The Grind!

TotalPSA

So i been playing TR for a week or so and have been reading this forum alot due to a lack of offical forums.

I have to agree with what is becoming the majority, TR is a really good game. Once you get past the first couple of zones which should just be viewed as an intro to TR.

Now i have read lot about 'The GRIND" in MMO's and its place in this game. I played WoW for a long time and grinding make me want to curl up in ball and never play again. In TR the XP bonus you get for continual killing is such a fun idea, i do not know if this is used in other MMO's but to just walking into an enemy base and start capping Aliens and work up to the 250% xp mulitplier and then hold on to it is alot of fun in itself. I have held the 250% for about 35 mins so far then ran out of enemies cause i got a bit AOE happy but i had a right laugh. Does this have a long term appeal? I am not sure but certainly going back to a system with out it would be horrible from now on.

What do you think?

jermell18

I've played alot of NCsoft games, and i think they finally got alot of things right in this game. One thing would be you get an enormous amount of xp from completing quest. The 2nd thing which you spoke of would be the increase of percentage of XP you get if you continue to kill. That was a great idea, it actually makes people want to go out and grind a little just so they can see how long they can sustain the 250% xp thingy.

One thing about this game it gives you enough things to do and can keeps you busy.

StrontyDog

The big thing that makes me not feel like I'm grinding for XP is the combat system. Sometimes on my way to a quest and I get caught up in having fun killing stuff and I end up forgetting what I was supposed to be doing in the first place. When killing stuff is fun it just doesnt feel like grinding anymore. No one complains that you have to kill X number of monsters or whatever in an fps because well that's the whole point of the game, I get the same feeling when I play TR.

kaldier

This is definately the first game I have played in a long time where I have not felt like I was grinding at all. I can go out and just kill for hours and not feel like I was just grinding on thrax. The combat is very well done.

Rollotamasi

I am a firm believer that games do not have "grinds" its that players make games a grind.  Players find a goal and then do everything they can to reach that goal in the shortest amount of time and that makes it a grind. Example:  I am lvl 20, I want to be lvl 30 in a week, I can accomplish that if I kill XYZ amount of mobs.  All players tend to see is the "end game" and want to reach it as fast as possible so they do the same thing over and over and over.  The game didn't give them a grind, the game gave them a way to progress and they simply took it to a extreme by grinding mobs for 8 hours straight.  Don't believe me?  Look at role players.  Ever wonder why they generally don't complain about a "grind"?  Its because reaching max lvl in the shortest amount of time possible isn't their primary concern.

letum6030

I agree for the most part.  However, in games where there is nothing else to do but kill mobs and level, the only thing to do is explore and kill mobs.  The exploring part, in Lineage 2 for example, isn't a valid option when all of the cool places have high level mobs that kill you quickly.  I too enjoy the combat system of TR.  I just wish that my gf would get into it a little quicker.  She's never played any game other than Diablo 2 and WoW.  This is making it a little tough on her because of the vast difference in the combat.

maxnrosy

Originally posted by Rollotamasi


I am a firm believer that games do not have "grinds" its that players make games a grind.  Players find a goal and then do everything they can to reach that goal in the shortest amount of time and that makes it a grind. Example:  I am lvl 20, I want to be lvl 30 in a week, I can accomplish that if I kill XYZ amount of mobs.  All players tend to see is the "end game" and want to reach it as fast as possible so they do the same thing over and over and over.  The game didn't give them a grind, the game gave them a way to progress and they simply took it to a extreme by grinding mobs for 8 hours straight.  Don't believe me?  Look at role players.  Ever wonder why they generally don't complain about a "grind"?  Its because reaching max lvl in the shortest amount of time possible isn't their primary concern.

