badly as you want to kill them... oh, and better yet, to prove if you really want to PvP, let there be NO gain from it. Yep you heard me, NO gain. In other words, if you REALLY want to PvP, then lete there be no player loot, no exp, no nothing, you're killing just because you want to PvP... Bet you don't want to fly that flag up anymore do you?
Quests not being a part of an MMORPG? ROFL!!!!!! What have you been smoking noob? What part of RPG of MMORPG don't you get? Quests are ESSENTIAL to an RPG experience as they give you a venue to get involved in the story line of the world. Without quests an MMORPG is ONLY a shooter game only with swords and sorcery. My god I can't believe you can be this ignorant.
I'm sorry but your arguments are moot. I have played PvP so I know I'm not making assumptions, and its because of PvP that most people change to PvE.
Quest are not essential- they should be optional. old games like UO I dont recall doing any quests. Dont need them in EVE Online. Perhaps you've never played a real virtual world MMO thus your inexperience is very apparent.
Killing in PVP without LOSS is senseless ganking (aka WoW). PVP with LOSS is PVP with objectives (EVE Online, UO, etc). We cannot have a change in power unless we have change. There must be gain/loss for change to incur
Killing a lowbie is an illusion. They are playing an RPG. We are never on equal footing. There will always be uneven numbers (FFA), uneven equipment, uneven levels, etc
Your post really shows how immature you are.
While there are those that restrict themselves to fighting equals in FFA PvP, the vast majority are gankers and griefers. Sorry, most people don't care to allow you to victimize them whenever you feel the need to kill someone. No matter how you want to romanticize it, that's how it turns out.
Everyone boasts about how well EVE's FFA PVP is so good. It's the same as any other game. Calling them pirates doesn't change the fact that they're the same griefers as in any other FFA PvP and they're probably one of the primary things that keeps EVE's pop from growing. As much as people want a good sci-fi skill-based MMO, EVE would have a much bigger pop IMO if it weren't for the assholes podding new players.
Giving control of your play time over to every angry immature player that you come across is just not a very good game model.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Your post really shows how immature you are.
If not wanting to be a playground bully makes you immature, what makes you mature?
look at all the cute little carebears.
Quests helped you get involved in the lore of the game, it made you udnerstand the world and UO had them and many played them.
Player looting is NOT PvP with an objective no matter how rosy you wish to paint it. It's called ganking/grienfing and NOBODY should have to be the victim just so you can grow your e-peen and boast how "great" you are because you killed someone 30-40 levels lower than you. Sorry, but we don't all want to be batting dummies for you, some of us just want to be able to log on and play without having to watch for idiots with no life who will gank me "just for kicks" Again, if you want to PvP badly, then it should be consensual and controlled, I point again to WoW's battlegrounds which is excellent because it separates those that really want to PvP from those that just want to grief new players.
Whether you wish to accept it or not, the masses have spoken, we will NOT be your batting dummies. If we wish to fight you, we will fight you on the same level. But we will NOT give away our hard earned loot just because you are too lazy to put in te work yourself.
predicts godwin's law coming into play in a few posts.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
That sums up the attitude that keeps FFA PVP from being successful.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
EVE grew from what 10k subs to 200k?! Most MMOs are lucky to 'sustain' their populace. sure its not WoW 1-2 mil+ in the US but its really great for a scifi MMO
An interesting thing to note. Someone boasted that "if their was a problem with a player then you could deal with it in game" well guess what? you can STILL do this even in PvE, it's called the /duel command. If they reject so what? doesn't that make you the winner of the argument anyway since you were "brave" enough to challenge the other player in the first place? Doesn't that make you the winner anyway because you were ready to back it up not just with words but by actually fighting?
Again, the only reason I can imagine a lot of these posters wanting FFA PvP is because they want to be able to gank whoever they want, whenever they want, for whatever sociopathic reason they have, or, as is my firm belief, because they're too damn lazy to put in the work into questing/crafting loot, so they'd rather rob an unsuspecting player. Just like the cowards they are.
Yet again you offer me challenge and healthy discussion, thank you sir.
I think that FFA PvP has it's place but only if the players assign meaning to it.
The solo PK ganker or PK gank squads really are, what someone else said, just socially unadjusted losers. Taking pleasure in killing others simply because you can? Pretty psychopathic. What's the point? Even worse then gankers are the griefers, killing someone who doesn't have a chance is just pathetic.
