As it has been said before, the reason they suck is because WoW is so successful that every game wants some WoW money. No one is going to take a chance. When they do take a chance it can spell disaster so they stick to that formula. It is good to see that PoTBS and TR are actually taking a chance and not putting in Elves. It is very refreshing. As far as the majority of these games is concerned, we will see WoW clones for a very long time. May as well just play WoW or another genre of games. WoW and it's clones are here to stay. Not only here to stay but we have many more clones coming out next year. The biggest WoW clone of them all is the most hyped MMO for next year --> WAR. WAR is a direct copy of WoW. They did not even try to make it different a little bit. They just took WoW and put a different name on it.
How do you know that WAR is a copy of WoW? NDA means you cannot talk if you are in closed beta, if you are only reading the websites, you should be reading what I am reading, and that does indicates quite some new ideas. Dunno how they will be implemented, dunno how well those new ideas work out, but NDA aside, that is all we know. You claims that WAR is a WoW copy is total BS as it stands now.
Thing is, and this is just from the topic, Games have become very expensive to make. No news flash there but, just how deep that rabbit goes is hard to grasp for anyone not putting the cash up personally, or quite frankly, begging for it from investors. I remember the games that dropped you into a world and said live. That was Ultima Online. Those type of games don't exist anymore. Developers have decided gamers are too stupid to figure out how to live in a game world and make their own adventure and explore. There always has to be that damn story line. To me story lines are for books. And books belong in a library and that library should belong in town and that town should belong in a world, and if i want to play a story line i should be able to pick up that book and explore, and if i want to pick up another book and experience a story i should be able to, I'm in a library after all. Again that was Ultima Online. Then EA changed it to be more console friendly for the next gen of players and to stay competitive, so they thought. (Zipadee doo daaa.) The biggest mistake EA had was they didn't pursue Ultima Online 2 The 3d game. Then Sony with their platform console experience, and habits of the device, made everquest, and Mythic brought Dark Age Of Camelot and so on. My point is these console game habits have staled the market. This goes way back. How many different Donkey Kong or Pacman games pop up, tons! Do i need to bring up Tetris.. How many different ways can you make a player do the same thing? I Wont get started on the Korean game invasion.... Developers have been doing the same thing for so long because its profitable. It can be detrimental to have a flop. The game creation process is a game in itself. Many developers are now commercialising their singleplayer games as online multiplayer PC games and charging a fee. Not realising they just added a visual lobby in place of the room join lobby we use to see just the names of players and their chat text in. Example Hellgate: London. They took the Diablo2 game style and charged you a fee for the lobby and a few items the pulled out of the full game, simple items, but desirable enough to call extra content.
Back in the day we would have called that a scam and another developer trying to F@k their player base.
/agree
Its true, Everythings a spin off these days. Where are the real developers?
Originally posted by Sidoxs Because they are all WoW clones. End of thread
....and WoW is just a evolutionary continuation of the EQ1 legacy in game play. The genre has not changed very much since EQ1 in the grand scheme of things.
I think the same thing is going on that happened to video games in the early 80's. Atari was bought by Warner, and the quality of games kept going down because, to quote Allan Alcorn (Pong designer), the company would " throw up a game and wait for money to fall." The focus shifted to pumping out games instead of creating high quality ones, until you got E.T. for the Atari. I haven't seen the MMO equivalent yet, but I'm sure it's coming.
They say that those who forget the past are doomed to forget it...
Every MMO is basically the same stuff over and over and over. Questing is repetitive, kill xxx mob and get yyy reward. Deliver xxx to NPC_39234248 and get 2 copper pieces. Grind on mobs for experience just to get to end game and then what. Oh yeah, do tons more grinding to get uber gear just so you can be competitive. Doesn't someone have a new MMO concept yet....
