well, that kind of sux. the cool thing about develping a character is the fact that you can make it unique. Looks, voices are cool to change around, but attributes, alternate advancement, talent points, all that stuff is what actually helps us to make a unique char, different from everyone else's.
I hope this makes sense, its freaking 4 am here and i need to go to bed...
The illusion of customization mentioned comes from the fact that game may have for example only 2 out of 6 stats that are vital to your class. Now if you level you will most certainly distribute points among those 2 stats. Yes you may add some points elsewhere if it helps you along the way, for example, in solo play(if you solo at all). If you spread out too much, you get a "gimped" character that is less capable than others that stick to 2 stats rule. Meaning mostly players with that class will tend to put 2 points in only those stats. Where is the illusion part ? Well you have 6 stats, but you are only playing with 2 stats. Unless game is very stats oriented (RO anyone ?). Good question would be: "Why not make 5 stats vital ? At least to some extent ?". I can hear 50% developers going "too much hassle". Btw for me a good example of character customization is "Elder Scrolls". I really would like to see more of that in mmorpgs (with a bit of realism toned down).
I understand. You feel that you are willing to know as much as can be known in order to create the best character possible and you should be rewarded for that. And the less you need to know the more you feel that your willingness to know is gone to waste.
And so the more any scrub can come off the street with no knowledge or care about the game and perform at your level the more pissed off you get.
You want reality - strong survive the weak die.
Unfortunately for you, corporations don't want that. As long as they're getting the same amount from you and the peon you're both considered equal.
So there you are 6'11'' with your dunkin and jump shots and you're put into a type of basketball game that gives migits just as much of an ability to perform as you. Your abilities dont give you much of an advantage, the only thing that matters is how much time you're willing to dedicate. Its an attempt to make life fair for the migit at the expense of your skills.
So consider the easier-to-understand actions taken by Funcom as affirmative action. Affirmative action for noobs.
--edit
whether this fact makes you more understanding of funcom or more distasteful towards AA, im glad
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
Originally posted by Pynda It astounds me how devs can fail to realize that some of us actually take pleasure in carefully developing a unique character in the MMORPG's we play - even if we do occasionally make a mistake along the way. And that simply adding a spurt of blood to every single weapon swing we make, or seeing cartoon tits in game is going to be a satisfactory alternative to endless grinding.
The problem I have with this statement -- and it's often overlooked in the rose-colored looking glass -- is that while players take great pride in developing a character from scratch and making it as unique as possible through skill-based leveling, the giant fallback is that many players following this route will become obsolete over time, in the game.
What winds up happening is that players form strategies for maximizing strength and minimizing weaknesses -- effectively exploiting the skill system's core weaknesses. A great example here is Asheron's Call, which had perfected the system set in place by Ultima Online.
In AC1, you are given the ability to select and specialize in a number of skills (devised from a base number of skill points at character creation) and can train additional skills as you level up, since more skill points are awarded. Skills are raised through use of item/skill and can be raised manually by spending experience points to speed the process up. There are a good variety of skills ranging from combat to combat support (item and life magic, and healing) and even non-combat augmentation (such as cooking and alchemy).
It all sounds good on paper, but once the max-min folks come into play, they start lopsiding the balance of the game. While everyone could reach the same potential power, they reach it at different times -- so that guy who specialized in 100% combat has a definitive edge over the guy who spec'd even a little bit half-assed.
Again, it still sounds good -- except when it applies to PvE, and the XP grind suddenly gets very quick for certain templates due to some outrageous advantages. They shoot up in level and need to be countered, else they wind up destroying the game balance and possibly the economy in the process (if certain monsters drop good loot and are very easy for these overpowered players to kill).
What ultimately winds up happening in these cases is that players follow suit to keep themselves competitive in the game, even if they're not PvPing. This action is called templating and actually winds up turning a skill-based game into (ironically enough) a class-based game.
Speaking empirically, I knew a few people that loved AC1 very much, and played "gimped" templates the whole way through. One memorable template specialized in sword and war magic. These folks played for months but encountered a total and complete burnout once they realized the actual viability of their chosen profession, only to have that gap widened by corrections in balance to counter the overpowered folks. Essentially, these players had been punished for enjoying the game their way rather than exploiting the system.