They are merely bandits like we see in real life. they've reduced their risks and prey on the weak. That is a good, freeform dynamic that creates many, many professions: bounty hunter, thief, pirate, anti-PK, etc. For a virtual world we want this. Now for a 'game' like WAR we dont need it. I dont want to play a 'game' I want a real, living virtual sandbox personally. But I find no fault in others for wanting a 'casual game'. Everything WAR offers too me I think Team Fortress 2 will do better. There are many 'games' out there but few, living virtual worlds
That must be the core difference then my friend, I've played in virtual worlds and I'd rather have a good time in a game then deal with the same crap people have to deal with in the Real World. To each his/her own. I agree that it does help to create a dynamic world, one a more static & rule oriented world cannot have, but the cost of such dynamic interaction is often far too high. One or two players have a great time in this pk vs. anti-pk system, but the rest of the community is just fodder, play things for their ultimate game.
You can try to say "survival of the fittest" or whatever, but humanity got where it is today through logic and restraint, not just competition. I see no point to ganking / griefing and applaud any game that tries to remove it completely. The only "control over the world" it gives is the ability to be an asshat. Sorry bud, just my opinion.
yep well said. But the bandits give rise to 'heroes'. Without the bandits / villains, there are no heroes in PVP. In PVE, only way u can really be a hero is by saving someone from a death penalty. In EQ- we had Heroes. In FFA games, we have 'heroes'. Especvially if there is consequence for wrong doing.
Recall, objectives are static. We zerg'em and rush'em. That's routine. But griefers- that's dynamic. I can be a real hero the more depraved griefers are allowed to be.
Again it gives rise to heroes, yes, but the player who is griefed/ganked will very rarely be the hero. As I said above, it's absolutely wonderful and grand to be in the PK/Anti-PK or hero/anti-hero system, i know it is much fun, but the rest of the population becomes just the ammunition for the little war. hence why MMOs of this type are much more "niche" and small scale then more "mainstream" titles
What I think people really want is to be able to create their own factions, their own alliances, their own enemies and rivalries... EVE does do this well, but unfortunately all it takes is a single asshat to completely ruin it for someone else. Also in EVE I hate the skill over time system. In a traditional skill advancement system, a new player could work their @$$ off to catch up quickly, but in EVE it's only a matter of surviving the waiting process... pretty lame in my opinion.
you could have not played EVE Online long that is not true at all. No one man is worth salt. It's about Fleets and Alliances. I've seen gankers try to come to our gates and they get 'ganked' at our gates unless they somehow beat our gate camps. Even then, I tend to not see them in our PVE areas (asteroid fields)
one man is not worth salt, true, but that one man can completely ruin the experience of another single user. will one PK asshat take down a major corp? no. Can that one PK asshat ruin one gamers experience ? oh yes.
There must be consequence to all actions. The single PK or PK gank squads should be outcasts of traditional society, as they were in UO. Players should fear helping or aligning with them because it will bring their own reputation dragging through the gutter. Players who choose to be asshats and spend their time trying to ruin the game for others should be treated like animals, vermin, not worthy of reprisal nor redemption...
Only if they are caught should they be punished and put in Jail and have to pay bounties off (pay fines). If they escape, then they escape (like real life). Checkout W.E.L.L. Online's FAQ they got the right idea.
There is nothing wrong with ganksquads. They are villains and we need heroes to stop them. Without griefers, I cannot be a hero (unless PVE is tweaked to be HARD and death penalty is present). In PVE though- you can be a hero and really save a friend. Heck, even in WoW. But in PVP- I cannot save my friend because his attacker respawns.
obviously they won't be punished unless caught, but i liked UOs system where PKs couldn't enter normal towns at all, they were effectively cut off from the rest of society, as they should have been. All games have respawn, unless they are perma-death (thankfully none of those around) so the risk vs. reward has to come from other factors. To most gamers in this fast paced world, the time lost due to death is much punishment. Throw in repair costs and rez sickness and most have enough penalty for PVE death. For PVP, instanced PVP like WoW bg's is NO different then a FPS game. Your death only means that you / your team is incapable of adding to the effort while dead. It's about winning/losing a short match. You can be a hero in this type of game, just not the same type of hero.. Unfortunately, there is NO permanence to any of it, hence, why I like the idea of open world territory control through factional PVP as best.
And some people will still love to play that role. We saw this in UO.
The valiant anti-PKs should be rewarded and celebrated. Thrust upon a throne of honor as heroes.
There is no good, no evil. Only grey. A Hero in one town is a Villain in another. Anti-Pker might be a hero in his town- but a villain to another town. in real life mankind is split off into communities alignment is something known to 'you' and there is reputation amongst communities.
