I think the answer is as simple as this, Reward the player for doing the things that they enjoy.
If the player likes to heal people, give them xp for it. If the player likes to kill people, give them xp for it. If the player likes to craft items, give them xp for it. If the player likes to kill mobs endlessly, give them xp for it. If the player likes to quest, give them xp for it.
Basically an mmorpg should be open to several options for gaining xp, currency, and equipment. Why pay to play a game that forces you to spend countless hours doing what you dont enjoy doing just to enjoy a portion of your time playing the game. We pay to play, give us what we want or we wont pay...
EXACTLY! Don't just give XP for killing mobs or completing quests. Gheez, i can't believe devs are still doing the same old crap. I guess they justify it by putting 'twists' in the game but its still the same damn game. I hate this level advancement by quest BS that all the MMOs do. I want freedom and I don't want to spend hours doing the same old shit to get gear or any of that BS. I don't see why MMOs haven't changed at all. I fell in love with MMOs when I first played UO about 8 or 9 years ago but all the MMOs nowadays are so much different than what UO used to be its disgusting. NO imagination, NO creativity just the same old crap piled on top of crap with a side of something the devs think is innovative but really is just a distraction from their crap piled on crap. Very dissapointing... Its not like this is some ingenious idea either. People like you and me can think of this why can't any devs? And if the devs have the ideas why don't any publishers go with it? This isn't any radical thinking that only appeals to a small portion of MMO players. It makes no sense to keep coming out with the same old MMO in a different setting...why can't people get this through their heads?!?!?!?
I think the answer is as simple as this, Reward the player for doing the things that they enjoy.
If the player likes to heal people, give them xp for it. If the player likes to kill people, give them xp for it. If the player likes to craft items, give them xp for it. If the player likes to kill mobs endlessly, give them xp for it. If the player likes to quest, give them xp for it.
Basically an mmorpg should be open to several options for gaining xp, currency, and equipment. Why pay to play a game that forces you to spend countless hours doing what you dont enjoy doing just to enjoy a portion of your time playing the game. We pay to play, give us what we want or we wont pay...
EXACTLY! Don't just give XP for killing mobs or completing quests. Gheez, i can't believe devs are still doing the same old crap. I guess they justify it by putting 'twists' in the game but its still the same damn game. I hate this level advancement by quest BS that all the MMOs do. I want freedom and I don't want to spend hours doing the same old shit to get gear or any of that BS. I don't see why MMOs haven't changed at all. I fell in love with MMOs when I first played UO about 8 or 9 years ago but all the MMOs nowadays are so much different than what UO used to be its disgusting. NO imagination, NO creativity just the same old crap piled on top of crap with a side of something the devs think is innovative but really is just a distraction from their crap piled on crap. Very dissapointing... Its not like this is some ingenious idea either. People like you and me can think of this why can't any devs? And if the devs have the ideas why don't any publishers go with it? This isn't any radical thinking that only appeals to a small portion of MMO players. It makes no sense to keep coming out with the same old MMO in a different setting...why can't people get this through their heads?!?!?!?
PS I too love the concepts behind Darkfall
Well, yes and no.
Sure, a guy who likes killing mobs endlessly should get Xp and a crafter who find the best resources to make the bet items should get Xp. But it doesn't make sense for a mob-killing player to become a better crafter because of all the Xp he ground killing durnis or for a crafter to become a better killer because he made the best food and drink available.
Pre-CU SWG had the best system - different kinds of Xp. So an excellent killer got, basically, combat Xp he could spend on becoming better at fighting and defence while an excellent crafter got crfting Xp he could spend on experimentation, harvesting, production etc. Ultimately both could become 'uber' but in different sectors of the game.
I think the answer is as simple as this, Reward the player for doing the things that they enjoy.
If the player likes to heal people, give them xp for it. If the player likes to kill people, give them xp for it. If the player likes to craft items, give them xp for it. If the player likes to kill mobs endlessly, give them xp for it. If the player likes to quest, give them xp for it.
Basically an mmorpg should be open to several options for gaining xp, currency, and equipment. Why pay to play a game that forces you to spend countless hours doing what you dont enjoy doing just to enjoy a portion of your time playing the game. We pay to play, give us what we want or we wont pay...
EXACTLY! Don't just give XP for killing mobs or completing quests. Gheez, i can't believe devs are still doing the same old crap. I guess they justify it by putting 'twists' in the game but its still the same damn game. I hate this level advancement by quest BS that all the MMOs do. I want freedom and I don't want to spend hours doing the same old shit to get gear or any of that BS. I don't see why MMOs haven't changed at all. I fell in love with MMOs when I first played UO about 8 or 9 years ago but all the MMOs nowadays are so much different than what UO used to be its disgusting. NO imagination, NO creativity just the same old crap piled on top of crap with a side of something the devs think is innovative but really is just a distraction from their crap piled on crap. Very dissapointing... Its not like this is some ingenious idea either. People like you and me can think of this why can't any devs? And if the devs have the ideas why don't any publishers go with it? This isn't any radical thinking that only appeals to a small portion of MMO players. It makes no sense to keep coming out with the same old MMO in a different setting...why can't people get this through their heads?!?!?!?
PS I too love the concepts behind Darkfall
Well, yes and no.
Sure, a guy who likes killing mobs endlessly should get Xp and a crafter who find the best resources to make the bet items should get Xp. But it doesn't make sense for a mob-killing player to become a better crafter because of all the Xp he ground killing durnis or for a crafter to become a better killer because he made the best food and drink available.
Pre-CU SWG had the best system - different kinds of Xp. So an excellent killer got, basically, combat Xp he could spend on becoming better at fighting and defence while an excellent crafter got crfting Xp he could spend on experimentation, harvesting, production etc. Ultimately both could become 'uber' but in different sectors of the game.
Ya, I should have been more clear. I just had the idea inside my head of a skill based game instead of a level based game. So someone using a skill would gain XP for that skill. If a crafter were making armor then his blacksmithing skill might increase, not his overall XP as I don't like the idea of having an overall XP rating, like levels. This is what old UO was like and I miss it, advancement through use of a skill and complete freedom, no level restrictions, no having to run for 15 minutes to get to a certain location, no waiting to get the best gear to compete in PvP. PvP was based upon player skill
It seems to me we've started off with more discussion on concepts than gameplay elements or ideas. Here's what I've gathered - Playing most MMOGs would have you grinding. "Grind" itself though, can be 1) a game's drive for your character to reach an endgame where a higher level (experience points acquired) character can have better gameplay and access to content etc. 2) the mindset of players who do this merely to reach the endgame for their character (even if the game generally is a grindfest), instead of trying more to experience other features as they go along. So to rid of such a "grind" concept could possibly mean more than one approach. But, the main thing that differentiates such MMOGs are its contents (amount and uses), and that it actually affects a player's view of themselves grinding. My thoughts on this, adding to I've mentioned before, would be
more options & paths to an endgame as you progress, you'd be compelled to experience different stages of the game before you move on as that experience may not be better when you've acquired much more exp points importance of not just one priority or a best priority to gameplay (balancing)
Correct, add and debate to what I've said as you please... ps. Thanks for all comments so far
In my opinion, you cannot avoid grinding in current online games, so you have to discuss new concepts to get around it. No small element of current MMOGs are the cause for grinding, but the entire game design itself. I may tire faster than the average player, but having slaughtered my 120th Giant Rat, I want to do something else. In most games, you can move to a different area and fight maybe Goblins or Dragonflies, but they're just Giant Rats in a different outfit. Boring.