Until someone comes out with a fool proof skill based system protected against templating -- and that it isn't easy to do, if it is even possible -- then level and class based scaling systems will be around for a while yet.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
xPaladin, I completely agree with your post & would like to add that I personally do not think that it is possible to balance a skill based game with unique skills.
Even UO had balance issues. Anyone remember how powerful tamers were after T2A? And how many people took up this all but forgotten skill that was left for the horse wranglers and turned it into the most powerful PvP weapon in the game?
There were all kinds of templates in UO. Even though there were a ton of skills that you could choose from, you basically chose a template & raised the skills associated with that template, forgetting the rest.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It seems like alot of "Old School/Mature/Or Hardcore Gamers" here just love to hate games. Many of you are talking about how stupid the game will be when they havn't played it yet and actully your not taking the whole game into account, you are nit picking a small aspect and trashing it.
I think most people crying about not being able to pick there stats are the people who exploit the number system of stats to OWN everyone else, this isn't customizing ur charceter to make them real, you are just doing the math and picking the best set up, which leds to less intelegent people doing to a website and copying the template and then you have everyone only playing the BEST class, not the class that represents you.
When it come down to is 1 plus 1 equals 2, and letting people toy with all the number variables will always lead to a 1337 formula that unblances the game.
And people who say this is a WoW, must just love to hate games, or can;t read. AoC has manu features that are nothing like WoW, the entire player run city system, a crafting system that is worth wild, not to mention items used for Role Playing, do u "Old School" gamers rememeber that? I do, and I'm not a fossile. I like buying items for my house and acting out my charecter, not MAXIMIZING my stats to beat everyone up.
but i guess us Young and imature gamers who enjoy a well written story and hate geeks that having nothing to better to do then play with there calculators all day so they can call them selves cool things like "Hardcore Gamer" lol, thats like calling urself a "Extreme Computer Programmer" just play the game or move on
not once was the reason for me wanting and waiting for AoC, the stat point custom part. And i trully hope those who sounds so seriously of this aren't going to back out just because of that small unimportant part, else they are really stupid.
The reason for this game, for me atleast, is the gameplay, the lore, the feel of getting to play this (hopefully) vivid and alive game, with alot of options to make your char look or feel a special way, the pvp'in, the group'in, the class co-op, and adventures and hopefully very amazing places to visit and do all kinds of nice feats.
The stat points part were in the end almost always the same, by logical choice many people would in any case just follow the same path with marginal difference anyway, the automated stat points part is nothing more than a burden being put aside , so you can focus on all the important things in this game, being how you handle your weapons and combo the abilities properly, the talent/skill trees, gameplay, adventuring with your friends, and how to execute a pvp well enough.
Also the lunatic jabbing about wow clone just because of "3 talent/skill trees" is quite stupid to say the least, this is not the first time nor will it ever be the last time, the number 3 of this kind of "talent trees" are simply a logical way to make it seem like having different paths to choose and 3 is never too many nor too few, it's the magical number for many things and this one is an exception. There's nothing "clone/copy" over having 3 trees just because another popular just happend to have it, you just happend to notice it because it seems wow was the first time you ever saw that part, yet it wasn't even the first time it had been used, thus you rushed to that conclusion it seems.
Anyway this is a nice thing, i don't care about the stat point part in the end, as long the gameplay, fun, excitment, and other advances were still to be found.
I want to advance my char through investing time on each place there could be put a new thing, a new decoration of war and hunt, some proof of a great adventure, and most of all, being a freaking nice time playing this game, hopefully soon too. both pvp and pve wise.
ur right about the 3 trees, people don't realize that really, if you where a barbarian in that time period you would not have 10 different ways of fighting, u pick up a sword and cut stuff, thats it. The fact is that in a game, it it important to have classes that ARE USEFUL, not 6 classes for the sack of saying, "hey look at use, we have more classes!"
Star Wars Galaxies was a good example where you had to many choices and you had classes that noo ne needed, so then people cry they don;t work (because they don;t) and then the Devs Nurf everything to "Balance the game" when the game doesn;t need balancing, they need to get rid of the pointless classes.
