To the OP: Yeah, because changing things every damn week has worked so well for the SWG devs so far.... This game's current extremely poor quality is only exceeded by its irrelevance.... No one cares about SWG any more, least of all SOE/LA, when they have shiny new POS games coming out...
That is all.
The changes SWG Devs apply are halfhearted and not tackle the root problem.
Maybe its a massive change again for what i am asking for. But the lack of numbers are massive too.
Wanna try to cure the patient ? Don't fight the pain over and over again , instead fight the things causing the pain. well of course if you wanna see him live...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
To the OP: Yeah, because changing things every damn week has worked so well for the SWG devs so far.... This game's current extremely poor quality is only exceeded by its irrelevance.... No one cares about SWG any more, least of all SOE/LA, when they have shiny new POS games coming out...
That is all.
The changes SWG Devs apply are halfhearted and not tackle the root problem.
Maybe its a massive change again for what i am asking for. But the lack of numbers are massive too.
Wanna try to cure the patient ? Don't fight the pain over and over again , instead fight the things causing the pain. well of course if you wanna see him live...
And you hit it spot on at the end.... LA/SOE does not care anymore. They have moved on. It has been reported that SOE is using the new hire devs to "code" SWG, but really it is only a live test center where the new college grad programmers can fool around with a "live" game while they get experience. And if they screw something up, oh well.... not like the player base won't stay if the game gets more broken....
SWG is the crazy aunt SOE keeps locked in the closet that gets wheeled out once in a while. I really do feel sorry for the people playing now, it truly is "Beta" and is solely being used to train new devs for games that have a future.
I agree alot with what FZR600R said. The mass market of players want to be rewarded for little effort as proven in World of Warcraft.
Galaxies at launch had the right idea and was an amazing experience but I felt it was trying to be too ambitious. If you look back at the earlier patches, the dev team really started to kill the game off with some outrageous changes.
Personally, when Insurance and decay were brought in, the pvp element of the game vanished. The game turned into more of a MMO Chat room. That was the beginning of the end. The quests were uninspiring and had nothing to do with Star Wars, the battlefields remained broken for far too long as the dev team put the whole Galactic war 'on hold'.
The skill based system was and in my personal view, still is the best system I have seen in any MMO game as it allowed players to actually be individuals. There IS a market for complex games, and people WILL play a complex game if done correctly.
Beta saw 500,000 people sign up to Galaxies as excitement levels increased as it came closer to launch. Subs who have probably remained stable had the problems I outlined been dealt with sooner.
With SOE and LucasArts looking to churn out bugged expansions, instead of actually fixing with the current ones, too much focus on buffs, poor quests, no actual new content sent these two in to a panic - especially when World of Warcraft arrived.
I'm not sure if the developers play MMOs but having a huge grind fest to get the uber loot, increase your character level/skill is NOT fun. I have a job, I don't want a second one! MMOs should be engaging and fun and currently that is something lacking in many MMOs to date.
I belive only thing that can bring people, including me, back to SWG is simple... go back to old Skill system, that was best solution for SWG...
I relly loved idea of having one character for almost 2 years, I have been Mayor, Entertainer, and when I wanted fight I changed my entertainer for Bounty Hunter, but still I was the same Mayor of my beloves city Atlantis
I think the reply would be... what MMO's released in North America have had anything like that? *ponders* UO and SWG... and SWG was a more restricted version of UO. Oh and UO and SWG had... Raph Koster. As far as I know what Raph is working on won't be a conventional MMO. So do you really expect a skill based system to show up in a new Star Wars MMO? I mean honestly it seems most developers can't wait to dismantle a skill based game. Then watch it bleed subs. My personal wish is that some developer.. will buy the clue to give up on the Class/level/uber loot based design. Return to a freedom of choice/player economy design.. and settle for the niche (but profit making) subscriber base they will obtain. Almost all the economy, balance and design issues in MMO's today... are the same from game to game. Because.. they keep copying the same design theory that just doesn't work. I'll spare you the rest of that ramble. But.. no I don't expect to see a skill based system show up in a "new" Star Wars MMO. If LEC or anyone they choose to work with were that smart.. we'd have seen classic SWG servers by now..
Would you consider Tabula Rasa as a skilled based system? I played SWG back in the day. I had a pistoleer/bh. I had a bit of fun with it. Would you consider TR as similar when it comes to skills?
I was in TR beta for a long time and no.. its not even close.
UO was a skill based game. SWG is what I liked to call a skill based class system.
That's the reason SWG was more restrictive than UO. Err I should say UO when I played as things changed a lot since then.
TR just isn't even the same concept.. tho it is innovative to a degree in what it does.
The class/level based game that I ever really found interesting was FFXI and I didn't really play it that long. The reason I found it interesting was you could do all jobs on one toon and you could dual class.