Then you can progress by doing quests, which requires you to most often kill these same rats again, but gives you a slight exp bonus and some monetary reward. Rinse and repeat for the next 3 real life months and maybe fight some other players or raid their cities. Boring real fast too.
Whenever I cannot progress in other ways than the one pointed out by developers, to me that is very much a grind. Basically all the MMOGs I've played has forced me to be in a particular area at my current level because I'd either not get any (or much) exp from killing lower level mobs or get killed because mobs are too powerful, thereby FORCING me to stay in that little area which suits my level. I want to play with my friends but if they're lower than my level, I don't get anything from joining them (and gameplay isn't fun, so I don't get that either) and if they're higher than my level, they have to babysit me to avoid me getting killed. No fun. A wolf is a wolf whether I have 3 years of combat training or 3 days.
This endgame concept puzzles me. You spent time going through levels to get to a point where you cannot go further and everyone will be the same level. Why have that at all? Why have levels at all? Why have different paths to this endgame if it doesn't matter? It's merely a roadblock for players who obviously race ahead to reach the level cap. That is stupid, repetitive, redundant and boring.
Bottom line is: To avoid grinding, get rid of levels, exp, level requirements on gear, endgame and skill points and start from a clean slate. Well, in my opinion anyway.
There's a few MMOs that have strayed from this norm but it is still the trend and main component of most games. I don't think it'll go away very soon and that there will always be these types of games.
So my question is what alternatives can you think of for this?
While I appreciate the intention of your post, the assumption is a bit flawed. Most modern MMOs are trending AWAY from grinding. WoW, CoX, LOTRO, EVE, and WWIIO all steer you toward quest/missions rather than grinding MOBS. When I play these games, I rarely notice that I'm leveling let alone grinding.
Grinding WILL go away, and is going away as soon as the ancient games that still have it either die off or change over. I'll be very surprised if AoC or WAR have grinding in them. People are done with it.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I just wanted to comment on this post. There's some stuff in here that's based on popular misconceptions, and I felt maybe I could explain some stuff that might make it a little more.. well.. understandable.
Please understand that this is in no way an attack against the original post or it's author, it's merely that a lot of what was said in it I agreed with.. until I went.. oh.. wait a sec..
Aphexdk, posted on 11/29/07 5:12:26 PM :
I too would love a game with a persistent world, where MY actions make a difference and my impact on the world is there for others to see.
I agree that this would be cool, but you're kind of approaching it from a "me" perspective, rather than an "all of us" persepective. If a game has 200+ servers with 2000 people on each server, (at any given moment.. not an example of the entire membership of the mmorpg), it's difficult to imagine the scale of what you're suggesting. Imagine if you had even like.. say, a headstone, that persisted on all servers. Would your monument feel impressive when lined-up next to 400,000 other headstones? What if you walked all the way across a field of 632 x 635 stones trying to find yours..
MIchigan stadium holds 10,501 people in it, it's the US's largest football stadium, so line-up 38 or so of those, and find the needle in the haystack.
If you can do something, everyone is able to as well. Now, in theory, a system that locks players to specific servers could do like 200 persistant monuments, that would basically keep that monument on that server. That's not impossible, but tricky, and probably not worth the effort to some degree.
I can't stand levels and their importance in games. If some guy has had some time to train combat and using a sword, naturally he'd be more effective in combat than me without any experience, but no way can he survive 10-20 hits from my sword and then kill me in a single stab with a dagger.
I am currently taking longsword classes in real life, and ocassionally we switch-over to German dagger wrestling to "mix-it-up". Someone who's seriously trained with a weapon can perform amazing feats with it, ESPECIALLY against someone who's not familiar with the specifics of the weapon being carried. I, myself, was beaten silly by a friend who was not only really good with a dagger, but was also trained against the longsword. There was literally nothing I could throw at him that he didn't already know how to defend himself against. He blocked, parried, and disarmed me several times with all kinds of bruising attacks that I simply couldn't counter. In real life, that's how skill works.. if they're that good, you just can't get hit #1 on them, but in game terms, you'd probably hate combat that included folks simply not landing any hits on each other.
It wasn't a weapon advantage, it was using his skill and experience against mine, and I came-up short. In longswords we were easily a match for each other, but I'd never fought against a guy who was armed with a dagger before.
It would be far more exciting and realistic to have all players roughly equally able to do harm, but the more experienced fighter will naturally be better at blocking, avoiding and lining up for a counter attack.
Yeah, that's kinda "it", but true combat with knowledgable combatants isn't equal unless a person has trained in defense against the weapon in-question. You can learn a lot of strikes, defensive moves and counter-attacks but if you can't recognize an opening, or incoming attack because you don't know the opponent's style, you're useless. So perhaps it'd be better to reward experience the same way? Or is that just too technical and too realiastic to be interesting... there's always the balance of saying, hey.. this isn't real life, I just want it to be fun for the newbie and the expert.
Just like a structural engineer would be able to design a safer, more durable building than your average person would.
That's scary thinking.. part of the reason engineers exist and building codes, etc, is because making a building that isn't actually dangerous to it's inhabitants is a skill that must be learned. They use building codes, life safety codes, etc, to make buildings safe, and licensed Engineers are where they are because they have proven that they understand all kinds of stuff that's involved with selecting materials and meeting code requirements, etc.
I've worked in engineering offices for half my life, and lemme' just say.. I'd never suggest that I could build a building without research of some kind.. not even an outhouse. That's even pretending that the building codes and stuff wouldn't apply to it.
Get rid of the standard EXP system and give people added abilities in the task they perform often. A person building a large farm house and barn on his/her own would naturally learn many tricks for making their work easier, faster and better. A hunter who spends a large amount of time each day hunting will pick up some tricks for finding their prey faster and learn how to get close enough to avoid scaring them away.
You say get rid of the XP system, but then go on to describe perfect examples of how the XP system is used by most decent gamesystems. as you gain in xp, new abilities become unlocked, and it also becomes easier, or quicker to do the task involved. You simply become more experienced in the task and related tasks. Kinda' like if you draw a lot of pencil drawings, it might make you a better artist, and you become one of the lucky few that can do amazing things with it. However, in an MMO, everyone can become a worldclass artist with the right amount of art "grinding" first. Kinda like real life.
And why would anyone need to be a certain level to use their new, shiny sword or armor? All swords are similar apart from size, so anyone should be able to use any weapon or helmet. You just hold it in your hand or put it on your head... not exactly rocket science.
Not so much.. I can use a longsword, and I've trained for years with it. If you handed me a single-handed sword, I'd be screwed. If I also had to use a shield with my other hand, I'd be twice as screwed.. or at least I'd be fighting at a MUCH lower level. Give me a shortsword and I'm liable to hurt myself.. the balance on any of these swordtypes is completely different, and the training drills for each is also completely different. Hand me a "greatsword" and I'd be an absolute idot with about a dozen pulled muscles in my neck and shoulders from trying to use it wrong. Helmets, are all different too. I've worn open faced helmets and loved 'em, but then tired-out a closed helm (a full head helmet with eyeslits) and absolutely hated it. It's a whole different beast. fighting while peering through eyeholes that seem too far away from your face is an absolute nightmare (unless you're used to it, I guess.. I hate it). I can't even imagine fighting a short little guy in one of those things.. I wouldn't be able to even FIND them, let alone use any of my "longsword prowess".. There's too much between me and my fighting zone.