This is a classic case of people wanting to hate something that is popular so they can be in that "cool group" of people who don;t like the things that are "in"
Hate on WoW if you want, but the reason people are taking things from that is becaue alot of people liked those features. They are taking the things that worked and are adding New things that WoW does not have, which could make the game Alot better then WoW, and you forget that thins game will have Non-Combat items for Role-Playing, that is not a feature aimed at casual gamers or children, that is proff that the development team understands and respect the the "old school" or "hardcore gamer" that wants something more then mindless combat.
But enough of this, I hope the nit pickers don't show up, frankly I wouldn't want to play with u anyway. As for the supporters, I will post my name here when i get my copy. later
Its more of a feel of restriction vs freedom that people disprove of. I don't like it to much either that there allocated automaticlly. I prefer having full customization over my character to play him as I see fit, and what fits my mentality, then to pick and choose from a list.
Whats funny is, I notice people are screaming there doing it for balance sakes. While it may be simpler to balance, because after all, its a simplified system, there is still going to be plenty of unbalance in the class structure and customization of characters. Even the 3 tree's will be unbalanced between every class.
Funcom is indeed, taking what works best from previous MMO's, unfortuantly alot of that consist of simplicity.
Sad and needless to say, that when this game started in its development, it was planned to have dynamic class's without much feeling of restriction. after years of development, this game has reduced itself to a simple p/r/s system. The 3 tree's could very well also give a restricted system, just as WoW's did. Then again, perhaps it could give a more dynamic feel. Only way to know is to play the game and see for yourself.
Honestly, I'm not too worried about the fixed stats for characters. In the end, it's really just an illusion of choice; the only way it would actually be useful to pick stats is if skills and feats made use of these secondary stats the way that DnD does. Since I don't see that happening, there is no reason to pick stats that don't benefit the class that you have chosen.
On the other hand, I have heard that the different races will be the same other than looks and available classes. This is a little more disappointing; I would have liked to have seen a reason to choose a specific race for your character, even if the differences only applied to PvE (since I could see the flamewars already if one race was stronger than another in PvP).
Aren't some professions restricted by race though? That's a pretty thick line in the sand if I understand that right, makes for a little more of a determined choice then attribute selection.
Originally posted by BadChef Aren't some professions restricted by race though? That's a pretty thick line in the sand if I understand that right, makes for a little more of a determined choice then attribute selection.
That is accurate.
There are certain race/class restrictions in place.
If that´s truth, about the low customization of character, then AoC will suits me well only until W.A.R. comes to the shells... Cant stick with dumb games... But it was prophetized , when AoC said it was also launched to console... They have to tumb it down for the kids... Really disapointing... Any adult game which I can put my hopes on now? Do you guys know where I can bet now? (since I am getting out all bets on AoC)...
If that´s truth, about the low customization of character, then AoC will suits me well only until W.A.R. comes to the shells... Cant stick with dumb games... But it was prophetized , when AoC said it was also launched to console... They have to tumb it down for the kids... Really disapointing... Any adult game which I can put my hopes on now? Do you guys know where I can bet now? (since I am getting out all bets on AoC)...
Hehe i presume you mean mmorpg. Otherwise there is quite the number of adult games i can point you to
(and no, trpple x in my nickname has nothing to do with it)
Jokes aside. I do hope that console part is not going to hurt AoC since that is certainly alarming to some extent. But i can't see how could it hurt the character development.
If that´s truth, about the low customization of character, then AoC will suits me well only until W.A.R. comes to the shells... Cant stick with dumb games... But it was prophetized , when AoC said it was also launched to console... They have to tumb it down for the kids... Really disapointing... Any adult game which I can put my hopes on now? Do you guys know where I can bet now? (since I am getting out all bets on AoC)...
Hehe i presume you mean mmorpg. Otherwise there is quite the number of adult games i can point you to
(and no, trpple x in my nickname has nothing to do with it)
Jokes aside. I do hope that console part is not going to hurt AoC since that is certainly alarming to some extent. But i can't see how could it hurt the character development.
hehehe.. My fault, havent noticed that the ´adult game´ would mean other thing also...
