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AoC to be RPG?
Deioth
Member UncommonPosts: 64
Can I expect AoC to actually be a MMORPG or is it just going to be more of the same? At least it's trying to evolve the genre, though, and I like the mature aspects, but...
I just don't want to invest time and money into another MMO that completely neglects the RPG part.
I haven't been following this game or any new MMO because I wasn't sure when I'd be able to land a computer able to play anything newer than Oblivion or F.E.A.R. on more than 10 FPS. However, Christmass is on its way... So, to anyone following the game, what's it look like? Can we expect to see an actual MMORPG in this mess of grind fests and story-less schlop?
Comments
I expect it to be quite good on the story part, players in theory should be quite active too. Performance might f it all up though as it will be the biggest issue IMHO.
Performance? I'm guessing the specs to play? Or the gameplay? Both?
And yeah, I am sure there would be plenty of non-roleplayers wanting to play, and especially people who'd rather grief the RPers for playing the game their way than actually play it. If RPers are at least the majority, things would be at worst tolerable. I was fortunate enough to pick a RP server that had an obvious minority of RPers when I played WoW, and we all know how much BLizzard gives a damn about roleplay and story in that game.
Yeah, AoC will have ALOT of story and roleplay elements to it. Probably more than most other games do. However, the system specs are most likely going to be pretty intensive at this rate.
I'm not going to suggest how it'll all be, but part of the reason of the first 20 levels being set up the way that they are, is to tell a story, and essentially give you a place in that story. That series of quests will continue thru the entire game, and that's about as much story as I'd expect a developer to be able to give you.
From what I've seen, AoC will have the most "RPG" out of any MMO to date.
I'll answer the question when you define 'Roleplaying' to me.
Computer RPG's (single player) in the past have usually included character development in skills/levels, fairly rigid 'storyline' plot and items you collect for better bonuses. It's almost like an adventure game, but you get worse puzzles and there's fights thrown in.
PnP roleplaying is somewhat different. It can be just like that, but then the GM is often to blame (railroaded plots and straight-up dungeon crawls, anyone?).
Online roleplaying at its best, for instance on some NWN and NWN2 persistant world servers, can be a lot better, mainly because they're so customizable anyone can find the mix of 'content' and 'player interaction' they want.
MMO's have traditionally gone the 'fixed content-upgradable equipment'-path, save for a few revolutionary systems (Ultima Online, EVE Online) and experiments.
So, what do you mean by 'roleplaying'?
Like the above, in what sense? Overall, I'd say yes, but I would also suggest you have a look for yourself and do a bit of research.
RPG like in the FF series, meaningful plotlines and quests, etc:
Everything we've seen so far indicates an extremely rich storyline in all or almost all aspects. Even accounting for company PR bullshit, this is very encouraging, particularly since Funcom is already at least semi famous for this aspect of their games. Hell, Dreamfall was/is almost more of an interactive animated movie with a damn good story than an actual game. Their MMO, Anarchy Online, was also steeped in it, from the quests to item descriptions.
RPG in terms of character ability development:
Between the crafting system and extremely intricate skill trees, whether or not you would consider its systems truly different from the MMO masses in this sense, it still is definitely a cut above.
Roleplaying as in terms of player actions and community:
This one is a wee bit tough to predict for some odd reason. However, there are at least two positive factors in this sense. One, dedicated Roleplaying servers have been confirmed from launch, and multiple prelaunch guilds are already gunning for em (In the case of the HA, more than a dozen RP guilds are looking to join the same server together). Two, Funcom has stated their intention to enforce a more stringent set of rules to protect RP on said servers. To corroborate this second point, I would like to point out that FC uses a volunteer GM team to supplement their regular paid GMs who wield the ultimate authority. Because of it, FC is able to field a CS task force of several hundred men and women, not just a few dozen. The rest of course will be a matter of a bit of luck, and of course the players themselves.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
For a MMORPG, this is what I'd expect and what I look for:
1. A storyline to follow and participate in that becomes the primary focus of the game, the game world, and all you interact with.
2. A reason to participate in said storyline that does not involve loot or combat, but instead to watch and help it unfold.
3. The story and plot evolves and changes as the GMs guide it along with the players' participation, so things you do (or don't do) could effect the end outcomes.