Well obviosly the PKs will regard the anti-pker as evil. I'm just trying to say that the game should be designed so the life of a criminal (PK) is more dangerous and difficult, like my UO example where PKs could not enter towns and use resources in towns, etc.
However, I care bout my neighbor more then about someone in nother country. In UO, we could not protect our friends when we went offline. There was no bottlenecks or soverignty. EVE Online has Bottlenecks. I can protect my fellow man there and fights between PKers will rage to epic proportions. I argue EVE Online is not akin to FFA PVP but something more advanced, evolved.
EVE is war based off of economics and politics... could anything be closer to real life? You are correct that perhaps EVE is something more advanced, something more evolved.... but I seek a game to enjoy, the real world is F'd up enough for me to want to worry about the same things in my alternate life. Again, fundamental difference between you and I my friend.
I think the big problem with faction based PVP like in WAR and WoW is that there are only two factions, and they are assigned by race. In UO I think there were 5 different factions fighting for power, as well as Order vs. Chaos. If you must have faction based PVP, gives players many more options on which faction to join, but don't base it off of something as obviously problematic as Race.
True, I agree here. World Of Warcraft got it so wrong though. In the real warcraft lore orcs and mankind work together against the Legion. They are comrades. WoW perverted the lore and tossed away the hardwork and years of lore and pissed it into the wind. Alliance and Horde are not at war in the lore nor Warcraft 3 RTS
All signs point to Mythic adding much more importance and focus on open world PVP (ala DaoC) then the instanced, WoW type battlegrounds. If they don't, if they make it WoW battlegrounds PVP but with 30 bg's instead of 4, it'll still be horrible.
It wont be open PVP but rather I suspect its limited to instances and capped around 100. All of your accomplishments will merely be an illusion- it will be wiped sooner or later.
But I commend them for trying I will check it out when it comes out if Time favors me
They do have (so they say) 30-35 instanced PVP like WoW battlegrounds in for launch, AND open world PVP objectives to capture/control... from all I have heard, MAJOR change happening in game development so that open world is worth as much if not more victory points (you'll have to watch the podcasts) as the instanced scenarios. Seems Mythic is listening to the players who said they wanted the open-world PVP to be the meat and potatoes of RvR.
PVP should always be a choice. I still say to this date that the Trammel / Felucca split was the best thing UO ever did. The factions PVP was #2.
The only people who hated the Trammel/Felucca split were the PK Ganker Asshats who lost 99% of their fresh meat and were forced to fight fairly. Many of them found fun and worthy PVP again with the Factions system.
But all of this only worked because gear meant nothing, there were no levels or classes, and you could grind up your skills to near max in a day (they allowed / didn't stop macroing for the Love of Pete)
I'd be much more excited and pumped for Darkfall if it didn't make the TRAGIC mistake of trying to cross genre boundries and add the absolutely horrible idea of real time FPS combat. "But it worked in Oblivion!" Yes, because it's not online. I think this alone will keep Darkfall at a MORPG rather then a MMORPG... if it isn't Vaporware
So you are okay with Meleers getting raped by Mages? You realize us Warriors cannot touch a Mage in PVP do you? In almost every MMO you do realize us Warriors cant get within ten feet without some sort of 'Dash' ability and Stuns and Stealth. Realtime Dodging gives us Use of Terrain, it alleviates zerging, gives us Bottlenecks, allows meleers to close range on Mages, allows for more player skill, allows for more player styles to blend through. It would be Insane not to integrate realtime dodging and try to call yourself a PVP based MMO.
This is why I say is not a PVP focused MMO but rather an MMORPG with PVE/PVP. You must have player skill properly accounted for. At least UO was freeform thus allowing my player skill to blend through better. Was not bound by a heavily restricted, cookie cutter Class
I see what you are arguring for, however, it is impossible to compare real life combat tactics in a game that involves magic. They have to make magic = ranged = melee some way or another in a game. In real life, ranged will always have the advantage over melee, unless melee can find a way to get in close combat range. I always play a melee character even though they always get the short end of the stick in terms of balancing... why? I like hitting things with massive swords/axes. It's fun.
Throwing in real time dodging and aiming and all of that makes a game a FPS, in my opinion. I play REAL FPS games like Halo for that. I play MMORPGs for the RPG factor AND the MMO factor. Having FPS elements ruins that for me. Oh and I love skill based instead of cookie cutter classes, but I appreciate not getting my @$$ handed to me because of imbalance and "flavor of the month" builds even more so.