i beg to differ. before wow came out many games did force you (lvl wise) to find a camping spot where you would  fetch a mob and kill it and repeat untill you were the proper lvl to go to the next zone to repeat the process. Quests only gave item rewards and  there were no indicators who gave quests.  Such was the grind of FFXI when i started it when it came out. (dont know if it still the same) You had to grind repeatable quests in order to gain rank to get to the quests that might give you somthing you can use since most of the quest rewards where useless, save those that gave you rare spells.  Yes you could talk with every npc in sandoria and do their quests, however some required you to be at a certian lv in order to complete thus once again forcing you to go out there and mindlessly kill mobs in a "camping point "

 The crafting system was also a grind since you had to repetitively do the same and cheapest craft until you gained enough points to do the next cheapest craft. It was a huge money sink.

all this was unavoidable repetitive grind.

 

Then wow came out. all it did was reduce grind. which is why its so big now. quests kill the need to crush mobs at the same place all the time. there was NO need to camp an area of mobs since there where tons of quests. Of course the"hard core" players disliked this at first and bashed wow as it was "not an mmo" since lvl cap can be achived by solo play. Crafting was also reduced in grind yet the same priciple applied. grind the cheapest craft to lvl to the next cheapest craft.

 However wow increased grind in some areas like rep with factions. The main factions were easy to achieve since you gained rep via the quests as you lvled, but the rest of the factions required you to slaughter tons of mobs that gave rep to that faction and quests for those factions were few and repeatable. End game was also a grind as you had to repeat it so much in order to get your set of armor and so forth.

 

Now for Tabula rasa, I can say grind is totally optional. Only if you want to and like everyone else said, its actually fun as hell. I just hit the 30's and i still have NOT been forced to go out on my own accord and staughter mobs to get  the required lvl to go to the next area. The ToO mission , which actually sound like a huge grind go hand to hand with regular questing. All quests lead to the minibosses in each area, by the time your about done with all the quests in a zone you probably have met all the kill x amount since they are everywhere for all the quests you do.

There is no rep to grind for now (dont know if such thing will be added in the future). So i can safely say that tabula rasa is grind free.

Rollotamasi

Originally posted by maxnrosy


 
Originally posted by Rollotamasi


I am a firm believer that games do not have "grinds" its that players make games a grind.  Players find a goal and then do everything they can to reach that goal in the shortest amount of time and that makes it a grind. Example:  I am lvl 20, I want to be lvl 30 in a week, I can accomplish that if I kill XYZ amount of mobs.  All players tend to see is the "end game" and want to reach it as fast as possible so they do the same thing over and over and over.  The game didn't give them a grind, the game gave them a way to progress and they simply took it to a extreme by grinding mobs for 8 hours straight.  Don't believe me?  Look at role players.  Ever wonder why they generally don't complain about a "grind"?  Its because reaching max lvl in the shortest amount of time possible isn't their primary concern.

i beg to differ. before wow came out many games did force you (lvl wise) to find a camping spot where you would  fetch a mob and kill it and repeat untill you were the proper lvl to go to the next zone to repeat the process. Quests only gave item rewards and  there were no indicators who gave quests.  Such was the grind of FFXI when i started it when it came out. (dont know if it still the same) You had to grind repeatable quests in order to gain rank to get to the quests that might give you somthing you can use since most of the quest rewards where useless, save those that gave you rare spells.  Yes you could talk with every npc in sandoria and do their quests, however some required you to be at a certian lv in order to complete thus once again forcing you to go out there and mindlessly kill mobs in a "camping point "

 

 The crafting system was also a grind since you had to repetitively do the same and cheapest craft until you gained enough points to do the next cheapest craft. It was a huge money sink.

all this was unavoidable repetitive grind.

 

Then wow came out. all it did was reduce grind. which is why its so big now. quests kill the need to crush mobs at the same place all the time. there was NO need to camp an area of mobs since there where tons of quests. Of course the"hard core" players disliked this at first and bashed wow as it was "not an mmo" since lvl cap can be achived by solo play. Crafting was also reduced in grind yet the same priciple applied. grind the cheapest craft to lvl to the next cheapest craft.