4. Through the primary "story" you develop your character(s). The game world itself is designed such that your character(s) have purpose and are more than just another name (no matter how well it may be known for one thing or another, every other MMO I've played you're just a name, i.e. first people to kill a raid boss in Everquest, EVERYONE else is going to kill it eventually anyways so your accomplishment means practically nothing except bragging rights and no one will remember your name after you quit except a handful in your guild)
5. Many accomplishments are reachable by a limited amount of people with many of these accomplishments being tied into the evolution of the storyline, often through world-wide "events" that last a limited amount of time or reach an "end point" to open up new content. (Only MMO i've EVER played that did this was Nexus The Kingdom of the Winds, oddly enough the oldest in existence and yes it's older than Ultima Online if you include its origins in Korea)
6. Your character(s) can reach levels of "power" or influence such that they can play directly into the outcome of events and how they play out.
In short, I come for the game and stay for the story. I came for WoW's game, I left because there WAS no story. I want to at least feel like my participation means something, and I want to at least feel like I can achieve something more than anyone else and something most can only dream of. Defeating a raid boss means nothing because every other nameless max level is going to kill it eventually. But, to defeat it and change the course of the game world and its history? or fail and turn it the other direction? THAT is a worthy accomplishment.
Seriously... I really really wish Nexus had a solid and dedicated team backing it, it'd be the perfect MMORPG for me, but sadly time and conflicting GM ideals and priorities has screwed that game up pretty bad, but its core and values still remain. But, until the day comes it gets the help it needs, I'm looking for other MMORPG's, but all of them are just worlds without substance. They're all generic. None of them offer anything new. None of them offer a REASON to play.
I hope I've cleared things up. Sounds so far like Conan might actually give a shit about the RPG part.
1.) Yes
2.) Partial yes, there's bound to be loot/fighting incentives for a good portion of the gameplay, but the emphasis appears to be on the story.
3.) Partial yes, portions of the story cannot change, one would need about twice the developers they have now working nonstop after launch to keep everything in the game changing. However, Funcom's GMs will be moving the overarching storyline along, with planned events ranging from sweeping battle that can and will change the map to simple little subplots. I mentioned Anarchy Online before, have a look at some of the things Their events department has done there.
4.) maybe, maybe not. This would be difficult as all hell to pull off at all, much less to do it well. A single player game its possible, but... In any case, we haven't heard anything conclusive about this.
5.) Yes, except probably not "many" by any reasonable definition.
6.) unknown. There is a reputation system in place that affects how other NPCs react to you that depends on your past behavior from crimes to various quest endings, and its been mentioned that this can play into later quests and their outcomes, but to what extent, I don't know.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Hmm, based on your post Im not sure what you want. but it sounds like you are more of a PVE kinda guy. If so, Neither AoC nor WAR (the 2 biggest releases) would be a perfect fit. Both will have significant PvP aspects. However, I wager you will like AoC more than WAR. You may also want to look at Aion and Spellborne as posibile candidates for your MMORPG dollar
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Aelfinn: I perhaps could have written all of that a little clearer, but I hope you understand what I would like to see. I just want the story to be the core of the game. PvE and PVP and etc. are what surrounds it and helps it play out. Roleplay and roleplayed decisions would further the story along, as well. The grind and rush for loot should be the icing on the cake, so to speak. When it's the core of the game, the game has no substance (and for that matter, usually a horrible community) and bores me within a month, if it even takes that long. I need something to keep me wanting to play because I can endlessly improve my "avatar" in plenty of SP games and free MMOs, so why pay for some schlop like WoW when all it is is a loot game?
I've also played AO. I stopped at one point and them came back to try Shadowlands and realized how far things went. Everything seemed much more story driven, but as that came out, the story was just an excuse for the loot. Maybe I didn't play it enough, but it did a great job at making me really feel like an Omni-Tek citizen when I initially played. As I slummed my way through the Shadowlands, I didn't feel like anything, just someone soloing or to take up a spot in a fucking Heckler team, or whatever those dumb rock things were called. It felt like a loot grind. And despite loving the meta-physicist, it wasn't enough to keep me interested (not to mention symbiotes and most every SL equip felt ungodly powerful and made things too easy, especially back on Rubi-Ka)
Czzare: I love PvE, PvP, crafting (until I usually discover how worthless it is), roleplay, exploring, I love most everything. The problem is that no amount of PvE, PvP, good crafting, etc. will keep me interested nor draw me in when there's nothing to get out of it. I grew up on games, particularly RPGs, rich in story and involvement. Even when the ever present combat would become monotonous, it would remain quite entertaining because the reward was more story, more involved and complex combat, and just so much more to see and explore. I expect similar from my MMORPGs. If there's no reason for me to stay, I MIGHT play until the main Pv? focus just becomes boring or I might leave sooner. I quit WoW because I discovered there was no story (the biggest reason I bought it was to be part of what we were left with after WCIII and TFT, aside from playing a Tauren) and after reaching level 60, NOTHING was fun anymore, and I'll leave my reasons at that lest I rant for 50 posts.