About the console thing, it worries me not for the console itself, but the idea behind it. Every game which is launched to console it is also thumbed down. I do remember a (in)famous letter of one big shot of the gaming industry, in which she stated that the people (kids, I think) do not like to read too much, that they do prefer simpler games... Something very near the idea of ´they want the illusion of freedon, not the freedom itself´... (something about being Uncle Owen and not being Luke Skywalker). This is the thought of the industry on the console level... Right or wrong, everytime that I see a good game, intelligent and complex being launched also to console I get myself worried.. A lot...
Aren't some professions restricted by race though? That's a pretty thick line in the sand if I understand that right, makes for a little more of a determined choice then attribute selection.
Yes, every race can't take every class. These class restrictions will affect the population of a race within the game, but this won't really affect an individual character. Say you want a barbarian and can choose either a Cimmerian or Aquilonian, what reason is there to pick one or the other? The fact that they are the exact same means the choice is arbitrary. There should be something other than aesthetics different about them.
IMHO, they really dropped the ball on this. With only 3 races instead of a larger number, it should have been even more of a reason to make them well developed. I would much rather see 3 well developed races with differences beyond a +x /-y here and there than a dozen haphazard races (I'm looking at you DnD with all your elves). It is also a lot easier to balance differences between 3 races than a larger number.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Droch
Originally posted by BadChef
Aren't some professions restricted by race though? That's a pretty thick line in the sand if I understand that right, makes for a little more of a determined choice then attribute selection.
Yes, every race can't take every class. These class restrictions will affect the population of a race within the game, but this won't really affect an individual character. Say you want a barbarian and can choose either a Cimmerian or Aquilonian, what reason is there to pick one or the other? The fact that they are the exact same means the choice is arbitrary. There should be something other than aesthetics different about them.
IMHO, they really dropped the ball on this. With only 3 races instead of a larger number, it should have been even more of a reason to make them well developed. I would much rather see 3 well developed races than a dozen haphazard races (I'm looking at you DnD with all your elves). It is also a lot easier to balance differences between 3 races than a larger number.
I think that the 3 races are very diverse and different enough from each other. With the destiny quest your race has an effect, so the difference between and Aquilonian and a Cimmerian Barbarian (race to class is final yet) is that yes they will have the same skills / feats but they way the world reacts to them will be different, so you have the option of personal preferance. Would you like to be treated like a Cimmerian or an Aquilonian? will there be options to behave like a Cimmerian or Aquilonian in your day to day buisness? I agree in some ways it is easier to balance 3 races, but the classes available to each as it stands is quite different, with gear restrictions to different classes from different races, makes more of a challenge for balancing.
I know that complex systems can create some ridiculously overpowered characters - hell, the GURPS group I used to play with got good at it (dump all your points into IQ and DX, get the Eidetic Memory advantage and you've taken some good steps forward).
However, simple systems can also easily create overpowered characters. I can't think of an MMORPG-style game that doesn't have an overpowered class or classes that outstrip others in terms of power. The entire class / level character development system, with each class having a unique set of abilities, ends up promoting nothing but power differentials, especially in games where combat is the primary means of character progression.
It's a hard thing to balance. I certainly don't think players need pure maths degrees before they can even begin to understand their charactes, but I wish to god MMOGs got past the lvl / class system. A skill / power tree system could be interesting, but only if you could also tweak those powers to some extent - maybe the tree would provide the basic power attributes, but the player could play around with them to some extent.
The problem I've got with skill trees is that they are often so fixed and often very arbitary - you have to invest something in a skill / power you'd never use in order to get another power that is actually useful.
In many ways, I've love to see powers built like costumes are in CoH/V - you can play around with the attributes of a power, but the more that power does the more expensive it becomes.
SWG originally did have an interesting tree system. You had some base professions - Marksman, Brawler, Medic, Entertainer, and Scout - each with four tiers of four and a Master box at the top. You would buy the base Novice level in your chosen profession(s), then go out and play.
A Medic would craft stim packs and heal others to level themselves, entertainers would dance, play music, or change characters' appearances to level theirs, scouts would harvest from killed beasts and set up camps outside cities, and so on.
I thought it was kinda disappointing myself. But then again, I can't knock it till I tried it. I do not think it is fair ot compare to WoW or anything else until you play it and know for sure how it functions. I agree however that it sounds to be very similar to the dumbed down crap that we see out there already. But who knows...it might be alright.