 However wow increased grind in some areas like rep with factions. The main factions were easy to achieve since you gained rep via the quests as you lvled, but the rest of the factions required you to slaughter tons of mobs that gave rep to that faction and quests for those factions were few and repeatable. End game was also a grind as you had to repeat it so much in order to get your set of armor and so forth.

 

Now for Tabula rasa, I can say grind is totally optional. Only if you want to and like everyone else said, its actually fun as hell. I just hit the 30's and i still have NOT been forced to go out on my own accord and staughter mobs to get  the required lvl to go to the next area. The ToO mission , which actually sound like a huge grind go hand to hand with regular questing. All quests lead to the minibosses in each area, by the time your about done with all the quests in a zone you probably have met all the kill x amount since they are everywhere for all the quests you do.

There is no rep to grind for now (dont know if such thing will be added in the future). So i can safely say that tabula rasa is grind free.

I think you kind of missed my point.  What I was saying is that squeezing as much as you can into a short period of time is what makes it grindy.  Example.  Lets say that your have to make 100 cookies for a bake sale on friday.  Its now monday.  If you make 1 batch of 20 cookies everyday until the bake sale...well... thats not to bad.  However, if you decide to make all 100 cookies on monday to just "get it done" it going to feel like a grind.  The person running the bake sale didn't tell you you have to make all 100 in one shot, The person baking them decided to do that.  Its the same with a game.  A faction grind for instance.  People will go out and grind 8 hours a day for a week to get it.  Why not just do 20-30 mins a day?  People don't do that because they are impatient.  Its not the games fault you are impatient and don't want to get it done over the course of a few months, its the players fault.

 

This really goes hand in hand with all the posts you see asking "How long to max lvl?"  I see at least 20 of those posts for every game.  What about the guy that made lvl 50 in TR in 2 days?  Its the players mindset of getting the best the fastest that makes games seem like a grind.

 

Another example.  Fishing.  I'm not talking about fishing in game (Although I loved fishing in FFXI) I am talking about real life fishing.  Fishing has to be one of the most repetive things around.  Sit in chair, cast rod, wait, reel in, cast rod.  But people that love it don't think its a grind.  You know why?  Because of their mindset.  When they start in the morning they don't say to themselves "I have to catch 50 fish by noon"  they say (I am going to park my @ss in this chair with this cooler full of beer and enjoy relaxing".  Gamers need to learn to do the same thing.

maxnrosy

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

Originally posted by maxnrosy


 
Originally posted by Rollotamasi


I am a firm believer that games do not have "grinds" its that players make games a grind.  Players find a goal and then do everything they can to reach that goal in the shortest amount of time and that makes it a grind. Example:  I am lvl 20, I want to be lvl 30 in a week, I can accomplish that if I kill XYZ amount of mobs.  All players tend to see is the "end game" and want to reach it as fast as possible so they do the same thing over and over and over.  The game didn't give them a grind, the game gave them a way to progress and they simply took it to a extreme by grinding mobs for 8 hours straight.  Don't believe me?  Look at role players.  Ever wonder why they generally don't complain about a "grind"?  Its because reaching max lvl in the shortest amount of time possible isn't their primary concern.

i beg to differ. before wow came out many games did force you (lvl wise) to find a camping spot where you would  fetch a mob and kill it and repeat untill you were the proper lvl to go to the next zone to repeat the process. Quests only gave item rewards and  there were no indicators who gave quests.  Such was the grind of FFXI when i started it when it came out. (dont know if it still the same) You had to grind repeatable quests in order to gain rank to get to the quests that might give you somthing you can use since most of the quest rewards where useless, save those that gave you rare spells.  Yes you could talk with every npc in sandoria and do their quests, however some required you to be at a certian lv in order to complete thus once again forcing you to go out there and mindlessly kill mobs in a "camping point "

 

 The crafting system was also a grind since you had to repetitively do the same and cheapest craft until you gained enough points to do the next cheapest craft. It was a huge money sink.

all this was unavoidable repetitive grind.