There have been skill based games tho.. Saga of Ryzom was.. but its pretty much doa as far as I know.
I was just saying in the US as far as big MMO launches... there have been 2 skill based MMO's (that I remember) and they both had the same designer... Raph Koster.
Which is pretty much why I don't expect to see it anytime soon (skill system). As his current project is something "different" and... well nobody else has ever bothered to do it.
The biggest thing that bothers me is when people say that a classic server couldn't bring back more than some small number like 10,000 subs...
You know if you were talking about EQ2.. I would fully agree. Because as an example.. if you moved on to WoW... you basicly had the same game with different skins.
There is NOTHING on the market that is like SWG pre-cu... and until there is.. they can bring back anyone that really loved the game.
You'd really have to wonder.. as the NGE is "live" longer than Pre-CU was.. or close... and its obviously not bringing people back or holding any kind of subscriber base...
Why... isn't there a classic server...
Trust me.. if there was something out there that was like Pre-CU.. I would be playing it and not coming to this site.. I wouldn't have time.
SWG is dead. No more reason to keep kicking the dead horse.
Lets just hope Bioware don't drop the ball they have been handed.
Fallen Earth looks promising. I'll try this one.
EVE is better then ever. Going strong, with a very bright future direction.
I am so sick of these simple cookie cutter MMO's out.
Will a company other then EVE have the courage to make a complicated huge unforgivving MMO ?
Or are we just going to see more WOW clones.
Am I the only one who hates pvp where people just respawn and run right back? Am I the only one who wants loss/gain in pvp, like the ability to loot your dead enemy in EVE?
I hate how far big buisness has come controlling the MMO market.
I tried the game myself with the trial and I liked it, probably pre-nge was better, but the game is actually fun to play. I learned one thing about this to never trust anybody talking about a game, specially if it has a trial.
I have played SWG off and on during each of the changes from the spring of 2004 until about a month ago. For me, the game was at it's best after the combat upgrade. I was pleased when the process of advancing a skill set was simplified, rather then having to seek out a player to train me. The other improvements I liked were the decreased waiting times for the shuttles, as well as the reduced cool downs during resource gathering.
I never engaged in combat much, as I was a structure architect, but I enjoyed the option of using droids to do the killing for me when necessary. I was disappointed most by not being able to wear any armor I wished, like I was able to in 2004. Remember bone armor?
I do not like the new game enhancements at all, although I did try to cope with it during the numerous times I went back to SWG. The terrain changes were hideous, especially in Mos Eisley, but it was the decrease in performance that frustrated me the most. Ever since the NGE came along, my frame rates have never maintained the steady 20 to 30 rate, regardless of all the tech support recomendations.
In the end, the final nail in the coffin was the performance issue. I wish I could remember the author's name, but I recall a player suggesting that the overlaping types of code written into SWG over the years is the culprit. Whether that's true or not is anyone's guess, but it makes the most sense to me.
SWG was my first MMO and I have yet to find another that is as unique, challenging, and fun. I will miss it.
* These numbers might not be accurate. I'm not saying that SOE games are not in the shape described but there is no real way to confirm those figures as SOE doesn't make that info public
* I wonder what the rest of the industry retention looks like. SWG and EQ are very aged games. Would they have suffered a decline anyway? I would think that would have been the case in any event, the MMO market is very competitive, constantly evolving, and the player base is very small in the west and constantely jumping games. I believe PCGamer put out that the average MMO subscription last under 6 months in an article at one time. I don't think (IMHO) retention is all that long to begin with.
* MMO's do have a life cycle which only seems to last about 2 - 5 years depending (all things being equal, MxO and Vanguard are probably exceptions as they had horrible launches and we will never know how they might have actually performed if they had been launched in a playable state) EQ2 is probably coming to the close of its prime. (not that it had very stable, over the top success, it did already have server merges..over a year or more back if I remember correctly) Any MMO over 5 years (dozens) with the exception of EVE are shells of their prime era.
EDIT
So anyway, I had to stop earlier so please allow me to finish
Needed changes to attract more people? I honestly don't think there is anything that could be done to revive any older MMO. Its never happened. Time and the market have marched on and player expectations have changed since 2003. Whether this game ever had an NGE or not, IMHO it would be roughly in the same position its in today. It was already in decline way before NGE. Throwing an endless stream of expansions never really help an MMO either. Those just pacify or anger the current players and in most games, just serves to spread out an already thinning player base.
I don't think you are going to see much of anything from SWG from now to the end.
SOE has done about all they can to bring in new people, to bring back the Vets, etc... and they don't have much of anything to show for it.
The game is not really going anywhere and I think SOE and LA know that... this game has don't nothing but give SOE and LA bad press and I really think they want it to go away.