Different armor weights and types can screw you up pretty good too.. I've worn aluminium, and stainless steel plate. I've also worn mail (chainmail to you D&D folks) in aluminum and stainless. There's the obvious differences of not moving as fast as you expect to because the armor is heavier, and getting tired faster, but there's other weird differences like with plate, it is an active part of your defense to take lesser hits with it, otherwise there's no point in using it at all. There's also differences to your balance, and you can't move the same way in each.
So, in the real world, you have to train in the armor you plan to wear, using the weapon you plan to use, at the weights and sizes you want to be good in.. otherwise, you're screwed if it messes with you at all (bulkiness, vision, weight, etc). In game terms, that might suck. I can imagine that most folks reading this have probably never really thought it might be like this. As a result, everyone would be like.. What the HECK! what kinda CRAP is this restriction?! My defense/attack and agility levels DROPPED because I got better armor!
Something to remember though is that RPG = fantasy, not real life, so it's fine to disregard real life fighting issues, but most folks seem to prefer thinking it's more realistic than it is. They HAVE to make stuff like better armors and stuff to strive to obtain because otherwise there's no point to having it. If just anyone could have it, why would anyone want anything less than that?
And no weapon is 4 times as powerful as one the same size and shape but 10 levels lower. It's merely boosted for the sake of making levels matter.
It'd be hard to really compare something like a well-made weapon to a poorly made weapon in terms of things like "4 times as powerful". I agree that a poorly made weapon should do the same amount of damage as a better one, but suggest that if you handed me a poorly-balanced longsword, I'd be less likely to score hits that do as much damage with it. However, having a better sword merely means that your actual skills can come to light easier. (kinda like playing a guitar, I guess) Here's the catch though.. A newbie that grabs a good sword isn't going to fight better than a newbie that grabs a junk sword. If the skill isn't there, it shouldn't come to light.. BUT.. that newbie should still be able to use the well-made sword, just without any bonuses for it.
Of course if we're talking about magical weapons.. then maybe it IS better like that, and helps guide you as you fight.. who knows?
If players are rewarded for doing just about anything in a game with hidden exp and dice rolls and no level system, I bet they would play - and possibly even enjoy - the game rather than playing the Excel spreadsheet or trying to reach level cap as fast as possible. Games should be FUN and EXCITING instead of boring and repetitive. Sadly, all current MMOs are really boring and all pretty much the same game in my opinion.
It's my opinion that players ruin the games.. If they can cheat, they will.. everyone wants a way to achieve whatever it is they're trying to achieve, if cheating is fast and easy, then some of the folks out there go for it. However, if they want to stay in-character, they don't want to cheat because it means getting out of the game itself and into game mechanics. THose game mechanics (excel stuff you mentioned) are things that can help a plaer that's beginnning to get bored with the grind, or just wants to PVP at the highest level possible, and isn't interested in the storyline. Hey.. the MMO was built for them too, to play the way they wanna play it.. if you don't like that, then don't play with them.
Aphexdk I guess the wording of "endgame" is debatable but there has to be a final stage of character development. I'll change it to this point -
more options & paths to the variety of different final stages of character development (that ties in with the world's needs and player's pleasures)
It wasn't so much the wording as the idea of having an upper level, where everybody will race to get to first, but eventually, everyone will reach it. It's rather pointless I think.
I think it is very much possible to get away from having a final stage of character progression, but the downside is that you can't compare yourself to other players without a level system - and I believe many gamers want to have others see how cool they are for reaching level 50 in just 2 weeks or whatever.
My suggestion for a solution is actually very much like real life, where you become better at certain tasks, but you can't put a number on it. For example, a fighter can continue to learn new moves and become faster and more alert during fights, which will give him/her an advantage, but not provide any numbers for DPS and not become invincible. A crafter who spends a lot of time making wooden homes or furniture will gain knowledge in woodworking to produce less waste from tree logs and learn to make more decorative items, but anyone should be able to make a simple chair from a wooden board given the proper tools.
The downside to this is the fact that this progression is hidden from the players, which may make some wonder what's happening, so perhaps some indicators or milestones with a sort of reward could be added, so they won't start wondering why they aren't getting a level-up. LOTRO has titles you can have floating over your head which is a nice little reward for farming pipeweed for hours on end. If the world is made so that the items you craft will be in demand, all your work will be for a reason unlike most current MMOGs where you craft and destroy for exp only.
My point is that this kind of system is open ended with no levels to cap or special content for each level. Instead of a high level monster, you could have several of them in a herd, but a seasoned and a new player should be almost equally capable of taking it on. If you find an awesome new piece of armor, you don't need to lug it around in your backpack for days because you need to gain two more levels to wear it and you shouldn't need to be a certain race to use a bow/axe or whatever, but maybe get a hidden penalty for using a longbow as a Dwarf due to the "vertical disadvantage".
I think EVE Online is the closest to my idea as it is not based on exp, but training for certain amounts of time in a single skill at a time, but at lower levels, the grinding in EVE is monetary and the travel times from my experience. I would have continued to play if I and my corporation could have made a bigger impact on the world, but a space station vanishes in the vastness of the game and makes no significant difference. I would like to see an MMOG where huge cities are popping up all around the game world solely due to player effort and cooperation. Continuous upgrades could have players engaged for a long time without it feeling like a grind if done correctly, while the warrior types could help man the walls to fend off NPC or enemy faction players attacking the city. It has been attempted in the past, but not well enough to be good.
Personally, I think I would enjoy the combat and exploration aspect very much too because I know I can't go into areas where my level is too low and get killed all the time and I can't go to places where I get no reward for fighting too low level mobs. And there is no rush to reach maximum level or keep up with your guild members because levels don't matter. That would be a nice system I believe.
I hate to double-post but in going through the posts made while I was writing that novel (sorry..) I realized something that really shouldn't be ignored..
Different strokes for different folks..
I notice a lot of posts condemning quests, and the various other things that designers try to force you to do. Although I can certainly agree that empty quests such as getting the 30 rat tails just to hand off to an NPC, are useless boring quests, I disagree that quests or designer "restrictions" are a bad thing. Basically RPG's are games where you enter a world as a different person other than yourself. In order to do this, most MMORPGs have a storyline, or several storlyines told through the quests.
It's how the world is experienced.. the designers want you to experience the world, not just the other players. Quests should take you to lots of different areas, and unusual situations, along with perhaps, a continuing storyline.
Part of the whole "putting higher level NPCS in teh woods nearby to keep you in an area" is a way to present you with an overcomable obstacle that you can develop your character's abilities to overcome.
If you don't like those aspects, don't bother with the quests, I guess, but they are the basic alternative to grinding, and provide immersement into the story and world, though participating with the things going on in that world.
It's kinda' like being born in the real world and deciding to fish for a living rather than actually go to school, meet folks while learning, or joining sports teams, going through relationships, etc.. You might meet folks while fishing, and might meet folks while selling the fish, but your life and world experiences would be severly crippled.
Player characters can provide a bit of a story of their own, but it still has to backed up by NPCs along the way. otherwise how did the first player become king,.. king of what? and why would he want you to collect rat tales?
The polls indicated a strong desire for story immersement in an MMORPG, but this thread proves that they're more focused on not grinding, and not doing quests.. both of which are basically a part of the story.. You became that godlike fighter because of the dues you paid through killing all those other creatures/players/NPCs. You are rich because you earned that money by doing well in trades like crafting and/or working out raw materials for others. Your character IS what you do with it.
Without cause and effect, you have no tale to tell.
It's an interesting point to also note that if you fullfilled most of the realistic "wishes" on this thread, you'd end up with games that noone would stick with. I liked the idea of the "overnight grinding" where you set up a task to do and then log-out.. come back the next day and you've done it. In some respects that's appealing, but in other respects it means that you've taken the bulk of the game out of the game.