Either change your playstyle to being less shallow and addept or simply stop playing htis genre, it's not the games who are at fault ( okay ....okay sometimes it is........but allot of people simply seem to have lost touch to play this genre. It's a mindset that seems to grow in popularity ....unfortuanly it seems
I think the same thing is going on that happened to video games in the early 80's. Atari was bought by Warner, and the quality of games kept going down because, to quote Allan Alcorn (Pong designer), the company would " throw up a game and wait for money to fall." The focus shifted to pumping out games instead of creating high quality ones, until you got E.T. for the Atari. I haven't seen the MMO equivalent yet, but I'm sure it's coming. They say that those who forget the past are doomed to forget it...
This is exactly what has happened.
Games are no longer designed for gamers. They're designed to make money.
It really is throw up a game and wait for the money to fall.
WoW just exacerbated this already present trend. Now it's be like WoW and get some of that sweet, sweet, Wow candy.
SWG's NGE was totally about that.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
The problem is that mostly all mmo players now are achievers/killers. They just play for that uber sword or whatever. There is a goal in their mind which they strive to achieve. They wanna be a badass in pvp or show of their phat loot. They rush through the game as fast as possible to achieve. No one plays to Explore or Socialize anymore. No one is content spending time to acually figure out puzzles or strategize or anything like that. Just log on to thotbot.com or whatver and find out the easiest way to "get through" everything. Try to take some time to enjoy the game. Explore some new things, take it all in! Enjoy the ride, do not speed to the destination!
It's not a good time to be a SEAK in the MMORPG scene, thats for sure.
Someone should tell the Moneymen that we exist too But ya know.. How can we when the AK** & KA** are the biggest yellers at any forum or communication towards devs? We can't be heard over all the Achievers and Killers.
I think the same thing is going on that happened to video games in the early 80's. Atari was bought by Warner, and the quality of games kept going down because, to quote Allan Alcorn (Pong designer), the company would " throw up a game and wait for money to fall." The focus shifted to pumping out games instead of creating high quality ones, until you got E.T. for the Atari. I haven't seen the MMO equivalent yet, but I'm sure it's coming. They say that those who forget the past are doomed to forget it...
This is exactly what has happened.
Games are no longer designed for gamers. They're designed to make money.
It really is throw up a game and wait for the money to fall.
WoW just exacerbated this already present trend. Now it's be like WoW and get some of that sweet, sweet, Wow candy.
SWG's NGE was totally about that.
I agree with you on that. Games are not make for the best benefits of gamers, it made to enrich the developer's wallet. Food is not prepared for the best health of the clients, look at MacDonalds.
In a capitalist world, no one pities those going broke trying to help people. Everyone flocks after the rich and fabulous, even those who are known to get rich in less than noble ways. Who among us are willing to donate our wealth to help build a game that is good to play but won't make money? AND good to play for whom?
Try to play a sports game and win it while the betting company lose a few billion. Don't expect to arrive home in 1 piece. You cannot possibly play your own game if you cost the big guys to lose money. And you want them to lose some money to make a game for you? SIgh ... I wish. If only people are as noble as you are.
I think the same thing is going on that happened to video games in the early 80's. Atari was bought by Warner, and the quality of games kept going down because, to quote Allan Alcorn (Pong designer), the company would " throw up a game and wait for money to fall." The focus shifted to pumping out games instead of creating high quality ones, until you got E.T. for the Atari. I haven't seen the MMO equivalent yet, but I'm sure it's coming. They say that those who forget the past are doomed to forget it...
This is exactly what has happened.
Games are no longer designed for gamers. They're designed to make money.
It really is throw up a game and wait for the money to fall.
WoW just exacerbated this already present trend. Now it's be like WoW and get some of that sweet, sweet, Wow candy.
SWG's NGE was totally about that.
I agree with you on that. Games are not make for the best benefits of gamers, it made to enrich the developer's wallet. Food is not prepared for the best health of the clients, look at MacDonalds.
In a capitalist world, no one pities those going broke trying to help people. Everyone flocks after the rich and fabulous, even those who are known to get rich in less than noble ways. Who among us are willing to donate our wealth to help build a game that is good to play but won't make money? AND good to play for whom?
