What you describe here is how the old game of SWG used to be like (or was supposed to work like...). So it has already been tried out and it doesn't look like something similar ever will see the daylight again /cry.
Just to bad that a few arrogant people at SOE and LucasArts had to come along, and tell the fans of the old game that they now must like a spectacular crappy level based game instead of the freedom of the old game. Well, the rest is history! R.I.P. SWG! Despite the bugs and flaws of the old SWG, it was by far the best MMO I've ever played. I'm one of those that now have tried almost every MMO that is around, but nothing out there even come close to fill the vacuum my beloved old SWG left behind.
I don't think so. I did not play SWG so maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't your base damage and/or base accuracy improve as you leveled up a skill? That is the kind of thing I'd prefer not to see.
The idea here is MORE abilities, not deadlier base abilities. Such as maybe a powerful sniper shot with a long cooldown, or a short-term buff that makes you harder to hit for a few seconds. NOT higher damage all the time. NOT god-like avoidance skills that make it impossible for a low-level to hit you, even while you sleep.
I guess it is debatable, but I would have to say no to that.
A brand new toon would in theory be able to beat a "maxed out" toon. In theory they ...had the same amount of healt, gave and received the same amount of damage, etc. The difference between the maxed out toon and the non-skilled one was that the maxed out toon would have all kinds of additional mods, like various defense mods, weapon speed mods, access to far more skills, certifications for better weapons, etc. The extra defense mods would make the maxed out toon harder to hit and in some cases perhaps a mitigation of damage received. The weapon speed mod together with better weapons would of course mean better damage output. Access to more skills would of course also do a lot to damage output and that was a part of the weak points of the old system. Due to the buff system spiraling out of controll, you could spam your best skills without any consequences.
In some ways you are correct about the old SWG,but still not. I would say that the original design and goals for SWG was just what you described, but due to SOE and LucasArts the flaws of the old system was never properly addressed. Now afterwards I don't think that SOE and LucasArst even bothered or tried to finish the original game, they just left it half done and brought out the easy to use nerf-bat instead!
It's kind of hard to properly describe all of this for someone that never experienced the old SWG, but I think you would have liked it (if it got fixed that is!).
What you're looking for is the original SWG. Smedley took care of that already. On edit: Oh, epf1 already mentioned this! I guess I owe epf1 a refreshing fizzy beverage!
You are welcome.
I'll have a vasarian brandy instead if you don't mind lol.
[quote]Originally posted by vajuras My point is, if your skill choices are restricted by the game according to a choice you make at character creation, you are playing in a class-based system. Therefore atrophy doesn't qualify, nor does a system that assigns you a class name based on the skills you've chosen.
Developers choose to create class-based games because they encourage (or enforce) player interdependence.
[/b][/quote] No, whether a player is forced into a Class at character creation or not makes no difference. By your logic, even Tabula Rasa wouldn't be a Class based game. You do realize we dont pick a Class at character creation? So then, what is the difference between a skill based system and Tabula Rasa? The key difference is in EVE Online you dynamically generate your own Class. In Tabula Rasa, you are forced into a statically defined Class. You can't say something isn't Class based all because I'm not forced into one at character creation. There are many MMOs coming down the pipe where they delay this choice until Level X. So then, it is futile to create a category call CLASS BASED when pretty any system you could think of would generate a 'Class' and player interdependance will pretty much automically exist when you make it impossible to have a 'Tank_Mage'. But even if you had a Tank_Mage you could still enforce player dependency through overlapping buffs/debuffs, etc like we see in City of Heroes
Petty, small attempt to argue a minor point.
So fine, ignore the "character creation" part of what I said earlier. I fully admit I did not take the TR model into account. It does not invalidate the main gist of my definition. TR is still class-based. When you are forced (at some point, usually early in the game) to choose a class for your character, and that class restricts you to a given list of abilities, it is class-based.
The main point is, regardless of when the choice is made, a class-based system artificially restricts your character's abilities. I understand you are saying the skills you choose can define your class, and that's all well and good, but it is not a class-based system.
Just because you use the word "class" does not make it class-based. Likewise, NOT using the word level does NOT make a game any less level-based.
vajuras (and a lot of other people) ... you really need to stop lumping level-based and class-based systems under the same umbrella. The two concepts, while often used together, are completely distinct. Each brings its own issues, pro and con, to the table.
Most importantly, level-based is not the opposite of skill-based. Nor is class-based for that matter. Asheron's Call, for example, is both level-based and skill-based.
Like AVPMUD, AC1 was a skill-point based system in the vein of GURPS:
It would be more correct to call any game whereas you merely earn a skill-point a skill-point based system. There is no point in calling it a Level based system when the player is merely earning skill points. According to your logic so would GURPS be a Level based PnP. Sure, go ahead and call it that but too me, a true Level based system envolves vertically improving the avatar at each Level up directly. Skill point systems improves skills independantly
I'm not familiar with AC1's system, but skills systems can feel very much like level systems. Consider Saga of Ryzom, for example. Sure, it's skill based, but the skills are so broad and generic that you're still more or less defined by your highest skill level.
In GURPS, a swordsman needs a good sword skill, wrestling skill (because swinging that sword is only one of many options in combat!), armory for maintaining armor _or_ acrobatics or some other defensive oriented skill (if swashbuckling), shield skill, and a few other traits like combat reflexes. This is in addition to any skills they may need for other activities, like negotiation for a mercenary that needs to earn a good wage for his sword arm, or fast talk. Perhaps a lore skill for being able to recognize and identify fantasy critters.
So it's really the difference between a vertical and a horizontal levelling system.
Comments
I don't think so. I did not play SWG so maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't your base damage and/or base accuracy improve as you leveled up a skill? That is the kind of thing I'd prefer not to see.The idea here is MORE abilities, not deadlier base abilities. Such as maybe a powerful sniper shot with a long cooldown, or a short-term buff that makes you harder to hit for a few seconds. NOT higher damage all the time. NOT god-like avoidance skills that make it impossible for a low-level to hit you, even while you sleep.
I guess it is debatable, but I would have to say no to that.
A brand new toon would in theory be able to beat a "maxed out" toon. In theory they ...had the same amount of healt, gave and received the same amount of damage, etc. The difference between the maxed out toon and the non-skilled one was that the maxed out toon would have all kinds of additional mods, like various defense mods, weapon speed mods, access to far more skills, certifications for better weapons, etc. The extra defense mods would make the maxed out toon harder to hit and in some cases perhaps a mitigation of damage received. The weapon speed mod together with better weapons would of course mean better damage output. Access to more skills would of course also do a lot to damage output and that was a part of the weak points of the old system. Due to the buff system spiraling out of controll, you could spam your best skills without any consequences.
In some ways you are correct about the old SWG,but still not. I would say that the original design and goals for SWG was just what you described, but due to SOE and LucasArts the flaws of the old system was never properly addressed. Now afterwards I don't think that SOE and LucasArst even bothered or tried to finish the original game, they just left it half done and brought out the easy to use nerf-bat instead!
It's kind of hard to properly describe all of this for someone that never experienced the old SWG, but I think you would have liked it (if it got fixed that is!).
You are welcome.
I'll have a vasarian brandy instead if you don't mind lol.
Petty, small attempt to argue a minor point.
So fine, ignore the "character creation" part of what I said earlier. I fully admit I did not take the TR model into account. It does not invalidate the main gist of my definition. TR is still class-based. When you are forced (at some point, usually early in the game) to choose a class for your character, and that class restricts you to a given list of abilities, it is class-based.
The main point is, regardless of when the choice is made, a class-based system artificially restricts your character's abilities. I understand you are saying the skills you choose can define your class, and that's all well and good, but it is not a class-based system.
Just because you use the word "class" does not make it class-based. Likewise, NOT using the word level does NOT make a game any less level-based.
Like AVPMUD, AC1 was a skill-point based system in the vein of GURPS:
GURPS
It would be more correct to call any game whereas you merely earn a skill-point a skill-point based system. There is no point in calling it a Level based system when the player is merely earning skill points. According to your logic so would GURPS be a Level based PnP. Sure, go ahead and call it that but too me, a true Level based system envolves vertically improving the avatar at each Level up directly. Skill point systems improves skills independantly
I'm not familiar with AC1's system, but skills systems can feel very much like level systems. Consider Saga of Ryzom, for example. Sure, it's skill based, but the skills are so broad and generic that you're still more or less defined by your highest skill level.In GURPS, a swordsman needs a good sword skill, wrestling skill (because swinging that sword is only one of many options in combat!), armory for maintaining armor _or_ acrobatics or some other defensive oriented skill (if swashbuckling), shield skill, and a few other traits like combat reflexes. This is in addition to any skills they may need for other activities, like negotiation for a mercenary that needs to earn a good wage for his sword arm, or fast talk. Perhaps a lore skill for being able to recognize and identify fantasy critters.
So it's really the difference between a vertical and a horizontal levelling system.