I once had an entire party of bloody halflings run up to me in EQ and start laughing, booing and insulting me because I played a Dark Elf Shadowknight (The weakest SK race, apparantly). People like that should hang...by their B***s.....in piano wire....on the town square. Gaming is about fun. If you can't have fun without a statistically superior/maximized character, you've forgotten the point. I'm not saying people shouldn't strive for good stats, but when it gets to the point that you can't be in a guild or team because you have a build that's infinitesimally weaker, that's just silly.
I think the character development system i AoC is sufficient, if not the most innovative, to have a fun experience.
Comments
well, that kind of sux. the cool thing about develping a character is the fact that you can make it unique. Looks, voices are cool to change around, but attributes, alternate advancement, talent points, all that stuff is what actually helps us to make a unique char, different from everyone else's.
I hope this makes sense, its freaking 4 am here and i need to go to bed...
The illusion of customization mentioned comes from the fact that game may have for example only 2 out of 6 stats that are vital to your class. Now if you level you will most certainly distribute points among those 2 stats. Yes you may add some points elsewhere if it helps you along the way, for example, in solo play(if you solo at all). If you spread out too much, you get a "gimped" character that is less capable than others that stick to 2 stats rule. Meaning mostly players with that class will tend to put 2 points in only those stats. Where is the illusion part ? Well you have 6 stats, but you are only playing with 2 stats. Unless game is very stats oriented (RO anyone ?). Good question would be: "Why not make 5 stats vital ? At least to some extent ?". I can hear 50% developers going "too much hassle". Btw for me a good example of character customization is "Elder Scrolls". I really would like to see more of that in mmorpgs (with a bit of realism toned down).
you know when you download a program and you have the option of "recommended" and "custom"?
maybe it should be like that
of course for AoC its too late (most people aren't willing to wait through another delay) - im not
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
I understand. You feel that you are willing to know as much as can be known in order to create the best character possible and you should be rewarded for that. And the less you need to know the more you feel that your willingness to know is gone to waste.
And so the more any scrub can come off the street with no knowledge or care about the game and perform at your level the more pissed off you get.
You want reality - strong survive the weak die.
Unfortunately for you, corporations don't want that. As long as they're getting the same amount from you and the peon you're both considered equal.
So there you are 6'11'' with your dunkin and jump shots and you're put into a type of basketball game that gives migits just as much of an ability to perform as you. Your abilities dont give you much of an advantage, the only thing that matters is how much time you're willing to dedicate. Its an attempt to make life fair for the migit at the expense of your skills.
So consider the easier-to-understand actions taken by Funcom as affirmative action. Affirmative action for noobs.
--edit
whether this fact makes you more understanding of funcom or more distasteful towards AA, im glad
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
The problem I have with this statement -- and it's often overlooked in the rose-colored looking glass -- is that while players take great pride in developing a character from scratch and making it as unique as possible through skill-based leveling, the giant fallback is that many players following this route will become obsolete over time, in the game.
What winds up happening is that players form strategies for maximizing strength and minimizing weaknesses -- effectively exploiting the skill system's core weaknesses. A great example here is Asheron's Call, which had perfected the system set in place by Ultima Online.
In AC1, you are given the ability to select and specialize in a number of skills (devised from a base number of skill points at character creation) and can train additional skills as you level up, since more skill points are awarded. Skills are raised through use of item/skill and can be raised manually by spending experience points to speed the process up. There are a good variety of skills ranging from combat to combat support (item and life magic, and healing) and even non-combat augmentation (such as cooking and alchemy).
It all sounds good on paper, but once the max-min folks come into play, they start lopsiding the balance of the game. While everyone could reach the same potential power, they reach it at different times -- so that guy who specialized in 100% combat has a definitive edge over the guy who spec'd even a little bit half-assed.
Again, it still sounds good -- except when it applies to PvE, and the XP grind suddenly gets very quick for certain templates due to some outrageous advantages. They shoot up in level and need to be countered, else they wind up destroying the game balance and possibly the economy in the process (if certain monsters drop good loot and are very easy for these overpowered players to kill).
What ultimately winds up happening in these cases is that players follow suit to keep themselves competitive in the game, even if they're not PvPing. This action is called templating and actually winds up turning a skill-based game into (ironically enough) a class-based game.