Try to play a sports game and win it while the betting company lose a few billion. Don't expect to arrive home in 1 piece. You cannot possibly play your own game if you cost the big guys to lose money. And you want them to lose some money to make a game for you? SIgh ... I wish. If only people are as noble as you are.
Well, the problem isn't designers designing games for gamers that make money. I don't expect any of these enterprises to go broke providing a service. It's just that it isn't enough to do something you love, make a few bucks in the process, and invest those bucks back in the something you love.
It's that nowadays unless you make money hand over fist and provide numbers that grow in perpetuity (which can't be done by anyone) you're considered a failure. Being profitable alone isn't enough. Corporations shut down divisions that are not REALLY profitable.
It's that the moneymen insist that they make SCADS of money, and are willing to sacrifice the art to do it.
SWG is a good example of this. The numbers were not WoW spectacular, so the greedy gits killed their own game in a wild gamble to get the sweet sweet candy of the WoW numbers.
The other problem is consumers will accept crap in a box if it has the right label on it. Many here will insist that WoW is a prime example of this. I don't agree, but I do acknowledge that WoW's success has severely limited the MMO form, because the moneymen think WoW is the template to wallow in money nirvanna for them.
Ultimately, they're more about the money than they are about the games, and it shows.
As for what gamers actually want, it's what the Ferengi say: once you have their money, never give it back.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
The nature of capitalism has changed somewhat. Global expansion of big corporations adds fuel. The few big ones will buy all competitors. Will Mythic refuse to sell to EA. Will a small indie with a promising good product refuse a fat offer from SoE?
Generally no. After that purchase, all blames fall on the money guys. Can you blame the money guys? They pay astronomic sums (imagine TR) to buy a game, and will they be under pressure to milk every cents out of the new game? The money guys are not gamers, their decision will not be 100% game driven. In turn, they are not gamers, any setback, even as small a setback as failed subscription modules, failed distribution or bad launch as in HGL becomes the money guys' fault.
Games are not as good as they were, is that true? Is EQ so much better than WoW, Lotro or CoX? Is Diablo at launch better than HGL? I doubt. We have matured, we have seen our own expectation rising exponentially while new technology and ideas only come slowly. After the honeymoon of a new genre, we will suffer disappointment. Dune2 started RTS (almost) we all love it for all the limitations, RTS is now a dime a dozen. UO gets us all hooked up, even though my alt can only walk a step every 4 seconds with my 16k modem. Those were the fine moments, and they only come a few times in a lifetime. Otherwise, life is normal, boring, and so are games.
Maybe its time to look beyond the monitor and realise that there is a sun rising not on our monitor, but outside the window.
Because developers cater to the largest market. Like has been said puting out MMO's is a seriously expensive venture, and innovation is a gamble. The last innovative game put out was SWG, and its early and continued success was highly dependent on the selling power of the Star Wars name.
I think the development community as a whole is still trying to decide how to deal with WOW. I personally think that WOW represents evolution in game progress (wow managed to please gamers on many ends of the spectrum, it wasn't a dumbed down game, and thats why people enjoyed it - unique PVE encounters, unique pvp balance, etc). Unfortunately, power creates greed, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We all know companies start to become all about the bottom line when the profit goes up, and we all know that there are many game examples in the history of games where they have gone from success to simple cash grab attempts (go look at any of those "put real money into it to have superpowers" MMOs).
I only hope we all don't wait too long for another great groundbreaking game in the spirit of WOW and many others in that category so that we can all have something to collectively enjoy. I think Warhammer has some potential but I think at this point they are going to try to rush development and screw up somewhere. It's got a lot of creative potential as the next DAOC but we have no guarantee as of yet. Maybe if there was another "gamers' game" that could be developed, brainstormed from the ideas of all of us MMO gamers, then we'd be onto something. However, in doing so, the larger a group you get feedback from the harder it is to make decisions, and people can think forever and still not agreee/come up with an actual result from it.