At this risk of this coming out wrong, I'll again try to very simply convey my point.
I dont think that many MMORPG's do much with the RPG part of a game, what they do is create a persistent world, and give you, the player, the freedom to tell your own story. This is NOT the linear world of single player RPG's, that exist solely to tell a story. That is a world created to make you a part of a story. To me, an MMO is a world created for you to write your own story.
Under that guiding principle, I think the folks at Funcom have taken the steps, and put things in, to let you start your character and thru early stages of the game, make you feel a part of the underlying story there. You'll be persuing that story while you level, among other things. That's more than most MMO's ever do.
Now will we see GM run events? Probably, but I have no idea how many. Maybe AO vet's could give us a better idea.
I honestly dont think the genre of MMORPG's is for you, if you are looking to have your hand held thru the story path. (and that's not a bad thing, there are definitely times that I want that myself) I think if anything, it's a shortcoming from the developers of MMO's, that they often leave RPG out....or you could look at it as a feature, that they let the player deterimine that.
If I could write my own story, I wouldn't have to forcefully work around hard coded obstacles. If I could write my own story, it would easily be supplemented by activities, items, events, and people in game that aren't arbitrary to it. If I did write my own story, I wouldn't be made fun of and ignored by the majority of players.
I don't want SP linearity in a MMORPG, certainly not. However, I AM very sick and tired of the complete lack of effort to supplement, encourage, and reward roleplay. No MMORPGs do that, ever. What story is there is just background, nothing cared about by most of the players. It's easier to immerse yourself in a SP RPG, at least then you don't have "lol" and real life chatter and "WoW sucks/rules" or fucking forbid "stfu rp is stupid" on the god damn roleplaying server to worry about and the characters you interact with are actually characters and not just some fat 30 year old bachelor living in his parents' basement or 13 year old dweeb trying to act cool and look important by sounding like a retard with a keyboard (i.e., l337 sp34k).
Is it so much to ask for a MMORPG that at least TRIES to be creative and plot focused and not loot and grind focused?
And Baikal... www.nexustk.com -- If this game had the manpower to change, update, and support what it needs and in reasonable normal intervals, I'd be back in a heart beat, but sadly the only MMO I've ever played worthy of attaching RPG to it has gone too far downhill over the years and has always suffered from little manpower, and I've played on and off since retail in 1998.
From the character development perspective, it is nothing like a real RPG. It gives you no choice what so ever.
Hmm so RPG = Role Play Game;
For example I pick my race as Stygian and my class as say Necromancer, I design my character in line with race specifics (dark, moody looking, maybe not as muscular as a Cimmerian)
I get into game and the choice that the NPC's present to me when doing a quest have a result of where I came from (Stygia) also its been said that NPC's react to what you say to them (multiple choice questions and answers) with each one giving a different meaning. Like if I was rude to an NPC he will remember that and act accordingly (has been said before)
So as I advance my character throughout the game, I have a choice to be in essence, more darker than a 'good' guy (which is possible)
So as I play and gain levels certain attributes are done per level for me, and I have quite a choice of specific feat paths to go down (with the ability to respec)
And as my character develops that is nothing like an RPG ?
I think it is, my choices from a PvE perspective have a direct impact on choices available to me if I want to develop my character further into the game.
Flip that on its head, and factor in when we talk about the day and night cycle too. At night quite possibly you might find NPC's react to you differently, again in a different way, totally in correlation to
A. how I behave towards them
B. The fact the surroundings have changed (less people around at night)
and
C. The actual area that I am in.
So as you can imagine there is plenty of scope to actually 'Role Play' your character in game, not only from an environment and circumstance point of view, but also personally - 'how' or 'what' do I want to do and/or 'be' in the game. Its known for sure in the Lore that Cimmerian's have distaste for Stygian's, its not unreasonable to expect NPC's to treat you any different based on where your from too (plus its been hinted on)
So when you put all this together, coupled with specific character development paths via 'feats' obtained, and quite possibly if your playing on an RP server type, again quite possible to be different still with server rule sets, what do you get?
More choice than a 1kg bag of 'Pick and Mix' candy.