 

Then wow came out. all it did was reduce grind. which is why its so big now. quests kill the need to crush mobs at the same place all the time. there was NO need to camp an area of mobs since there where tons of quests. Of course the"hard core" players disliked this at first and bashed wow as it was "not an mmo" since lvl cap can be achived by solo play. Crafting was also reduced in grind yet the same priciple applied. grind the cheapest craft to lvl to the next cheapest craft.

 However wow increased grind in some areas like rep with factions. The main factions were easy to achieve since you gained rep via the quests as you lvled, but the rest of the factions required you to slaughter tons of mobs that gave rep to that faction and quests for those factions were few and repeatable. End game was also a grind as you had to repeat it so much in order to get your set of armor and so forth.

 

Now for Tabula rasa, I can say grind is totally optional. Only if you want to and like everyone else said, its actually fun as hell. I just hit the 30's and i still have NOT been forced to go out on my own accord and staughter mobs to get  the required lvl to go to the next area. The ToO mission , which actually sound like a huge grind go hand to hand with regular questing. All quests lead to the minibosses in each area, by the time your about done with all the quests in a zone you probably have met all the kill x amount since they are everywhere for all the quests you do.

There is no rep to grind for now (dont know if such thing will be added in the future). So i can safely say that tabula rasa is grind free.

I think you kind of missed my point.  What I was saying is that squeezing as much as you can into a short period of time is what makes it grindy.  Example.  Lets say that your have to make 100 cookies for a bake sale on friday.  Its now monday.  If you make 1 batch of 20 cookies everyday until the bake sale...well... thats not to bad.  However, if you decide to make all 100 cookies on monday to just "get it done" it going to feel like a grind.  The person running the bake sale didn't tell you you have to make all 100 in one shot, The person baking them decided to do that.  Its the same with a game.  A faction grind for instance.  People will go out and grind 8 hours a day for a week to get it.  Why not just do 20-30 mins a day?  People don't do that because they are impatient.  Its not the games fault you are impatient and don't want to get it done over the course of a few months, its the players fault.

do not get me wrong i understood your point.  The misunderstanding of my post is that im speaking of the repeated action needed to acheive your goal, not in the timeframes. still even if you do it in small doses your still doing the same thing (which is what i was speaking of)

Well taking it in small doses is better than enduring hours opon hours of the same thing as quick as you can.

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Rollotamasi

Originally posted by maxnrosy


 
Originally posted by Rollotamasi

Originally posted by maxnrosy


 
Originally posted by Rollotamasi


I am a firm believer that games do not have "grinds" its that players make games a grind.  Players find a goal and then do everything they can to reach that goal in the shortest amount of time and that makes it a grind. Example:  I am lvl 20, I want to be lvl 30 in a week, I can accomplish that if I kill XYZ amount of mobs.  All players tend to see is the "end game" and want to reach it as fast as possible so they do the same thing over and over and over.  The game didn't give them a grind, the game gave them a way to progress and they simply took it to a extreme by grinding mobs for 8 hours straight.  Don't believe me?  Look at role players.  Ever wonder why they generally don't complain about a "grind"?  Its because reaching max lvl in the shortest amount of time possible isn't their primary concern.

i beg to differ. before wow came out many games did force you (lvl wise) to find a camping spot where you would  fetch a mob and kill it and repeat untill you were the proper lvl to go to the next zone to repeat the process. Quests only gave item rewards and  there were no indicators who gave quests.  Such was the grind of FFXI when i started it when it came out. (dont know if it still the same) You had to grind repeatable quests in order to gain rank to get to the quests that might give you somthing you can use since most of the quest rewards where useless, save those that gave you rare spells.  Yes you could talk with every npc in sandoria and do their quests, however some required you to be at a certian lv in order to complete thus once again forcing you to go out there and mindlessly kill mobs in a "camping point "

 

 The crafting system was also a grind since you had to repetitively do the same and cheapest craft until you gained enough points to do the next cheapest craft. It was a huge money sink.

all this was unavoidable repetitive grind.