If people want to pool their collective thoughts somewhere I'm sure we all could do that (the thousands and thousands of gamers out there), but I still suspect that a large company will either try to steal the results or simply it won't go anywhere without some real effort.
So my question instead of just whining about MMO's sucking, is, what can we as individuals really do about it from here, and what does everyone agree we have to look forward to in the near future? (looks kinda EVE/WAR atm and thats more of a time-passer for now it appears). Do we/should we all find a place to really start coming up with our own MMO? Is that what it's going to take to bring the heart of gaming back to its roots?
/edit: Graphical shinies are not the first and all-encompassing requirement for a great game, creative development is just as important. And if you guys want me to set up a place for such as I suggested, I would be willing to put in that effort for the spirit of the community and because gaming is important to us all.
hmmm, WoW clones? You mean clones of the EQ model which WoW is. Between EQ and the release of WoW there were quite a few games out there that resembled EQ. WoW just made it bigger than it's parent, and siblings, and cousins, and cousin's friends, and friends of friends..etc, etc.
This genre is building upon what created it or atleast a market for it. You have the UO model or the EQ model or the MMOfps model like WW2O and Neocron. MMO's resemble these because these games built the genre which is pretty new relative to gaming which is also pretty new. It's how things work people.
Pizzas today are very similar to when pizzas first hit it big...if it were anything else, it wouldn't be a pizza.
I'm not too happy with the genre altogether. Until they come out with a game that caters to casuals from level 1 to max level and rewards that play style like first class citizens instead of the usual red headed step child behavior we see currently, I will not be excited about any new MMO coming out, EQesque or not. No play style should ever feel second class or play second fiddle to another. These are suppose to be games, not social experiments gone awry.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
hmmm, WoW clones? You mean clones of the EQ model which WoW is. Between EQ and the release of WoW there were quite a few games out there that resembled EQ. WoW just made it bigger than it's parent, and siblings, and cousins, and cousin's friends, and friends of friends..etc, etc.
This genre is building upon what created it or atleast a market for it. You have the UO model or the EQ model or the MMOfps model like WW2O and Neocron. MMO's resemble these because these games built the genre which is pretty new relative to gaming which is also pretty new. It's how things work people. Pizzas today are very similar to when pizzas first hit it big...if it were anything else, it wouldn't be a pizza.
"WoW Clones" In that the expectation of WoW's phenomenal success is what they are after.
The game itself is irrelevant; WoW is Everquest refined, but the point is about the money, not the game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
hmmm, WoW clones? You mean clones of the EQ model which WoW is. Between EQ and the release of WoW there were quite a few games out there that resembled EQ. WoW just made it bigger than it's parent, and siblings, and cousins, and cousin's friends, and friends of friends..etc, etc.
This genre is building upon what created it or atleast a market for it. You have the UO model or the EQ model or the MMOfps model like WW2O and Neocron. MMO's resemble these because these games built the genre which is pretty new relative to gaming which is also pretty new. It's how things work people. Pizzas today are very similar to when pizzas first hit it big...if it were anything else, it wouldn't be a pizza.
"WoW Clones" In that the expectation of WoW's phenomenal success is what they are after.
The game itself is irrelevant; WoW is Everquest refined, but the point is about the money, not the game.
So then every game must be a WoW clone, because every game wants to be successful?
MMO's are like movies...they're fucking EXPENSIVE to make. Why take the risk of making something innovative and unique when you can just slap together another cheap script about the "end of the world", whip up some special effects, release in the summer, and watch the big bucks roll in. Seriously, the two are so similar its almost scarry
hmmm, WoW clones? You mean clones of the EQ model which WoW is. Between EQ and the release of WoW there were quite a few games out there that resembled EQ. WoW just made it bigger than it's parent, and siblings, and cousins, and cousin's friends, and friends of friends..etc, etc.