EDIT **
Want to take it further? depending on your tastes, there are plenty of RP guilds out there, to play the game 'en mass'. Advance your character with choice and decent development in a guild, in a game that will take you to all 4 corners of the map.
Now because the game is open to ALL races, Stygians with actually pass thru Cimmeria, now this is something you wont find in a faction based game, generally designed to keep races or sides apart. AoC offers interaction everywhere, not just on a battlefield, or in one area thats limiting me to explore the whole game.
Funcom are widely known to be one of the best 'Storytellers' now you have in AoC an opportunity to change the way its played out based on your actions and where you come from.
Welcome to your destiny quest. The series of events are your own doing and not some forced group with people you don't know doing parts of a quest faster than you would like, just because of your play speed.
Total control over your actions, goes hand in hand with character development from an RP perspective, just like a paper RP game, but with these awesome graphics, more realistic on lots of different levels.
Avery, you know very well, what I mean, and you also know I am a huge fan of the game, I'm just taking it very hardly, that the choices (technically) in character advancement are scarse. Feat trees? Sounds like a bad joke. And it is even said they won't have an impact that great ... meaning you chose a class, and that's kind of it with the choices.
Well, to be honest, I think it's just agree to disagree here, because I tend to feel that the design of most MMORPG's is simply to put the tools into the end users hand, and let them write their own story in that game world. It's certainly not a linear world. Now, I will agree with you that it does take the RPG part and make you work for it, as opposed to just placing you into it, and I'm not really sure that is a good thing.
You asked what could be taken as a rhetorical question, about "Is it so much to ask for a MMORPG that at least TRIES to be creative and plot focused and not loot and grind focused?" I'd answer that that it's not too much to ask, but you would be foolish to expect that, for several reasons, ranging from commercial viability, to the difficulty of telling a different story to thousands of people at the same time. That's why you get the same story out of most single player RPG's, and the online version let you be a part of a larger story, not the central character.
When you get right down to it, I understand your point, and agree with most of it. Most MMORPG's make it challenging to get to the RPG part, which brings me full circle to what I said originally. Age of Conan by doing the singleplayer portion of the "tutorial" area places you into a story. What you learn there gives some meaning to the rest of the game, and you'll follow that series of quests, until probably level 80. (I dont know that for fact, but from what we've seen/read, it's the epic story and you advance it as you level.) This wont be 100% comprehensive, it wont explain everything, but for me at least, it does give meaning and added life to my character.
I know it's not perfect, but one of the best features I've found in an MMO of late, is the SWG feature that let's you create your own quests. For me, that's just incredible, the ability to add something of my own creation to a persistent world, and use that to help tell a story.
I sincerly hope you do find what you are lookin' for, even if I think it'll be hard to find. I also think, like I've said, that AoC is taking a step in that direction, even if it's a small one, so keep an eye on it, and see where it goes. Whatever the case, best of luck!
Cheers.
Hmm, I'd think that the best way to describe what I really would want to see to give you a better idea would be to describe Nexus itself, but that'd take hours and many posts. I'll summarize as best I can in a few major points:
1. The most obvious is the game's deep history and the involvement players have taken in it. Events involving various "event" characters have been the stepping stones towards new and improved content in the game and move along numerous storylines around the main game. Most recently, the pirates had invaded again, and this time the Kingdom of Han joined the three currently "playable" in game. Players could choose to help Han or help Bluestone, the leader of the pirates, in the war between the pirates and Han. THe pirates had been kidnapping the mundane helpers (NPCs) of the clans of the kingdoms as ransom for the clan swords held by the primogens for their own purposes. The story played out, with players able to assist or fight against the pirates as they invaded the clans' halls (their homes, basically) until the event neared its climax and the full "event cave" opened up. It ended with a note from the Han leader saying the pirates were defeated after a long chase over seas, and by bad weather for that matter heh. What ultimately this will lead to (Han won because more players joined that side) has yet to be seen.
2. Character accomplishments are recorded in a character legend others can read. Many things, especially official events (ones introduced by the GMs) provide legend marks. Event marks are attainable only for the duration of the event itself, making them unique and something to cherish.
3. Clans are an accomplishment and often an assistance to official events (players often get together to stage "unnoficial" events, meaning no legend marks or event cave, that players can participate in). They require a minimum of 6 months trial period and 100 members to become "official" among other duties and objectives and are guided along and evaluated by other clans and the royalty of the kingdom the clan is petitioning to become official in. Official status provides clan board, clan hall, clan helm, and numerous other advantages.