There's an ancient chinese proverb that describes the plight of the MMoRPG player: "Careful what you wish for, you just might get it."
An MMO developer, must have it pretty rough balancing what the players want with what "works" as far as prolonged enjoyment goes. If you give them what they ask for, they become too content to play the game anymore.. there's just no spark when everything is "perfect".
In a perfect MMORPG there's no Grinding, and noone has visible level differences, we also all look different from each other and make lasting differences to the game.
A new player can walk right up and beat any "under weaponed" monster/player they want to with whatever weapon they grab because all similar weapons do the same amount of damage, and several hits can kill anything. They can put-on whatever armor is dropped, and spend whatever money is gained. They COULD save up their money, but why bother? once armored, they are forever armored, once armed, they are forever armed.
Elite players are everyone, but everyone else is a newb waiting to be destroyed or cheated out of a fair trade... unseen levels climb to infinitie heights wherever you want them too, Rats are born without tails. No one cheats because there's no specific way to gain the unseen levels. Heck, you can't even farm gold, let alone buy it.
Doesn't seem like an immersive storyline would help much at this point.
You either need to want the items "above you" or there's no point in trying to obtain them.. in-order to make you want them, they have to benefit you in some way.. in order to benefit you they have to make you better than SOMEONE, SOMEHOW (even if it's just better than your rivals, or standing out of a crowd).. Once you've got that in-play.. the rest has to follow suit.. it's what a game/story is all about... a driving force, as it were..
The problem and the resolution need some stuff between them or you dont have a story at all, let alone a reason to play..
I too would love a game with a persistent world, where MY actions make a difference and my impact on the world is there for others to see. I agree that this would be cool, but you're kind of approaching it from a "me" perspective, rather than an "all of us" persepective. If a game has 200+ servers with 2000 people on each server, (at any given moment.. not an example of the entire membership of the mmorpg), it's difficult to imagine the scale of what you're suggesting. Imagine if you had even like.. say, a headstone, that persisted on all servers.
What I had in mind was not so much a single headstone, but my contribution to the community by gaining building material and making subcomponents for making a larger structure like a guard tower or the like. It's not about me alone, but I helped make that building and can feel a bit of pride in that.
I am currently taking longsword classes in real life, and ocassionally we switch-over to German dagger wrestling to "mix-it-up". Someone who's seriously trained with a weapon can perform amazing feats with it, ESPECIALLY against someone who's not familiar with the specifics of the weapon being carried.
Agreed, skill does matter, but I was referring to a newbie hitting a high level player several times with a sword, only to have the high level player laugh and kill the newbie in a single blow. Any person with a sword would be dangerous no matter how good you are at fighting.
Just like a structural engineer would be able to design a safer, more durable building than your average person would. That's scary thinking.. part of the reason engineers exist and building codes, etc, is because making a building that isn't actually dangerous to it's inhabitants is a skill that must be learned. They use building codes, life safety codes, etc, to make buildings safe
We are talking about games here In the old days, there were no engineers and their houses still lasted a long time. It was an example to illustrate how skill isn't something you can put a number on, but it's still important.
You say get rid of the XP system, but then go on to describe perfect examples of how the XP system is used by most decent gamesystems. as you gain in xp, new abilities become unlocked, and it also becomes easier, or quicker to do the task involved. You simply become more experienced in the task and related tasks.
I was referring to the level system, where you can see that you only need to draw three more drawings to reach the next level of artistry to use your analogy. First of all, you cannot see your skill at drawing, but it can be a hidden game mechanic, which naturally needs number of some sort.
And why would anyone need to be a certain level to use their new, shiny sword or armor? All swords are similar apart from size, so anyone should be able to use any weapon or helmet. You just hold it in your hand or put it on your head... not exactly rocket science. Not so much.. I can use a longsword, and I've trained for years with it. If you handed me a single-handed sword, I'd be screwed. If I also had to use a shield with my other hand, I'd be twice as screwed.. or at least I'd be fighting at a MUCH lower level.
I'm talking about the ridiculous rule that a certain sword is for level 25 or above, so you absolutely cannot put it in your hand before you have gained two more levels. That's just stupid. Perhaps you'd fight worse if it's different from your usual weapon, but a short sword is a short sword and they aren't all that different. Also, you can easily grab a claymore even without having held a sword before. Whether you'd be able to swing it without hurting yourself is a different matter. The helmet is the same thing. Most MMORPGs have level requirements for armor too, so you must be that precise level or higher in order to "unlock" the magical level lock on the chinstrap. Again pretty stupid.
It'd be hard to really compare something like a well-made weapon to a poorly made weapon in terms of things like "4 times as powerful". I agree that a poorly made weapon should do the same amount of damage as a better one, but suggest that if you handed me a poorly-balanced longsword, I'd be less likely to score hits that do as much damage with it. However, having a better sword merely means that your actual skills can come to light easier.
As with all things, higher quality matters, but in most MMOGs, the difference between a newbie weapon and the highest level is at least twenty fold. That's about the difference of cardboard and carbon steel in comparison.
If players are rewarded for doing just about anything in a game with hidden exp and dice rolls and no level system, I bet they would play - and possibly even enjoy - the game rather than playing the Excel spreadsheet or trying to reach level cap as fast as possible. It's my opinion that players ruin the games.. If they can cheat, they will.. everyone wants a way to achieve whatever it is they're trying to achieve, if cheating is fast and easy, then some of the folks out there go for it. However, if they want to stay in-character, they don't want to cheat because it means getting out of the game itself and into game mechanics. THose game mechanics (excel stuff you mentioned) are things that can help a plaer that's beginnning to get bored with the grind, or just wants to PVP at the highest level possible, and isn't interested in the storyline. Hey.. the MMO was built for them too, to play the way they wanna play it.. if you don't like that, then don't play with them.
My response was meant as a way to avoid the grind, which I believe can be done. If players aren't that much different, there's little need to cheat and if the world is persistent and open ended, there's no grind unless you want it that way. PvP can be fun for new as well as older players since they can fight each other without too much of a gap in capabilities.
It's how the world is experienced.. the designers want you to experience the world, not just the other players. Quests should take you to lots of different areas, and unusual situations, along with perhaps, a continuing storyline. Part of the whole "putting higher level NPCS in teh woods nearby to keep you in an area" is a way to present you with an overcomable obstacle that you can develop your character's abilities to overcome. If you don't like those aspects, don't bother with the quests, I guess, but they are the basic alternative to grinding, and provide immersement into the story and world, though participating with the things going on in that world.
Often the quests are grinds in themselves. So we are presented with the alternative of grinding on your own or hear a story and grind some more with a little added reward for your trouble. Some games have had interesting quests, but eventually they are pretty much the same.
The polls indicated a strong desire for story immersement in an MMORPG, but this thread proves that they're more focused on not grinding, and not doing quests.. both of which are basically a part of the story..
I think you misunderstand... at least what I intended to write. I do think quests are a good way to convey the story, but the problem is that there are no other ways of progressing through most MMOGs besides grinding on your own. You cannot progress through the game without doing repetitive courier missions or killing insane numbers of mobs. Yes, there are different backstories in quests, but they mostly need you to go find stuff, craft certain items, kill a number of things, gather a number of items from a number of things you killed or kill a number of things in order to reach an item you need to find. You get my point. I don't find that very fun after a while.
I liked the idea of the "overnight grinding" where you set up a task to do and then log-out.. come back the next day and you've done it. In some respects that's appealing, but in other respects it means that you've taken the bulk of the game out of the game.
Hmm... The game "A Tale in the Desert" had that in a way, which was pretty nice, since it made a repetitive task happen automatically while offline. For example, if you had collected an amount of grass, you'd get the option of setting grass collection to be done automatically. Basically all tasks could be automated, but you had to choose which. Maybe a system of studying books to further your abilities could be interesting. It certainly wouldn't take the bulk out of the game I think.
An MMO developer, must have it pretty rough balancing what the players want with what "works" as far as prolonged enjoyment goes. If you give them what they ask for, they become too content to play the game anymore.. there's just no spark when everything is "perfect". In a perfect MMORPG there's no Grinding, and noone has visible level differences, we also all look different from each other and make lasting differences to the game.
Yes, it must be difficult to balanced finances with goals and predicting the future at the same time, but would adding more diversity to a game make players lees likely to stick with the game? I mean there are players who has played Second Life for years simply because there are nearly endless posibilities and it's fun and social. Add a sprinkling of action gameplay and it'd be even better and add some storyline on top and we have a game
A new player can walk right up and beat any "under weaponed" monster/player they want to with whatever weapon they grab because all similar weapons do the same amount of damage, and several hits can kill anything. They can put-on whatever armor is dropped, and spend whatever money is gained. They COULD save up their money, but why bother? once armored, they are forever armored, once armed, they are forever armed.
Sounds brilliant so far. Nah, you don't just roll up a soggy newspaper and go hunting packs of wolves with it, but it shouldn't take a greatsword to knock out a ferret and the ferret will not very likely be able to kill you at all unless you slowly bleed to death. If armor and weapons have no stats, there's no need to get one sword over another unless you care for the design of the weapon or perhaps it has been crafted from a better material perhaps. A goody healer type might want brilliant white clothing and armor while the blacksmith would perhaps prefer a leather apron over their armor. Why do MMOGs need moneysinks?
Rats are born without tails.
lol, finally Or perhaps rats will be able to keep their tails instead.
No one cheats because there's no specific way to gain the unseen levels. Heck, you can't even farm gold, let alone buy it. Doesn't seem like an immersive storyline would help much at this point.
You find the lack of cheaters and gold farmers a negative thing?
You either need to want the items "above you" or there's no point in trying to obtain them.. in-order to make you want them, they have to benefit you in some way.. in order to benefit you they have to make you better than SOMEONE, SOMEHOW (even if it's just better than your rivals, or standing out of a crowd).. Once you've got that in-play.. the rest has to follow suit.. it's what a game/story is all about... a driving force, as it were..
I agree that it's important for players to stand out, but why the heck are people sticking with WoW or EVE for that matter. Once WoW players reach level 75 or whatever the cap is at today, they're all the same again. EVE hasn't got much visual customization besides the player avatar picture, however they add a much more varied skillset. There's different equipment, but in order to make the game balanced, they're also pretty much the same when you boil it down.
The problem and the resolution need some stuff between them or you dont have a story at all, let alone a reason to play
Well picture having travelled the lands and experienced a great many sceneries and people. You decide to settle in with a group of gritty warriors living in a forest on the sloping sides of a mountain. You collectively build a city and defenses, each providing a number of materials for the construction, so you basically have a home for yourself, which you might be inclined to keep supporting and defending. You now have a story for your town, created by you and other player, not written by the developers, although they may have planted the seed for the community by forcing a limitation for the city location and size as well as the people and factions inclined to live there.
From there, you can expand the town, add more defenses or even make some sort of government. Or you can be selfish and build yourself a wineyard for profit or your own consumption and play your own game outside the community if you wish. You might even want to be a wanderer, traveling without any set faction or hometown, which again gives more diversity and immersion in my opinion. I'd enjoy the first week of city building a heck of a lot more than I enjoyed my entire time in WoW if it is properly done.
There can still be quest giving NPCs and more can appear as the town grows into a city, so the gameplay expands even though you haven't moved at all since you began the game or the setting will be much different if you return after a long journey. I don't know how you fell, but I think that's enough reason to make me stick around for a while and maybe help make an impact on the world myself.
Problem is, it takes a visionary company to realize such an idea and vision is risk, which is a no-no for investors. So it takes a visionary, fearless billionaire I guess
Oh, another method that would stop everyone from crowding the high levels would be to have a remort system. Take, say, FFXI, and make it so _all_ job levels combine to give stat boosts and such. Thus, a level 75 warrior switching to a level 1 black mage will still have a decent amount of HP and attack power (enough to tackle, say, a level 5-10 mob at level 1!), but when going back to warrior after levelling up black mage will still gain some tiny HP and attack power boost from the cross training. This way players won't race to the end level and stay there, but will be encouraged to play through the game multiple times and the game might feel more, well, multiplayer since there will be people to group with at lower levels. Combine this with the idea of giving 5-10% XP towards jobs from people you are grouped with (so fighting alongside fighters gives you more HP and attack power, while fighting alongside ninjas gives you agility and evasion) and suddenly character progression is a lot more fun. The base gameplay (whack a mole until level, repeat), doesn't get any better, but it solves at least one problem of the boring linear levels in MMOs.
If you guys don't like the "grind" character progression there are games that exist that don't have it already called first person shooters. I myself like character progressive games and feel levels are given too easy now in games as it is. There is too much focus on getting the the finish line. Levels should be long long long and dungeons to explore with trolls, dragons, goblins at each level. Most people should never reach the end of the game before an expansion is about to come out, about a year or so. That is a MMORPG, a long last experience. The focus doesn't have to be how fast can I finish this game, you are paying monthly to be part of the world for godsake.
If you don't like character progression go play a first person shooter. World of Warcraft is too shallow and easy as it is. They only have interesting content at the very end where everyone rushed to. They have already made it even easier to get there in the last patch I believe I read which is sad. It should be harder to level, to make levels mean something or just remove them and make World of Easycraft the first person shooter of the MMORPG world. If they are saying levels mean nothing already by making them even faster why not do what I just said remove them since apparently it is only in the way of the final goal of envious players who can't stand someone being higher level than them.
I don't like quest either, I don't need some npc making my adventures, give us interesting dungeons to explore, castles, etc etc and put neat items on big baddies along the way .. .let the players decide what monsters need to be killed. Giving XP for quest was the stupidest idea ever in these games, which about has made it REQUIRED for you to follow their stupid linear game play. Make MMORPGs a world again .. not single player rpgs online. I can play that offline.
I am totally with you, well almost totally. I dont mind questing as long as it isnt pretty much required as it is in WoW. I liked questing in EQ, you never had to do one if you didnt want to and it really didnt cost you anything. So leave quests in, and you can even make them not give exp but give instead coin or perhaps a cool item that while cool is not required.
Look, the major focus in almost every MMO is...Combat. However, combat is also one of the most boring, clunky, mindless, and easiest features in an MMO. No matter what kind of quests or mobs you come up with its always gonna feel like a grind when you have such horrible game play. You can either A) Make an MMO that does NOT focus on combat or Come up with more engaging game play
Comments
Aphexdk I could not have said it better, I totaly agree with you.
Now mmorpg developers out there dont be shy, give us this game and we shall open our pockets and throw coins at you
EXACTLY! Don't just give XP for killing mobs or completing quests. Gheez, i can't believe devs are still doing the same old crap. I guess they justify it by putting 'twists' in the game but its still the same damn game. I hate this level advancement by quest BS that all the MMOs do. I want freedom and I don't want to spend hours doing the same old shit to get gear or any of that BS. I don't see why MMOs haven't changed at all. I fell in love with MMOs when I first played UO about 8 or 9 years ago but all the MMOs nowadays are so much different than what UO used to be its disgusting. NO imagination, NO creativity just the same old crap piled on top of crap with a side of something the devs think is innovative but really is just a distraction from their crap piled on crap. Very dissapointing...
Its not like this is some ingenious idea either. People like you and me can think of this why can't any devs? And if the devs have the ideas why don't any publishers go with it? This isn't any radical thinking that only appeals to a small portion of MMO players. It makes no sense to keep coming out with the same old MMO in a different setting...why can't people get this through their heads?!?!?!?
PS I too love the concepts behind Darkfall
EXACTLY! Don't just give XP for killing mobs or completing quests. Gheez, i can't believe devs are still doing the same old crap. I guess they justify it by putting 'twists' in the game but its still the same damn game. I hate this level advancement by quest BS that all the MMOs do. I want freedom and I don't want to spend hours doing the same old shit to get gear or any of that BS. I don't see why MMOs haven't changed at all. I fell in love with MMOs when I first played UO about 8 or 9 years ago but all the MMOs nowadays are so much different than what UO used to be its disgusting. NO imagination, NO creativity just the same old crap piled on top of crap with a side of something the devs think is innovative but really is just a distraction from their crap piled on crap. Very dissapointing...
Its not like this is some ingenious idea either. People like you and me can think of this why can't any devs? And if the devs have the ideas why don't any publishers go with it? This isn't any radical thinking that only appeals to a small portion of MMO players. It makes no sense to keep coming out with the same old MMO in a different setting...why can't people get this through their heads?!?!?!?
PS I too love the concepts behind Darkfall
Well, yes and no.
Sure, a guy who likes killing mobs endlessly should get Xp and a crafter who find the best resources to make the bet items should get Xp. But it doesn't make sense for a mob-killing player to become a better crafter because of all the Xp he ground killing durnis or for a crafter to become a better killer because he made the best food and drink available.
Pre-CU SWG had the best system - different kinds of Xp. So an excellent killer got, basically, combat Xp he could spend on becoming better at fighting and defence while an excellent crafter got crfting Xp he could spend on experimentation, harvesting, production etc. Ultimately both could become 'uber' but in different sectors of the game.
EXACTLY! Don't just give XP for killing mobs or completing quests. Gheez, i can't believe devs are still doing the same old crap. I guess they justify it by putting 'twists' in the game but its still the same damn game. I hate this level advancement by quest BS that all the MMOs do. I want freedom and I don't want to spend hours doing the same old shit to get gear or any of that BS. I don't see why MMOs haven't changed at all. I fell in love with MMOs when I first played UO about 8 or 9 years ago but all the MMOs nowadays are so much different than what UO used to be its disgusting. NO imagination, NO creativity just the same old crap piled on top of crap with a side of something the devs think is innovative but really is just a distraction from their crap piled on crap. Very dissapointing...
Its not like this is some ingenious idea either. People like you and me can think of this why can't any devs? And if the devs have the ideas why don't any publishers go with it? This isn't any radical thinking that only appeals to a small portion of MMO players. It makes no sense to keep coming out with the same old MMO in a different setting...why can't people get this through their heads?!?!?!?
PS I too love the concepts behind Darkfall
Well, yes and no.
Sure, a guy who likes killing mobs endlessly should get Xp and a crafter who find the best resources to make the bet items should get Xp. But it doesn't make sense for a mob-killing player to become a better crafter because of all the Xp he ground killing durnis or for a crafter to become a better killer because he made the best food and drink available.
Pre-CU SWG had the best system - different kinds of Xp. So an excellent killer got, basically, combat Xp he could spend on becoming better at fighting and defence while an excellent crafter got crfting Xp he could spend on experimentation, harvesting, production etc. Ultimately both could become 'uber' but in different sectors of the game.
Ya, I should have been more clear. I just had the idea inside my head of a skill based game instead of a level based game. So someone using a skill would gain XP for that skill. If a crafter were making armor then his blacksmithing skill might increase, not his overall XP as I don't like the idea of having an overall XP rating, like levels. This is what old UO was like and I miss it, advancement through use of a skill and complete freedom, no level restrictions, no having to run for 15 minutes to get to a certain location, no waiting to get the best gear to compete in PvP. PvP was based upon player skill
In my opinion, you cannot avoid grinding in current online games, so you have to discuss new concepts to get around it. No small element of current MMOGs are the cause for grinding, but the entire game design itself. I may tire faster than the average player, but having slaughtered my 120th Giant Rat, I want to do something else. In most games, you can move to a different area and fight maybe Goblins or Dragonflies, but they're just Giant Rats in a different outfit. Boring.
Then you can progress by doing quests, which requires you to most often kill these same rats again, but gives you a slight exp bonus and some monetary reward. Rinse and repeat for the next 3 real life months and maybe fight some other players or raid their cities. Boring real fast too.
Whenever I cannot progress in other ways than the one pointed out by developers, to me that is very much a grind. Basically all the MMOGs I've played has forced me to be in a particular area at my current level because I'd either not get any (or much) exp from killing lower level mobs or get killed because mobs are too powerful, thereby FORCING me to stay in that little area which suits my level. I want to play with my friends but if they're lower than my level, I don't get anything from joining them (and gameplay isn't fun, so I don't get that either) and if they're higher than my level, they have to babysit me to avoid me getting killed. No fun. A wolf is a wolf whether I have 3 years of combat training or 3 days.
This endgame concept puzzles me. You spent time going through levels to get to a point where you cannot go further and everyone will be the same level. Why have that at all? Why have levels at all? Why have different paths to this endgame if it doesn't matter? It's merely a roadblock for players who obviously race ahead to reach the level cap. That is stupid, repetitive, redundant and boring.
Bottom line is: To avoid grinding, get rid of levels, exp, level requirements on gear, endgame and skill points and start from a clean slate. Well, in my opinion anyway.
While I appreciate the intention of your post, the assumption is a bit flawed. Most modern MMOs are trending AWAY from grinding. WoW, CoX, LOTRO, EVE, and WWIIO all steer you toward quest/missions rather than grinding MOBS. When I play these games, I rarely notice that I'm leveling let alone grinding.
Grinding WILL go away, and is going away as soon as the ancient games that still have it either die off or change over. I'll be very surprised if AoC or WAR have grinding in them. People are done with it.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Aphexdk I guess the wording of "endgame" is debatable but there has to be a final stage of character development. I'll change it to this point -
Perfect replacement for grinding in MMO's?... hmmm... Girls!
I just wanted to comment on this post. There's some stuff in here that's based on popular misconceptions, and I felt maybe I could explain some stuff that might make it a little more.. well.. understandable.
Please understand that this is in no way an attack against the original post or it's author, it's merely that a lot of what was said in it I agreed with.. until I went.. oh.. wait a sec..
Aphexdk, posted on 11/29/07 5:12:26 PM :
I too would love a game with a persistent world, where MY actions make a difference and my impact on the world is there for others to see.
I agree that this would be cool, but you're kind of approaching it from a "me" perspective, rather than an "all of us" persepective. If a game has 200+ servers with 2000 people on each server, (at any given moment.. not an example of the entire membership of the mmorpg), it's difficult to imagine the scale of what you're suggesting. Imagine if you had even like.. say, a headstone, that persisted on all servers. Would your monument feel impressive when lined-up next to 400,000 other headstones? What if you walked all the way across a field of 632 x 635 stones trying to find yours..
MIchigan stadium holds 10,501 people in it, it's the US's largest football stadium, so line-up 38 or so of those, and find the needle in the haystack.
If you can do something, everyone is able to as well. Now, in theory, a system that locks players to specific servers could do like 200 persistant monuments, that would basically keep that monument on that server. That's not impossible, but tricky, and probably not worth the effort to some degree.
I can't stand levels and their importance in games. If some guy has had some time to train combat and using a sword, naturally he'd be more effective in combat than me without any experience, but no way can he survive 10-20 hits from my sword and then kill me in a single stab with a dagger.
I am currently taking longsword classes in real life, and ocassionally we switch-over to German dagger wrestling to "mix-it-up". Someone who's seriously trained with a weapon can perform amazing feats with it, ESPECIALLY against someone who's not familiar with the specifics of the weapon being carried. I, myself, was beaten silly by a friend who was not only really good with a dagger, but was also trained against the longsword. There was literally nothing I could throw at him that he didn't already know how to defend himself against. He blocked, parried, and disarmed me several times with all kinds of bruising attacks that I simply couldn't counter. In real life, that's how skill works.. if they're that good, you just can't get hit #1 on them, but in game terms, you'd probably hate combat that included folks simply not landing any hits on each other.
It wasn't a weapon advantage, it was using his skill and experience against mine, and I came-up short. In longswords we were easily a match for each other, but I'd never fought against a guy who was armed with a dagger before.
It would be far more exciting and realistic to have all players roughly equally able to do harm, but the more experienced fighter will naturally be better at blocking, avoiding and lining up for a counter attack.
Yeah, that's kinda "it", but true combat with knowledgable combatants isn't equal unless a person has trained in defense against the weapon in-question. You can learn a lot of strikes, defensive moves and counter-attacks but if you can't recognize an opening, or incoming attack because you don't know the opponent's style, you're useless. So perhaps it'd be better to reward experience the same way? Or is that just too technical and too realiastic to be interesting... there's always the balance of saying, hey.. this isn't real life, I just want it to be fun for the newbie and the expert.
Just like a structural engineer would be able to design a safer, more durable building than your average person would.
That's scary thinking.. part of the reason engineers exist and building codes, etc, is because making a building that isn't actually dangerous to it's inhabitants is a skill that must be learned. They use building codes, life safety codes, etc, to make buildings safe, and licensed Engineers are where they are because they have proven that they understand all kinds of stuff that's involved with selecting materials and meeting code requirements, etc.
I've worked in engineering offices for half my life, and lemme' just say.. I'd never suggest that I could build a building without research of some kind.. not even an outhouse. That's even pretending that the building codes and stuff wouldn't apply to it.
Get rid of the standard EXP system and give people added abilities in the task they perform often. A person building a large farm house and barn on his/her own would naturally learn many tricks for making their work easier, faster and better. A hunter who spends a large amount of time each day hunting will pick up some tricks for finding their prey faster and learn how to get close enough to avoid scaring them away.
You say get rid of the XP system, but then go on to describe perfect examples of how the XP system is used by most decent gamesystems. as you gain in xp, new abilities become unlocked, and it also becomes easier, or quicker to do the task involved. You simply become more experienced in the task and related tasks. Kinda' like if you draw a lot of pencil drawings, it might make you a better artist, and you become one of the lucky few that can do amazing things with it. However, in an MMO, everyone can become a worldclass artist with the right amount of art "grinding" first. Kinda like real life.
And why would anyone need to be a certain level to use their new, shiny sword or armor? All swords are similar apart from size, so anyone should be able to use any weapon or helmet. You just hold it in your hand or put it on your head... not exactly rocket science.
Not so much.. I can use a longsword, and I've trained for years with it. If you handed me a single-handed sword, I'd be screwed. If I also had to use a shield with my other hand, I'd be twice as screwed.. or at least I'd be fighting at a MUCH lower level. Give me a shortsword and I'm liable to hurt myself.. the balance on any of these swordtypes is completely different, and the training drills for each is also completely different. Hand me a "greatsword" and I'd be an absolute idot with about a dozen pulled muscles in my neck and shoulders from trying to use it wrong. Helmets, are all different too. I've worn open faced helmets and loved 'em, but then tired-out a closed helm (a full head helmet with eyeslits) and absolutely hated it. It's a whole different beast. fighting while peering through eyeholes that seem too far away from your face is an absolute nightmare (unless you're used to it, I guess.. I hate it). I can't even imagine fighting a short little guy in one of those things.. I wouldn't be able to even FIND them, let alone use any of my "longsword prowess".. There's too much between me and my fighting zone.
Different armor weights and types can screw you up pretty good too.. I've worn aluminium, and stainless steel plate. I've also worn mail (chainmail to you D&D folks) in aluminum and stainless. There's the obvious differences of not moving as fast as you expect to because the armor is heavier, and getting tired faster, but there's other weird differences like with plate, it is an active part of your defense to take lesser hits with it, otherwise there's no point in using it at all. There's also differences to your balance, and you can't move the same way in each.
So, in the real world, you have to train in the armor you plan to wear, using the weapon you plan to use, at the weights and sizes you want to be good in.. otherwise, you're screwed if it messes with you at all (bulkiness, vision, weight, etc). In game terms, that might suck. I can imagine that most folks reading this have probably never really thought it might be like this. As a result, everyone would be like.. What the HECK! what kinda CRAP is this restriction?! My defense/attack and agility levels DROPPED because I got better armor!
Something to remember though is that RPG = fantasy, not real life, so it's fine to disregard real life fighting issues, but most folks seem to prefer thinking it's more realistic than it is. They HAVE to make stuff like better armors and stuff to strive to obtain because otherwise there's no point to having it. If just anyone could have it, why would anyone want anything less than that?
And no weapon is 4 times as powerful as one the same size and shape but 10 levels lower. It's merely boosted for the sake of making levels matter.
It'd be hard to really compare something like a well-made weapon to a poorly made weapon in terms of things like "4 times as powerful". I agree that a poorly made weapon should do the same amount of damage as a better one, but suggest that if you handed me a poorly-balanced longsword, I'd be less likely to score hits that do as much damage with it. However, having a better sword merely means that your actual skills can come to light easier. (kinda like playing a guitar, I guess) Here's the catch though.. A newbie that grabs a good sword isn't going to fight better than a newbie that grabs a junk sword. If the skill isn't there, it shouldn't come to light.. BUT.. that newbie should still be able to use the well-made sword, just without any bonuses for it.
Of course if we're talking about magical weapons.. then maybe it IS better like that, and helps guide you as you fight.. who knows?
If players are rewarded for doing just about anything in a game with hidden exp and dice rolls and no level system, I bet they would play - and possibly even enjoy - the game rather than playing the Excel spreadsheet or trying to reach level cap as fast as possible. Games should be FUN and EXCITING instead of boring and repetitive. Sadly, all current MMOs are really boring and all pretty much the same game in my opinion.
It's my opinion that players ruin the games.. If they can cheat, they will.. everyone wants a way to achieve whatever it is they're trying to achieve, if cheating is fast and easy, then some of the folks out there go for it. However, if they want to stay in-character, they don't want to cheat because it means getting out of the game itself and into game mechanics. THose game mechanics (excel stuff you mentioned) are things that can help a plaer that's beginnning to get bored with the grind, or just wants to PVP at the highest level possible, and isn't interested in the storyline. Hey.. the MMO was built for them too, to play the way they wanna play it.. if you don't like that, then don't play with them.
I think it is very much possible to get away from having a final stage of character progression, but the downside is that you can't compare yourself to other players without a level system - and I believe many gamers want to have others see how cool they are for reaching level 50 in just 2 weeks or whatever.
My suggestion for a solution is actually very much like real life, where you become better at certain tasks, but you can't put a number on it. For example, a fighter can continue to learn new moves and become faster and more alert during fights, which will give him/her an advantage, but not provide any numbers for DPS and not become invincible. A crafter who spends a lot of time making wooden homes or furniture will gain knowledge in woodworking to produce less waste from tree logs and learn to make more decorative items, but anyone should be able to make a simple chair from a wooden board given the proper tools.
The downside to this is the fact that this progression is hidden from the players, which may make some wonder what's happening, so perhaps some indicators or milestones with a sort of reward could be added, so they won't start wondering why they aren't getting a level-up. LOTRO has titles you can have floating over your head which is a nice little reward for farming pipeweed for hours on end. If the world is made so that the items you craft will be in demand, all your work will be for a reason unlike most current MMOGs where you craft and destroy for exp only.
My point is that this kind of system is open ended with no levels to cap or special content for each level. Instead of a high level monster, you could have several of them in a herd, but a seasoned and a new player should be almost equally capable of taking it on. If you find an awesome new piece of armor, you don't need to lug it around in your backpack for days because you need to gain two more levels to wear it and you shouldn't need to be a certain race to use a bow/axe or whatever, but maybe get a hidden penalty for using a longbow as a Dwarf due to the "vertical disadvantage".
I think EVE Online is the closest to my idea as it is not based on exp, but training for certain amounts of time in a single skill at a time, but at lower levels, the grinding in EVE is monetary and the travel times from my experience. I would have continued to play if I and my corporation could have made a bigger impact on the world, but a space station vanishes in the vastness of the game and makes no significant difference. I would like to see an MMOG where huge cities are popping up all around the game world solely due to player effort and cooperation. Continuous upgrades could have players engaged for a long time without it feeling like a grind if done correctly, while the warrior types could help man the walls to fend off NPC or enemy faction players attacking the city. It has been attempted in the past, but not well enough to be good.
Personally, I think I would enjoy the combat and exploration aspect very much too because I know I can't go into areas where my level is too low and get killed all the time and I can't go to places where I get no reward for fighting too low level mobs. And there is no rush to reach maximum level or keep up with your guild members because levels don't matter. That would be a nice system I believe.
I hate to double-post but in going through the posts made while I was writing that novel (sorry..) I realized something that really shouldn't be ignored..
Different strokes for different folks..
I notice a lot of posts condemning quests, and the various other things that designers try to force you to do. Although I can certainly agree that empty quests such as getting the 30 rat tails just to hand off to an NPC, are useless boring quests, I disagree that quests or designer "restrictions" are a bad thing. Basically RPG's are games where you enter a world as a different person other than yourself. In order to do this, most MMORPGs have a storyline, or several storlyines told through the quests.
It's how the world is experienced.. the designers want you to experience the world, not just the other players. Quests should take you to lots of different areas, and unusual situations, along with perhaps, a continuing storyline.
Part of the whole "putting higher level NPCS in teh woods nearby to keep you in an area" is a way to present you with an overcomable obstacle that you can develop your character's abilities to overcome.
If you don't like those aspects, don't bother with the quests, I guess, but they are the basic alternative to grinding, and provide immersement into the story and world, though participating with the things going on in that world.
It's kinda' like being born in the real world and deciding to fish for a living rather than actually go to school, meet folks while learning, or joining sports teams, going through relationships, etc.. You might meet folks while fishing, and might meet folks while selling the fish, but your life and world experiences would be severly crippled.
Player characters can provide a bit of a story of their own, but it still has to backed up by NPCs along the way. otherwise how did the first player become king,.. king of what? and why would he want you to collect rat tales?
The polls indicated a strong desire for story immersement in an MMORPG, but this thread proves that they're more focused on not grinding, and not doing quests.. both of which are basically a part of the story.. You became that godlike fighter because of the dues you paid through killing all those other creatures/players/NPCs. You are rich because you earned that money by doing well in trades like crafting and/or working out raw materials for others. Your character IS what you do with it.
Without cause and effect, you have no tale to tell.
It's an interesting point to also note that if you fullfilled most of the realistic "wishes" on this thread, you'd end up with games that noone would stick with. I liked the idea of the "overnight grinding" where you set up a task to do and then log-out.. come back the next day and you've done it. In some respects that's appealing, but in other respects it means that you've taken the bulk of the game out of the game.
There's an ancient chinese proverb that describes the plight of the MMoRPG player: "Careful what you wish for, you just might get it."
An MMO developer, must have it pretty rough balancing what the players want with what "works" as far as prolonged enjoyment goes. If you give them what they ask for, they become too content to play the game anymore.. there's just no spark when everything is "perfect".
In a perfect MMORPG there's no Grinding, and noone has visible level differences, we also all look different from each other and make lasting differences to the game.
A new player can walk right up and beat any "under weaponed" monster/player they want to with whatever weapon they grab because all similar weapons do the same amount of damage, and several hits can kill anything. They can put-on whatever armor is dropped, and spend whatever money is gained. They COULD save up their money, but why bother? once armored, they are forever armored, once armed, they are forever armed.
Elite players are everyone, but everyone else is a newb waiting to be destroyed or cheated out of a fair trade... unseen levels climb to infinitie heights wherever you want them too, Rats are born without tails. No one cheats because there's no specific way to gain the unseen levels. Heck, you can't even farm gold, let alone buy it.
Doesn't seem like an immersive storyline would help much at this point.
You either need to want the items "above you" or there's no point in trying to obtain them.. in-order to make you want them, they have to benefit you in some way.. in order to benefit you they have to make you better than SOMEONE, SOMEHOW (even if it's just better than your rivals, or standing out of a crowd).. Once you've got that in-play.. the rest has to follow suit.. it's what a game/story is all about... a driving force, as it were..
The problem and the resolution need some stuff between them or you dont have a story at all, let alone a reason to play..
Oh, another method that would stop everyone from crowding the high levels would be to have a remort system. Take, say, FFXI, and make it so _all_ job levels combine to give stat boosts and such. Thus, a level 75 warrior switching to a level 1 black mage will still have a decent amount of HP and attack power (enough to tackle, say, a level 5-10 mob at level 1!), but when going back to warrior after levelling up black mage will still gain some tiny HP and attack power boost from the cross training. This way players won't race to the end level and stay there, but will be encouraged to play through the game multiple times and the game might feel more, well, multiplayer since there will be people to group with at lower levels. Combine this with the idea of giving 5-10% XP towards jobs from people you are grouped with (so fighting alongside fighters gives you more HP and attack power, while fighting alongside ninjas gives you agility and evasion) and suddenly character progression is a lot more fun. The base gameplay (whack a mole until level, repeat), doesn't get any better, but it solves at least one problem of the boring linear levels in MMOs.
I am totally with you, well almost totally. I dont mind questing as long as it isnt pretty much required as it is in WoW. I liked questing in EQ, you never had to do one if you didnt want to and it really didnt cost you anything. So leave quests in, and you can even make them not give exp but give instead coin or perhaps a cool item that while cool is not required.
Look, the major focus in almost every MMO is...Combat. However, combat is also one of the most boring, clunky, mindless, and easiest features in an MMO. No matter what kind of quests or mobs you come up with its always gonna feel like a grind when you have such horrible game play. You can either A) Make an MMO that does NOT focus on combat or
Come up with more engaging game play