This genre is building upon what created it or atleast a market for it. You have the UO model or the EQ model or the MMOfps model like WW2O and Neocron. MMO's resemble these because these games built the genre which is pretty new relative to gaming which is also pretty new. It's how things work people. Pizzas today are very similar to when pizzas first hit it big...if it were anything else, it wouldn't be a pizza.
"WoW Clones" In that the expectation of WoW's phenomenal success is what they are after.
The game itself is irrelevant; WoW is Everquest refined, but the point is about the money, not the game.
So then every game must be a WoW clone, because every game wants to be successful?
The moneymen are cowards; if there's a formula that is successful, they will adhere to it slavishly and be averse to any innovation.
Look at Hollywood. Formula crap out the gazoo.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
MMO's are like movies...they're fucking EXPENSIVE to make. Why take the risk of making something innovative and unique when you can just slap together another cheap script about the "end of the world", whip up some special effects, release in the summer, and watch the big bucks roll in. Seriously, the two are so similar its almost scarry
Very true.
What a lot of users of MMORPG don't get is that they are NOT the target audience of the corporations who are publishing MMOs. We might be the targets of those with niche projects, but for mass market, no way in hell. We're too demanding, too vocal, too difficult to please.
The MMORPG crowd is an "art house" audience. Not the audience the big boys are looking to make an impression with.
These guys KNOW they can sell crap in a box and make a profit. Look at Lucas Arts. Striving for excellence is advertising copy.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Comments
How do you know that WAR is a copy of WoW? NDA means you cannot talk if you are in closed beta, if you are only reading the websites, you should be reading what I am reading, and that does indicates quite some new ideas. Dunno how they will be implemented, dunno how well those new ideas work out, but NDA aside, that is all we know. You claims that WAR is a WoW copy is total BS as it stands now.
Website
....and WoW is just a evolutionary continuation of the EQ1 legacy in game play. The genre has not changed very much since EQ1 in the grand scheme of things.
I think the same thing is going on that happened to video games in the early 80's. Atari was bought by Warner, and the quality of games kept going down because, to quote Allan Alcorn (Pong designer), the company would " throw up a game and wait for money to fall." The focus shifted to pumping out games instead of creating high quality ones, until you got E.T. for the Atari. I haven't seen the MMO equivalent yet, but I'm sure it's coming.
They say that those who forget the past are doomed to forget it...
----------------------------
Currently Playing:
DarkWind: War on Wheels
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DarkWind: War on Wheels
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_55/330-Cold-Equations-The-Death-of-a-Game-Company
Just for reading pleasure.
FoE Fist of the Empire
Either change your playstyle to being less shallow and addept or simply stop playing htis genre, it's not the games who are at fault ( okay ....okay sometimes it is........but allot of people simply seem to have lost touch to play this genre. It's a mindset that seems to grow in popularity ....unfortuanly it seems
Games are no longer designed for gamers. They're designed to make money.
It really is throw up a game and wait for the money to fall.
WoW just exacerbated this already present trend. Now it's be like WoW and get some of that sweet, sweet, Wow candy.
SWG's NGE was totally about that.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
It's not a good time to be a SEAK in the MMORPG scene, thats for sure.
Someone should tell the Moneymen that we exist too
But ya know.. How can we when the AK** & KA** are the biggest yellers at any forum or communication towards devs? We can't be heard over all the Achievers and Killers.
Games are no longer designed for gamers. They're designed to make money.
It really is throw up a game and wait for the money to fall.
WoW just exacerbated this already present trend. Now it's be like WoW and get some of that sweet, sweet, Wow candy.
SWG's NGE was totally about that.
I agree with you on that. Games are not make for the best benefits of gamers, it made to enrich the developer's wallet. Food is not prepared for the best health of the clients, look at MacDonalds.In a capitalist world, no one pities those going broke trying to help people. Everyone flocks after the rich and fabulous, even those who are known to get rich in less than noble ways. Who among us are willing to donate our wealth to help build a game that is good to play but won't make money? AND good to play for whom?