4. The most unique aspect of Nexus, I believe, are the subpaths. You can become a warrior, mage, rogue, or poet (healer basically) at level 5, and from level 50 and onward to 99 (and the ranks attainable from there) you can join fully player controlled subpaths of your particular path. They all have their own unique roleplay, history, and contribution to the game world. For example, my mage was a diviner when I played, and diviners at times are given premonitions and auguries and clairvoyence, etc., that could pertain to upcoming events of importance. I had one myself at one point. Another example, my warrior from last I played was a barbarian, and they and the kingdoms have often been at odd ends with each other, especially other tribes not in direct relation with the subpath itself (There is a loooong history involving the Sonhi and their brother leaders, KaMing and KaKhan) that often have bolstered roleplay during official events and allowed for players to create unnofficial events themselves for all to join in.
5. In the subpaths themselves, there are certain quests and community services they offer for those interested that help you to establish your character, make them unique, and bolster their roleplay. For example, non-barbarians can partake in wilderness training from a barbarian guide through a series of roleplaying, enhancing their experience, their character, and resulting in a legend mark. Diviners offer I Ching readings. Shaman can marry a man and a woman through spiritual bond and roleplay ass opposed to using the NPC marriage options as well as many other spiritual quests and the like. Barbarians, likewise, offer a roleplay option for blood brother/sister (think a non-homosexual same sex coupling). Chonguns offer classes in the art of war. And this is but a small fraction of it all.
I hope I've given you an idea of what I want. I do NOT want to be FORCED to find roleplay, or come up with something that has to go around hard coded features (language in WoW for example). I do not want to struggle to find opportunities to enjoy it. I do not want to feel like it's absolutely pointless to bother. I want there to be options, support, and reason to roleplay provided by the game itself for players to immerse themselves in. No MMO out there does that that I have seen except for Nexus. They just exist, and the only real thing of worth to do is grind for levels and loot or PVP endlessly. Nexus never required that. There are some who have played for years without gaining a single experience point through hunting or attacked one other player because of the roleplayability Nexus provides through its many options and its story. I just wish the game hasn't gone so far downhill as it has...
There's a big mess of problems that make it hard to enjoy the roleplay there anymore, a good part of it being the uncooperative community that has slowly become infested by power hunters and PVPers who don't care about the game world itself.
Well, I'll tell ya, I'll definitely take a look at Nexus, you got me interested in what they have to offer! Thank you for taking the time to type all that out, it is appreciated!
I'm sure you could really enjoy it since you've never played it before, though I don't know how well the new novice area works out. I've heard good and bad things, and one big issue I can see is that you require to register in order to leave Tangun, the newb area. It's a very restricted world, sadly, not quite enough to see what Nexus has to offer from what I heard.
It's worth taking the time though to read up on it, and maybe take a spin and see how it plays out. Ultimately I know I'll be playing AoC upon release. It's just nice to see how other games take a stance on a subject, like the RPG part, and how they offer solutions! Again, my thanks to you!
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Heh, sure thing
The rest can be written of as personal perspective/interpretation/opinion, but this stuck out for me.
3. The story and plot evolves and changes as the GMs guide it along with the players' participation, so things you do (or don't do) could effect the end outcomes.
- I have seen no evidence of this. I guarantee that something this revolutionary in an MMO game would not have been kept secret. So I'm positive that this is going to be a no.
The above is not a revolutionary game mechanic, hell, I participated in precisely such an event just last month in Anarchy Online, and Funcom did state on multiple occaisions that they'd be doing the same sort of thing in AoC. The event I participated in was small beans, but here's a better example. GMs first staged a number of kidnapping scenes in major cities. Then acting as a communication from the terrorist group responsible, contacted the leaders of the Clans (player leaders of influential guilds who roleplayed as part of a council.) Based on their response to demands, several small bodies were found floating in the river the next day. Not long afterwards, GMs led a large party of volunteer players through the mockup headquarters of the terrorist group (a dungeon converted for use), fighting other GMs and spawned mobs along the way. It came down to a one on one duel between a player and a GM controlled boss, she won and succeeded in rescuing the still living children.
That was simply a story writeup in the end, but player decisions also have influenced major parts of the game, such as the capture and occupation of a particular city by another faction.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Wow, makes me wish I still played AO...
Looks like I'm gonna be a Conan guy. I trust Funcom can really pull off some great stuff. I just hope they've learned a lot about the mistakes made in AO, like making expansions that overpower everyone and break what balance they managed to make prior to its release, or turning the story into an excuse to make a loot game.