 

Then wow came out. all it did was reduce grind. which is why its so big now. quests kill the need to crush mobs at the same place all the time. there was NO need to camp an area of mobs since there where tons of quests. Of course the"hard core" players disliked this at first and bashed wow as it was "not an mmo" since lvl cap can be achived by solo play. Crafting was also reduced in grind yet the same priciple applied. grind the cheapest craft to lvl to the next cheapest craft.

 However wow increased grind in some areas like rep with factions. The main factions were easy to achieve since you gained rep via the quests as you lvled, but the rest of the factions required you to slaughter tons of mobs that gave rep to that faction and quests for those factions were few and repeatable. End game was also a grind as you had to repeat it so much in order to get your set of armor and so forth.

 

Now for Tabula rasa, I can say grind is totally optional. Only if you want to and like everyone else said, its actually fun as hell. I just hit the 30's and i still have NOT been forced to go out on my own accord and staughter mobs to get  the required lvl to go to the next area. The ToO mission , which actually sound like a huge grind go hand to hand with regular questing. All quests lead to the minibosses in each area, by the time your about done with all the quests in a zone you probably have met all the kill x amount since they are everywhere for all the quests you do.

There is no rep to grind for now (dont know if such thing will be added in the future). So i can safely say that tabula rasa is grind free.

I think you kind of missed my point.  What I was saying is that squeezing as much as you can into a short period of time is what makes it grindy.  Example.  Lets say that your have to make 100 cookies for a bake sale on friday.  Its now monday.  If you make 1 batch of 20 cookies everyday until the bake sale...well... thats not to bad.  However, if you decide to make all 100 cookies on monday to just "get it done" it going to feel like a grind.  The person running the bake sale didn't tell you you have to make all 100 in one shot, The person baking them decided to do that.  Its the same with a game.  A faction grind for instance.  People will go out and grind 8 hours a day for a week to get it.  Why not just do 20-30 mins a day?  People don't do that because they are impatient.  Its not the games fault you are impatient and don't want to get it done over the course of a few months, its the players fault.

do not get me wrong i understood your point.  The misunderstanding of my post is that im speaking of the repeated action needed to acheive your goal, not in the timeframes. still even if you do it in small doses your still doing the same thing (which is what i was speaking of)

 

Well taking it in small doses is better than enduring hours opon hours of the same thing as quick as you can.

I just edited my post and added another example.  I think that one illustrates what I am trying to say a bit more.

jermell18

Originally posted by letum6030


I agree for the most part.  However, in games where there is nothing else to do but kill mobs and level, the only thing to do is explore and kill mobs.  The exploring part, in Lineage 2 for example, isn't a valid option when all of the cool places have high level mobs that kill you quickly.  I too enjoy the combat system of TR.  I just wish that my gf would get into it a little quicker.  She's never played any game other than Diablo 2 and WoW.  This is making it a little tough on her because of the vast difference in the combat.

That is so true about L2, and i can say TR is not a grind fest. Im lvl 18 (been slacking off, should be lvl 20) and i didnt grind one once to to get to that lvl and it took maybe 5 no more than 6 days to do that. The quest in the game give's a huge amount of xp. So i've found my self looking for more quest vs. looking for mobs. I have yet had to camp an area for xp.

As i said earlier im glad to see NCsoft has made alot of adjustments when it comes to putting out MMO's. I think alot of people are going to be shocked to see how successful this game will be. Especially the L2 people who "most" of them said TR will fail no doubt.

I mean every time im about to lvl i say ok what quest can i do, not what area can i camp for mobs. And if i've finished all the quest forthat map, i just move on to another instance or some thing. Thats good, i just hope TR has enough content to hold us over. Im really happy with the game, its fun. So, so far, so good.