Try to play a sports game and win it while the betting company lose a few billion. Don't expect to arrive home in 1 piece. You cannot possibly play your own game if you cost the big guys to lose money. And you want them to lose some money to make a game for you? SIgh ... I wish. If only people are as noble as you are.
This is exactly what has happened.Games are no longer designed for gamers. They're designed to make money.
It really is throw up a game and wait for the money to fall.
WoW just exacerbated this already present trend. Now it's be like WoW and get some of that sweet, sweet, Wow candy.
SWG's NGE was totally about that.
I agree with you on that. Games are not make for the best benefits of gamers, it made to enrich the developer's wallet. Food is not prepared for the best health of the clients, look at MacDonalds.In a capitalist world, no one pities those going broke trying to help people. Everyone flocks after the rich and fabulous, even those who are known to get rich in less than noble ways. Who among us are willing to donate our wealth to help build a game that is good to play but won't make money? AND good to play for whom?
Try to play a sports game and win it while the betting company lose a few billion. Don't expect to arrive home in 1 piece. You cannot possibly play your own game if you cost the big guys to lose money. And you want them to lose some money to make a game for you? SIgh ... I wish. If only people are as noble as you are.
Well, the problem isn't designers designing games for gamers that make money. I don't expect any of these enterprises to go broke providing a service. It's just that it isn't enough to do something you love, make a few bucks in the process, and invest those bucks back in the something you love.
It's that nowadays unless you make money hand over fist and provide numbers that grow in perpetuity (which can't be done by anyone) you're considered a failure. Being profitable alone isn't enough. Corporations shut down divisions that are not REALLY profitable.
It's that the moneymen insist that they make SCADS of money, and are willing to sacrifice the art to do it.
SWG is a good example of this. The numbers were not WoW spectacular, so the greedy gits killed their own game in a wild gamble to get the sweet sweet candy of the WoW numbers.
The other problem is consumers will accept crap in a box if it has the right label on it. Many here will insist that WoW is a prime example of this. I don't agree, but I do acknowledge that WoW's success has severely limited the MMO form, because the moneymen think WoW is the template to wallow in money nirvanna for them.
Ultimately, they're more about the money than they are about the games, and it shows.
As for what gamers actually want, it's what the Ferengi say: once you have their money, never give it back.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
To SioBabble: too long to quote
The nature of capitalism has changed somewhat. Global expansion of big corporations adds fuel. The few big ones will buy all competitors. Will Mythic refuse to sell to EA. Will a small indie with a promising good product refuse a fat offer from SoE?
Generally no. After that purchase, all blames fall on the money guys. Can you blame the money guys? They pay astronomic sums (imagine TR) to buy a game, and will they be under pressure to milk every cents out of the new game? The money guys are not gamers, their decision will not be 100% game driven. In turn, they are not gamers, any setback, even as small a setback as failed subscription modules, failed distribution or bad launch as in HGL becomes the money guys' fault.
Games are not as good as they were, is that true? Is EQ so much better than WoW, Lotro or CoX? Is Diablo at launch better than HGL? I doubt. We have matured, we have seen our own expectation rising exponentially while new technology and ideas only come slowly. After the honeymoon of a new genre, we will suffer disappointment. Dune2 started RTS (almost) we all love it for all the limitations, RTS is now a dime a dozen. UO gets us all hooked up, even though my alt can only walk a step every 4 seconds with my 16k modem. Those were the fine moments, and they only come a few times in a lifetime. Otherwise, life is normal, boring, and so are games.
Maybe its time to look beyond the monitor and realise that there is a sun rising not on our monitor, but outside the window.
You'll never get the Ferengi to go along with that
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Because developers cater to the largest market. Like has been said puting out MMO's is a seriously expensive venture, and innovation is a gamble. The last innovative game put out was SWG, and its early and continued success was highly dependent on the selling power of the Star Wars name.
I agree with many of you on different levels.