Speaking empirically, I knew a few people that loved AC1 very much, and played "gimped" templates the whole way through. One memorable template specialized in sword and war magic. These folks played for months but encountered a total and complete burnout once they realized the actual viability of their chosen profession, only to have that gap widened by corrections in balance to counter the overpowered folks. Essentially, these players had been punished for enjoying the game their way rather than exploiting the system.
Until someone comes out with a fool proof skill based system protected against templating -- and that it isn't easy to do, if it is even possible -- then level and class based scaling systems will be around for a while yet.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
xPaladin, I completely agree with your post & would like to add that I personally do not think that it is possible to balance a skill based game with unique skills.
Even UO had balance issues. Anyone remember how powerful tamers were after T2A? And how many people took up this all but forgotten skill that was left for the horse wranglers and turned it into the most powerful PvP weapon in the game?
There were all kinds of templates in UO. Even though there were a ton of skills that you could choose from, you basically chose a template & raised the skills associated with that template, forgetting the rest.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It seems like alot of "Old School/Mature/Or Hardcore Gamers" here just love to hate games. Many of you are talking about how stupid the game will be when they havn't played it yet and actully your not taking the whole game into account, you are nit picking a small aspect and trashing it.
I think most people crying about not being able to pick there stats are the people who exploit the number system of stats to OWN everyone else, this isn't customizing ur charceter to make them real, you are just doing the math and picking the best set up, which leds to less intelegent people doing to a website and copying the template and then you have everyone only playing the BEST class, not the class that represents you.
When it come down to is 1 plus 1 equals 2, and letting people toy with all the number variables will always lead to a 1337 formula that unblances the game.
And people who say this is a WoW, must just love to hate games, or can;t read. AoC has manu features that are nothing like WoW, the entire player run city system, a crafting system that is worth wild, not to mention items used for Role Playing, do u "Old School" gamers rememeber that? I do, and I'm not a fossile. I like buying items for my house and acting out my charecter, not MAXIMIZING my stats to beat everyone up.
but i guess us Young and imature gamers who enjoy a well written story and hate geeks that having nothing to better to do then play with there calculators all day so they can call them selves cool things like "Hardcore Gamer" lol, thats like calling urself a "Extreme Computer Programmer" just play the game or move on
not once was the reason for me wanting and waiting for AoC, the stat point custom part. And i trully hope those who sounds so seriously of this aren't going to back out just because of that small unimportant part, else they are really stupid.
The reason for this game, for me atleast, is the gameplay, the lore, the feel of getting to play this (hopefully) vivid and alive game, with alot of options to make your char look or feel a special way, the pvp'in, the group'in, the class co-op, and adventures and hopefully very amazing places to visit and do all kinds of nice feats.
The stat points part were in the end almost always the same, by logical choice many people would in any case just follow the same path with marginal difference anyway, the automated stat points part is nothing more than a burden being put aside , so you can focus on all the important things in this game, being how you handle your weapons and combo the abilities properly, the talent/skill trees, gameplay, adventuring with your friends, and how to execute a pvp well enough.
Also the lunatic jabbing about wow clone just because of "3 talent/skill trees" is quite stupid to say the least, this is not the first time nor will it ever be the last time, the number 3 of this kind of "talent trees" are simply a logical way to make it seem like having different paths to choose and 3 is never too many nor too few, it's the magical number for many things and this one is an exception. There's nothing "clone/copy" over having 3 trees just because another popular just happend to have it, you just happend to notice it because it seems wow was the first time you ever saw that part, yet it wasn't even the first time it had been used, thus you rushed to that conclusion it seems.
Anyway this is a nice thing, i don't care about the stat point part in the end, as long the gameplay, fun, excitment, and other advances were still to be found.
I want to advance my char through investing time on each place there could be put a new thing, a new decoration of war and hunt, some proof of a great adventure, and most of all, being a freaking nice time playing this game, hopefully soon too. both pvp and pve wise.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
ur right about the 3 trees, people don't realize that really, if you where a barbarian in that time period you would not have 10 different ways of fighting, u pick up a sword and cut stuff, thats it. The fact is that in a game, it it important to have classes that ARE USEFUL, not 6 classes for the sack of saying, "hey look at use, we have more classes!"