EVE grew from what 10k subs to 200k?! Most MMOs are lucky to 'sustain' their populace. sure its not WoW 1-2 mil+ in the US but its really great for a scifi MMO
Not disputing that. I'm saying there are lots of MMO players that would love to play EVE, but are turned off by the constant loss of all their gains due to griefers (even insured it gets discouraging). I'd probably still play, but there's no way I can convince my friends to play it.MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
EVE grew from what 10k subs to 200k?! Most MMOs are lucky to 'sustain' their populace. sure its not WoW 1-2 mil+ in the US but its really great for a scifi MMO
Not disputing that. I'm saying there are lots of MMO players that would love to play EVE, but are turned off by the constant loss of all their gains due to griefers (even insured it gets discouraging). I'd probably still play, but there's no way I can convince my friends to play it.tell them EVE Online has platnium insurance. Get a crafter to make you a ship and you will probably come out ahead from dying. I've flown and lost multiple ships. Its not tough to lose a 'normal' ship.
cant speak for a Titan or mothership but u cant fly those anyway unless you've been around for what 2 years? I dunno I never plan to fly a Titan/Mothership.
plus there is high sec space. I've never died in high sec thats why you have cops. only folks that die in high sec are the traders that have priceless ores in them at best and Corps thats been wardec'ed. War declarations are seriously costly though
only reason my friends wont play is cause they want an Avatar. so hoping the walking ambulation patch comes out soon
I agree with you, questing should be optional. However, I believe that FFA PVP, RVR, PVE, Raiding, Grouping, and soloing should all be optional as well. I have always felt that the best games are the ones that give you a lot of options.
Eve had PVE quests (missions). A lot of people ran them so they could purchase ships. I don't believe that the missions were detrimental to the game.
I don't really agree with you that there has to be loss in order to have objectives. There could be strategic objects (i.e. quests) like sneaking into enemy territory. Not everything has to directly involve killing.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Is that what sociopaths call normal people nowadays? I admit to being behind on the literature.
First, since I am a carebear, I am tolerant. I think, MMOs should have one server for those who really want FFA PVP. Personally, its something I 100% do not understand. Isnt the war of everyone against everyone the worst possible scenario? Sorry, but RL has this enough for me, I prefer to fight with rules. As in a sports teams, be it soccer or football, its your team VS the other team within rules. Everything else is just mindless brutality, which I enjoy not at all. I have tried it, and it just pisses me off like hell, reading a quest, doing a mission and some aggro kid kills me. Since I dont enjoy dedicating myself to low feelings like revenge, it has nothing I gain from it. I like to compete and PVP, but FFA is just chaos and anarchy. Sorry mate, no thanks. But as I said, they can make FFA servers for those with such a taste.
Personally I want to win with a team of friends against some other team, within rules. Kill them and then we all go to drink a beer together and laugh about it. I have no sense of making a sports into personal, egoistic vendettas.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I actually read the whole thread, that must be worth something? [cloak of attention span +5]?
You want to know why people have such bad opinions of FFA PvP? It's simple, no game has yet done it well. Given the right mechanics at some point a FFA PvP game will be standard, because it will offer somthing non ffapvp can't give - real thrill. Simple, I've played Planetside on and off since launch and despite it s humungous falws I'll always go back, because from the get go my heart will be in my mouth and what ever I happen to be eating spat all over the monitor.
Anyhow, my take is real simple. FFA PvP is the way of the future, BUT (and if you didn't notice, its a big 'but) there are certain rules that MUST exist;
There are a number of other things which imo would be excellent ideas some mentioned in this thread, but the above are imperative.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
- Free for all PVP. Kill a player anywhere, anytime for any reason we choose. Think for a minute what kind of world this could be. You could kill in the name of good or evil. You could protect players from harm or CAUSE them harm.
- Enjoy taking a players loot after they've been killed.
- Enjoy stealing from other players.
- Enjoy fighting against evil players and establishing order in a chaotic mmorpg environment.
- Being able to choose if your actions are "Good" or "Evil"
why would you want to encourage the kind of behavior that in real life would make you a criminal.
Do we really want our kids to be taught that settling differences with Violence is ok? Do we want them to believe that if they want something someone else has they should just take it?
The thrill you get is from doing these thing to other people and not npc's I understand that. You associate this violence with/against the person playing, not against an imaginary person/monster. There are people who allow that line to get blurred in real life they stop seeing people as people to justify their actions.
If you feel the need to unleash violence on people, either in real life or in a MMO in order to get your rush, then i hope to God you never live near me. becasue you are a short fuse away from being a bad person
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze