So I see that the screen writers are staying active while on strike...that is good to know. ahahahaha comic gold! As for the topic... a lot of the stuff they mention is why lots of us don't want to be in the military to begin with. We mention the stuff and it means nothing, let it come from a veteran and it gets press - go figure. Dunno about you guys but to DIE for something I need to believe in the cause and I just don't for this war. I think American leaders toss their weight around in other countries and are grasping at straws trying to remove all terrorists on the planet by taxing our countries economy and the result will be... ya continued trash talk about american policy, no one will appreciate it if it works. We need to look at some of our own issues internally like outsourcing our citizens into a jobless state or reduced wages, the cost of college even tho it has become mandatory, homeless folks that can't get help, our prison system being overwhelmed, welfare still existing tho the depression is OVER yet it's ok to just breed for money and they even give earned income credit on taxes for it. Teenagers know that the government will pay for it if they get knocked up, the milk, the hospital bill, the vitamins, continued healthcare. They instigate these losers to keep breeding maybe hoping that if they are uneducated enough they can use them for troops just by wagging a flag and telling them "good ol boys love their nation". My brother got kicked out of the navy because he was so lazy, wouldn't get up for his watch etc. His commander even sent my mother a letter asking him to straighten up, she could only reply, I'm his mother but he's an adult - he won't listen to me. He went in because of the lies they told him about education expenses paid. He quit smoking to go in healthy. Then when he got to Japan they were so bored, he started smoking again. Sure, they will pay for you to go to their study programs but you don't get to chose your training. He wanted to go for engineering, they put him into a warfare program on ship control because they said they put you in what you tests show you to be proficient at. Now I don't know how marketable that would be in the real world on a resume. I know what buttons to press to shoot missiles. Anyway, once they removed him, they wanted all the money back for the training and have started garnishing his wages for it.
No offense intended but if your post was intended to make the navy look bad, It really only succeeded in making your brother look bad. The navy needs to function is they just allowed everyone to pick a job don't you think everyone would pick engineer or doctor or something they could make a load of money with after discharge. They give you G.I. money after your discharge to train your self with real world skills, your brother was unable to make it to that point, and frankly as a tax payer and am glad he is being held financial accountable.
I also am sorry to inform you that the so called lies about post service education are not lies. I have three friends now and many in the past who have taken advantage of the G.I. bill.
I never claimed he was a saint. But there were untruths imparted to him. I recognize he wasn't good at the job and deserved to be let go but his unhappiness stemmed from their deception. As for paying back the money, that was small print in the contract people don't read - something to the effect of if you aren't here x years you owe us your training cost back. It would hurt less if he had got training that he could take into the real world is the point. He was told he could choose his area of study then was told a different story by a different dept. The fact that commander could not control him and was petitioning his MOTHER to control him from across the world shows some incompetency in his leadership. That's nice that your friends were treated fairly but all aren't. Once you are in, you don't get the choice of where they put you or what happens is the jist, they can tell you anything to get you to sign just like any job that makes promises they don't put in writing.
I don't understand either why welfare recipients aren't forced to pay back the money they used myself but that's offtopic eh
I just want to clear up a few things here.
The US Navy allows recruits to choose from any job field they qualify when they join the Navy. They must take the ASVAB test in order to see what they qualify for though. If you scores are not high enough then they will not allow you to join certain job fields. Just like if you weren't very physically fit they wouldn't let you try out to be a SEAL.
I joined the US Navy in May of 2002. I scored a 99 on my ASVAB and was able to choose from any open job field. The Navy really really wanted me to be a Nuclear Electronics Technician and even had the Commanding Officer for the South Florida call me and try and talk me into it. I chose to be a regular Electronics Technician because I didn't want to serve in the bottom of a ship or submarine. After 2 years of serving as an Electronics Technician which included a full year of schooling (almost enough to get a Bachelor's in Electrical Engineering) I decided I did not like being an ET. The Navy allowed me to reclassify as a Religious Program Specialist. I have been a Religious Program Specialist for 2 more years and am not extremely happy as a RP either so I might cross rate and become a Hospital Corpsman.
The point of my little story is as long as you are a good sailor (meaning you show up to work and not get into trouble) the Navy will go out of their way to make you happy. They invest a lot of money into you and want to keep all of the good sailors they can.
The problem with your brother was he wasn't a good Sailor. The Navy doesn't force you into a job unless you mess up. Then they will choose a job based on the "Needs of the Navy" but that is only if you have already failed out of another job field.
Lastly the fact that your brother's commander tried to talk to your mom about the situation shows more how they care. Do you know how many people at my command get kicked out of the Navy? At least 2-5 people per week are discharged out of the Navy. The CO doesn't give them second chances and you want to know why? My command here in Pensacola provides training for Air Crew, Rescue Swimmers (kind of like the movie with Ashton Kutcher and Kevin Costner except for the Navy and not the Coast Guard), and Officer Pilots and Navigators. The number one thing that people get kicked out for is underage drinking, drinking and driving, or alcohol related incidents (i.e. fighting while drunk, sexual assault while drunk, etc) but of those the biggest is underage drinking. People who flunk out of the rescue swimmer school because they can't handle the school, or because they are medically found unfit for the program are reclassified based on their choice, what is open, and their ASVAB score.
So whatever your brother told you was most likely a bunch of lies, if he honestly said that the Navy forced him into a job field just because.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
To echo some of what Gnome said: no one really knows what they're getting into when they join up. Some people *think* they know, and, to be honest, some people do indeed have a pretty good idea. But, no matter if you are a military brat, a spouse, or someone who went to some sort of military prep school, nothing can prepare you for being in the real military. Furthermore, no one who has been in the military can describe perfectly what it is like, we can only approximate it. The government's enlistment efforts are almost wholely aimed at teens. Not because teens are healthier or because they're smarter, but because they're ignorant, and very few of them realize it. They are prepared to absorb as God's Honest Truth what they're told. Their supposed cynicism is a mile wide but an inch deep, and recruiters know well how to exploit it, how to play up to their self-image as young macho studs. If anything, I think the age for enlistment (and voting) should be raised to 21, but that's an argument for a different place. Bottom line: you DO NOT really know what you're getting into when you sign up. Some people just *think* they do, and recruiters do all they can to reinforce that belief.
You have no idea at all.
The main reason that the Military recruitment aims at teens for the enlisted ranks is for health, fitness, and ease of assimilation. Once you get older it is a lot harder to change your ways. Plus you have a pretty significant fitness decrease as you age.
I see it all day at work. The young (18-19) who join up to be rescue swimmers do not have a lot of trouble with the fitness aspect of the training but the fleet returnees (that is older Navy guys who get orders to come back to the training) are a lot less capable. Most of those older guys are only going through the "Dry Side" of the Aircrew training. Which basically teaches them how to work in an aircraft or helicopter and what to do if it goes down.
The same issues you see with a lot of people who join the military as teenagers are the same issues that are seen by the college graduates who are 23-28 years old generally. I dealt with College graduates attempting to become officers for a year and a half because I worked with Officer Training Command Pensacola. The same number of students with poor attitudes and wrong ideas about what Military life is like joined to become officers as the ones who join to become enlisted.
It is not due to some sinister plot by the US Government. If that was the case then we would have compulsory military duty like numerous other governments around the world have.
In fact the Military (and especially the Navy) wants people who not only want to be in the military but are proud of their service.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
[So whatever your brother told you was most likely a bunch of lies, if he honestly said that the Navy forced him into a job field just because. ]
You need to watch your words. You shouldnt call my brother whom you don't know a liar. Flame on. How about you stay on the subject instead of trying to convince me the navy is infallible and to believe my own family would lie to me but YOU the person that has not known me for 30+ years wouldn't. No matter what YOUR experience was or your FRIENDS, you were not there and you do not know the story, you are making one up in YOUR mind about YOUR encounter and superimposing it on his situation. Apologize or we have no reason to speak.
Why don't you clue me in then, lifer. I was in from 88-94. But golly, I guess I don't know jack.
So I guess by the time that someone is 24, they have to stop swimming because they're too old? No? I guess if you're 24 and going to college you should just drop out because now you're too stupid to learn, right? Please.
As far as why we don't have compulsory military duty: I would say it is mainly due to morale issues as much as anything. Recruiting efforts are aimed at convincing those who *already* have some vague impulse to join up to do so. If you made everyone join, then you wouldn't just get those who had been suckered into thinking that they were doing some noble service, but everyone including those who didn't bite and who would thus be pretty upset at being forced into the military.
'You have no idea at all.' Why don't you clue me in then, lifer. I was in from 88-94. But golly, I guess I don't know jack. So I guess by the time that someone is 24, they have to stop swimming because they're too old? No? I guess if you're 24 and going to college you should just drop out because now you're too stupid to learn, right? Please. As far as why we don't have compulsory military duty: I would say it is mainly due to morale issues as much as anything. Recruiting efforts are aimed at convincing those who *already* have some vague impulse to join up to do so. If you made everyone join, then you wouldn't just get those who had been suckered into thinking that they were doing some noble service, but everyone including those who didn't bite and who would thus be pretty upset at being forced into the military.
The same problems that you say they have with teenagers join are the same problem that college graduates have as well. It isn't an age related thing, it might be a maturity thing, it might be the way you were raised but changing the age that people join will make no difference.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
College is not the military. It isnt even close. The results of age and maturity (or the lack thereof) play out differently in college than in the military. For example, if you go to college and decide you don't like it, you can change your major or drop out. Neither of these things are hard to do. If you don't like what you do in the military, you can change your rating/MOS (which varies from not-very-easy to nearly-impossible) or... well, you can't drop out, not legally anyway.
Furthermore, what each institution is trying to instill in young people is (ideally) different. College is about trying to get you to be able to make informed decisions on many subjects (that's what a liberal education means) as well as learn something well enough to launch a career (your major). The military is about indoctrinization. They don't want you to make your own decisions; they want you to obey, and often obey without question. This last is partly do to the fact that sometimes decisions are life and death, whereas that is almost never the case in a college environment.
Age and maturity are related. They are not inseperable, that is true, but often age brings wisdom (maturity), if only due to having more life experience. This is a commonly accepted belief.
I stand behind what I said earlier: that the government aims their recruiting efforts at the young not due to health or intellectual ability, but due to their inexperience and over-confidence, so that their indoctrination processes will have a much better chance of being absorbed without much introspection or even awareness of what is being done. Usually, it is only later on, if at all, that many of these people come to realize what has been done to them, and for some of those people, that realization results in great personal suffering and disillusionment.
College is not the military. It isnt even close. The results of age and maturity (or the lack thereof) play out differently in college than in the military. For example, if you go to college and decide you don't like it, you can change your major or drop out. Neither of these things are hard to do. If you don't like what you do in the military, you can change your rating/MOS (which varies from not-very-easy to nearly-impossible) or... well, you can't drop out, not legally anyway. Furthermore, what each institution is trying to instill in young people is (ideally) different. College is about trying to get you to be able to make informed decisions on many subjects (that's what a liberal education means) as well as learn something well enough to launch a career (your major). The military is about indoctrinization. They don't want you to make your own decisions; they want you to obey, and often obey without question. This last is partly do to the fact that sometimes decisions are life and death, whereas that is almost never the case in a college environment. Age and maturity are related. They are not inseperable, that is true, but often age brings wisdom (maturity), if only due to having more life experience. This is a commonly accepted belief. I stand behind what I said earlier: that the government aims their recruiting efforts at the young not due to health or intellectual ability, but due to their inexperience and over-confidence, so that their indoctrination processes will have a much better chance of being absorbed without much introspection or even awareness of what is being done. Usually, it is only later on, if at all, that many of these people come to realize what has been done to them, and for some of those people, that realization results in great personal suffering and disillusionment.
That is fine. You are to form any opinion you want. I think you are wrong though. Like I said earlier the same inexperience and immaturity that plagues some young enlisted also plagues young officers. Yet these officers have had the life experience of attending years of college and living pretty much on their own.
I stand by my opinion that the Military recruits based on ability and not some attempt to use inexperienced people. In fact most of the Navy recruiters I have met like to recruit older people because they know what they want to do and are more serious about it. They are easier to deal with. The fact that you have a lot of young people joining as enlisted in the military is not due to some nefarious plot by the government but has more to do with the fact that if you do not start your military career at a young age you are unlikely to ever start a military career. Since you have already started some other career path.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
This Circello is a total loser. I wont even read his writings. The US would'nt be free today if soldiers felt like him.
Everything he said is lie and propaganda. Times have changed and drastic measures have to be implemented. They should throw his butt in jail for a very long time.
Originally posted by DeaconX Originally posted by Wardden Everyone who reads this post should take the time to look at the rest of DeaconX's posts, seems like he has an insesant need to post anti-american crap on this websites off topic forums. IF this guy was ever a member of the armed forces I just thank god that most men and women who sign up are made of better stuff than he is. The very organization he rips defends his right to express himself freely the way he is.
I am not at all anti-american... the fact that you see it that way saddens me. But I'm also not a blindly patriotic lemming brainwashed to cheer on a government regime that is quite literally RAPING the American ideology the nation was built upon. THAT is not patriotic... that's blind loyalty. I'm not burning American flags, I'm not protesting to destroy America... if you're not aware of what's going on, sorry for you. Get with it. Start thinking critically and just basically, start paying attention.
I LOVE what America CAN stand for. And it's by far not the only nation with problems hell there are nations in much worse shape. America has great potential but it IS the superpower of the world and because I do care about the world I live in, I care about what happens to America. So is it ProAmerican to let things slip including freedoms? Guess I got the constitution all wrong.
So is Bush Smedley and the current white house administration the NGE that is destroying america?
Bring us back Pre Cu America! LOL! damn, the politicians aren't listening again... just like SOE devs lol
Ok, I know I probably shouldn't have said it, but since you mentioned the phrase "America has potential" there's only one other place I hear that alot too lol
He served 6 years. You only need to serve 1 in the Army. So he really hasn't committed any crimes even by Army Standards. Also he left before the 6 months were added to the Armies required serve time. Still thats why I didn't join the army. You don't have a choice in who you attack, where your deployed, and the orders your given.
First of all, as soon as you raise your hand and take the oath, your life is the military. As long as he is not honorably discharged, the Military can prosecute to the max.
Once you take the oath, you ARE the property of the United States Goverment, period. You have no say on where to go and what to do and who tio kill. You do what they say.
When you join, you do get an education. You are trained in a field and trained in respect for authority.
They feed you, take care of your medical needs, give you housing and pay for your college when you get out.
I was in during Vietnam. I spent 6 years active duty. If I was told to give my life to save 100's more, I would of in an instant. Thats my job. This is my country and it is my duty to do what I am told, no matter what it is.
I hate cry babies that cant take the heat, but want all the bennies. It makes me sick to see all our fallen soldiers die for wimps that speak against our great country.
College is not the military. It isnt even close. The results of age and maturity (or the lack thereof) play out differently in college than in the military. For example, if you go to college and decide you don't like it, you can change your major or drop out. Neither of these things are hard to do. If you don't like what you do in the military, you can change your rating/MOS (which varies from not-very-easy to nearly-impossible) or... well, you can't drop out, not legally anyway. Furthermore, what each institution is trying to instill in young people is (ideally) different. College is about trying to get you to be able to make informed decisions on many subjects (that's what a liberal education means) as well as learn something well enough to launch a career (your major). The military is about indoctrinization. They don't want you to make your own decisions; they want you to obey, and often obey without question. This last is partly do to the fact that sometimes decisions are life and death, whereas that is almost never the case in a college environment. Age and maturity are related. They are not inseperable, that is true, but often age brings wisdom (maturity), if only due to having more life experience. This is a commonly accepted belief. I stand behind what I said earlier: that the government aims their recruiting efforts at the young not due to health or intellectual ability, but due to their inexperience and over-confidence, so that their indoctrination processes will have a much better chance of being absorbed without much introspection or even awareness of what is being done. Usually, it is only later on, if at all, that many of these people come to realize what has been done to them, and for some of those people, that realization results in great personal suffering and disillusionment.
That is fine. You are to form any opinion you want. I think you are wrong though. Like I said earlier the same inexperience and immaturity that plagues some young enlisted also plagues young officers. Yet these officers have had the life experience of attending years of college and living pretty much on their own.
I stand by my opinion that the Military recruits based on ability and not some attempt to use inexperienced people. In fact most of the Navy recruiters I have met like to recruit older people because they know what they want to do and are more serious about it. They are easier to deal with. The fact that you have a lot of young people joining as enlisted in the military is not due to some nefarious plot by the government but has more to do with the fact that if you do not start your military career at a young age you are unlikely to ever start a military career. Since you have already started some other career path.
I agree with Cabe. Once you graduate from college and get a job, a serious girlfriend or wife and maybe even have a kid, there is little chance you're going to join the military. How many people do you know drop everything and switch to a totally different career like that? Especially to a career like the military? I'm sure the army would rather recruit 22-26 year olds instead of 18-22 year olds simply because of the maturity, but they can't.
When you're 18 and a high school graduate you're looking for a career or at least a job, you're easier to train because you aren't set in your ways, and you're far less likely to have family obligations that would preclude you from joining in the first place.
I don't think some of you get the point. The soldier took an oath and broke it.When you join the military, you obey your commanding officers no questions asked. That is what boot camp is all about. You have to obey no matter what you are ordered to do no matter how absurd the order. If you don't then there will be chaos and not a well oiled fighting unit. It doesn't matter what you feel. After your service you can voice your opinion. Not only did this soldier go AWOL (and in my opinion deserted), he spoke out against the governmnent while under duty not to. To me that is treason. If I were the judge I'd be really harsh in his penalty). That is of course if he comes back to the states. If he doesn't I would revoke his citizenship. What the soldier really needs to do is turn himself in and take the punishment. Maybe then his sentence will be more lenient.
That is not true and furthermore it reduces a soldier to the level of a mindless tool. There are certain rules and regulations that make it possible for an enlisted serviceman or a ranking officer to file charges against a CO if he/she has acted in a way that is in conflict with the UCMJ, Military Code or other legislation.
This line of reasoning thinking a soldier should perform any duty whatever its nature is flawed and also unethical and illegal. A soldier has the right to refuse to participate in mass murder of POWs or civilian population for example. Your thoughts of how a soldier should blindly follow any order makes him no better than an SS nazi soldier performing "ethnic cleansing" behind enemy lines.
In fact, in the Nurenberg trials following WW II statements such as "I was only following orders" were not considered a valid legal argument by the defense lawyers of high ranking nazi soldiers.
He served 6 years. You only need to serve 1 in the Army. So he really hasn't committed any crimes even by Army Standards. Also he left before the 6 months were added to the Armies required serve time. Still thats why I didn't join the army. You don't have a choice in who you attack, where your deployed, and the orders your given.
First of all, as soon as you raise your hand and take the oath, your life is the military. As long as he is not honorably discharged, the Military can prosecute to the max.
Once you take the oath, you ARE the property of the United States Goverment, period. You have no say on where to go and what to do and who tio kill. You do what they say.
When you join, you do get an education. You are trained in a field and trained in respect for authority.
They feed you, take care of your medical needs, give you housing and pay for your college when you get out.
I was in during Vietnam. I spent 6 years active duty. If I was told to give my life to save 100's more, I would of in an instant. Thats my job. This is my country and it is my duty to do what I am told, no matter what it is.
I hate cry babies that cant take the heat, but want all the bennies. It makes me sick to see all our fallen soldiers die for wimps that speak against our great country.
I understand that the military does have benefits, and that you must support them and do your duty to get them
but that is beside the point
the soldier was saying that he would rather face punishment that support a brutal regime. It may not seem all to bad while we (as i am also doing this) sit here is the sugarcoated US, but take a look at what the current Administration is doing. I had absolutely no problem that we invaded afganistan and tried to root out the orginization which attacked us, but now we are stuck in Iraq, where the civilian death count (thats INNOCENT people just like you and me) is estimated to be over ONE MILLION. The UN shot down the idea of invading iraq, yet this administration decided that they had more authority than the rest of the world and rode a stream of "patriotism" in anyways. The "goal" has been changed multiple times, after people start to realize that the current "goal" is ridiculous. Another thing, people often say we are fighting the terrorists, well....what do you think would encourage more people to become terrorists? having a superpower nation completely obliterating your towns, people, and life?
Originally posted by b0rderline99 Originally posted by hazmats
Originally posted by b0rderline99
Originally posted by hazmats
where the civilian death count (thats INNOCENT people just like you and me) is estimated to be over ONE MILLION.
according to Rosie O'Donnel Maybe... IraqBodyCount says under 100,000.
o 100,000 thats nothing.....
Did I say it was nothing? well i mis-interpreted your tone then still, 100,000- 1 million people would still be alive had this never occured
I still support the war in terms of I think leaving would be much worse than staying at this point. Surge is working well in security terms. This is the Iraqi's last shot. If they blow it, then screw'em.
The Iran-Iraq War in which approximately 5,000 Iranians were killed with chemical weapons between 1983-1988, plus the several thousand Iranian prisoners of war killed by Hussein. (In the "legal" part of the war between these two powerful Muslim nations, 200,000 Iraqis died and over 300,000 Iranians died. They are not counted in Scheffer's report on war crimes.)
The dropping of chemical weapons on the Kurdish city of Halaja in Iraq in March of 1988, that killed over 5,000 civilians. The U.S. government has satellite photos of the carnage. The Kurds have since reported that five to seven thousand people of 80,000 inhabitants died immediately and a further 20,000 to 30,000 were injured, many severely. Initial studies indicate approximately 52% of current inhabitants were exposed at the time of the chemical warhead attack on Halaja.
The Anfal campaigns, also against the Kurds, when Chemical Ali, Hussein's cousin, was given the orders to slaughter the Kurds. Somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 Kurds were killed. Scheffer called it genocide.
The invasion and occupation of Kuwait on August 2, 1990 in which Saddam Hussein's forces killed more than 1000 Kuwaiti nationals, and an uncounted number from other nations while launching the environmental crime "such as the destruction of oil wells in Kuwait's oil fields. War crimes also were committed against other nationals in an "effort to coerce their governments into pro-Iraqi policies."
In 1991, when the United Nations failed to approve the actual removal of Saddam Hussein from power, from 30,000 to 60,000 Iraqi civilians, mostly Kurds and Shiites were killed.
In the early 1990s, Saddam Hussein drained the southern marshes, which deprived over 100,000 people of their livelihood and their ability to live on land their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years.
The ethnic cleansing of Persians and other non-Arabs from Iraq,
The killing, torturing and raping of political opponents and their wives and daughters and the disappearance of 300,000 people, the remains of many of whom have been found in mass graves following Iraq's liberation in 2003.
And, according to a booklet written by the U.S. Agency for International Development approximately 400,000 Iraqi civilians were seized by Saddam Hussein's various "security" organizations and simply never heard from again
Iraq, a country approximately the size of California, but with only 2/3rd its population, suffered more than a million violent deaths under Saddam Hussein's regime. That would average out at about 50,000 deaths a year in a population of 25 million before the Americans got involved. In the two years since the Americans have been fighting in Iraq, 13,650 Iraqis, have been killed, many of them by terrorist attacks by their own countrymen. Others were by military action. That averages out at 6, 825 deaths per year in a population of 25 million.
So, the mostly American liberation of Iraq dropped the rate of violent deaths from 50,000 a year under Saddam Hussein to 6,825 a year with the Americans in Baghdad.
The war has reduced the amount of fatalities prior to American involvement. It's all relative.
The Iran-Iraq War in which approximately 5,000 Iranians were killed with chemical weapons between 1983-1988, plus the several thousand Iranian prisoners of war killed by Hussein. (In the "legal" part of the war between these two powerful Muslim nations, 200,000 Iraqis died and over 300,000 Iranians died. They are not counted in Scheffer's report on war crimes.) The dropping of chemical weapons on the Kurdish city of Halaja in Iraq in March of 1988, that killed over 5,000 civilians. The U.S. government has satellite photos of the carnage. The Kurds have since reported that five to seven thousand people of 80,000 inhabitants died immediately and a further 20,000 to 30,000 were injured, many severely. Initial studies indicate approximately 52% of current inhabitants were exposed at the time of the chemical warhead attack on Halaja. The Anfal campaigns, also against the Kurds, when Chemical Ali, Hussein's cousin, was given the orders to slaughter the Kurds. Somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 Kurds were killed. Scheffer called it genocide. The invasion and occupation of Kuwait on August 2, 1990 in which Saddam Hussein's forces killed more than 1000 Kuwaiti nationals, and an uncounted number from other nations while launching the environmental crime "such as the destruction of oil wells in Kuwait's oil fields. War crimes also were committed against other nationals in an "effort to coerce their governments into pro-Iraqi policies." In 1991, when the United Nations failed to approve the actual removal of Saddam Hussein from power, from 30,000 to 60,000 Iraqi civilians, mostly Kurds and Shiites were killed. In the early 1990s, Saddam Hussein drained the southern marshes, which deprived over 100,000 people of their livelihood and their ability to live on land their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years. The ethnic cleansing of Persians and other non-Arabs from Iraq, The killing, torturing and raping of political opponents and their wives and daughters and the disappearance of 300,000 people, the remains of many of whom have been found in mass graves following Iraq's liberation in 2003. And, according to a booklet written by the U.S. Agency for International Development approximately 400,000 Iraqi civilians were seized by Saddam Hussein's various "security" organizations and simply never heard from again
Iraq, a country approximately the size of California, but with only 2/3rd its population, suffered more than a million violent deaths under Saddam Hussein's regime. That would average out at about 50,000 deaths a year in a population of 25 million before the Americans got involved. In the two years since the Americans have been fighting in Iraq, 13,650 Iraqis, have been killed, many of them by terrorist attacks by their own countrymen. Others were by military action. That averages out at 6, 825 deaths per year in a population of 25 million.
So, the mostly American liberation of Iraq dropped the rate of violent deaths from 50,000 a year under Saddam Hussein to 6,825 a year with the Americans in Baghdad. The war has reduced the amount of fatalities prior to American involvement. It's all relative.
ok so now chaos, power struggles, and the Bush administration cause the deaths
Comments
No offense intended but if your post was intended to make the navy look bad, It really only succeeded in making your brother look bad. The navy needs to function is they just allowed everyone to pick a job don't you think everyone would pick engineer or doctor or something they could make a load of money with after discharge. They give you G.I. money after your discharge to train your self with real world skills, your brother was unable to make it to that point, and frankly as a tax payer and am glad he is being held financial accountable.
I also am sorry to inform you that the so called lies about post service education are not lies. I have three friends now and many in the past who have taken advantage of the G.I. bill.
I never claimed he was a saint. But there were untruths imparted to him. I recognize he wasn't good at the job and deserved to be let go but his unhappiness stemmed from their deception. As for paying back the money, that was small print in the contract people don't read - something to the effect of if you aren't here x years you owe us your training cost back. It would hurt less if he had got training that he could take into the real world is the point. He was told he could choose his area of study then was told a different story by a different dept. The fact that commander could not control him and was petitioning his MOTHER to control him from across the world shows some incompetency in his leadership. That's nice that your friends were treated fairly but all aren't. Once you are in, you don't get the choice of where they put you or what happens is the jist, they can tell you anything to get you to sign just like any job that makes promises they don't put in writing.
I don't understand either why welfare recipients aren't forced to pay back the money they used myself but that's offtopic eh
I just want to clear up a few things here.The US Navy allows recruits to choose from any job field they qualify when they join the Navy. They must take the ASVAB test in order to see what they qualify for though. If you scores are not high enough then they will not allow you to join certain job fields. Just like if you weren't very physically fit they wouldn't let you try out to be a SEAL.
I joined the US Navy in May of 2002. I scored a 99 on my ASVAB and was able to choose from any open job field. The Navy really really wanted me to be a Nuclear Electronics Technician and even had the Commanding Officer for the South Florida call me and try and talk me into it. I chose to be a regular Electronics Technician because I didn't want to serve in the bottom of a ship or submarine. After 2 years of serving as an Electronics Technician which included a full year of schooling (almost enough to get a Bachelor's in Electrical Engineering) I decided I did not like being an ET. The Navy allowed me to reclassify as a Religious Program Specialist. I have been a Religious Program Specialist for 2 more years and am not extremely happy as a RP either so I might cross rate and become a Hospital Corpsman.
The point of my little story is as long as you are a good sailor (meaning you show up to work and not get into trouble) the Navy will go out of their way to make you happy. They invest a lot of money into you and want to keep all of the good sailors they can.
The problem with your brother was he wasn't a good Sailor. The Navy doesn't force you into a job unless you mess up. Then they will choose a job based on the "Needs of the Navy" but that is only if you have already failed out of another job field.
Lastly the fact that your brother's commander tried to talk to your mom about the situation shows more how they care. Do you know how many people at my command get kicked out of the Navy? At least 2-5 people per week are discharged out of the Navy. The CO doesn't give them second chances and you want to know why? My command here in Pensacola provides training for Air Crew, Rescue Swimmers (kind of like the movie with Ashton Kutcher and Kevin Costner except for the Navy and not the Coast Guard), and Officer Pilots and Navigators. The number one thing that people get kicked out for is underage drinking, drinking and driving, or alcohol related incidents (i.e. fighting while drunk, sexual assault while drunk, etc) but of those the biggest is underage drinking. People who flunk out of the rescue swimmer school because they can't handle the school, or because they are medically found unfit for the program are reclassified based on their choice, what is open, and their ASVAB score.
So whatever your brother told you was most likely a bunch of lies, if he honestly said that the Navy forced him into a job field just because.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
The main reason that the Military recruitment aims at teens for the enlisted ranks is for health, fitness, and ease of assimilation. Once you get older it is a lot harder to change your ways. Plus you have a pretty significant fitness decrease as you age.
I see it all day at work. The young (18-19) who join up to be rescue swimmers do not have a lot of trouble with the fitness aspect of the training but the fleet returnees (that is older Navy guys who get orders to come back to the training) are a lot less capable. Most of those older guys are only going through the "Dry Side" of the Aircrew training. Which basically teaches them how to work in an aircraft or helicopter and what to do if it goes down.
The same issues you see with a lot of people who join the military as teenagers are the same issues that are seen by the college graduates who are 23-28 years old generally. I dealt with College graduates attempting to become officers for a year and a half because I worked with Officer Training Command Pensacola. The same number of students with poor attitudes and wrong ideas about what Military life is like joined to become officers as the ones who join to become enlisted.
It is not due to some sinister plot by the US Government. If that was the case then we would have compulsory military duty like numerous other governments around the world have.
In fact the Military (and especially the Navy) wants people who not only want to be in the military but are proud of their service.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
[So whatever your brother told you was most likely a bunch of lies, if he honestly said that the Navy forced him into a job field just because. ]
You need to watch your words. You shouldnt call my brother whom you don't know a liar. Flame on. How about you stay on the subject instead of trying to convince me the navy is infallible and to believe my own family would lie to me but YOU the person that has not known me for 30+ years wouldn't. No matter what YOUR experience was or your FRIENDS, you were not there and you do not know the story, you are making one up in YOUR mind about YOUR encounter and superimposing it on his situation. Apologize or we have no reason to speak.
'You have no idea at all.'
Why don't you clue me in then, lifer. I was in from 88-94. But golly, I guess I don't know jack.
So I guess by the time that someone is 24, they have to stop swimming because they're too old? No? I guess if you're 24 and going to college you should just drop out because now you're too stupid to learn, right? Please.
As far as why we don't have compulsory military duty: I would say it is mainly due to morale issues as much as anything. Recruiting efforts are aimed at convincing those who *already* have some vague impulse to join up to do so. If you made everyone join, then you wouldn't just get those who had been suckered into thinking that they were doing some noble service, but everyone including those who didn't bite and who would thus be pretty upset at being forced into the military.
Low Morale costs lives and creates crushing defeats.
The same problems that you say they have with teenagers join are the same problem that college graduates have as well. It isn't an age related thing, it might be a maturity thing, it might be the way you were raised but changing the age that people join will make no difference.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
College is not the military. It isnt even close. The results of age and maturity (or the lack thereof) play out differently in college than in the military. For example, if you go to college and decide you don't like it, you can change your major or drop out. Neither of these things are hard to do. If you don't like what you do in the military, you can change your rating/MOS (which varies from not-very-easy to nearly-impossible) or... well, you can't drop out, not legally anyway.
Furthermore, what each institution is trying to instill in young people is (ideally) different. College is about trying to get you to be able to make informed decisions on many subjects (that's what a liberal education means) as well as learn something well enough to launch a career (your major). The military is about indoctrinization. They don't want you to make your own decisions; they want you to obey, and often obey without question. This last is partly do to the fact that sometimes decisions are life and death, whereas that is almost never the case in a college environment.
Age and maturity are related. They are not inseperable, that is true, but often age brings wisdom (maturity), if only due to having more life experience. This is a commonly accepted belief.
I stand behind what I said earlier: that the government aims their recruiting efforts at the young not due to health or intellectual ability, but due to their inexperience and over-confidence, so that their indoctrination processes will have a much better chance of being absorbed without much introspection or even awareness of what is being done. Usually, it is only later on, if at all, that many of these people come to realize what has been done to them, and for some of those people, that realization results in great personal suffering and disillusionment.
I stand by my opinion that the Military recruits based on ability and not some attempt to use inexperienced people. In fact most of the Navy recruiters I have met like to recruit older people because they know what they want to do and are more serious about it. They are easier to deal with. The fact that you have a lot of young people joining as enlisted in the military is not due to some nefarious plot by the government but has more to do with the fact that if you do not start your military career at a young age you are unlikely to ever start a military career. Since you have already started some other career path.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
This Circello is a total loser. I wont even read his writings. The US would'nt be free today if soldiers felt like him.
Everything he said is lie and propaganda. Times have changed and drastic measures have to be implemented. They should throw his butt in jail for a very long time.
I am not at all anti-american... the fact that you see it that way saddens me. But I'm also not a blindly patriotic lemming brainwashed to cheer on a government regime that is quite literally RAPING the American ideology the nation was built upon.
THAT is not patriotic... that's blind loyalty.
I'm not burning American flags, I'm not protesting to destroy America... if you're not aware of what's going on, sorry for you. Get with it. Start thinking critically and just basically, start paying attention.
I LOVE what America CAN stand for. And it's by far not the only nation with problems hell there are nations in much worse shape. America has great potential but it IS the superpower of the world and because I do care about the world I live in, I care about what happens to America.
So is it ProAmerican to let things slip including freedoms? Guess I got the constitution all wrong.
So is Bush Smedley and the current white house administration the NGE that is destroying america?
Bring us back Pre Cu America! LOL! damn, the politicians aren't listening again... just like SOE devs lol
Ok, I know I probably shouldn't have said it, but since you mentioned the phrase "America has potential" there's only one other place I hear that alot too lol
Once you take the oath, you ARE the property of the United States Goverment, period. You have no say on where to go and what to do and who tio kill. You do what they say.
When you join, you do get an education. You are trained in a field and trained in respect for authority.
They feed you, take care of your medical needs, give you housing and pay for your college when you get out.
I was in during Vietnam. I spent 6 years active duty. If I was told to give my life to save 100's more, I would of in an instant. Thats my job. This is my country and it is my duty to do what I am told, no matter what it is.
I hate cry babies that cant take the heat, but want all the bennies. It makes me sick to see all our fallen soldiers die for wimps that speak against our great country.
G W bush and Dick Cheney Vietnam war.
Jawohl
If you are not being responded to directly, you are probably on my ignore list.
I stand by my opinion that the Military recruits based on ability and not some attempt to use inexperienced people. In fact most of the Navy recruiters I have met like to recruit older people because they know what they want to do and are more serious about it. They are easier to deal with. The fact that you have a lot of young people joining as enlisted in the military is not due to some nefarious plot by the government but has more to do with the fact that if you do not start your military career at a young age you are unlikely to ever start a military career. Since you have already started some other career path.
I agree with Cabe. Once you graduate from college and get a job, a serious girlfriend or wife and maybe even have a kid, there is little chance you're going to join the military. How many people do you know drop everything and switch to a totally different career like that? Especially to a career like the military? I'm sure the army would rather recruit 22-26 year olds instead of 18-22 year olds simply because of the maturity, but they can't.When you're 18 and a high school graduate you're looking for a career or at least a job, you're easier to train because you aren't set in your ways, and you're far less likely to have family obligations that would preclude you from joining in the first place.
I
Awol at a time of war is such a cowardly act.
This line of reasoning thinking a soldier should perform any duty whatever its nature is flawed and also unethical and illegal. A soldier has the right to refuse to participate in mass murder of POWs or civilian population for example. Your thoughts of how a soldier should blindly follow any order makes him no better than an SS nazi soldier performing "ethnic cleansing" behind enemy lines.
In fact, in the Nurenberg trials following WW II statements such as "I was only following orders" were not considered a valid legal argument by the defense lawyers of high ranking nazi soldiers.
Once you take the oath, you ARE the property of the United States Goverment, period. You have no say on where to go and what to do and who tio kill. You do what they say.
When you join, you do get an education. You are trained in a field and trained in respect for authority.
They feed you, take care of your medical needs, give you housing and pay for your college when you get out.
I was in during Vietnam. I spent 6 years active duty. If I was told to give my life to save 100's more, I would of in an instant. Thats my job. This is my country and it is my duty to do what I am told, no matter what it is.
I hate cry babies that cant take the heat, but want all the bennies. It makes me sick to see all our fallen soldiers die for wimps that speak against our great country.
I understand that the military does have benefits, and that you must support them and do your duty to get thembut that is beside the point
the soldier was saying that he would rather face punishment that support a brutal regime. It may not seem all to bad while we (as i am also doing this) sit here is the sugarcoated US, but take a look at what the current Administration is doing. I had absolutely no problem that we invaded afganistan and tried to root out the orginization which attacked us, but now we are stuck in Iraq, where the civilian death count (thats INNOCENT people just like you and me) is estimated to be over ONE MILLION. The UN shot down the idea of invading iraq, yet this administration decided that they had more authority than the rest of the world and rode a stream of "patriotism" in anyways. The "goal" has been changed multiple times, after people start to realize that the current "goal" is ridiculous. Another thing, people often say we are fighting the terrorists, well....what do you think would encourage more people to become terrorists? having a superpower nation completely obliterating your towns, people, and life?
according to Rosie O'Donnel Maybe... IraqBodyCount says under 100,000.
The Human Cost of Occupation
Edited by Margaret Griffis :: Contact
.casualties { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; width: 100%; } .casualties-title { text-align: center; font-size: 25px; } .casualties-total-header { text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; } .casualties-total-label { text-align: left; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-total-value { text-align: center; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-since-label { text-align: left; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-since-value { text-align: center; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-combat-wounded {text-align: left; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-combat-label { text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-combat-value { text-align: center; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; }
That's not including the loss of Coalition Forces. Is it worth it? Do you feel more "secure"?
according to Rosie O'Donnel Maybe... IraqBodyCount says under 100,000.
o 100,000 thats nothing.....
according to Rosie O'Donnel Maybe... IraqBodyCount says under 100,000.
o 100,000 thats nothing.....
Did I say it was nothing?
according to Rosie O'Donnel Maybe... IraqBodyCount says under 100,000.
o 100,000 thats nothing.....
Did I say it was nothing?
well i mis-interpreted your tone thenstill, 100,000- 1 million people would still be alive had this never occured
according to Rosie O'Donnel Maybe... IraqBodyCount says under 100,000.
o 100,000 thats nothing.....
Did I say it was nothing?
well i mis-interpreted your tone then
still, 100,000- 1 million people would still be alive had this never occured
I still support the war in terms of I think leaving would be much worse than staying at this point. Surge is working well in security terms. This is the Iraqi's last shot. If they blow it, then screw'em.
Iraq, a country approximately the size of California, but with only 2/3rd its population, suffered more than a million violent deaths under Saddam Hussein's regime. That would average out at about 50,000 deaths a year in a population of 25 million before the Americans got involved. In the two years since the Americans have been fighting in Iraq, 13,650 Iraqis, have been killed, many of them by terrorist attacks by their own countrymen. Others were by military action. That averages out at 6, 825 deaths per year in a population of 25 million.
So, the mostly American liberation of Iraq dropped the rate of violent deaths from 50,000 a year under Saddam Hussein to 6,825 a year with the Americans in Baghdad.
The war has reduced the amount of fatalities prior to American involvement. It's all relative.
ok so now chaos, power struggles, and the Bush administration cause the deaths