Star Wars Galaxies was a good example where you had to many choices and you had classes that noo ne needed, so then people cry they don;t work (because they don;t) and then the Devs Nurf everything to "Balance the game" when the game doesn;t need balancing, they need to get rid of the pointless classes.
This is a classic case of people wanting to hate something that is popular so they can be in that "cool group" of people who don;t like the things that are "in"
Hate on WoW if you want, but the reason people are taking things from that is becaue alot of people liked those features. They are taking the things that worked and are adding New things that WoW does not have, which could make the game Alot better then WoW, and you forget that thins game will have Non-Combat items for Role-Playing, that is not a feature aimed at casual gamers or children, that is proff that the development team understands and respect the the "old school" or "hardcore gamer" that wants something more then mindless combat.
But enough of this, I hope the nit pickers don't show up, frankly I wouldn't want to play with u anyway. As for the supporters, I will post my name here when i get my copy. later
Its more of a feel of restriction vs freedom that people disprove of. I don't like it to much either that there allocated automaticlly. I prefer having full customization over my character to play him as I see fit, and what fits my mentality, then to pick and choose from a list.
Whats funny is, I notice people are screaming there doing it for balance sakes. While it may be simpler to balance, because after all, its a simplified system, there is still going to be plenty of unbalance in the class structure and customization of characters. Even the 3 tree's will be unbalanced between every class.
Funcom is indeed, taking what works best from previous MMO's, unfortuantly alot of that consist of simplicity.
Sad and needless to say, that when this game started in its development, it was planned to have dynamic class's without much feeling of restriction. after years of development, this game has reduced itself to a simple p/r/s system. The 3 tree's could very well also give a restricted system, just as WoW's did. Then again, perhaps it could give a more dynamic feel. Only way to know is to play the game and see for yourself.
Honestly, I'm not too worried about the fixed stats for characters. In the end, it's really just an illusion of choice; the only way it would actually be useful to pick stats is if skills and feats made use of these secondary stats the way that DnD does. Since I don't see that happening, there is no reason to pick stats that don't benefit the class that you have chosen.
On the other hand, I have heard that the different races will be the same other than looks and available classes. This is a little more disappointing; I would have liked to have seen a reason to choose a specific race for your character, even if the differences only applied to PvE (since I could see the flamewars already if one race was stronger than another in PvP).
Aren't some professions restricted by race though? That's a pretty thick line in the sand if I understand that right, makes for a little more of a determined choice then attribute selection.
Never give up and never surrender!
That is accurate.
There are certain race/class restrictions in place.
If that´s truth, about the low customization of character, then AoC will suits me well only until W.A.R. comes to the shells... Cant stick with dumb games... But it was prophetized , when AoC said it was also launched to console... They have to tumb it down for the kids... Really disapointing... Any adult game which I can put my hopes on now? Do you guys know where I can bet now? (since I am getting out all bets on AoC)...
Hehe i presume you mean mmorpg. Otherwise there is quite the number of adult games i can point you to
(and no, trpple x in my nickname has nothing to do with it)
Jokes aside. I do hope that console part is not going to hurt AoC since that is certainly alarming to some extent. But i can't see how could it hurt the character development.
Hehe i presume you mean mmorpg. Otherwise there is quite the number of adult games i can point you to
(and no, trpple x in my nickname has nothing to do with it)
Jokes aside. I do hope that console part is not going to hurt AoC since that is certainly alarming to some extent. But i can't see how could it hurt the character development.
hehehe.. My fault, havent noticed that the ´adult game´ would mean other thing also...
About the console thing, it worries me not for the console itself, but the idea behind it. Every game which is launched to console it is also thumbed down. I do remember a (in)famous letter of one big shot of the gaming industry, in which she stated that the people (kids, I think) do not like to read too much, that they do prefer simpler games... Something very near the idea of ´they want the illusion of freedon, not the freedom itself´... (something about being Uncle Owen and not being Luke Skywalker). This is the thought of the industry on the console level... Right or wrong, everytime that I see a good game, intelligent and complex being launched also to console I get myself worried.. A lot...
Yes, every race can't take every class. These class restrictions will affect the population of a race within the game, but this won't really affect an individual character. Say you want a barbarian and can choose either a Cimmerian or Aquilonian, what reason is there to pick one or the other? The fact that they are the exact same means the choice is arbitrary. There should be something other than aesthetics different about them.
IMHO, they really dropped the ball on this. With only 3 races instead of a larger number, it should have been even more of a reason to make them well developed. I would much rather see 3 well developed races with differences beyond a +x /-y here and there than a dozen haphazard races (I'm looking at you DnD with all your elves). It is also a lot easier to balance differences between 3 races than a larger number.
Yes, every race can't take every class. These class restrictions will affect the population of a race within the game, but this won't really affect an individual character. Say you want a barbarian and can choose either a Cimmerian or Aquilonian, what reason is there to pick one or the other? The fact that they are the exact same means the choice is arbitrary. There should be something other than aesthetics different about them.
IMHO, they really dropped the ball on this. With only 3 races instead of a larger number, it should have been even more of a reason to make them well developed. I would much rather see 3 well developed races than a dozen haphazard races (I'm looking at you DnD with all your elves). It is also a lot easier to balance differences between 3 races than a larger number.
I think that the 3 races are very diverse and different enough from each other. With the destiny quest your race has an effect, so the difference between and Aquilonian and a Cimmerian Barbarian (race to class is final yet) is that yes they will have the same skills / feats but they way the world reacts to them will be different, so you have the option of personal preferance. Would you like to be treated like a Cimmerian or an Aquilonian? will there be options to behave like a Cimmerian or Aquilonian in your day to day buisness? I agree in some ways it is easier to balance 3 races, but the classes available to each as it stands is quite different, with gear restrictions to different classes from different races, makes more of a challenge for balancing.
Guess I don't need a new rig now.....
I know that complex systems can create some ridiculously overpowered characters - hell, the GURPS group I used to play with got good at it (dump all your points into IQ and DX, get the Eidetic Memory advantage and you've taken some good steps forward).
However, simple systems can also easily create overpowered characters. I can't think of an MMORPG-style game that doesn't have an overpowered class or classes that outstrip others in terms of power. The entire class / level character development system, with each class having a unique set of abilities, ends up promoting nothing but power differentials, especially in games where combat is the primary means of character progression.
It's a hard thing to balance. I certainly don't think players need pure maths degrees before they can even begin to understand their charactes, but I wish to god MMOGs got past the lvl / class system. A skill / power tree system could be interesting, but only if you could also tweak those powers to some extent - maybe the tree would provide the basic power attributes, but the player could play around with them to some extent.
The problem I've got with skill trees is that they are often so fixed and often very arbitary - you have to invest something in a skill / power you'd never use in order to get another power that is actually useful.
In many ways, I've love to see powers built like costumes are in CoH/V - you can play around with the attributes of a power, but the more that power does the more expensive it becomes.
SWG originally did have an interesting tree system. You had some base professions - Marksman, Brawler, Medic, Entertainer, and Scout - each with four tiers of four and a Master box at the top. You would buy the base Novice level in your chosen profession(s), then go out and play.
A Medic would craft stim packs and heal others to level themselves, entertainers would dance, play music, or change characters' appearances to level theirs, scouts would harvest from killed beasts and set up camps outside cities, and so on.
Funcom never went for unique. Imagine the toons talking together:
"OMG, you are an escaped galley slave as well ?!!! What are the odds for that happening ?!!!"
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
I thought it was kinda disappointing myself. But then again, I can't knock it till I tried it. I do not think it is fair ot compare to WoW or anything else until you play it and know for sure how it functions. I agree however that it sounds to be very similar to the dumbed down crap that we see out there already. But who knows...it might be alright.
After reading this, i think warhammer is starting to look much better
I once had an entire party of bloody halflings run up to me in EQ and start laughing, booing and insulting me because I played a Dark Elf Shadowknight (The weakest SK race, apparantly). People like that should hang...by their B***s.....in piano wire....on the town square. Gaming is about fun. If you can't have fun without a statistically superior/maximized character, you've forgotten the point. I'm not saying people shouldn't strive for good stats, but when it gets to the point that you can't be in a guild or team because you have a build that's infinitesimally weaker, that's just silly.
I think the character development system i AoC is sufficient, if not the most innovative, to have a fun experience.