Been there done that: Asherons Call,SWG,AOC,D&D,COH,Anarchy Online,DAOC,EVE,Guild Wars,LOTRO,POTBS,WAR,WW2, and Rift
The best thing for the current SWG would be the server populations to just dwindle down to nothing, then die and go away forever and let all other mmorpg's learn the hard lesson from SOE and LA.
Comments
To the OP:
Yeah, because changing things every damn week has worked so well for the SWG devs so far....
This game's current extremely poor quality is only exceeded by its irrelevance....
No one cares about SWG any more, least of all SOE/LA, when they have shiny new POS games coming out...
That is all.
The changes SWG Devs apply are halfhearted and not tackle the root problem.
Maybe its a massive change again for what i am asking for. But the lack of numbers are massive too.
Wanna try to cure the patient ? Don't fight the pain over and over again , instead fight the things causing the pain. well of course if you wanna see him live...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
The changes SWG Devs apply are halfhearted and not tackle the root problem.
Maybe its a massive change again for what i am asking for. But the lack of numbers are massive too.
Wanna try to cure the patient ? Don't fight the pain over and over again , instead fight the things causing the pain. well of course if you wanna see him live...
And you hit it spot on at the end.... LA/SOE does not care anymore. They have moved on. It has been reported that SOE is using the new hire devs to "code" SWG, but really it is only a live test center where the new college grad programmers can fool around with a "live" game while they get experience. And if they screw something up, oh well.... not like the player base won't stay if the game gets more broken....
SWG is the crazy aunt SOE keeps locked in the closet that gets wheeled out once in a while. I really do feel sorry for the people playing now, it truly is "Beta" and is solely being used to train new devs for games that have a future.
And people pay for it. Amazing.....
I agree alot with what FZR600R said. The mass market of players want to be rewarded for little effort as proven in World of Warcraft.
Galaxies at launch had the right idea and was an amazing experience but I felt it was trying to be too ambitious. If you look back at the earlier patches, the dev team really started to kill the game off with some outrageous changes.
Personally, when Insurance and decay were brought in, the pvp element of the game vanished. The game turned into more of a MMO Chat room. That was the beginning of the end. The quests were uninspiring and had nothing to do with Star Wars, the battlefields remained broken for far too long as the dev team put the whole Galactic war 'on hold'.
The skill based system was and in my personal view, still is the best system I have seen in any MMO game as it allowed players to actually be individuals. There IS a market for complex games, and people WILL play a complex game if done correctly.
Beta saw 500,000 people sign up to Galaxies as excitement levels increased as it came closer to launch. Subs who have probably remained stable had the problems I outlined been dealt with sooner.
With SOE and LucasArts looking to churn out bugged expansions, instead of actually fixing with the current ones, too much focus on buffs, poor quests, no actual new content sent these two in to a panic - especially when World of Warcraft arrived.
I'm not sure if the developers play MMOs but having a huge grind fest to get the uber loot, increase your character level/skill is NOT fun. I have a job, I don't want a second one! MMOs should be engaging and fun and currently that is something lacking in many MMOs to date.
get your 7 day FREE sub to SWTOR
http://www.swtor.com/r/7DDKjQ
I belive only thing that can bring people, including me, back to SWG is simple... go back to old Skill system, that was best solution for SWG...
I relly loved idea of having one character for almost 2 years, I have been Mayor, Entertainer, and when I wanted fight I changed my entertainer for Bounty Hunter, but still I was the same Mayor of my beloves city Atlantis
Ehhh... Good old day in SWG... I want them back
Would you consider Tabula Rasa as a skilled based system? I played SWG back in the day. I had a pistoleer/bh. I had a bit of fun with it. Would you consider TR as similar when it comes to skills?
I was in TR beta for a long time and no.. its not even close.
UO was a skill based game. SWG is what I liked to call a skill based class system.
That's the reason SWG was more restrictive than UO. Err I should say UO when I played as things changed a lot since then.
TR just isn't even the same concept.. tho it is innovative to a degree in what it does.
The class/level based game that I ever really found interesting was FFXI and I didn't really play it that long. The reason I found it interesting was you could do all jobs on one toon and you could dual class.
There have been skill based games tho.. Saga of Ryzom was.. but its pretty much doa as far as I know.
I was just saying in the US as far as big MMO launches... there have been 2 skill based MMO's (that I remember) and they both had the same designer... Raph Koster.
Which is pretty much why I don't expect to see it anytime soon (skill system). As his current project is something "different" and... well nobody else has ever bothered to do it.
The biggest thing that bothers me is when people say that a classic server couldn't bring back more than some small number like 10,000 subs...
You know if you were talking about EQ2.. I would fully agree. Because as an example.. if you moved on to WoW... you basicly had the same game with different skins.
There is NOTHING on the market that is like SWG pre-cu... and until there is.. they can bring back anyone that really loved the game.
You'd really have to wonder.. as the NGE is "live" longer than Pre-CU was.. or close... and its obviously not bringing people back or holding any kind of subscriber base...
Why... isn't there a classic server...
Trust me.. if there was something out there that was like Pre-CU.. I would be playing it and not coming to this site.. I wouldn't have time.
SWG is dead. No more reason to keep kicking the dead horse.
Lets just hope Bioware don't drop the ball they have been handed.
Fallen Earth looks promising. I'll try this one.
EVE is better then ever. Going strong, with a very bright future direction.
I am so sick of these simple cookie cutter MMO's out.
Will a company other then EVE have the courage to make a complicated huge unforgivving MMO ?
Or are we just going to see more WOW clones.
Am I the only one who hates pvp where people just respawn and run right back? Am I the only one who wants loss/gain in pvp, like the ability to loot your dead enemy in EVE?
I hate how far big buisness has come controlling the MMO market.
SHOHADAKU
I tried the game myself with the trial and I liked it, probably pre-nge was better, but the game is actually fun to play. I learned one thing about this to never trust anybody talking about a game, specially if it has a trial.
I have played SWG off and on during each of the changes from the spring of 2004 until about a month ago. For me, the game was at it's best after the combat upgrade. I was pleased when the process of advancing a skill set was simplified, rather then having to seek out a player to train me. The other improvements I liked were the decreased waiting times for the shuttles, as well as the reduced cool downs during resource gathering.
I never engaged in combat much, as I was a structure architect, but I enjoyed the option of using droids to do the killing for me when necessary. I was disappointed most by not being able to wear any armor I wished, like I was able to in 2004. Remember bone armor?
I do not like the new game enhancements at all, although I did try to cope with it during the numerous times I went back to SWG. The terrain changes were hideous, especially in Mos Eisley, but it was the decrease in performance that frustrated me the most. Ever since the NGE came along, my frame rates have never maintained the steady 20 to 30 rate, regardless of all the tech support recomendations.
In the end, the final nail in the coffin was the performance issue. I wish I could remember the author's name, but I recall a player suggesting that the overlaping types of code written into SWG over the years is the culprit. Whether that's true or not is anyone's guess, but it makes the most sense to me.
SWG was my first MMO and I have yet to find another that is as unique, challenging, and fun. I will miss it.
Those are some very interesting numbers.
I just wanted to point a few things out though.
* These numbers might not be accurate. I'm not saying that SOE games are not in the shape described but there is no real way to confirm those figures as SOE doesn't make that info public
* I wonder what the rest of the industry retention looks like. SWG and EQ are very aged games. Would they have suffered a decline anyway? I would think that would have been the case in any event, the MMO market is very competitive, constantly evolving, and the player base is very small in the west and constantely jumping games. I believe PCGamer put out that the average MMO subscription last under 6 months in an article at one time. I don't think (IMHO) retention is all that long to begin with.
* MMO's do have a life cycle which only seems to last about 2 - 5 years depending (all things being equal, MxO and Vanguard are probably exceptions as they had horrible launches and we will never know how they might have actually performed if they had been launched in a playable state) EQ2 is probably coming to the close of its prime. (not that it had very stable, over the top success, it did already have server merges..over a year or more back if I remember correctly) Any MMO over 5 years (dozens) with the exception of EVE are shells of their prime era.
EDIT
So anyway, I had to stop earlier so please allow me to finish
Needed changes to attract more people? I honestly don't think there is anything that could be done to revive any older MMO. Its never happened. Time and the market have marched on and player expectations have changed since 2003. Whether this game ever had an NGE or not, IMHO it would be roughly in the same position its in today. It was already in decline way before NGE. Throwing an endless stream of expansions never really help an MMO either. Those just pacify or anger the current players and in most games, just serves to spread out an already thinning player base.
I don't think you are going to see much of anything from SWG from now to the end.
SOE has done about all they can to bring in new people, to bring back the Vets, etc... and they don't have much of anything to show for it.
The game is not really going anywhere and I think SOE and LA know that... this game has don't nothing but give SOE and LA bad press and I really think they want it to go away.
Been there done that:
Asherons Call,SWG,AOC,D&D,COH,Anarchy Online,DAOC,EVE,Guild Wars,LOTRO,POTBS,WAR,WW2, and Rift
The best thing for the current SWG would be the server populations to just dwindle down to nothing, then die and go away forever and let all other mmorpg's learn the hard lesson from SOE and LA.
Eve-Online, EQ2, DnL, SWG (Dead), Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, EQ, DAoC, Planet Side, WoW, LOTR, Tabula Rasa.