I think the development community as a whole is still trying to decide how to deal with WOW. I personally think that WOW represents evolution in game progress (wow managed to please gamers on many ends of the spectrum, it wasn't a dumbed down game, and thats why people enjoyed it - unique PVE encounters, unique pvp balance, etc). Unfortunately, power creates greed, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We all know companies start to become all about the bottom line when the profit goes up, and we all know that there are many game examples in the history of games where they have gone from success to simple cash grab attempts (go look at any of those "put real money into it to have superpowers" MMOs).
I only hope we all don't wait too long for another great groundbreaking game in the spirit of WOW and many others in that category so that we can all have something to collectively enjoy. I think Warhammer has some potential but I think at this point they are going to try to rush development and screw up somewhere. It's got a lot of creative potential as the next DAOC but we have no guarantee as of yet. Maybe if there was another "gamers' game" that could be developed, brainstormed from the ideas of all of us MMO gamers, then we'd be onto something. However, in doing so, the larger a group you get feedback from the harder it is to make decisions, and people can think forever and still not agreee/come up with an actual result from it.
If people want to pool their collective thoughts somewhere I'm sure we all could do that (the thousands and thousands of gamers out there), but I still suspect that a large company will either try to steal the results or simply it won't go anywhere without some real effort.
So my question instead of just whining about MMO's sucking, is, what can we as individuals really do about it from here, and what does everyone agree we have to look forward to in the near future? (looks kinda EVE/WAR atm and thats more of a time-passer for now it appears). Do we/should we all find a place to really start coming up with our own MMO? Is that what it's going to take to bring the heart of gaming back to its roots?
/edit: Graphical shinies are not the first and all-encompassing requirement for a great game, creative development is just as important. And if you guys want me to set up a place for such as I suggested, I would be willing to put in that effort for the spirit of the community and because gaming is important to us all.
/rant
hmmm, WoW clones? You mean clones of the EQ model which WoW is. Between EQ and the release of WoW there were quite a few games out there that resembled EQ. WoW just made it bigger than it's parent, and siblings, and cousins, and cousin's friends, and friends of friends..etc, etc.
This genre is building upon what created it or atleast a market for it. You have the UO model or the EQ model or the MMOfps model like WW2O and Neocron. MMO's resemble these because these games built the genre which is pretty new relative to gaming which is also pretty new. It's how things work people.
Pizzas today are very similar to when pizzas first hit it big...if it were anything else, it wouldn't be a pizza.
I'm not too happy with the genre altogether. Until they come out with a game that caters to casuals from level 1 to max level and rewards that play style like first class citizens instead of the usual red headed step child behavior we see currently, I will not be excited about any new MMO coming out, EQesque or not. No play style should ever feel second class or play second fiddle to another. These are suppose to be games, not social experiments gone awry.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The game itself is irrelevant; WoW is Everquest refined, but the point is about the money, not the game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
The game itself is irrelevant; WoW is Everquest refined, but the point is about the money, not the game.
So then every game must be a WoW clone, because every game wants to be successful?
MMO's are like movies...they're fucking EXPENSIVE to make. Why take the risk of making something innovative and unique when you can just slap together another cheap script about the "end of the world", whip up some special effects, release in the summer, and watch the big bucks roll in. Seriously, the two are so similar its almost scarry
I'm done with MMOs. Theres a game called Rock Band that is probably the greatest game ever made. (even over GO)
The game itself is irrelevant; WoW is Everquest refined, but the point is about the money, not the game.
So then every game must be a WoW clone, because every game wants to be successful?
The moneymen are cowards; if there's a formula that is successful, they will adhere to it slavishly and be averse to any innovation.
Look at Hollywood. Formula crap out the gazoo.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Very true.
What a lot of users of MMORPG don't get is that they are NOT the target audience of the corporations who are publishing MMOs. We might be the targets of those with niche projects, but for mass market, no way in hell. We're too demanding, too vocal, too difficult to please.
The MMORPG crowd is an "art house" audience. Not the audience the big boys are looking to make an impression with.
These guys KNOW they can sell crap in a box and make a profit. Look at Lucas Arts. Striving for excellence is advertising copy.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi